SneakyErvin

Ugh that royally sucks. I thought we could use it all to target shards better and not be forced to face any arcane rolls. Bleh! No not more, you can get them all by running several times with fewer modifiers. So 5 with only modifiers to hit the first chest, or enough to hit the third on one run and the second on another. You sacrifice the increased chance for Tau though by reducing the research according to what they said. So a 3+2 if you dont want or can run with the 4th enabled. Yes exactly. And you can change the modifiers you want to have active after a full run, but the modifiers you can chose from are reset weekly. So if you cant handle all (or whatever may be needed for max rewards in a single run) you can first run with enought to get 3 rewards, then reduce it to match just 2 rewards on your second run, or start out testing it with a single reward run then potentially crank it up to max for T2, T3 and T4 reward stages for the remaining rewards. And looking at the mode. It seems like the missions also increase your research for each run, since each of the mission specific modifiers also have a research value tied to them. If that applies to the overall research or just the individual run is unclear. So if you can only handle the minumum it might be possible to reach up to t3 rewards with zero modifiers by just running more missions to increase the weekly overeall research. I wonder how the rolls will work across the community, if everyone gets the same frame/weapon rolls or if it's individual like Duviri, Helminth and Arbitrations.

I'm not interested in your approach to the game. I'm interested in the other, where the game creates content over time that allows us to test our builds more and more and more the further we progress, where we get a chance to fully kit ourself out and then put that to the test versus harder content. Like how I enjoy(ed) pushing my limits in Grifts in D3, testing harder Expeditions in Outriders, jumping into the next tier in Borderlands etc. to test the best setup I had access to and so on. I'm already using enough old things in WF without any need to degrade myself and remove items I've gathered. I want to use everything I've gathered together, since it allows me to combine the most things at a time. Your style would also pretty much remove my option to play the operator which I enjoy. Since lower missions are either too weak or too tough since there are too few options on the operator you can actually remove for a middle ground performace. Remove arcanes and he'll still wipe the lowest SC with a sneeze, slot in a worse amp and that still holds true, but he'll also be rather pointless to use at that point in higher SC missions. In SP I can use him to his fullest. They dont exsist though. Because when you "balance" yourself, then you also make the rewards worse, since they are intended and designed around a fast gameplay. So if I cut my kills per minute in half within survival I suddenly end up getting half the loot for twice the work, and it doesnt leave room to improve efficiency. That isnt balance, hence why we cant actually balance the game ourselves. I'd have no problem if the game slows down by design so instead of killing 100 enemies per minute I kill 50 if those 50 reward me the same as the 100 did and if those 50 incentivice and allow me to build for efficient farming beyond the avarage, so those 50 are effectively the same as the 100 were previously in all regards. Since I enjoy min-maxing, pushing builds to do better and so on, which is a massive part of my fun in addition to the farming itself. I'm not sure why you keep pushing it on us to be considerate and not you. Maybe you should stop and consider the fact that the majority of people do not share your view, that most want to get the generic missions in this soon 11 year old game over with as fast as possible. And accidentally giving them space? No, when something happens the same 6 times in a row it isnt accident. It means that the content below SP is still high enough to allow a massive AoE murder frame to murder without stealing from others and leaving them with nothing to do. And how can something get more considerate than when someone focuses on the objective(s) and mostly makes sure to keep everything debuffed for the other 3 players? You sound like the only thing that matters to you is getting kills, while everything else is of no concern to you in missions. And it's fun with Saryn too, since you can easily test and see how exaggerated the whole "I dont get to kill anything!" is. Since if my group ended up with no chance to kill it would be odd that my spores still spread while not using miasma and instead relied on nourish to spread viral through buffing the group. I dont act as if it is the right way, just as if it is the most common a popular way, which it is. I play for fun, since I enjoy that gameplay approach. You also have this odd idea that multiplayer is somehow different from solo, when multiplayer is just 4x solo. Joining groups to get more engaging gameplay is a very backwards idea, since the game only gets easier and less engaging by simply joining multiplayer, because things still have the same HP while there are 4x the dps. So even if the whole group would degrade in a scenario where they'd otherwise steal kill, there would still be someone in the group doing nothing. Degrade to 50% and only 2 players are realistically doing anything, the two first to fire more or less. Degrade to 33% and one player will still practically be left with nothing to do since the enemies are still only having the same health as solo. Or are you now also demanding that people are to use only single target? Well you just went full on inconsiderate towards anyone that likes melee and AoE, or frames etc... Oh I grew up with old school rap and hip hop here. I was honestly poking at newer artists that refer to themselves as rap and hip hop. I'm not a huge fan of rap and hip hop overall (it's really the "music" that destroys it for me, not the lyrics of the old), but I can stand/enjoy things like Wu-Tang or Method Man if it is played, or Ice-T, which I dont mind in his collab with Six Feet Under on the One Bullet Left song. And I can accept if Eminem is played. Pop (most) and the newer pop hip hop, rap and rnb is just a different abomination though, that is truely ears bleeding because it is a mix of music I have a hard time standing and horrible braindead lyrics. That artists like Kanye, Minaj, Scott and others have a following makes me question the future and survival of the human race. Or when artists the make songs like W.A.P manage to get rewards I'm like "aprils fools joke right?", "no it's real?", "whats next? 4 horsemen coming? a ship of nails sailing and giants marching? meteors dropping or just some good old fashioned zombie or alien apocalypse?". I'm fairly wide in my music although it is all hewn from rock so to speak. But it can be some Dire Straits and ZZ-Top, through AC/DC, Alice Cooper and Led Zep to the very heavy and extreme like Nile, Marduk and Watain, along with the geniusly silly or semi-silly like Alestorm. Rammstein, Soad and Helloween.

