To Nuke, or Not to Nuke?

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

A never ending argument in this forum is the Pro-Nukes and the Anti-Nukes. 

 

You would be forgiven if you thought i was I was referring to Donald Trump. Sadly I am not referencing the cheeto on this occasion. 

 

Both sides of the argument have VERY valid points. However both sides also tend to have terrible suggestions for a fix. 

 

Certain examples ive heard from both parties:

- “play solo or recruit a squad”

- nerf all the nukes

- git gud scrub (not verbatim, but let’s face it, that is something thrown around in the topics)

 

Now, these constant posts are getting no one anywhere real quick. All that happens is certain popular nuke frames get changed, fixed or nerfed, people complain for a week or two, then find another nuke to play. Rinse and repeat. (Seriously, I was livid when Nukong got fixed, but then I started using Volt, Saryn, Nyx, And Equinox as nukes. Never did get into using Trinity though)

 

As I was saying, what the community actually has to do is reach a middle ground between themselves and make that the focus, so that DE can make both parties happy. 

 

Those of us with 1,500+ hours in this game have very little left to do except continuous eidolon hunts, acquire prime junk for ducats, wait for new frames and primes, and sortie. I can’t speak for everyone, but I know the group of friends that I play with, and from what I have witnessed while playing is that a large quantity of players want to do these things as quickly and efficiently as possible. 

 

Now, a responsible and respectful Pro-Nuker would realize that this type of gameplay can be frustrating to play with and would be better advised to utilize this play style with a organized group. 

I should mention at this point that I am very, very much Pro-Nuke if it wasn’t obvious. But I’m also respectful enough to realize that it is boring as balls to stand there unable to get kills (though I love being power leveled). 

An easy solution would be for Nukers to play with pre-organized squads, and those who wish to not nuke or not be carried are free to enjoy public matchmaking. 

However we don’t live in a perfect world and everyone believes that they are the only ones who matter. 

Warframe is a heavy grind game. Frustratingly so. There are always people complaining about drop rates of things. This is where you’re nukers come in. It would 100% be more fun to utilize all four aspects of your arsenal (companion not counted here) when doing forty waves of Io to acquire the necessary Meso and Neo relics you need for something. However, you’re not guaranteed to get the relics you need. You’re not guaranteed to get relics at all. 

“You’re not limited to a time frame to get these primes though!”

well, you kind of are. For two reasons, which I’m sure may seem a bit weird at first. 

1. On Tuesday (Wednesday for us Australians) Limbo, Pyrana and Destreza Prime arrive. Dozens of people will be successfully trying to sell sets of these new primes for the first few days for 300+ plat. But that’s only for the first few days that he’ll be worth that much. Then he’ll go down to 70 once the hype dies down. (Seriously, the only thing worse in this game than the bugs is how predictable the trading market is). People want free plat and people want free plat fast. 

 

2. On that same day Nekros Prime goes in the Vault. As does Tigris and Galatine Prime. Which means that in two years time, it will be Limbo’s time to be vaulted. (Ngl, I started playing right before Banshee Prime was released, and part of me is having a mini-panic attack at the fact she will get vaulted in six months). So for people who refuse to buy plat, and had terrible luck with RNG they may not ever get Nekros, tigris and Galatine prime. 

 

So, here’s my solution to the To Nuke, Or Not To Nuke question. 

 

Improve drop rates. Make RNG less painful. Give us incentive to play multiplayer rather than solo. Give us incentive to work as a team rather than hoarding all the kills. Make the rewards for Sortie be based off of how well you did rather than RNG. Give people an incentive to improve. Make the entire gameplay more efficient and less tedious. THEN I believe Nukers won’t mind if Saryn can’t wipe out an entire map in one second. THEN I believe people will do ESP with a Nezha, an Oberon, a Nidus and a Frost (my two most, and my two least played frames). 

 

Warframe is very quickly losing players. Including Founders. I’ve asked many veteran players and founders who I’ve come across in my time why they no longer play and the answer is almost always the same. 

“There’s nothing to do, and what there is to do, the rewards are mediocre at best”. 

