(XB1/PS4) Virtual Cursor Feedback Megathread

[TwoWolves]

10 hours ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

I've been noticing a bug where cursor and button controls will often "mix" out of nowhere. Basically both inputs will be registered as valid or invalid at the same time; often resulting in freezing commands or misclicks.

I thought that was my controller going on the fritz. Half the time, my Nezha will just up and use his fourth power out of nowhere, even though I never held R2 and pressed ∆!

3 hours ago, (PS4)HarigeVINCE said:

Do you realise why you're annoying everyone in here? You keep defending DE with wrong information. Get your head out of the sand please. And no the patch wasn't a 'huge improvement', just a tiny little one. Almost everything is still annoying, I could make a whole list.

If DE would've told us they would work on a toggle or just any way to get the old UI logic back, we wouldn't be complaining like this. It has nothing to do with instant gratification at all. It's not a matter of 'when' it will be fixed, but 'if' it will be fixed at all.

If we don't keep calling them out on this obvious mistake, they won't bother fixing this mess on console. You must be new here I guess?

So, uh...who appointed you Devil's Advocate? I don't feel "annoyed" by him. Wasting time and space on telling someone else why they are wrong and being annoying is just that: A waste of time and thread space. If you have valid feedback, feel free to leave it in the thread. If not, then move along. That solves all the problem with the pro-change vs. no-change vs. wtf-change people. 

 

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

Feedback/bugs:

Can't rotate the Operator for fashion;

Closing chat deletes invite window;

In Arsenal L1 R1 sometimes deactivate and/or can't use them unless cursor is right on top of center mods or navigation bar;

Choosing relic reward sometimes cannot change original choice (could be bug between choosing with arrows and cursor); 

Can only click on 1 (one) link or name in chat, them have to close and open window again to press on another (sometimes have to close entire pause menu);

When chatting with another player have to put cursor right on top of name to open options when before we just pressed X (and X is visible); 

In Capture arrows don't work to move bars (or go up and down), can only click with cursor.

Also, quick question: I thought this was going to be compatible with touch pad on PS4 but it isn't... Was it supposed to be so or did I miss something in options?

Edited June 19, 2018 by (PS4)leonidasx666
Found that you can preview fashion in Arsenal with Square button

[(XBOX)ManicZanic]

another bug to report. 

When leaving a mission if you have the chat window open the game prioritizes the end of mission commands instead of chat commands. I have had to abruptly leave a party more times than I want to admit because I tried pressing X to tell people I was leaving and accidentally re-queued the 1 hr survival mission I just finished. Also pressing B to exit the chat window often closes the end of mission results screen instead of closing the chat window meaning if I want to re-queue or check rewards I have to either find the node again or open the last mission results tab.

[(PSN)kurasauchiha]

BUG REPORT:

The GPU Particle setting does not save when closing and restarting warframe on PS4 

Also, can’t rotate operator during fashion adjustments

Edited June 18, 2018 by (PS4)kurasauchiha

[(PSN)corpusbonds]

1 minute ago, (PS4)kurasauchiha said:

BUG REPORT:

The GPU Particle setting does not save when closing and restarting warframe on PS4 

Also, can’t rotate operator during fashion adjustments

Yep, there’s actually a bug thread on the forums about the particles!

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

Okay, now that I've had a chance to look at some of the UI that's incoming and have more information on where they're at in the process, I'm very worried.

The UI model they say inspired them (e.g. Witcher 3) is not a good choice and I was very frustrated with the Witcher 3's inventory system in general. It was one of the low points of that game. Removing important information like labels and price information was a mistake.

Their UI design work seems to be grounded in some incorrect concepts.

1. Witcher 3 had good item management (it didn't)
2. The image of the item is sufficient to identify what everything is (it's not)

Ironically hover/focus is actually better with keyboard/d-pad since we stop at each item already, but we still need some basic information to make decisions. Price is an important one, especially when buying things. When I go to Baro I total up the ducats I need to buy all the things I think are must-have and then farm them. If I have to hover over each one that increases the amount of time I have to do this and makes it more likely I will total it up incorrectly.