It is uhm the definition of nerfs and buff that they are targetted adjustments to something. Has zero to do with math since buffing and nerfing is not rooted in numbers only. But lol, you can simulate higher spawn rates, since you can actually use the highest content we have access to, which still needs to be playable and accessible and roughly come out on par with what it does now incase a nerf happens. Why you use a several year old piece of content to try and show something I really have no clue about. We've gotten so many other pieces of content since then that are arguably "harder". That are all either straight tied to MR aswell or they have an activity tied to them that equals something equal or being far more of a skill check/progression check than MR. So their idea of "levels" is still there tied to power in practically everything. Or do you often end up doing MR tests that equal SP circuit? Liches? And the RNG is more to mix up the meta. It is rare that it gets us to use "lower" gear since we have so many options that circumvents the system, such as really only needing 1 good pick and in the absolutely worst case we can cheese with the operator and frame we get. And again, Kuva weapons do not break the progression, since the content itself is the MR check even if the lich system is accessible at a lower MR level than the highest MR weapon. So I dont see how any of that is failing. The only thing it isnt is linear. So? What does that have to do with anything? That just shows what I've stated far earlier, that the game isnt actually a co-op game and instead a single player game with optional co-op that lacks content scaling. And are you then of the opinion I and others that prefer and love solo play should be punished with nerfs because someone decides to get carried and circumvents the difficulty? Then I guess the best of the best raid gear in say uhm WoW should also be the power of a grey level 1 item since you can effectively carry a level 1 player through the raids? Which practically applies to every single game out there. Like when I carried my friend through T13 in D3 because he wanted quick levels and gear long before he could reliably even touch that trivial content with his own character. No. But uhm... garbage isnt progression, that is kinda the whole point here. Sidegrades = massive amounts of actual garbage since they are practically the same as what you have while lacking things to make them worth swapping in. Upgrades = barely no garbage since you obtain new gear since they are effective upgrades to what you currently have. And at the end, we min-max, try new builds etc. to improve farming and prepare the best for the next content release. But like I said, WF is practically mostly a sidegrade game, it has enough of an upgrade progression still. There are plenty of generic pointless sidegrades aswell, which you apparently want even more of. Out of all the dual swords for instance I use Dual Ichor, since it adds unique upgrades not part of other dual swords, out of the staffs I use Bo, out of the hammers I use Sancti Magistar, out of the machetes I use Nami Solo. All of these result in the weapons being effective power progression upgrades compared to other weapons of their class, leaving a large amount of unused weapons within their class. That is because WF is already mostly a sidegrade progression game. So you can actually see what your idea does since it is already part of the game. The thing you pretty much fail to see is that even in sidegrades there is direct power. We have so many weapons without unique mechanics that are far less powerful due to it, even if the stats are nearly identical. My point is pretty much that a sidegrade system is not better than a vertical one and vice versa. The main difference is that a vertical system will always add new upgrades you want to chase since they are guaranteed upgrades. If that is better or not is a matter of taste. I prefer the WF approach where a mechanic can get me to use a less powerful weapon since the mechanic results in it being better. But we also have many sidegrades that end up DoA because they have some mechanic that seems super powerful in DEs mind, so the weapon itself is S#&$e, while in reality it all turns out as S#&$e since the mechanic isnt very useful either in combination with how the weapon works. Rauta being a prime example. If it was a weapon released during an earlier iteration of the melee combo system it might have filled a role, but now when we fill the combo in seconds through melee hits the whole weapon turns utterly pointless since it isnt fast at doing the unique thing it is supposed to do. Everything but SE drops pretty much, since those are more or less timed and near static. Other drops would need to be analyzed incase of a nerf to see how much slower things are dying, how much less is killed per minute, how much longer a defense rotation takes, how much longer a demo kill would take and so on. That we already have different mechanics for it doesnt matter, since they'd still need to know how much to compensate in order to implement a change. The change could either be adjusted mob tables for SP mobs, increased static drop rate or something else. It also succeeded massively as seen with the forum crying as I pointed out, which you apparently ignored for some reason. It wasnt long ago that someone made a new thread about reverting the ammo "nerfs". So yeah, DE apparently succeeded and met the goal they had in mind to combat this "disruptive" AoE thing the game was plagued with according to some.