 

[Kthalu]

^ this ^

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

1 minute ago, Kthalu said:

^ this ^

Thank you. Believe it or not that post took two hours to write. It’s now 6:30am and I have uni in three hours. I go sleeps now? Haha

[(XBOX)Eminem2420]

I'm not sure about the losing players part, but i do like your post otherwise. I always switch my playstyle to better fit the squad i'm with. I find that it works better for everyone involved if a player is willing to adapt to better fit in with the other players in the squad. As for nuke frames in general, i really don't care to much either way tbh. I like being able to nuke entire maps if i am playing something particularly boring or tedious. It helps to get it done quicker. There are times where i like to take my time and play a frame that is a bit unconventional. I always do this solo so i can do what i please if i want to do that though.

Edited June 13, 2018 by (XB1)Eminem2420

[Shiichibukai]

Sorry but warframe has always been nuke kinda game, its what draws in alot of ppl. That power to clear the whole map with your arsenal is just incredibly fun. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

Honestly, nuking itself is fine. Nuking CONSTANTLY is what causes problems. The same applies to CC; locking down all the enemies on the map is fine, but when that lock can last 100% of the time without enemies being able to fight back you run into problems.

The best solution (and best compromise) is to rework the energy system and energy economy so that:

a) nukes and map locking CC are reasonably limited

b) less overwhelming powers (e.g., Fireball) are relatively unlimited

This keeps everyone relatively happy. Players can still go on power-trips by obliterating crowds in a split second, but they can't block out team participation by doing it constantly.

It would also serve as a basis for less cheesy game balance and slightly more generous rewards tables.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

And how exactly does that fix the issue?

The issue has really nothing to do with Drop Rate, it's not RNG neither, it's play style ;
Players want to do things quickly and without any effort, they'll get rewarded none the less and even if they DO get what they want, they'll still go for more because it's a source of platinum income. ( As you've said yourself ) ( And as other players below you post proved )
 

I'm tempted to say you've read the cycle of prime wrong if you feel threatened by the "Time Limit" on Prime item.
And at that point, it's also necessary to say that if those are your arguments, then your solution falls short of nothing because we're back to zero.

->Improving drop rate and re-arranging RNG in order for it to practically give you all the goodies if you perform better is literally spelling "Please nuke for reward" unless you somehow manage to compare Nezha with "Insert Any Nuker Here".
This means that no matter what you do there's hardly going to be a middle-ground in contribution because Nuke spam out-perform in every single category.
Nukers are gonna nuke and other frames are gonna sit back and wait with nothing to do. -- What does increased loot/reward change for this situation?

-> It ironically also spells out "There’s nothing to do, and what there is to do, the rewards are too common at best".
Which is almost the same as what you've said above in the opening post.
We're drowning in resources, drowning in mods, drowning in endo and now with Elite Onslaught we're drowning in Traces and upgraded relics.
Asking to get those more easily only makes it easier to drown in grind. -- What does increased loot/reward change for this situation other than make it worst?

-- Put simply, as DiabolusUrsus said, the real problem here is Abuse of Nuking and that is the result of a badly managed energy system.
The energy freedom allows for Perma-nuking,
it allows for Perma-CC of the entire map,
it allows invulnerability at all time
and the maximum amount of damage based off of Powers at all time.

->It makes players play the game without playing.

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[Soketsu]

To play 30 minute to get your loot ? To play 10 minutes to get your loot ? Endless mission going to be fun without the abilty to clean some pack x)

But yeah, let's impose to everyone else the right to deafeat one target by one target in defence missions

Edited June 13, 2018 by Soketsu

[-.SP.-G43riel]

57 minutes ago, GrimMonsoon said:

So, here’s my solution to the To Nuke, Or Not To Nuke question. 

 

Improve drop rates. Make RNG less painful. Give us incentive to play multiplayer rather than solo. Give us incentive to work as a team rather than hoarding all the kills. Make the rewards for Sortie be based off of how well you did rather than RNG. Give people an incentive to improve. Make the entire gameplay more efficient and less tedious. THEN I believe Nukers won’t mind if Saryn can’t wipe out an entire map in one second. THEN I believe people will do ESP with a Nezha, an Oberon, a Nidus and a Frost (my two most, and my two least played frames). 

that is not a solution, you already have incetive enough to play multiplayer your concern fall more on the side of pubs X private squads. The only missions that one may be inclined to do solo are spy and rescue missions. It can be kinda boring to sit out while a saryn or volt kill everything around, but its not exactly a problem for most people who end up in a group like that, the problem i've been reading recently a lot is that those room wipers complain that the others in the squad are afk/doing nothing for the team when they are killing the room, which by that alone is a dumb complaining. The easiest solution would be for those people complaining, be it from either the nuke side or anti-nuke, to join a premade team because you can't really complain when joining PUBs, everybody has a playstyle.

