This is a serious problem.

[Rakosta_Kai]

23 minutes ago, Lord-Taco-the-Great said:

Just to be clear, this thread has nothing to do with the bot whatsoever, this is solely about chat mods. I dont want this to get off topic.

Well...It does and it doesn't.

That video suggests that it was our chat mods that lobbied to get such an incredibly common word, whose use would have required some measure of objective discretion and judgement, to be automated instead.

That said, I do understand where you are coming from and will endeavor to keep from de-railing things further.

My apologies.

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

4 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Actually, wasn't Twitch one of the subjects. I added that for good measure. Also, since there is no other place to discuss such things, might as well do it here where people are again whining about not being able to use a hate term.

 

Does that bother you? Why?

Look man, twitch isnt an issue here. The reason I want discussion of that word off the thread, is because it has nothing to do with what we were talking about. We were talking about a different thing that happened, nothing about the chat filter. I'm trying to do my best to reign this in while the mods arent here. We've been having a fairly peaceful and constructive discussion besides going off topic back there.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Lord-Taco-the-Great
Fixed grammar

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

Well...It does and it doesn't.

That video suggests that it was our chat mods that lobbied to get such an incredibly common word, whose use would have required some measure of objective discretion and judgement, to be automated instead.

That said, I do understand where you are coming from and will endeavor to keep from de-railing things further.

My apologies.

It's fine. I see your point, however talking about that stuff has a tendency to get threads locked, which I am trying to avoid so we can get some constructive discussion going.

[Eldnacpeek]

4 hours ago, Korusagi said:

Back on track then.

And because of that, we expect they should act responsibly and impartial. No excuse.

If they ever feel like being too stressed for this job, resign the position, simple as that. It's not like they are being paid for this after all.... right?

The video also showed us two simple guys, one kicked from his position for a twitter post, and the other completely untouched despite his hate comments on twitter too. So, the only thing I can think about this is: a) DE is too busy to deal with it or b) They actually support this views.

I like to think it's just "a)", because being naive brings me hope.

Great quote from one of the (I can't believe I'm referring to this) reddit posts from a mod:

"...but we should also keep our own personal feelings and opinions out of moderation decisions as much as possible. I'd gladly trade being approachable for being as unbiased as possible."

4 hours ago, Carnage2K4 said:

Petition to have the 5 mods in question removed then I guess, because hypocrisy from DE staff is off the chart.

Let's not go down that route, it's uncomfortably close to witch hunting. DE should say something on the matter here that isn't repeating their previous statement. The inconsistent standard all mods and players are held to is very concerning.

Edited June 1, 2018 by LazerSkink

[Crucafix]

2 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Actually, wasn't Twitch one of the subjects. I added that for good measure. Also, since there is no other place to discuss such things, might as well do it here where people are again whining about not being able to use a hate term.

 

Does that bother you? Why?

This very specific thread isn't about the hate term; It's about the way how the moderator handled the censorship towards these particular term (and some other thing but me in particular is troubled by this specific issue. )
You want to ban those term? Sure. I disagree, but I won't complain. Your world, your rules. But what we're asking here if you're going to put some set of rules, at least make it clear enough. We don't know what are the list of those banned words, and some people might be oblivious to those rules. Is one week insta-ban to the offender is justifiable if the said offender don't know if the said word is considered offensive here? Some people might just throwing some harmless banter towards one another without bearing any ill-meaning towards their chatting partner, and a warning might be enough for one time offense. If they repeated it, sure. Go ahead, ban them. But a warning would be nice.

[Crucafix]

Can I point out something?

I used to play this game called "Adventure Quest World" a lot back then in 2008-2009. Like any other games, they put censorship towards certain words. And I think they handled it better than DE. If you say some particular offensive word, you won't be able to send the chat and you'd get instantly muted for around 10 minutes. If you repeated the offense in short time, you'd get muted for a longer time.

I think this is even more effective than this insta-ban method. It kept your chat clean, while causing little discomfort to those who are oblivious to the said words.

[Gokulkp360]

3 minutes ago, Crucafix said:

Can I point out something?