You kinda just prove my point. You did simply not listen to what they said. What you show here is just a dev build WIP that is not decided on yet as Pablo straight out said. They are still deciding how many point you will actually need, which means they still havent made up their mind how many of these will need to actually be active, if some will grant more points than others or whatever else they come up with. They've so far said "most, or all" because they havent decided yet. All levels have a chance for a Tau (like cells), arcanes are tied to the last tier reward. And by their wording, although a bit vague, you can run it without modifications 5 times to get the 5 rewards (shard/tau/adapter) instead of running cells 2 times for 2 rewards, or you can run it once with everything active to get all 5 rewards in one go, where you also get 1 arcane. But the more modifiers you use the higher the chance to get Tau along with eventually unlocking the arcane tier reward. The main question for me is if the arcane at the highest tier is in addition to shard/adapter there. If it isnt and it replaces 1/5 rewards with an arcane I will never ever run that tier if I can instead get 5 chances at Tau shards by running modifications for one 3 reward and one 2 reward run with max weighting on Tau probability (maxing research just to the point it doesnt reach the arcane tier). Since I have absolutely zero interest in these 2 arcanes unless they come as an additional bonus ontop of everything else for running max or near max modifications. And yeah they are still determining how many points are needed and/or how many points the different modifications will add. I'm fairly sure since they still havent made up their mind that we will get the option to skip some modification and still reach the research needed, otherwise they wouldnt still be considering which way to go. They clearly see some issue with requiring all active, so considering if it is worthy of a change or not. No arcanes in T3 according to the stream. T1-3 says shard/adapter only.

No and no one implies that it works like that either. You however are only looking at the numbers and ignore everything else that goes into the mechanics of the skill. The upcoming 350% will always be there, at that value, with no variables out of your control. The current 200% might be there, but it is also bound to several rules outside of your control. At times right now you may get nothing or close to nothing from the skill, while other times you might get the full effect. With the upcoming changes you'll always get the value that the skill tells you it will give, meaning you wont end up with a pointlessly low damage increase, or none at all with a pointlessly low DR increase. The other option we had presented to us was DE fixing light sources in a few maps where they currently do not work. But at no point would this make the current skill any less fluctuating in stats to the point where the buff is next to useless in some cases. And since this is a buff that only applies to weapons you can always still replace base damage modding/arcanes for multiplicative options to combine with the new buff, if you actually think you will need to min max when you practically have a 700% base damage buff with a measly +100% strength investment on the frame. Though my main point is. Current version = not reliable, new version = 100% reliable no matter which of the two uses you want.

Seems like alot of people missed the important part of the stream that highlighted that you can ignore the categories that have really bad picks and just use your own. The chance that you need all 4 picks to be viable is minimal in order to clear the mission. This means you can ignore if several of the categories roll only bad picks, so you grab them as a bonus "dragon key" or something. Leaving you with enough room to skip one of them atleast for a choice fully out of your own desires that can clear the mission. If it ends up with enough slack in the system to skip 2 of the equipment pulls and still reach max research, well then there is really no way to fail since you'll always have the best frame for the job and the best main weapon you prefer to use otherwise. And unless this new mode restricts operator use, well... welcome to Circuit operator exploiting 2.0, now with your frame of choice to buff that operators potential to the max when the weapon pulls are bad.

I think it is a bit of an over reaction since people seem to ignore the elephant in the room that is the current (soon old) scaling based on light source damage. And in the feedback thread tap/hold was the most common suggestion overall, with some also going more into detail that they wanted to also retain the light source mechanic among other things. Which in the end would still make it an unreliable damage buff or defense buff if that part was toggled. So overall, unless you always dodge around and make sure to be fully lit, the "nerf" will like end up being an overall buff. Nowhere have DE implied that the damage would stay as is if it was always guaranteed maximum effect. It would be quite absurd considering Roar is 100% as a guaranteed damage source while Eclipse currently reaches 200%. Guaranteeing it to always be at max with the toggle would be quite silly even if it only applies to weapons. And if we compare it to Rhino, he doesnt exactly sport a multitude of damaging abilities that can benefit from roar also applying to abilities. Nor does he have any other ability to further increase the damage of those weapons he is bound to use in order to kill. So from 200% fluctuation multiplicative to 350% guaranteed additive base seems like quite a fair trade and a far more reliable skill.

