(XB1/PS4) Virtual Cursor Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

5 hours ago, mastermaniac said:

I've also seen bizarrely defensive behavior trying to excuse the devs for the "they can't go back" policy. Why should that be defended? They chose to move forward with a "screw you, get used to it" mindset with no provisions for adjustment or optional "original" functions. That's on them, and they deserve the scorn.

There are literally a dozen posts taking about why it's simply not a realistic solution because of the realities of software development. I know, I've written a lot of them and I'm a professional UX programmer.

DE has spent a lot of time talking about how they are going to address the various issues compared to the couple of comments about getting used to it.

And do you honestly think that DE shave such a low opinion of their users that they just thought "screw them"?  Or is it just possible that someone thought they had a good idea, latched onto it and ignored feedback? Because people do that. They get attached to ideas. They think that if people just see what they see, they'll love it too.

I'm not trying to defend DE. I am trying to help people understand the development process because it's hard and it's easy to make mistakes. And having a large group of people trash something you thought was great is extremely hard, even when what you produced was terrible.

I've paid a chunk of money into this game and the changes have affected me negatively as well, but I also understand that there are actual people on the other end of this and they deserve civility and basic human decency.

[(PSN)ShiinGlacier]

Came back 2 weeks later to check the state of things and it seems it’s just like when I left, and that is DE simply telling us to “get used to it”. They didn’t even find a way to get to the “leave squad” button in a better/easier/faster way, lol. 

I guess this time it’ll be a month or so before I come back to check if they have abandoned this stupid idea of a clumsy cursor based ui on a console system when the old way worked so much better. 

[(PSN)VauhtiVeikko]

I hope people will vote with their wallets. That's the only thing that matters really. Don't buy plat or access until The Curse is fixed. They really should make that priority number 1 because the game is so broken atm. 

[(PSN)Firebrandd]

2 hours ago, (PS4)VauhtiVeikko said:

I hope people will vote with their wallets. That's the only thing that matters really. Don't buy plat or access until The Curse is fixed. They really should make that priority number 1 because the game is so broken atm. 

They are already starting to vote with low login numbers. 

[TwoWolves]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)Firebrandd said:

They are already starting to vote with low login numbers. 

Proof? Sources! We need sources so we have actual facts to use as heat-seeking missiles of fiery truth-napalm that will set the Void on fire with--wait, I just woke up so this might be the lack of coffee talking...

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

5 hours ago, (PS4)ShiinGlacier said:

Came back 2 weeks later to check the state of things and it seems it’s just like when I left, and that is DE simply telling us to “get used to it”.

The latest responses from DE have been, we recognize we made a mistake and we're working on fixing it. They're actively making changes, but those take time. This isn't a change they can just snap their fingers and make right.

Yeah, they're going to lose people because of this because it's legitimately bad. But DE is no longer saying "get used to it".

It feels like people are conflating that they can't do something with they won't do something. They can't fix this quickly. It's not that they aren't trying to.

[(PSN)corpusbonds]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

The latest responses from DE have been, we recognize we made a mistake and we're working on fixing it. They're actively making changes, but those take time. This isn't a change they can just snap their fingers and make right.

Yeah, they're going to lose people because of this because it's legitimately bad. But DE is no longer saying "get used to it".

It feels like people are conflating that they can't do something with they won't do something. They can't fix this quickly. It's not that they aren't trying to.

I have to agree. I saw Steve’s post and felt bad lol.

 But before anyone says anything, I despise the cursor as well. When it first came out (before re-adding the hotkeys) I literally had an anxiety attack because everything took longer and was jumbled up for me, and remained like that for a bit. But they have been fixing it (see hotkeys), and right now the cursor is (for me) tolerable.

 There’s still some issues with it (warframes not rotating, cursor becoming ‘stuck’) and some improvements they need to make, but as mentioned by @(PS4)FurryZenJustice, it’s not something that’s going to happen ASAP. We just gotta give them a bit more time.