Improving drop rates also wont help at all, it would make the in game market suffer even more with a shower of itens and mods.
But how would be the rating of "how good you did" ?  people already are hungry for kills, and some warframes aren't made to kill entire rooms, it would be really hard to set "who did better"  like that. 

_{your two least warframes are weird picks, as they are ones of the most picked or most that i usually see around everytime.}

Edited June 13, 2018 by -.SP.-G43riel

[RogueVoxel]

1 hour ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Warframe is very quickly losing players. Including Founders.

 

[Klokwerkaos]

3 hours ago, GrimMonsoon said:

As I was saying, what the community actually has to do is reach a middle ground between themselves and make that the focus, so that DE can make both parties happy. 

This is impossible.  Compromise means nobody walks away happy.  Frankly the nerf criers can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.  I don't want them to be happy I want them to shut up or leave.  Not sorry, no forgiveness.  They can play solo or put their own groups together and they are too self important to think they should have to.

3 hours ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Now, a responsible and respectful Pro-Nuker would realize that this type of gameplay can be frustrating to play with and would be better advised to utilize this play style with a organized group. 

Then they can leave and recruit their own group or play solo.  I don't care.  I'm sick of the nerf screamers crying until they get their way, they won't be happy until it's just them playing just how they like in the most generic and mediocre fashion possible, I really don't know why they don't just go play destiny 2 where everyone is the same and the game is boring as crap, they'd be much happier I'm sure.  They can go die in a fire.  Frankly I recruit my own meta groups anyway half the time just because I don't want their undergeared butts in my group, killing my farm rate.

3 hours ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Improve drop rates. Make RNG less painful. Give us incentive to play multiplayer rather than solo. Give us incentive to work as a team rather than hoarding all the kills. Make the rewards for Sortie be based off of how well you did rather than RNG. Give people an incentive to improve. Make the entire gameplay more efficient and less tedious. THEN I believe Nukers won’t mind if Saryn can’t wipe out an entire map in one second. THEN I believe people will do ESP with a Nezha, an Oberon, a Nidus and a Frost (my two most, and my two least played frames). 

All of that goes against the business model.

3 hours ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Warframe is very quickly losing players. Including Founders. I’ve asked many veteran players and founders who I’ve come across in my time why they no longer play and the answer is almost always the same. 

I don't know how serious I can take this... the cry is always "Warframe is dying/dead" but it's still here.  Unless you have exact stats for the last three quarters and relative figures for comparison I'm not sure I can swallow this load.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

2 hours ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

that is not a solution, you already have incetive enough to play multiplayer your concern fall more on the side of pubs X private squads. The only missions that one may be inclined to do solo are spy and rescue missions. It can be kinda boring to sit out while a saryn or volt kill everything around, but its not exactly a problem for most people who end up in a group like that, the problem i've been reading recently a lot is that those room wipers complain that the others in the squad are afk/doing nothing for the team when they are killing the room, which by that alone is a dumb complaining. The easiest solution would be for those people complaining, be it from either the nuke side or anti-nuke, to join a premade team because you can't really complain when joining PUBs, everybody has a playstyle.

Improving drop rates also wont help at all, it would make the in game market suffer even more with a shower of itens and mods.
But how would be the rating of "how good you did" ?  people already are hungry for kills, and some warframes aren't made to kill entire rooms, it would be really hard to set "who did better"  like that. 

_{your two least warframes are weird picks, as they are ones of the most picked or most that i usually see around everytime.}

I dunno about you but I have no incentive to play with other people when there’s no mission type at any level I can’t do solo. 

 

In terms of reward balance ruining the market, the market and in game economy should never be a higher priority than actual gameplay. 

And in terms of being rewarded based on how well you played, I don’t mean “you have five thousand kills, here’s a legendary core.” More kills does not equal better. Take Devil May Cry for example. You could kill every enemy in game with Ebony & ivory and only get a C rating for combat. Why? Because you only did one thing. You didn’t do anything that takes skill. Throw some melee combos and switch between your guns and be dodge rolling outta the way and you’ll get an SSS+

 

i find Frost to be redundant. Anything he can do someone else can do better. 