That is true. But even if they communicated this I'd still vote for the tap/hold since it is guaranteed and not fluctuating based on light. I know what I get, it wont be randomly impacted by external sources, my damage output or survival will be the same when I need either no matter where I am. Which is a much greater benefit than 1-tapping an enemy more, since well I cant do it quicker than with a 1-tap.

Honestly the coming nourish nerf is a buff in my eyes. Sure it will suck to lose a bit of the energy buff, but it will be a huge improvement on the viral part since all I want that part for is to proc viral somewhat reliably, I dont need huge amounts of it, just enough so it procs without reducing the proc rate of other things. So this will be an improvement for most of my builds that use it, most notably those that use melee influence. So win-win! Oh and thank you DE.

The augment will definently get me to play Yareli. My main grip with her has been the "feel" of riding merulina and that it locks us out from melee, primary and so on. So this augment is a win on so many levels for me and I already have a few ideas on potential builds for her. I mean, the augment will allow her to retain that extra tankyness, so melee will all of a sudden be on the table, this means that a build with aquablades together with melee will be possible. Meaning that if I replace a skill on her I will no longer be left with one that barely sees any use, which was the case when I replaced merulina, since I wouldnt use aquablades since removing merulina also removed her actual tanking potential to support melee. Massive game changer mod!

Considering how strong Vex is and that Eclipse will be even stronger in addition to Mirage having an additional damage increase aswell and that the damage will now always be maxed on demand I cant really see the issue people are having with this. It's like people deciding to invest insane amounts of strengths on Sonar Banshee "cos damage!", when even at baseline it turns all weapons into absurd damage machines when hitting those weak spots. Do people except to start ½ hitting things or what? edit: I mean honestly. Mirage already deals a crapload of damage with her images active. I'm fairly sure I will use eclipse for the DR since I can actually force it now and always get full effect.