I used to play this game called "Adventure Quest World" a lot back then in 2008-2009. Like any other games, they put censorship towards certain words. And I think they handled it better than DE. If you say some particular offensive word, you won't be able to send the chat and you'd get instantly muted for around 10 minutes. If you repeated the offense in short time, you'd get muted for a longer time.

I think this is even more effective than this insta-ban method. It kept your chat clean, while causing little discomfort to those who are oblivious to the said words.

DE has this too  but if u get caught by a moderator who has been dealing with people lyin to get out unscathed ..well he gonnna ban u 

[Dark_RRiderr]

Did anyone actually get to the point what the Community wants, what DE wants, what the Moderators want and made a list?

This topic is 18 pages long, there should be enouth points of all "sides" together now to see what each "side" wants from each other. Even if its sad to really speak of different sides if we are supposed to be here for the same reasons, enjoying the game, making it or playing it.

Maybe a little bit like this (If i get this right, and i surely dont speak for all and there is surely more to add as well):

Community (Players): -Dont want a word filter that kicks or bans people for just saying a "swear word" that is NOT directed towards a single person (Then again you cant go inside a chat and start insulting a certein group of people like for their race, or like for their religion ect, having that in mind of course)

Moderators: -Want a filter for people insulting others so they dont need to kick them over and over again themselves, and also if they arent present. (Just shouldnt go to far as to leading to a bot censorship where in the future every swear word leads to beeing kicked or banned i could imagine. Since this surely wouldnt be in the interrest of the community, which is their job to act in DEs and the communitys interrests for sure)

DE: -Surely want the community to dont feel unconfortable in region chat and doesnt want players harrasing/insulting other players so deeply its getting below the belt. (At the same time for sure, its also not in their interrest to have that much censorship that players feel unconfortable for just saying a swear word and beeing kicked)

Now the question would be how to achieve a result out of what all 3 sides want that is acceptable to all of them. For example drawing a line where it enouth with the swear words, and where swear words are even insulting that much that that person should take a short outtime from chat because he clearly goes to far.

Saying "S#&$" or "#*!%" and the likes in chat is surely (and i make a bet all 3 sides would agree on this) accepted and tolerated so far and should never lead to a chat kick alone. Spamming these words over and over and gets you kicked? Well of course, was he kicked because the swear words? No, because he spammed.

"#*!% you" to another player is clearly an insult, even if some say that for fun as friends to each other as an answer to a question. Here comes the point where the line needs to be drawn, should a bot or moderator kick that person for this direct insult? Maybe not, maybe yes? Controversial some might agree, some might not. What all can agree on is that if it escalates and both dont stop insulting each other "for fun" or whatever reasons, then yeah, this is a kick reason because that doesnt belong in region chat, thats a "private conversation" they can have legally... in Private messages. So yeah, another thing im sure all 3 sides can agree on.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This all above here, is just an example, in short what i mean with it is, this wont lead anywhere if all sides dont focus on what we ALL can agree on instead of what maybe just their side can agree on. Its about time that there are concrete points made about where the line is drawn and when everyone can agree on if an insult goes to far, swear word, or other behaviour, and that NO matter if "normal player", if moderator or whatever.

So far most i see is just pointing out what is wrong, but no attempt on how to exactly fix this in the future and prevent this problem from still existing.

Because i for my part would prefer DE working on Warframe, not working on a dispute between its community and the moderators (which are still also part of the community, even if some players dont got that feeling right now about some)

I do understand the concern of everyone about censorship ingame, i personally cant stand censorship at all (just recently in tv was the best example as i was .... "not happy" about it how much was cut out one of the movies i liked to see....) and censoring people is even worse of course.

Even had a personal beef on one moderator myself a good while ago and kept a closer eye on that moderator if said moderator would ever go over the top actually kicking someone for a NOT Legit reason. In the moment i would have actually recorded that i would have pretty fast collected more and more evidence about that moderator and making sure DE directly would know about it. Have to admit so far except for that one day it appeared to me this moderator was with hidden messages threatening to kick me, (at least thats what i interpreted it as) i didnt saw anything like that anymore or it would be reported. Dont forget they are humen after all as well, they can have a bad day be pissed off of course, of course they also should stay proffessional and dont get insultive as well (as much as that would surely be tempting if you would have a bad day and someone insults you first...) Had a conversation with that moderator and figured out they are also humen after all and can be good people. (Yeah just imagine that, no machines or aliens 🙂 )

Problem i often had was that very often the people i secretly asked why they were banned didnt had any evidence about what they really actually said to get banned. And the moderators and DE staff because of privacy reasons cant give out that information to see for a "Normal user" understandably and clearly as well. So its hard to say if really ALL of this complains are like the ones presented in the video on this threat.