[(PSN)Firebrandd]

1 hour ago, TwoWolves said:

Proof? Sources! We need sources so we have actual facts to use as heat-seeking missiles of fiery truth-napalm that will set the Void on fire with--wait, I just woke up so this might be the lack of coffee talking...

Coffee is freshly brewed. Creamer is in the fridge, coffee cups are in the cabinet above the coffee maker, kolaches are on the counter. Make yourself at home. 

[(PSN)ShiinGlacier]

2 hours ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

The latest responses from DE have been, we recognize we made a mistake and we're working on fixing it. They're actively making changes, but those take time. This isn't a change they can just snap their fingers and make right.

Yeah, they're going to lose people because of this because it's legitimately bad. But DE is no longer saying "get used to it".

It feels like people are conflating that they can't do something with they won't do something. They can't fix this quickly. It's not that they aren't trying to.

If this is a change that can’t be undone easily they should have thought this through before forcing this on console players. Clearly they didn’t have this kind of common sense lol. Now players are pissed and some leaving, like me, while they keep saying “we are sorry we are fixing it”. Someone said here before that the fix for this is simple, make the system back like what it was, and that’s the truth, lol. 

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)ShiinGlacier said:

If this is a change that can’t be undone easily they should have thought this through before forcing this on console players. Clearly they didn’t have this kind of common sense lol. Now players are pissed and some leaving, like me, while they keep saying “we are sorry we are fixing it”. Someone said here before that the fix for this is simple, make the system back like what it was, and that’s the truth, lol. 

There is no magic development process that will find all the problems before you start development. In fact the main development ideology right now is Agile which is all about getting early feedback on features. My guess is that they ran out of time to implement the feedback. Or they ignored it because they were convinced in their own idea. Either way, it stinks.

But, I don't know who said it would be easy to put back (though easy could be relative). But it's going to take time. The only people who can definitively tell you if it's going to be easy or not are the developers who are actually going to be working on it. But based on my personal experience, this will take weeks, but not days to fix.

[(PSN)ShiinGlacier]

1 minute ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

There is no magic development process that will find all the problems before you start development. In fact the main development ideology right now is Agile which is all about getting early feedback on features. My guess is that they ran out of time to implement the feedback. Or they ignored it because they were convinced in their own idea. Either way, it stinks.

But, I don't know who said it would be easy to put back (though easy could be relative). But it's going to take time. The only people who can definitively tell you if it's going to be easy or not are the developers who are actually going to be working on it. But based on my personal experience, this will take weeks, but not days to fix.

Like I said, if this was something that’d be hard to change rapidly then they should have tested it throughly, preferably with console players. And imo it’s clear that it wasn’t the case.

they rushed a crappy change for... what?

More than 2 weeks and the only good change I’ve seen when I logged on yesterday was still the shortcuts they put back some time ago, even the leave squad button that have been pointed the day the update hit haven’t been solved. 

All this makes me fell like they didn’t care about console players at all.  

Btw, can I get a link to this Steve post you guys mentioned? Thanks in advance.

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ShiinGlacier said:

Like I said, if this was something that’d be hard to change rapidly then they should have tested it throughly, preferably with console players. And imo it’s clear that it wasn’t the case.

they rushed a crappy change for... what?

More than 2 weeks and the only good change I’ve seen when I logged on yesterday was still the shortcuts they put back some time ago, even the leave squad button that have been pointed the day the update hit haven’t been solved. 

All this makes me fell like they didn’t care about console players at all.  

Btw, can I get a link to this Steve post you guys mentioned? Thanks in advance.

If we don't see any more hotfixes this week, then we're not going to see anything until they push Sacrifice to Cert. It may be that further changes are going to require a Cert-cycle and that's why we're not seeing them.

There are certain types of changes that trigger a re-cert. My guess is the buttons shortcuts were in a configuration file and didn't trigger a re-cert, but adding new UI elements or other significant changes will. So, if I had to put money down, I would say that we'll see something more significant in about 2-3 weeks.

[(PSN)corpusbonds]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)ShiinGlacier said:

Like I said, if this was something that’d be hard to change rapidly then they should have tested it throughly, preferably with console players. And imo it’s clear that it wasn’t the case.

they rushed a crappy change for... what?