It goes beyond math, since it isnt as simple as just numbers. Which you've showed that you've missed further down in your post aswell. That is still buffing or nerfing, not buffing to nerf or nerfing to buff, since it isnt targetted, so misses the intended target of the action or targets something not intended aswell. As I said, if you buff enemy health it will also target the floor even if that wasnt intended, so those weapon below the target of the buffnerf (lol) that were never intended as targets still end up as targets since suddenly they can no longer push as far as their weaker state allowed them. Same as if you reduce health in order to help lower weapons, which also has a side effect of giving the already strong weapon the means to push even further. But if you were to actually apply a buff to the weapons that need it, only those weapons would be targetted, meaning the health of the enemies are still effectively the same. So no, clearly buff and nerf are not the same or interchangable. You show missions where AoE isnt really needed to begin with instead of showing missions were AoE is promoted. You also make the missions look rather slow and dull yes. How would those vipers or stubbas hold up in endless? And are you seriously showing it in sorties? I mean, living in the past is a thing I guess. But we are years and years and years beyond that in content we do on a regular basis, and in progression. You have to consider the highest content we can run aswell regarding how nerfs would impact the outcome there for both how long we can push and how loot is affected. I mean heh, what you show is even lightyears slow compared to Outriders, which is a tactical looter shooter and not even a horde game in that sense, nor with movement even close to that of WF. I mean it is even slow and unengaging compared to games like Shadow Warrior 2 and Borderlands to be honest. And slow would in itself not be a big issue if it was engaging, but it isnt even that. It serves both purposes. That isnt really the point though, the point is that DE wants a form of progression between lower and higher gear. While Kuva are MR5, they still come with their own limitations tied to the mode. Everything else is unlocked on the basic star chart when tied to MR, but with Kuva it further limits it through the need to be able to handle a lich/sister. Which also allows them to be more powerful since you are effectively doing a "hard" mastery rank test when you do the content. What it does? Give us an actual sense of progression. And the notion in your answer to Ayin, that horizontal progression provides you with something always just isnt true. It's as likely to be a bust as vertical progression. Since whatever sidegrade mechanic is tied to it, it may very well be worse than what you currently use, or if there are no new sidegrade mechanics tied to it, it will just be another skin compared to what you already use, so just as likely to get skipped if it isnt someones cup of tea. Though WF is both vertical and horizontal, horizontal for the most part. The vertical progression practically ends with variants and even there if there are several it is horizontal for the most part outside of the very lowest versions. Most do however have power progression tied to their horizontal benefits, since some stats are more appealing than others quite obviously since they enable specific setups that grant you more power over another. The reason we end up with so many fodder items is because they are just sidegrades that lack that little extra to make them competative to items already accessible. I wouldnt mind pure vertical progression if it also guaranteed that items are unique enough so I might want to use them, unique enough to enable a whole new build etc. But we just arent at that point. So we will get alot of uninteresting fodder no matter if we try to get stats as equal or possible or not. Which is why I think the whole idea of trying to normalize things is pointless and a waste of time, since it wont really do anything in the end in comparison to the shear undertaking it will be to go through all items. Another game did something similar and it took them about a year to sort it out, which ended up bleeding the playerbase since content releases were practically halted. According to whom? DE have already made their statement on AoE damage together with the fixes they saw fit literal years ago. I've also never really seen Limbo as disruptive, because I took some time to learn how he works and what he can do. So when I entered missions where I knew a wild Limbo is likely to appear I used frames with casting abilities, frames most often also useful for the type of objective a Limbo was good for. Sure CC is still disruptive and effectively on "1HK" levels of trivializing content. Which I think should get fixed/nerfed, since it not only trivializes missions by removing enemies as threats, it also impact mission flow if you dont have LoS ignoring AoE damage with you. Not that it happens often, just like the "issues" with AoE damage. People are making mountains out of ant hills really. We can just see it with the changes coming to Inaros aswell, and by the looks of it the design in Dante. Clearly AoE, ridiculous AoE is still very much on the table. It removes it from the question I asked instead of answer the actual question which clearly refers to what can be done now with SP as a part of the game. It's as if you have this very hard time comprehending the context of what others say in relation to what has been said earlier and what you yourself have said recently. Adjusting SP multipliers would not be a solution on its own, since as said before, you'd also need to adjust loot etc. at that point to respect our time and what the norm currently is. It is easy to say "adjust numbers" when ignoring everything else that gets affected by a simple numbers adjustment to something. Everything ties together for an end sum. Yes, I didnt notice any impact from the changes, yet according to DE it did something which was according to them the appropriate fix to the "problem" of "disruptive" AoE damage. And others clearly felt the fix, hence why we saw "bwawawawawah! zarr unusable, cernos unusable, whatever else unusable, bwawawawa revert bwawawawa nerfs!" when I kept using probo cernos, bramma, zarr and whatever else just the same as before. So uhm DE goal achieved, otherwise it would be odd with years of silence. I mean sure they've talked about re-adding self damage, but that isnt due to AoE being "disruptive", it is because they dont want the progression to reach QoL with AoE locked behind a crazy amount of login days. Since swapping self stagger for self damage wouldnt really reduce "disruptive" AoE if that was still a thing. That has already been done, so AoE issues are then solved. It currently isnt the right answer to every problem, which is why we've seen the cries from people that used it versus everything when the ammo changes went live. So again, problem solved. Or do you not consider Bramma, Kzarr and Probo as having limited ammo? Yes they clearly have those massive pools of ammo reaching insane amounts in the ballpart of 5-10 total ammo. MMORPGs mostly leave AoE pointless versus single targets, more so than making it expensive or with long CDs. They practically deal alot of damage in AoE encounters since trash tends to be fragile, so the damage that would kill the trash most often only tickles a heavy unique target, meaning it is often a waste to cast the AoE skill on that single target in the first place, both due to the cost and the time spent casting the skill. Sometimes an AoE might sync with other skills, so you use the AoE on a single heavy target in order to either increase the damage of another skill or possible proc an instant freecast of another skill each time the AoE deals damage. But there have never been a game with the "bright" idea of making AoE less attractive to use on crowds in order to increase the common use of single target instead, no the games instead create single target encounters to keep single target in your spec relevant on a regular basis. And Steven Segal should recieve acting rewards.