And Nidus is the one Warframe I haven’t been able to play well. Mostly cause whenever I try to get stacks people attack my larvae, so I stopped trying to play him. 

[Checht]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Honestly, nuking itself is fine. Nuking CONSTANTLY is what causes problems. The same applies to CC; locking down all the enemies on the map is fine, but when that lock can last 100% of the time without enemies being able to fight back you run into problems.

The best solution (and best compromise) is to rework the energy system and energy economy so that:

a) nukes and map locking CC are reasonably limited

b) less overwhelming powers (e.g., Fireball) are relatively unlimited

This keeps everyone relatively happy. Players can still go on power-trips by obliterating crowds in a split second, but they can't block out team participation by doing it constantly.

It would also serve as a basis for less cheesy game balance and slightly more generous rewards tables.

^This

And from DE's themselves

"we don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game"

https://www.warframe.com/news/the-remote-observer-vol-14

@Kotsender_Quasimir has a nice thread discussing a revamp to energy economy too

Hopefully they address this in the coming Sacrifice update.

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

5 minutes ago, Checht said:

^This

And from DE's themselves

"we don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game"

https://www.warframe.com/news/the-remote-observer-vol-14

@Kotsender_Quasimir has a nice thread discussing a revamp to energy economy too

Hopefully they address this in the coming Sacrifice update.

I quite enjoy having EV, and having my pizzas. Don’t take them away from meeeeee. 

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

1 hour ago, RogueVoxel said:

Edited June 14, 2018 by GrimMonsoon
Photo of Warframe stats didn’t work for some reason

[yles9056]

The energy system in Warframe is actually very old.

At first, energy was rare overall. Because of that, warframe abilities are supposed to be op. They are like nuke bombs in scrolling shooters game, which are powerful, has no cooldown, but limited uses.

Now we have a lot of powerful mods like Fleeting Expertise, Primed Continuity, Primed Flow and so on. We also have more ways to gain energy. People can nuke or cc the entire room as many times as they want as long as they have the right gears/mods.

So is this a bad thing? Can't say for sure. Players love being powerful. At the same time, people complain the game lacks real challenges.

Edited June 14, 2018 by yles9056

[-.SP.-G43riel]

3 hours ago, GrimMonsoon said:

find Frost to be redundant. Anything he can do someone else can do better. 

 And Nidus is the one Warframe I haven’t been able to play well. Mostly cause whenever I try to get stacks people attack my larvae, so I stopped trying to play him. 

warframe is not a matter of who can do it better, its a matter of play style. Otherwise everybody would use the same frames.
 

[YUNoJump]

3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

-snip-

This sounds less like an actual argument and more like "we can't have compromise because I don't want it". Compromise isn't about making everyone unhappy, it's about balancing out happiness, so that everyone is the same level of happiness, rather than one group being completely unhappy and another getting whatever they want. People might not be as happy as they were, but if they are willing to accept the way things are (which I assume you aren't), they usually find themselves having a good amount of fun all the same. In fact, a lot of the time people find new ways to play, and have even more fun than before. Acting like compromise is bad is just refusing to accept other peoples' opinions in a setting where your opinions have no more right to power than anyone else's.

"Nerf criers can go to hell" and "They can go die in a fire" is just immature whining that won't solve any problems. Anyone that disagrees with you shouldn't exist? What gives you the right to say that? Warframe isn't your game. DE is out to make as many people happy as possible, and that often means that they have to substitute OP super-moves that destroy the whole map for more involved mechanics, which means that you often aren't as powerful as something like old Ash, Saryn or Tonkor, but you're also actually thinking about what you're doing.

Games are about challenge, if you want to play a game where you never stop winning and nothing ever gets in your way, and the only goal is even more winning, go play Cookie Clicker. Warframe isn't the game for you.

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

warframe is not a matter of who can do it better, its a matter of play style. Otherwise everybody would use the same frames.
 

i say this very thing anytime someone brings up some ridiculous comparison.