Dont get me wrong, i dont protect the moderators, nor do i protect the people beeing kicked/banned. I just say, not all of them are bad or good, not the players, not the moderators. Players can have a bad day saying things out they normally wouldnt say, and moderators as well.

 

So instead of only complaining / informing what is the problem, its time to fix it with concrete points on HOW to fix it guys.

I might not even follow up this topic anymore.

Because im smarter then that, you know why? Because i will do what this game, and this community was created for, its called:

Play the game, forget about the silly reality with silly things happening all over us in real life

And enjoy the world DE has created for us

 

.... and if someone really pissed me off, i just insult him back one time and block his ass! (No im no angel either, dont be like me, but not all what i said is bad, and not all was good)

Just hope people wake up and realize after this long as #*!%ing unessacary long message here what my meaning of said message is.

 

See you on the battlefield in the origin system, Tennos

[-.SP.-G43riel]

10 minutes ago, Dark_RRiderr said:

I might not even follow up this topic anymore.

Because im smarter then that, you know why? Because i will do what this game, and this community was created for, its called:

Play the game, forget about the silly reality with silly things happening all over us in real life

And enjoy the world DE has created for us

great way to deal with problems, turn a blind eye because it still didnt affect you 10/10

[Beartornado]

31 minutes ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

great way to deal with problems, turn a blind eye because it still didnt affect you 10/10

It's because of the video, because of the opening mess of this thread. You're trying to salvage something that doesn't deserve to be salvaged, you don't have to prop your actual issue up with someone else's broken mess.

[Valiant]

So I've watched the video and got an idea of what's going on, I think. I generally thought this before when I had browsed a few of the comments prior to watching the video in full...

I find it hard to believe that a person - volunteer or not - would not get punished (having their status/privileges removed, but not banned unless in-game ofc) for rather inappropriate comments they make outside of the game itself. And that is simply due to said people always representing the game or whatever they are part of. That is part of the price you pay.

Common sense dictates they go hand in hand and they should always go hand in hand if you're in some sort of moderating role.

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Valiant

[Cibyllae]

1 hour ago, Dark_RRiderr said:

Community (Players): -Dont want a word filter that kicks or bans people for just saying a "swear word" that is NOT directed towards a single person (Then again you cant go inside a chat and start insulting a certein group of people like for their race, or like for their religion ect, having that in mind of course)

No we want consistency in the way DE handles players and moderators. We don't want to be held to a different standard than the mods. We want how DE handles their moderators to be transparent, not this opaqueness which is making it difficult to understand why a few moderators are getting away with away saying hateful comments while players are getting banned for hateful comments. Its not a matter of "they can do it so we should be able to do it," its "I'm banned so why are they not banned?" God save the queen, I've never open my mouth, I play the game, I log in I log out, and have fun with my clan mates. Even though I haven't been banned for anything like hate speech, this issue still matters to me even if I haven't been personally affected by it. I've been banned once and that was for caps, I think I was saying something like "BARO IS HERE BABY AND HE'S GOT THE GOODS,"  but just knowing I'm being held to a different standard than the people representing DE is unfortunate.

 

My take away from this is that the philosophy behind how DE wants their community to be is not consistent. If someone wants to claim the philosophy is consistent, how can someone be banned for a hateful word when a chat moderator can be accepted as a volunteer in spite of having a hateful word in their name? Its not an issue of chat or chat filters people, we have a tenno in here who received punishment for hateful speech while a chat moderator is able to still be a chat moderator even with  a hateful word in their name. The issue is not about being able to use or not use hate speech, the issue is these hate speech rules are not being applied to everyone equally. And that is truly unfortunate.