These are the pieces of info that I definitely need at a glance:

• Icon/image
• Name
• Quantity/Level (it seems things either have a level or a quantity, but not both; exception mods which have a unique presentation)
  • For blueprints it should have both the number of blueprints owned and the number of items owned. Presenting it as "17 (I) / 1 (B)" or "0 (I) / 0 (B)" would be fine. [where (I) and (B) are icons for constructed item and blueprint respectively)
  • For components it would be nice if it told me how many of the completed item I have. E.g. it would be nice if Frost Prime Neuroptics showed that I had already built Frost Prime.
• Price (when buying and selling)
• Is Mastered (for both blueprints and items)

Some of the above aren't going to be doable due to added processing/service call cost. But that's what I'd like to see at a glance.

[TwoWolves]

If they go to Witcher 3's sh*tty interface, I'm done. I play Skyrim and Fallout 4 for much the same reason I enjoy playing Warframe: Exploring the environments, and finding every secret. If they would head over to the Nexus forums themselves, they could find out instantly how universally panned the Witcher 3 interface was, and the sheer number of UI mods that exist for that game should be ringing alarm bells. 

I've already posted in other threads about how they need to add detail instead of removing it. It's absolutely ridiculous, and it's going to bite them right on their collective backsides when players start abandoning the game in droves. There's a reason why Witcher 3, Skyrim and Fallout: New Vegas have so many UI mods available. Bethesda was quick to ensure that the UI on Fallout 4 was polished before releasing it, and even then, they had problems. 

But here's the thing that really made those games come alive, whereas Warframe is drowning in a sea of corporate greed that doesn't appreciate nor understand the nuances of player-experience: Extraneous details. Those non-essential details that have zero impact on the game itself are what makes the Warframe universe come alive. Yeah, that's fine that the basic description is: "The Strun is a standard shotgun. Reliable, versatile and deadly." However, that's rather sterile. How about... "The Strun is a standard shotgun manufactured by Clem Weaponry, and is often found amongst frontline Grineer troops. The Strun is particularly effective against large crowds, and is renowned for it's reliability, versatility, and outright deadliness." 

Of those, which of the two is going to make you stop as a player to appreciate the depth of the Warframe universe? This is why the EU of Star Wars was so encompassing and immersive--everything and everyone had a story. Those extraneous details are what makes the difference between "Oh, another MMO space game, yay!" and "Holy sh*t, the Warframe universe is huge!"

DE should tread lightly as this UI, and now the melee rework, are threatening to completely destroy their customer base. If they choose to persist, they have fair warning that their profits will erode faster than a sand castle at high tide. 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by TwoWolves

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

Big ol' sigh.

It's still really hard to get into playing the game.  I was just trying to keep up with Sorties until the Cursor UI became truly user-friendly, but even that is obnoxious with having to Leave Groups and other things that used to be easy and fluid.  Seems like I'm logging in to progress my Log-In Bonuses.

Really annoyed that I've got these Boosters running and the game is frustrating to engage with now.  Looking at Limbo Prime's lackluster Prime Accessories, it looks like DE was planning ahead for reduced interest in Warframe after the UI-pocalypse...

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

My question that I would love an answer to is how is d-pad navigation + scrolling going to work when things are before/after the scrolling control. E.g.

[... controls up top ...]

[... vertical scrolling area ...]
[......]
[......]
[......]
[......]

[... controls below ...]

If the d-pad scrolls, then the controls above and below will be a pain to access with the d-pad alone since either you couldn't leave the vertical scrolling area OR you would have to scroll to the very top or very bottom to reach the controls above or below, respectively.

[(PSN)HarigeVINCE]

3 hours ago, TwoWolves said:

So, uh...who appointed you Devil's Advocate? I don't feel "annoyed" by him. Wasting time and space on telling someone else why they are wrong and being annoying is just that: A waste of time and thread space. If you have valid feedback, feel free to leave it in the thread. If not, then move along. That solves all the problem with the pro-change vs. no-change vs. wtf-change people. 

 

Lol you think you got me with your fancy gif and emoji, le epic trollz XD, while you totally ignore my argument on why I said he's annoying some of us. Then you continue doing the same thing you blame me of doing? Hmmmm.. I smell a hypocrite.

And I do have valid advice; don't force a cursor on people using a controller because it's bad interaction design. Read my previous posts and try to understand what I'm actually saying.