[Klokwerkaos]

4 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

This sounds less like an actual argument and more like "we can't have compromise because I don't want it". Compromise isn't about making everyone unhappy, it's about balancing out happiness, so that everyone is the same level of happiness, rather than one group being completely unhappy and another getting whatever they want. People might not be as happy as they were, but if they are willing to accept the way things are (which I assume you aren't), they usually find themselves having a good amount of fun all the same. In fact, a lot of the time people find new ways to play, and have even more fun than before. Acting like compromise is bad is just refusing to accept other peoples' opinions in a setting where your opinions have no more right to power than anyone else's.

"Nerf criers can go to hell" and "They can go die in a fire" is just immature whining that won't solve any problems. Anyone that disagrees with you shouldn't exist? What gives you the right to say that? Warframe isn't your game. DE is out to make as many people happy as possible, and that often means that they have to substitute OP super-moves that destroy the whole map for more involved mechanics, which means that you often aren't as powerful as something like old Ash, Saryn or Tonkor, but you're also actually thinking about what you're doing.

Games are about challenge, if you want to play a game where you never stop winning and nothing ever gets in your way, and the only goal is even more winning, go play Cookie Clicker. Warframe isn't the game for you.

I can decide what game is for me.

Additionally I never made the statement about my desires that is congruent with your hyperbolic representation.

Additionally compromise is not possible when to paths are diametrically opposed.

You can't make Christopher Hitchins and the Pope happy by deciding there should be equal time for both instances of history in schools.  This is at best a concession, a phyric victory and loss respectively.

You cannot make people who want to nuke maps and people who don't want map nuking happy at the same time in the same space, at best you can segregate them and allow them to live in separate peace.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Here is the problem: those who nuke do so out of convenience, so you will never convince them to inconvenience themselves with the task of forming their own groups for it. They also nuke because it is the fastest way to grind resources/affinity/mods/etc., and you will not be able to convince them to take the slower matchmaking route of forming a group compared to the speed in which you can join a public group.

Now, let's look at the anti-nuke player. They often claim to be wanting to take their time, and to have fun while playing. Guess what? This game is a lot more fun if you go and find 3 other players with the same mindset as your own, and the probability of doing so through public matchmaking is very slim. This means that forming your own group is likely the best option, and since you aren't worried about time, you can take the extra time to build a group you like.

So the argument from the nuke side of "Make your own party" actually makes sense from a logical perspective. Public matchmaking is optimal for Nuke players, and there is no way to change that without drastically altering how matchmaking works, so those who wish to avoid nukers would be best served by not using public matchmaking.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

4 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

This sounds less like an actual argument and more like "we can't have compromise because I don't want it". Compromise isn't about making everyone unhappy, it's about balancing out happiness, so that everyone is the same level of happiness, rather than one group being completely unhappy and another getting whatever they want. People might not be as happy as they were, but if they are willing to accept the way things are (which I assume you aren't), they usually find themselves having a good amount of fun all the same. In fact, a lot of the time people find new ways to play, and have even more fun than before. Acting like compromise is bad is just refusing to accept other peoples' opinions in a setting where your opinions have no more right to power than anyone else's.

"Nerf criers can go to hell" and "They can go die in a fire" is just immature whining that won't solve any problems. Anyone that disagrees with you shouldn't exist? What gives you the right to say that? Warframe isn't your game. DE is out to make as many people happy as possible, and that often means that they have to substitute OP super-moves that destroy the whole map for more involved mechanics, which means that you often aren't as powerful as something like old Ash, Saryn or Tonkor, but you're also actually thinking about what you're doing.

Games are about challenge, if you want to play a game where you never stop winning and nothing ever gets in your way, and the only goal is even more winning, go play Cookie Clicker. Warframe isn't the game for you.

If Warframe isn't right for the 'cookie clicker' crowd, then why is it that they both have the same core gameplay loop? Get more resources, buy/build more stuff, then that stuff makes you get more resources at a faster pace.

The only major difference being that Cookie Clicker is infinitely scalable in its code, while Warframe is not. This is why DE relies on content updates.

Unless DE is willing to reduce the grind levels required by this game, nukers will exist for as long as the game does.

[Chewarette]

That's a Horde-Shooter Game, so if you don't nuke, what the hell are you even trying to do ? Discussing with Grineers ? Their vocabulary is quite limited for that.