If you feel you might be doing things wrong based on what someone else does then the truth might be you are actually doing something wrong. No I didnt act like my way was the right way. I've only implied that it is the common and accepted way, the majority approach players take to these types of games. And we play solo if we want something specific to be the outcome, that applies to both of us. In public, the majority rules and sets the pace, we either live with that or avoid public. It is the democratic (to put it in political terms) way to handle it, so the most common playstyle decides how a public mission will turn out and be played. No one is trying to impress you. I'm simply poiting out that there is already enough diversity in playing like I (and many others) do. It's your personal view that more builds need to be used in order for things to be fun, fun which is a subjective idea that is only true to you. My fun takes the shape of what I explained, it is as simple as that. Or are you the kind of person that thinks someone is wrong for enjoying a certain genre within movies/music/books etc? Or the person that cannot bend their head around the whole "eye of the beholder" thing? Because this is just that, we find enjoyment in different things, some are more mainstream than others. You happen to not like the mainstream approach in this case, which results in you being upset at the majority of players you end up with. I dislike rap (to put it mildly) along with several other music genres, but I wont go to someones party and demand rap or any of the other genres arent going to be played if the majority at that party wants that music. I went to a public gathering, the majority sets the pace, I have to accept that since I went there, even if that means I'll leave that party slightly closer to a neanderthal in mental capacity. Yes and it is also fine in publics since most people enjoy and/or benefit from that playstyle. And no, it is fun at all times, atleast to me. So dont try to imply what you find fun is fact, since it clearly isnt, because it is subjective to everyone. I'm enforcing the idea of democracy really, the popular approach for these types of games. I also dont take all the kills. I just did Mirror Defense today in a group in order to get the bounty done by the end of objective 2 i.e gathering enough glyphs for 4x defense buffs. I did this with Saryn, with my total stripper (hue hue) build that has AoE out the whazoo, with a 9m Influence Bo Prime Incarnon, Nourish, Torid and so on. I did not hog all the kills, I played the objective (must be a shocker to someone that seems to think everything is about how much you kill?), this was with an obvious "SP build" in non-SP content. I did this 6 times over with the exact same outcome every run. I also did the GotL with my Kullervo and his bonkers build, and everyone got their share of the cake since that is how the mission works. So maybe dont do the missons of the lowest of lowest levels that are only about killing while you carry a wet noodle to fight with? I mean you talk alot about fighting alongside, but you only do the most dumb-dumb missions that have zero reason for grouping in the first place outside of speeding them up. Yes you could practically be gone if you run something like the build you brought up, because you wouldnt add anything. But with a decent build you would have had an impact without a doubt since the notion of people hogging kills is a fantasy for the most part rooted in the lowest of content the game has to offer. And the reason I think other players are of the same mindset is because it is the norm. Like I said earlier, you are a very unique individual since you are practically the first with your mindset that I've ran into throughout the last 20+ years across a multitude of these types of games and tens upon tens of thousands of hours. And another reason why I think they are OK with the playstyle is because they freely signed up to a public mission, so agreed on that anything goes the moment they clicked the button. I wont go poo flinging monkey mad if I join a PuG, do the mission, head to EZ and then have to wait for aslong as the mission took us because some guy wants to smash boxes and loot lockers. I'm perfectly fine with that since I freely joined a public run, even if it just doubled my clear time having to wait the full time at the EZ. So if I can live with things not going my way in PuGs, why cant you? Also for those that do not know this secret. Rap = ***ards Attempting Poetry. RnB = Really not Beautiful. Hip Hop = Hardly Intellectual Person Hopelessly Obliterating Poetry.

Yep, same feeling here regarding the whole RJ thing. And when people *@##$ed that "it wasnt like the sneak peek" I thought "thank the #*!%ing gods for that!" since it seemed like a slow mess with how many days they had spent "engaged" with the lich. Could of course have been made up in-game days and not actual days, but still, going by what was shown as nothing else was implied I assumed real life days. Assault would be great with the spin you mention. Regarding the charge/empower and working towards it. Yep agreed, that would be a great approach. I've always had this idea of us simply doing missions and bump into thralls to find actual intel, but DE wanted this mystic requiem thing instead, so uhm, have us find those instead on thralls, then use them to lure out the lich or something. Current system just feels like too many people were working on it and threw in all sorts of concepts each fitting better in a different system. It wouldnt work in a proper way. We can already see the mess of mixed groups in missions that have bounty versions aswell. I'd hate to see the mess of dynamic scaling etc. just in order to get everyone to play together. Not to mention SP density already set to 4 players at all times, which in itself could result in issue in groups smaller than 4 if normal and SP players get mixed. Plus we have things like Duviri with further scaling tied to the SP modifier that would impact the whole session and not consider that some would be set to non-SP.