PS: I don't think you understand the meaning of 'devil's advocate' m80, nice try slandering me there ;)

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)HarigeVINCE said:

don't force a cursor on people using a controller because it's bad interaction design

People keep saying this like it's a universal truth when it's really not. Just because something gets repeated a billion zillion times doesn't make it true.

Cursor controls are inferior in grids and radial menus. But any time the items in question aren't lined up that way, the cursor is actually better. See example below (red is d-pad; green is cursor). D-pad navigation here is not intuitive. it generally moves in the right direction, but it's not exact. There are lots of UI elements that you can create where d-pad is worse than a cursor. It's not that it's a cursor it's just that grids and menus are so aligned with cardinal direction navigation that everything else feels bad.

But just like you're not restricted to mouse only on a desktop, you're not restricted to d-pad only on a console. You can have both discrete keyboard-style navigation (i.e. keyboard / d-pad). And cursor-based navigation (i.e. mouse / stick). Each one will shine with different UI elements. The trick for DE is going to be providing us both interfaces and making them work well.

The big issue in the updated UI right now is that the d-pad doesn't actually work like a keyboard. It doesn't have a true concept of keyboard focus. It doesn't scroll. It animates between items because it's really a funky cursor, snapping between items and animating it's movement. That's not how keyboard focus works, and so its driving us crazy because it doesn't work the way we expect it to work. If they fixed that aspect of it, then things would be much better. And no toggle would be necessary. One stick would be your mouse. The other your scroll wheel. The d-pad would be your arrow keys. UI concepts would be unified and peace would return to the land. The problem is that's not what we have. And, also, that it's not that easy.

But I wish people would stop spreading the idea that cursors don't work on console because it's just not true based on current research. Now if you have some comprehensive UX research that says otherwise that isn't just the argument: "I tried it and it was terrible" or "look at all the complaints", then I will retract my statement. But lots of UIs out there on console have cursors and they have their place (as hopefully, I've demonstrated).

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

My question that I would love an answer to is how is d-pad navigation + scrolling going to work when things are before/after the scrolling control. E.g.

[... controls up top ...]

[... vertical scrolling area ...]
[......]
[......]
[......]
[......]

[... controls below ...]

If the d-pad scrolls, then the controls above and below will be a pain to access with the d-pad alone since either you couldn't leave the vertical scrolling area OR you would have to scroll to the very top or very bottom to reach the controls above or below, respectively.

^ What's an example of this currently in game? For the menus I access constantly, I don't require that the d-pad be able to navigate outside the scrollable area...

Example changing a weapon:

- Press shortcut to open scrolling weapon selection pane, current weapon is selected.

- Use d-pad to hilite weapon (list scrolls up/down as needed).

- Accept weapon with X/A or close weapon selection pane with O/B.

Being able to navigate to other UI items with the d-pad is not something that is commonly required here, if we need to use the left stick/cursor for this, it would be acceptable to me.

Example picking a mission:

- Press right trigger to open mission select menu on start chart.

- Use bumpers to choose mission category, top entry is selected.

- Use d-pad to scroll up/down to select mission.

- Accept with X/A, close mission selection list with O/B, or use bumpers to change category.

Again, needing to navigate to other UI items isn't the norm, you can use shortcuts for most things, and the cursor as a fallback for anything else...

 

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

^ What's an example of this currently in game? For the menus I access constantly, I don't require that the d-pad be able to navigate outside the scrollable area...

Example changing a weapon:

- Press shortcut to open scrolling weapon selection pane, current weapon is selected.

- Use d-pad to hilite weapon (list scrolls up/down as needed).

- Accept weapon with X/A or close weapon selection pane with O/B.

Being able to navigate to other UI items with the d-pad is not something that is commonly required here, if we need to use the left stick/cursor for this, it would be acceptable to me.

Example picking a mission:

- Press right trigger to open mission select menu on start chart.

- Use bumpers to choose mission category, top entry is selected.

- Use d-pad to scroll up/down to select mission.

- Accept with X/A, close mission selection list with O/B, or use bumpers to change category.

Again, needing to navigate to other UI items isn't the norm, you can use shortcuts for most things, and the cursor as a fallback for anything else...

 

The category selector is typically found above the following grids. Most are already vertically scrolled and for the other if they were, this could be a problem.