Or at least that's my core take away. I'm sure I'm missing parts of the whole issue, but the above is what bothers me the most. I don't mind playing games with people, as long as everyone has to follow the rules.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Cibyllae

[hadesdragon13]

Does anyone else find the sheer number of people almost deliberately missing the point rather fascinating? 

ok i am going to preface this with the fact that i have aspergers so if any of this comes across as overly aggressive, that is not the intent but rather a symptom of my own cognitive defects.  

3 major points i want to get to

1) can DE set up, as either a sticky on the forum or preferably in the game itself, an express listing of all ban-able words, along with ban duration if there is any variance. As this thread and others show not everyone takes words with the same connotations. This would create both a greater feeling of fair play as everyone can see what to avoid and don't have to find out the hard way that something they personally did not feel was offensive will get them banned. 

2) can we get an official and public list of standards to which the guides of the lotus/ chat mods are to be universally held accountable? and to exactly what source to reference to when they fail to meet these standards. As it is very clear that the standards given when Fostinator was removed, have not been applied to others. this would make IDing both problematic mods, and DE's reaction to them, far clearer in the future

3) Can someone please explain how DE handpicked someone who stated their bigotry in their very username in 2015, how Megan and Rebecca at the very least where aware of this, in 2015 and yet they are still a mod in 2018 and the mod at least seems to claim some degree of power. As this creates a rather, well sad, condition in that DE in their choice of actions has in effect stated that bigotry against what is a very small minority is bad, but bigotry against what would be the vast majority, assuming average statistics for a tactical shooter, is...encouraged? which i must admit is a bit of a gut punch. I didn't expect to be treated as a second class citizen in a game which is so well known for such a wonderful community, but by policing Fostinator for his actions outside the game, and yet failing to do so to others for flat out failing to live up to these standards in game.

I just, IDK. I was so excited to be coming up on tennocon, and sacrifice and now.... now i am just sad.

Edited June 1, 2018 by hadesdragon13
forgot DE in point 1

[Caliboom]

I don't get it, why are some people allowed to be mods when they literally hate most of the community they're moderating and even insult them outside of Warframe? 

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

49 minutes ago, Beartornado said:

It's because of the video, because of the opening mess of this thread. You're trying to salvage something that doesn't deserve to be salvaged, you don't have to prop your actual issue up with someone else's broken mess.

Could you please try to phrase that in a way that isn't toxic? You seem to be the only miffed person here.

[(PSN)TheRealTommo]

Nothing to see here... Move along...

[-.SP.-G43riel]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRealTommo said:

Nothing to see here... Move along...

au contraire mon ami, theres a lot to see here.  Check the video, skip the first 6 min.
and dont understand the thread wrongly
the focus here is hardly simply the chat bot filter, its about privileges for wrong people (some Moderators) who dont get punished for their actions.

Edited June 1, 2018 by -.SP.-G43riel

[DeMonkey]

6 hours ago, Lord-Taco-the-Great said:

I agree that OP was abrasive, but the video, like, actually made good points. It's a long watch, but it's pretty thorough 

That may be true, but simply posting someone else's video is not enough. Plus, this video has been posted numerous times so it's kinda spammy if it's the only thing they post.

So the OP has to offer more than just the video, and what they offered was a load of rubbish that undercuts everything they want to achieve. Hence my post.

[Me.KayOh]

Well. Someone answer that phone

 

Because I called it!

 

Knew the guides of the lotus was the start of bad things. 

 

EDIT: Pretty glad I was never offered a place. I would never accept to being a part of that.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Church002

[Caliboom]

So, I'll compare this mod problem to real life.

Imagine you owned a bank, and you hired a security guard to protect that bank.

If they were throwing rocks at random people when they weren't doing their job, would you still let them become a security guard?

Basically, just because the bad things a moderator does are outside of Warframe, it doesn't mean something shouldn't be done about it. If they insult the community behind their backs, then they clearly shouldn't be a moderator. They don't do those things in-game because they know they'll get punished for it.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Caliboom

[-.SP.-G43riel]

16 minutes ago, Caliboom said:

So, I'll compare this mod problem to real life.