Good you understand that. Still you fail to realize a massive thing. You assume everyone is bound to a burn out because you yourself have been there, you project that onto others as some form of reasoning why X is bad as an approach while Y is good. It just isnt how it is. I practically do not burn out, especially not from farming in games. Heck, me using the term farm and not grind should be a dead givaway regarding that. So I play the way I enjoy the game, if I didnt enjoy playing the way I do I uhm wouldnt play that way. You also seem to assume I dont use many of the things I farm, and that I must always hit the exact same efficiency. That isnt the case. I play several different frames and each of them have atleast 3 different builds I enjoy. All are also acceptably efficient to a point where I enjoy the farm. Right now my most played frame is Kullervo because he is just so increadibly fun, not only due to his insane damage potential, but due to his movement and his passives that fall perfectly inline with me enjoying melee again. But I also play Frost, with a completely different setup that is not melee focused, then a Dagath that is full "corridor/lane" wipe caster where I barely touch my weapons. I also play a Bo wielding Saryn, a punchy Atlas and a mobile whipping Khora, this mixed in with some Rhino, Protea and Garuda at times, with a side dish of Lavos, Hydroid and Citrine. All with different playstyles, which is the part I tend to want to switch out mostly in order to not run into monotony. But I never think "ugh, another survival run to grind zzZZzzzz", I think "Hmmm which loadout do I wanna farmw ith today?", where the answer has been "lets chop and stab things with Kullervo!!!" for a good while now. I'm practically always farming steel path, since I enjoy it the most and it increases the chance further to get rare loot. No reason to run SC when the density is so low that it turns the whole thing into a highly inefficient farm. And saying SP isnt balanced just isnt true, because you cant dump blank statements like that when you dont even know what the people asking for builds are looking for. Most people want to use everything they've unlocked simultaneously, so SP is balanced in that sense, since it does allow people to use and get value from everything they've currently gathered. So you need to realize that the farm does not get boring for everyone even if it did burn you out. And at the same time, consider why I should give up what I find fun so you can have more fun at the same time in content where we both signed up under the same random rules for the outcome. I mean yeah, it sucks that you wont see your fun happen as often as mine, but you are also seeking something very specific in your fun. But you have that right, just dont expect it to occur more often than it does and dont paint others out as bad people due to it. And I again want to make it perfectly clear. I have zero issues with how you want to play the game. I only have a problem with you calling others inconsiderate for enjoying what they enjoy the way they want to. I wouldnt mind you ending up in my group with any loadout at all, I would however mind if you get grumpy at me in that group for playing the game the way I like when we both join something with a random outcome. Anyways, cheers!

But you are using nerf and buff as interchangable, which they arent. So you want people to "get mad" (which it really isnt anyways). Say what you mean, simple as that. Nope, they are not identical. Since you only look at one certain outcome. This is not possible when there is a wide variety of weapons that will be impacted when they shouldnt be by the way you handle it. Buff enemy health to nerf the ceiling also results in the floor getting nerfed when it shouldnt. Just as nerfing the health at that point to help the floor would result in buffing the ceiling aswell. So no, they are not interchangable. This also covers your other example. Since there are more than 2 "issues" involved. That isnt what I'm refering to. I'm refering to where you said that it wouldnt do anything for current content when commenting on one of my comments. No one here cares if it gets harder or not. Aslong as our time is as respected as now when it comes to the overall rewards it could be as hard or as easy as they like. The only thing "hard" (we really talk spongeness here) is make it less fast paced so less WF overall. Would it matter in the end? For some. For me it would matter if the content became engaging and fun in return. If it would just be walls of health doing little in return I'd say it would be a bad change, if it would turn WF into something more like Outriders I wouldnt mind, since to me that would be fast paced, dangerous and engaging enough. Not sure what you self quote has to do with anything. You seem to be under some assumption that I dont want to see nerfs, buff and adjustments just because I dont agree with your vague approach. I'm not of the idea we need to keep a power fantasy to the point it is now. Since power fantasy can really be anything where you fight something powerful and have the means to overcome it. I just dont want to see a homogenized narrowed down arsenal in order to achieve some further equality among our gear. Low "level" items should stay low "level" and high "level" should be "high" level, it is even designed that way and adjusted with that in mind by DE, hence the MR stat adjustments for a multitude of weapons a few years back. Which you seem to ignore while posting other DE quotes at the same time. And it is the least disruptive since it actually progresses missions even when it happens to be disruptive (which is extremely rare). It is also the hardest one to adjust in order to make it both useful and not disruptive. It is for instance not disruptive in higher content, but nerfing it so it isnt disruptive in low content would kill it in higher content where it isnt a problem. Nerfing CC would have the same impact in both ends, since it isnt required to the extent it is available, so nerfing it to lock down less would end up as an equal nerf, since you dont need to account for CC having to have some form of TTK. That doesnt answer the question since that only removes SP from the whole thing. I'm asking how they should achieve it when SP is as now part of the game. Even if they had made adjustment so "SP wouldn't have ever been necesary" it would have still have been needed. Because you'd sit either with it forced on everyone through balance, or have SC too easy and people craving for something more (SP). It also again comes down to what to do with rewards and respecting our time. With SP they made it "harder" and added a loot modifier on it that we simply had to accept since there was no SP before that point. Changing SC through nerfs and adding more loot would still require it to yield practically the same loot/min as it already does, since there is a pre- and post- SC to consider at that point. Which would end up with the people currently avoiding SP having no place to go, since there is no normal version when everything has been nerfed and balanced into a single mode. Right now I can go to Pluto or Mars SP to increase my yield of specific rare, but a player not wanting to engage with SP can go to those same platest to farm that same rare versus far easier mobs, the difference is that they wont have the increased drop chance. Balancing the whole SC around a certain power level would potentially alienate those players at the same time. Unless of course you are talking about SC being simple enough still, meaning the whole balance idea was uhm pointless. And now when SP has been live for so long nerfing us to a point where it makes SC relevant and engaging is even harder, since they still need to consider respecting our time the same in SP, since it has now become a norm, and it has an expected loot yield per time spent etc. They can reduce our power to a point without impacting the respect for our time in current content, since there is indeed wiggle room, but that will really only serve future content creation where they can then balance it around that with proper risk vs reward/time in mind. Then you shouldnt say it is disruptive, since what the devs say is in relation to why the nerfs occured. So, AoE damage specifically on weapons is no longer disruptive since the changes have gone live and been live for a long time now. Not that they actually did anything really, but still, they are live so that "problem" is officially uhm fixed and explainations as to why it happened got presented. Or it simply was an issue and what we got as "nerfs" was what they saw fitting as the fix, while also thinking later on that melee could get something to help it keep better up with the rest of the intended AoE of the game that is left after the "nerfs". Or they realized that there are 2 whole seperate ways to engange with the Star Chart, where AoE is really just a problem if you are hell bent on not progressing naturally and sticking to the very very low level star chart. I mean it isnt like we've gone from SC to SP, there have been many gradual increases to content levels between that, content where AoE has not been an issue, some where insane AoE has even been promoted further. So I really think people should literally move on if they find themselves disrupted by AoE, since they have a whole freakin chart available and a couple of seperate modes where they wont get disrupted. Nope. In these types of games it is pretty much always set up as it is here, with AoE seeing most use due to killing massive hordes, then dedicated single target being used for specific encounters. It doesnt matter if you play an isometric arpg or a third person looter shooter, it is always the same when you are promoted to kill large groups of enemies as the bread and butter activity of the game. Even in MMORPGs you will nearly exclusively use AoE no matter if you are tank or dps unless you encounter a very specific enemy. No.