• inventory items
• mod inventory (when eventually vertically scrolled),
• equipping mods (when eventually vertically scrolled),
• shop screen (Baro, syndicate, various traders)
• navigation
• foundry
• relics

Right now all of these are handled by bumpers, but if that's the case why make them d-pad "stops" at all since bumpers are the primary way of interacting with categories.

If you read back, I'm fairly positive overall on what DE is trying to accomplish and I've been trying to call for patience and understanding rather than rage at what's happened. But as a professional UX programmer, I'm curious how they plan on handling this problem.

[(XBOX)ManicZanic]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

People keep saying this like it's a universal truth when it's really not. Just because something gets repeated a billion zillion times doesn't make it true.

Cursor controls are inferior in grids and radial menus. But any time the items in question aren't lined up that way, the cursor is actually better. See example below (red is d-pad; green is cursor). D-pad navigation here is not intuitive. it generally moves in the right direction, but it's not exact. There are lots of UI elements that you can create where d-pad is worse than a cursor. It's not that it's a cursor it's just that grids and menus are so aligned with cardinal direction navigation that everything else feels bad.

But Warframe is almost entirely grids and radial menus. In fact, most games heavily utilize grids and radial menus. It is only in the navigation menu that you see anything other than a grid or radial menu and no one that I know of was complaining of the virtual cursor in the navigation menu. The complaints only started after they forced the virtual cursor on the grid and radial menus which you yourself say is the inferior option.

[(PSN)HarigeVINCE]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

-snip-

I'll try to explain why a cursor is no good design for controllers:

Using a mouse, you can select something fast and accurately wherever the object is on your screen. Using a joystick, the cursor is less accurate and moves slower.

Every time you select something with your cursor, the screen changes and the new object you want to select is in a different position, so you need to use your cursor all the time, which is a slow and inaccurate process.

With the old UI logic, when you selected something in your menu, the game automatically selected the most logical object in your new screen.

Sorry if this isn't clear, but take color customization as an example; you used to be able to select a color, press down on d-pad, and select the next color slot. A really fast process. With a cursor you need to constantly move your cursor left and right, up and down,.. it's no issue with a mouse because it's fast and accurate, but this isn't the case with a joystick at all!

And yes, other games have cursors as well, but most of those games (if not all) are pc ports and in no game ever have I had a positive experience with a cursor using a controller.

[TwoWolves]

1 minute ago, (PS4)HarigeVINCE said:

Lol you think you got me with your fancy gif and emoji, le epic trollz XD, while you totally ignore my argument on why I said he's annoying some of us. Then you continue doing the same thing you blame me of doing? Hmmmm.. I smell a hypocrite.

And I do have valid advice; don't force a cursor on people using a controller because it's bad interaction design. Read my previous posts and try to understand what I'm actually saying.

No, you didn't say some of us, you said all of us, and you, sir, do not speak for me, just as I would not presume to speak for you out of simple courtesy. It's a matter of respect. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)HarigeVINCE said:

PS: I don't think you understand the meaning of 'devil's advocate' m80, nice try slandering me there 😉

??? 

Merriam-Webster defines Devil's Advocate as "A person who champions the less accepted cause for the sake of argument." What slander is implied in that? I was simply saying since you seem to be electing yourself champion of everything non-DE by saying that the other person was entirely pro-DE, I wanted to know who elected you to speak for me? Again, where is the slander?

So, you're saying that I should have left some valid feedback on the UI in that post as well as single you out for presuming to speak for every single person on here? Okay, I'll concede that point. You're right. I should have.

Let's see. I'm not caring for this latest rumor of them using Witcher 3 as a template because of how horrible the UI for that game was. I was just wondering to myself what Gopher over on Nexus would say about all this in his crisp New Zealand accent that automatically seems to lend him an air of authority...lol 

If DE was really, and I mean really, interested in innovation, they'd look for a way to release mod packages you could buy to customize the UI elements yourself with different basic templates/overlays/skins. They'd only need to design ten or fifteen pieces to gauge interest, and it would work similar to how Rainmeter works with their sci-fi desktop overlays. I'll post one sample below to show you what I mean. The corner panels are all separate, as are all the central ones as well, and there's at least twenty more that I don't even use for the sides. Not only that, some of the elements are clickable and functional, too. Only, for Warframe, this would be the UI elements you want, and only the ones you want (so if you only want controller-activated elements, you wouldn't be stuck with a cursor-focused scheme), all done as overlays in mod packages sold through their storefront. This is already what they do with selling skins and all this other extraneous stuff that serves no function other than to drain the pocketbooks of fans who want to show off their dedication to this game.