The goal is to kill. You kill fast = good.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Allow me to present a view that hits the middle-road:

Change up abilities so they are just as powerful, if not more so when used correctly, and still allow for quick grind play if played correctly, but do not Nuke in as wide of a radius.

So rather than map-wipes, we have specific area wipes that can be set up and used to best effect by working with how the game wants us to play with each other.

For example, I'm a long proponent that DE should have gone with the Resonating Quake change that they mentioned in the DevStream, rather than the current iteration. In that scenario, they mentioned that Resonating Quake would become a timed deployable similar to a Zenistar disk, but Banshee could cast two of them at a time. These would be shorter range than the augmented range of a Zenistar disk, but by having two, you could cover more effective area. And if an enemy came between the two focal points (ie, not just where the ability overlaps itself, but actually on a line drawn between the two mid-points) it would deal multiplied damage due to 'resonating'.

This would change the gameplay from 'standing in the middle pressing 4' to 'going back and forth to refresh two points of ability, and then herding as many enemies as possible between them for the massive damage, maybe combo with a frame like Vauban to Vortex them into the right spot, or if you're solo use the Silence Stagger to stun enemies when they hit that point, or the Sonic Boom to knock the survivors back into it'.

More interactive, more team combo potential, but not map-wide damage.

In a similar way, you could adjust all the map-wide damage abilities. Make them more powerful, but more concentrated as a balance, make players that actively use these abilities feel like based gods among men, but keep them from affecting so large an area that the other players have no way to run around and do what they want to do.

Would that truly be so hard?

[YUNoJump]

15 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

If Warframe isn't right for the 'cookie clicker' crowd, then why is it that they both have the same core gameplay loop? Get more resources, buy/build more stuff, then that stuff makes you get more resources at a faster pace.

The only major difference being that Cookie Clicker is infinitely scalable in its code, while Warframe is not. This is why DE relies on content updates.

Unless DE is willing to reduce the grind levels required by this game, nukers will exist for as long as the game does.

Even though Warframe and Cookie Clicker are both about getting to the next big number, Warframe actually has an RPG/shooter/brawler along the way. Cookie Clicker just has...clicking. No matter what you do in CC, you are going to progress, whereas a lot of Warframe content requires you to have built and modded good enough gear to be able to get there, as well as understanding strategies to succeed with, like which frames are the best for which mission.

15 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I can decide what game is for me.

Additionally I never made the statement about my desires that is congruent with your hyperbolic representation.

Additionally compromise is not possible when to paths are diametrically opposed.

You can't make Christopher Hitchins and the Pope happy by deciding there should be equal time for both instances of history in schools.  This is at best a concession, a phyric victory and loss respectively.

You cannot make people who want to nuke maps and people who don't want map nuking happy at the same time in the same space, at best you can segregate them and allow them to live in separate peace.

Of course compromise can be possible for opposite paths. Just about every first-world government in existence has found some sort of compromise between left and right-wing, and between libertarianism and authoritarianism. Not everyone gets their exact way, but overall most people live happy lives compared to the rest of the world. The difference between Warframe and an entire country is that an entire country's decisions actually have serious consequences. Warframe is a video game.

Case in point; a frequently-used proposal is for nuke abilities to maintain their range and power, but require more input. Consider Harrow; he's considered as one of the best-designed frames in the game, because his abilities require preparation. His 1 charges his 2, his 3 gets more powerful the longer you channel it, his 4 is a great panic tool when you've just activated your 2. He has incredibly powerful abilities that are made more challenging by requiring effort, and nobody complains that "too much effort" is a problem.

Same goes for Saryn; Spores will kill everything in the game, as long as you put the effort in to make sure that enemies aren't dying to Spores alone. I don't see many people complaining that that is too much effort either.

If you want to go back the age of Ash, Saryn and Mag 1.0, where you just pressed a button and it killed everything in a room instantly, then there's nothing inherently wrong with that idea, but know that DE is actively developing away from easy nukes. They are actively trying to have the strongest abilities require more effort to use. In keeping with this, they have deliberately not touched items and abilities that are super-powered but also require effort. They have almost never touched the Tigris Prime, Soma Prime or Vauban/Nova's best abilities, because they have clear limitations. If you accept that, you're gonna have a much better time than if you constantly live in denial that anything less than your dream game is terrible.