More than 2 weeks and the only good change I’ve seen when I logged on yesterday was still the shortcuts they put back some time ago, even the leave squad button that have been pointed the day the update hit haven’t been solved. 

All this makes me fell like they didn’t care about console players at all.  

Btw, can I get a link to this Steve post you guys mentioned? Thanks in advance.

Was on his Twitter, if you have it you can search it. 

 

[(PSN)ShiinGlacier]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)jaegerbombtastic said:

Was on his Twitter, if you have it you can search it. 

 

Thanks for the info!

Actually I saw and replied to this back when he posted it and I still followed him and I gotta say i lol'ed at it, seeing that they immediately aknowledged that they messed up and already were asking for "constructive criticism" and it was already given almost instantly, "get rid of this cursor", yet they came up with the "we can't go back" narrative back then.

And imo it was funny that they asked for "focused suggestions". I'm not from the IT, programming, making games area, I play games to have fun and unwind, so I felt almost like they were asking us to do their jobs.

[(PSN)Firebrandd]

"Get rid of the cursor!" is a petulant demand, one which I am guilty of making. "Constructive criticism" is pointing out the bugs you have encountered and the parts of the UI you find frustrating.  "Focused suggestions" are things you've liked previously in WF and in similar games and would like to see brought back or implemented.  DE cannot respond to our demands of revert it if our conversations do not give them ideas on how to do it. 

[Darth_Nox]

Now Prime > Umbra. Just great, another nerf.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Darth_Nox

[TwoWolves]

@[DE]Steve Here's a "focused" suggestion for you: How about you get rid of that butt-ugly diamond cursor and just use the cursor from the PC version? It's a much cleaner-looking arrow and visually isn't as distracting as that horrid diamond. That would be one suggestion. The other would be to increase the default scrolling speed marginally so that it feels "snappier."

[(XBOX)ManicZanic]

Another bug to report. 

there are no longer trails left behind by items on the ground. You can no longer mark mods or loot that you picked up. My team has so far lost out on forma, scimitar parts, and resource boosters because of this. I am not the fastest typer on Xbox so I usually just mark and run now I have to mark a general spot duck into a hidey-hole and type a message while hoping my team looks at chat and doesn't rush the exit.

[(PSN)ShiinGlacier]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Firebrandd said:

"Get rid of the cursor!" is a petulant demand, one which I am guilty of making. "Constructive criticism" is pointing out the bugs you have encountered and the parts of the UI you find frustrating.  "Focused suggestions" are things you've liked previously in WF and in similar games and would like to see brought back or implemented.  DE cannot respond to our demands of revert it if our conversations do not give them ideas on how to do it. 

Oh, thanks for pointing out the differences, and I mean it, no sarcasm. He should have put in more clearly like you did, because what I understood from it is what I said on my previous post. But still I stand by what I said, that I liked MUCH MORE how the UI worked before, so that'd be my focused suggestion, as ideias on how to do it... now I'll be honest and say I don't have a clue, because like I said before I'm nowhere near the IT/programming/game making industry so I have 0 know-how, lol.

Funny thing, i'm watching the PS4@4 now on Twitch and Danielle just mentioned that Sacrifice is coming to consoles on july, which will be like 1 month later than PC? That's at least weird, because from what I remember one of the excuses for pushing cursor on console was to make an unified thing so they could push content for consoles faster, which so far (Sacrifice) isn't making any difference (1 month at least from PC to console, that's what it used to be, isn't it?).

[(PSN)Unstar]

Hi DE,

I used to play Warframe every day with few exceptions.  As a person who deals with anxiety on a daily basis, it was my go-to way to relax.  And I miss it.  I haven't been able to play lately (beyond signing in for my login bonus).  I want to make it clear that I'm not forgoing playing in some bizarre attempt to hurt DE; rather, I'm not playing because the frustration from feeling like I'm fighting against the UI to do simple things I used to take for granted literally causes me distress.  During the few times I've tried to play recently, my anxiety symptoms have rapidly heightened, which made me realize that for my own well-being, I needed to take a break.  What was once my go-to stress reliever is now a stressor that I feel like I have to avoid.  That sucks.  There's a Tenno-shaped hole in my life.