Obviously, you wouldn't need all of them, but you get the idea.

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)ManicZanic said:

But Warframe is almost entirely grids and radial menus. In fact, most games heavily utilize grids and radial menus. It is only in the navigation menu that you see anything other than a grid or radial menu and no one that I know of was complaining of the virtual cursor in the navigation menu. The complaints only started after they forced the virtual cursor on the grid and radial menus which you yourself say is the inferior option.

I agree that Warframe is almost all grids. That's a design decision, but in the future they could go a different direction. I'm arguing for having both a cursor and directional input. And frankly having both is actually better. The same way that the mouse and keyboard augment each other. The cursor + directional input can compliment each other.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

Right now all of these are handled by bumpers, but if that's the case why make them d-pad "stops" at all since bumpers are the primary way of interacting with categories.

Why indeed.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

People keep saying this like it's a universal truth when it's really not. Just because something gets repeated a billion zillion times doesn't make it true.

Cursor controls are inferior in grids and radial menus. But any time the items in question aren't lined up that way, the cursor is actually better. See example below (red is d-pad; green is cursor). D-pad navigation here is not intuitive. it generally moves in the right direction, but it's not exact. There are lots of UI elements that you can create where d-pad is worse than a cursor. It's not that it's a cursor it's just that grids and menus are so aligned with cardinal direction navigation that everything else feels bad.

But just like you're not restricted to mouse only on a desktop, you're not restricted to d-pad only on a console. You can have both discrete keyboard-style navigation (i.e. keyboard / d-pad). And cursor-based navigation (i.e. mouse / stick). Each one will shine with different UI elements. The trick for DE is going to be providing us both interfaces and making them work well.

The big issue in the updated UI right now is that the d-pad doesn't actually work like a keyboard. It doesn't have a true concept of keyboard focus. It doesn't scroll. It animates between items because it's really a funky cursor, snapping between items and animating it's movement. That's not how keyboard focus works, and so its driving us crazy because it doesn't work the way we expect it to work. If they fixed that aspect of it, then things would be much better. And no toggle would be necessary. One stick would be your mouse. The other your scroll wheel. The d-pad would be your arrow keys. UI concepts would be unified and peace would return to the land. The problem is that's not what we have. And, also, that it's not that easy.

But I wish people would stop spreading the idea that cursors don't work on console because it's just not true based on current research. Now if you have some comprehensive UX research that says otherwise that isn't just the argument: "I tried it and it was terrible" or "look at all the complaints", then I will retract my statement. But lots of UIs out there on console have cursors and they have their place (as hopefully, I've demonstrated).

All you need to dispute this is a timer that records how long it takes to move from A to F. Tapping right 5 times is still faster for most console players as they won't overshoot or end up having to stop and verify that they have placed the cursor on the correct icon. Again, console players have years of practice doing this, just as when you type you often know of you hit the wrong letter before you read the error on screen. It is just an ingrained mechanic that is second nature to console users and it would take years of practice with as cursor to overcome this habit. The problem is that every other console game and even the system UI trains console players to tap in a direction. Sure, console players can adapt to using a cursor, but it will never be an innate action for them.

EDIT: And to be fair just finding the cursor on the console takes longer than tapping in a direction does.

Edited June 18, 2018 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)HarigeVINCE said:

I'll try to explain why a cursor is no good design for controllers:

Using a mouse, you can select something fast and accurately wherever the object is on your screen. Using a joystick, the cursor is less accurate and moves slower.

Every time you select something with your cursor, the screen changes and the new object you want to select is in a different position, so you need to use your cursor all the time, which is a slow and inaccurate process.

Part of the problem is that the function (linear) is bad for control. In both mice and sticks, you are translating mechanical movement into a function of distance or acceleration. Acceleration is an inferior scheme, but only a little. The current situation is made worse by the translation function they're using that takes the stick's delta from center (+/-X; +/-Y) and translates that into an acceleration value (i.e. how much distance to move the cursor for each unit of time it's held at that delta).