Imagine you owned a bank, and you hired a security guard to protect that bank.

If they were throwing rocks at random people when they weren't doing their job, would you still let them become a security guard?

Basically, just because the bad things a moderator does are outside of Warframe, it doesn't mean something shouldn't be done about it. If they insult the community behind their backs, then they clearly shouldn't be a moderator. They don't do those things in-game because they know they'll get punished for it.

the problem with this is that, guards dont represent that brand, they are usually from a 3rd party company so it was really not the right way to compare at all.

A better one would be  a player in a team saying bad stuff in his public accounts, or a manager of a store treating customers bad without their CEO knowing. They have to represent the brand of the company, they influence how people may feel about that brand. 
Heck the most recent exemple is a  BIOWARE  programmer getting kicked out of the company due his REALLY bad comments and behavior about a deceased person.
 

Edited June 1, 2018 by -.SP.-G43riel

[Vistha-Kai]

7 hours ago, Crucafix said:

So I've sent a support ticket regarding of what happened with my account and this is what I've got.

1 week ban is really severe for a really mild and rather harmless banter but DE just expect me to put up with what happened to me.

I'm really disappointed that I've ever spend money on this game. The community was great the first time I've jumped into this game, but after this, I wasn't so sure anymore.
 

Spoiler

 

^ That is DE today.

v This is DE 3 years ago.

Spoiler

Noticed a difference?

 

 

10 hours ago, Lord-Taco-the-Great said:

They didn't lock mine, but it's been open for around three weeks with no response. It doesn't seem like anyone wants to take it, but we'll see. However, I've had more luck using the community inbox. Be careful you don't get a certain member who has close ties with these mods, as they seem to have a bias in support of them. However, this is just one member and should not be treated as the whole. I lucked out and got an indifferent member, who responded kindly and concisely.  

I had a similar situation with my first ticket about my issue with moderation (the next 3 were instantly locked) but after I bumped it after a few days I got a response (albeit a very bot-like one) after an hour.

It didn't really matter, because the person behind those replies kept telling me I told them it's a technical issue not related to moderation and that I was most likely banned by a moderator until inevitably they locked the ticket. (duh)

Edited June 1, 2018 by Vistha-Kai

[krc473]

9 minutes ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

the problem with this is that, guards dont represent that brand, they are usually from a 3rd party company so it was really not the right way to compare at all.

The bank and guard scenario is perfectly reasonable. Would you let someone stand around your business that was abusing the other customers/clients? I certainly would not want a guard (regardless of who they worked for) that was abusive towards customers. The mods do not work for DE. The guard does not work for the bank. Both represent the company where they are meant to enforce the rules.

 

I would assume DE would attempt to remove/discipline any mods that are not acting in a manner suitable to the position. Just like I would expect with anyone contracted to a business.

[Carnage2K4]

12 minutes ago, Vistha-Kai said:

^ That is DE today.

v This is DE 3 years ago.

Noticed a difference?

I had a similar situation with my first ticket about my issue with moderation (the next 3 were instantly locked) but after I bumped it after a few days I got a response (albeit a very bot-like one) after an hour.

It didn't really matter, because the person behind those replies kept telling me I told them it's a technical issue not related to moderation and that I was most likely banned by a moderator until inevitably they locked the ticket. (duh)

The amazing thing about this is that this is the typical response from a forum mod:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/961944-please-help/?tab=comments#comment-9809631

Quote

The forums are unable to help with chat suspensions and bans.
You need to contact support or wait for support to reply to your ticket.

Support: http://support.warframe.com/ 

If you have already sent in a ticket and have not regained access to chat after 1 week has passed from the date when you were suspended, "bump" the ticket to show its still an issue as most people usually have chat back again by the time support is able to answer their ticket. 

So basically you come here, and you're told to contact support, to be told by support they cannot get involved.
Genius System.
I remember when support was good, sad it's like this now.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Carnage2K4

[rune_me]

12 minutes ago, Vistha-Kai said:

Noticed a difference?

Yes. One case you didn't know what caused the offense so the ban was lifted. The other was a clear violation of the rules, so no action was taken. In both cases, support did their job.