I don't want to frame this as DE being bad.  I don't want anyone at DE to feel guilty.  But I do want to share what I'm going through, maybe just so I won't feel like I'm going through it alone.  I know you're working towards solutions.

I think you've already got a bag full of great suggestions, so the only thing I want to add is that its my personal hope that getting the console UI back on track is the top priority.  All the new quests, weapons, and Warframes in the world don't do me any good if I can't play the game.

I know you're all probably focused on Tenno-Con and PC Sacrifice bug-fixes, but I hope you'll give us some kind of update on what to expect regarding the UI and its timeline soon.

Wishing you the best, and can't wait to be back in the game,
Unstar

 

[(XBOX)ChewyAM]

9 hours ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

In fact the main development ideology right now is Agile which is all about getting early feedback on features. My guess is that they ran out of time to implement the feedback.

It is unclear that DE implements the Agile process / workflow at all.  A central tenet of Agile is to produce working software, in smaller increments, largely based on feedback.  

Anyone who played on console on Day 1 of this reticle update, knows with crystal clear clarity that little testing was done (on console at least) to make this "working"; in fact, it hardly could be called passable at that time.

Have there been updates? Sure, one update after initial rollout that made the reticle somewhat usable.  There are still many, many issues to fix, or even acknowledge and address.

I think we can all agree that:

a. The rollout was clearly bungled - handled in the absolute worst possible way.  (Little/no testing on console, rolled out shortly before Tennocon and still only one update to address the issues).

b. Information flow from Warframe users has been incredible and overwhelmingly negative (1744 posts to this thread - Warframes' absolutely biggest thread EVER, and still counting), while DE has communicated very little on this mega-thread (leaving twitter and other venue's out of this point).  This fact alone has exasperated and hit the community hard, alienating a lot of people.

c. The Xbox @1 and PS4 @4 streams since the update have also been very light on detail and never really truly engage the core audience on this MAJOR issue.  Huge missed opportunity to engage the core audience about this problem, every single time DE has had a stream.  Telling people we are aware of the issues and working on it, then immediately going on with the rest of the stream is terrible.  This is HARDLY engaging the community and helping us to understand.  Where is the community outreach?  Where is the customer relations outreach on a clearly DE botched debacle?

d. This rollout was not worth all of the next gen UI / new content promises.  All this has compiled into clearly damaged Warframe's base.  I can only speak for myself, but I think I can safely state that I'd rather wait on the new UI, wait on the Sacrifice and wait on all other new content (Limbo prime, etc.), just to get this issue resolved.

Additionally, if they truly were leveraging Agile methodologies, simultaneous releases could nearly be achieved (DE could release any given release on all platforms simultaneously with the only bottleneck being the MS and Sony certification process -  nothing can be done about that).  I personally don't see DE doing this, since from my perspective, DE uses the PC platform for bug fixing to release an update and after an update has been made solid enough, then it is released to console platform for cert/distribution.  I may be wrong on this, but it sure does look that way.

Also, I would love to see a developer scrum, live streamed - it would really give people insight on the development process that the current bi-weekly Dev Stream could never convey!  :)

@[DE]Steve , @[DE]Megan , @[DE]Danielle , @[DE]Rebecca

At this point, I would like to put myself out there, putting my "money" where my mouth is.  I offer DE my time, effort and Xbox One to help in the effort, going forward on console development/testing.  I am currently unemployed and have the time to put into helping out.  I want to be clear - I am not asking for money or anything else.  I just want to help out on fixing all these issues.  If DE is short on hands, I offer myself and my experience as a desktop OS image Engineer and SysAdmin.  