My gut feel is that they're using something very close to linear. E.g. A delta of (X+5, Y+5) translates to (pos+5*F, pos+5*F) per second where F is some linear factor. The issue is that low values of F makes for an agonizingly slow feeling cursor and high values of F make for a cursor that zips around and feels hard to control.

An S-curve function has a better feel to it. Essentially small deltas all end up being slower movement meaning you don't have to be as precise. It also flattens the upper end so that high deltas don't fling your cursor across the screen. The idea being that you really want either slow or fast movement with a quick transition between them. S-curve translation functions give you that. Basically it turns your cursor into something that's fast and accurate because it's easy and intuitive to transition between them. Actually a lot of mice and trackballs already have this built-in to the drivers.

It is totally possible for DE to bake in a better translation function for their virtual cursor and produce something that feels a lot better. There's a lot of art and science to creating a satisfying experience with any input device.

My general issue is that people keep making blanket statements without really having a deep understanding of the subject matter. A lot of the feedback is useful, but making a blanket statement like "cursors are bad on consoles" isn't backed by an actual understanding of how input devices work. The realities of console development. Why the accuracy of the mouse isn't that much better than potential accuracy of a controller.

There are literally dozens of things that can be tweaked in how the cursor works that would bring it in line with the efficiency of the mouse on desktop. And it has more to do with the software than the hardware and that's something DE can actually do something about.

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

All you need to dispute this is a timer that records how long it takes to move from A to F. Tapping right 5 times is still faster for most console players as they won't overshoot or end up having to stop and verify that they have placed the cursor on the correct icon. Again, console players have years of practice doing this, just as when you type you often know of you hit the wrong letter before you read the error on screen. It is just an ingrained mechanic that is second nature to console users and it would take years of practice with as cursor to overcome this habit. The problem is that every other console game and even the system UI trains console players to tap in a direction. Sure, console players can adapt to using a cursor, but it will never be an innate action for them.

EDIT: And to be fair just finding the cursor on the console takes longer than tapping in a direction does.

Usability of cursors follow Fitts's law. There's quite a bit of science to the whole thing. And keyboard/d-pad navigation overshoots too.

Back in the 90s there was a lot of discussion over the efficiencies of mice versus keyboards when interacting with software. Keyboard users were convinced they were faster, but it turns out they weren't. There was a perception glitch in the brain. For keyboard users, there was a constant flurry of activity and it felt more interactive than when using the mouse. But it turns out when actually timing them and comparing error rates, the mouse users were actually faster. Not by a lot, but it pretty much killed the argument in some UX circles.

When you have a well-built UI, the speed argument doesn't really hold. I can make a UI that performs better with a keyboard or one that performs better with a mouse. The same can be said for d-pad and cursor.

With non-grids the issue is that it's hard to predict where keyboard navigation will go from any given spot. Grids give us that predictability, which is actually more important than speed in terms of liking a UI. Research shows us that errors frustrate people more than slowness. But combining a high error rate with a slow UI is a good way to make everyone mad.

D-pad navigation works best in grids with a limited number of items. The larger the number of items the worse the performance. In fact, one area that I'm grateful for the new UI is the mod inventory screen. The fact that I don't have to pass through each item individually means that I can get to my common duplicates to sell them much faster than before. Before I had to filter them down to common. Manage those. Filter them down to uncommon. Manage those. Then clear the filter.

The more items that they add to the game, the slower d-pad navigation is going to be. When you have 3,000 discrete mods that's a lot of d-pad navigation. Ultimately search becomes the primary interface which kind of makes the cursor/d-pad argument moot as most of your time is going to be spent in the virtual keyboard (or actual keyboard). There's a common problem UX designers hit when item/control count hits different levels. Older control schemes stop being efficient.

Toolbars work well up to a certain number of commands. After a certain point you spend all your time looking for the toolbar button. Keyboard shortcuts also start to fail after a certain number of commands. Even our category navigation is going to start being a problem as they add more categories. What happens when we hit 30 categories of items? Are we just going to hit R1 15 times? I'm frequently annoyed when I start hitting R1, when going around the back would have been faster.

Keyboard navigation has limitations. Acknowledging those limitations and creating an input scheme that allows the user to pick the best input mechanism for the task is likely the best way to go. And it's something I hope DE pursues. I can see some of the problems they're going to hit because I've dealt with them as a UX developer myself. They're common problems.

I just hope, we the users and customers, stay open-minded enough to allow DE to produce the best UI they can rather than stick to some belief that's not founded in the science of UX.

Edited June 18, 2018 by (PS4)FurryZenJustice

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@(PS4)FurryZenJustice

I understand what you are saying but the entire console culture goes against this way of thinking. Again, it would take DE months/years to optimize the cursor UI and even if they do revolutionize the console UI then it would take years for others to follow as most developers are not going to change their UI until their next project. Slowly, more and more developers will follow and maybe in 5 years we could retrain console players to use a cursor interface.

It's the same for any new technology as even electric cars are a hassle at first since you need to get in the habit of recharging it, or planning routes based on charging station locations, etc. The benefit just isn't there to the same degree as having a gas station on every corner. In the case of electric cars we are likely 20 years away from them being a true benefit.

Anyway, people like to keep things simple. They don't mind doing an extra step or two if it means they don't have to think about what they are doing. You can design the most streamlined interface but if the user needs to stop and think about what they are doing they won't see it as a benefit. It's only when the user has enough practice with the new technology that it becomes a benefit and everything else feels outdated. This requires the product to either dominate the market (iTunes/iPod) or for the product to be used by a majority of the market (Windows, Android, automatic transmissions, etc.). When this happens the users will be forced to adapt and no longer see it as a hindrance.

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

@(PS4)Hiero_Glyph

I don't think we're talking about 5 years. Wii controllers, PS Move didn't take that long to adjust. Humans are remarkably adaptable.

But even then we're not talking about something new. The problem distilled isn't that they gave us a mouse, it's that they took away our keyboard. If the d-pad functioned more-or-less like it did before as directional keys, I think we'd be fine. Then the only other thing they'd have to solve is how it transitions between keyboard and mouse; or d-pad and stick. I'm reducing the complexity for the sake of brevity, but I think we're looking at most problems going away in a couple months and something refined in 6. It does matter how much they prioritize the problem.

And the cursor UI doesn't have to be optimized at warp speed if they can give us some semblance of a decent d-pad/keyboard UI. And this can be accomplished while keeping their goal of unified UI code.

Off the top of my head, here are the top things they could do that may significantly improve things that would also be relatively quick:

• S-curve stick to cursor translation (vs linear)
• Aim-assist for buttons and other controls (translating concept of aim assist from the shooting part of the game)
• Resize and re-position controls taking Fitts's law into consideration.
• Add button shortcuts for major functions currently hidden behind menus (e.g. leave squad, show profile)
• Allow d-pad to scroll
• (Maybe) Reintroduce the concept of keyboard navigation and keyboard focus
  • Map d-pad to arrow keys
  • Allow keyboard focus and mouse focus to be separate things as they are in operating systems
  • Moving the mouse/cursor and then pressing a direction button (keyboard or d-pad) sets the keyboard focus on that item

[mastermaniac]

4 hours ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

People keep saying this like it's a universal truth when it's really not.

No, it is a terrible idea. It plays exactly against a controller's strengths. Moreover, practically nobody wants it. Even worse, the UI isn't remotely finished enough to justify foisting the cursor on people. A much better way to do this, would have been to complete the whole thing, test it properly, and then release it into the wild. If people are going to "get used" to something, they'd get used to something that works. Not that anybody asked for, wants, or needs these silly, superfluous, zero-gain changes when there are far more interesting things that could have been added to the game.

I've also seen bizarrely defensive behavior trying to excuse the devs for the "they can't go back" policy. Why should that be defended? They chose to move forward with a "screw you, get used to it" mindset with no provisions for adjustment or optional "original" functions. That's on them, and they deserve the scorn.

Edited June 18, 2018 by mastermaniac
Edited for unnecessary hostility

[(XBOX)Rhedvicus]

The new console UI was really bad at first, and now that it added a few of the button commands back it is slightly better. However, it is still extremely clunky, slow, and annoying. I can see how this would be a nice feature for PC, and maybe some console users, but please give a setting to completely remove the cursor and go back to the old UI. I am glad there is work going into improving the game, but this new UI, for consoles, makes Warframe feel like it was a really poorly emulated PC game, which I know it is not.