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by (XB1)ChewyAM
Corrected some punctuation issues.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2018-06-18 at 6:05 AM, (PS4)HarigeVINCE said:

Do you realise why you're annoying everyone in here? You keep defending DE with wrong information. Get your head out of the sand please. And no the patch wasn't a 'huge improvement', just a tiny little one. Almost everything is still annoying, I could make a whole list.

If DE would've told us they would work on a toggle or just any way to get the old UI logic back, we wouldn't be complaining like this. It has nothing to do with instant gratification at all. It's not a matter of 'when' it will be fixed, but 'if' it will be fixed at all.

If we don't keep calling them out on this obvious mistake, they won't bother fixing this mess on console. You must be new here I guess?

You sure you quoted the right person there? 

 

1) first part is an ad hominem and not worthy of any response other than "that's an ad hominem attack which suggests that the rest of your points will be weak, or wrong". 

2) prove what I said was wrong. I don't think that you will be able to. 

3) I was online and playing when the update rolled out. The patches are a huge improvement over what I experienced that morning. 

4) honestly some people would complain no matter what happens. We both know that. I am not saying anything about your right to complain, just that some complaints lead to improvement and some lead to spurious ad hominem attacks. If you look back at my earlier posts you can see which one I'd rather mine be. 

5) seeing as how we're currently experiencing fixes and more were mentioned to be coming in today's live stream, I'd stick with "when". If you are myopic enough to think that only one possible solution exists to the problem we're facing, I feel very sorry for you. That won't stop me from appreciating the improvements that are allowing me to go back to playing a game I enjoy. 

Nobody said to stop calling them out, but sounding like a stuck record playing the same note over and over won't get anything done. 

 

Maybe you can show a noob how to use this thread to constructively highlight the specific parts of the game environment that are hampering your ability to enjoy the game to the fullest? 

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2018-06-17 at 9:09 AM, (XB1)psyops6 said:

Was that post to you? Are you DE[DANIELLE]? People need to learn to let DE answer for themselves. That's why this thread spins round and round as it has. Too many people want to reply to posts that are not directed at them. Why do I want to post results to a poll that is still tallying? It was merely a display of margin at this time... Again, please let DE respond so that we may be enlightened.

Sorry mate, I figured that you seemed to be in a bit of a rush to get what you wanted. If you weren't you might have enlightened yourself by reading the replies from DE staff dealing with the issue. You might even have read the responses from others that explain why they might have trouble rolling back the update or creating a simple toggle. I was under the impression that the main reason for the thread spinning round and round was people's apparent inability to actually pay attention for more than a couple of minutes and general unwillingness to actually read stuff in the thread they were responding to. 

I apologise whole heartedly for offering you the result of my having replied with obvious answers to your post. I understand now that you didn't want to do any of that, and would rather wait for a response. Of course, I see now, that means that you must be a very patient person and waiting months, years or even decades for what you are demanding will be a trivial matter to one of your very unusual temperament. 

 

Hope you have a good one. 🙂

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

18 hours ago, (PS4)VauhtiVeikko said:

I hope people will vote with their wallets. That's the only thing that matters really. Don't buy plat or access until The Curse is fixed. They really should make that priority number 1 because the game is so broken atm. 

Based on the improvements I already saw and what they said we could expect in the near future, I did vote with my wallet. I expect to be doing it some more in the next few weeks. 

 

Unfortunately our votes seem to be for different sides of the fence. 😞

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

If Steve wants constructive feedback, someone tell him to read this goddamned thread.

It cannot be understated how much accurate clicking is a hindrance for console Cursor UI design.  Sure, in the game, I might be aiming and cracking off some headshots, but headshot accuracy shouldn't be something I am required to do for menus outside of the game's action.

A lot of the time the shoulder button tabbing (L1, R1 for us PS4 folks) is malfunctioning and I have to do dopey things like actually cursoring over to the Riven Mods tab to click it.  This kinda thing does not belong on consoles.

Another poster made an excellent point earlier (pardon my missing your name and being too lazy to look back for it) - nobody was complaining about CURSORS! this whole time, since it did function in some places like the Solar Map.  When the CURSORS! hit our menus we developed a massive interaction problem.