Yep. It would also reduce the star chart bloat we have now. The only things I'd still prefer as seperates would be SP, Arbis and Fissures, though in a perfect world each of those would just be new star chart settings, so if you toggle say SP-Fissures, everything that is occuring on the normal SC (floods, siphons and invasions) would also occur in the SP-Fissure version, same if you stick to star chart but activate the fissure setting. These would be guaranteed occurances on normal missions, you just wouldnt need to jump into a specific Siphon when a planet is near the fortress. You would just need to run the nodes that are currently "invaded". So if the Fortress is near Venus, Fossa might be a node invaded. Currently that requires you to specifically run a Siphon mission on the Fossa node, but if it is naturally occuring you would simply run Fossa and a Siphon would be part of the mission. The only random occurance would be liches, but those could be based on if you have a lich active or not, and it isnt positively needed that a lich would need to appear, but instead you use the normal star chart missions to find him by hunting thralls. So obviously some tweaks to current systems would be needed to cater to a new setup. Personally I wouldnt mind if finding the liches was a public activity and then your engagement(s) with the lich were personal on seperate "hideout" nodes. Since that would fit the system and personalize it around your own nemesis. I mean, the current showdown setup is a horrible joke in my mind. 4 random tenno banding together and all of a sudden 4 liches share the same dorm roo... uhm galleon? Like WTF. League of Evil Dumbasses. I also wouldnt mind if they remove the larva system from liches and instead simply have us piss of a lich in some other way. Then the weapon we get is of our chosing after we've killed the lich, which we'll get my raiding his armory. RNG % still, but element and weapon would simply be chosen. And if it is a time sink idea around larvas, well just add that sink elsewhere as we chase for the lich hideout, or add some other step to the engagement part of the lich specifically to put more weight on the whole nemesis thing. I mean it isnt really fun to chase for a larva with the right weapon for a longer period of time than the rest of the whole lich system takes. Not really engaging either to require a specific frame for the element you want and then just skip using that frame for the rest of the content.

The clouds kill perfectly fine in SP, and prior to the "nerf" they wiped maps on their own the moment you got a single on out, no matter which faction you faced. I literally had to chase my clouds in survival missions. Now they instead practically lock down an area as mobs keep spawning and walking into them, slowly spreading outwards the more enemies die at the edges of them. Plus, they are dual swords, so you have some insanely good single target combos that hit multiple times to proc your modded element on every hit you land as soon as Influence is up. And those Influence kills spread your clouds still, it's just clouds that cannot proc influence. So you poop out clouds 20m around you, leaving large areas for enemies to strole into in order to die and refresh the clouds where they die. And if you only face 3-5 enemies you arent running any endless I guess.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. We are in the end using the rest of the game inside lich/sister missions, so them being islands isnt really true, no more than anything else in the game where we also use everything. The one thing that is an island in WF is Kahl, since it adds no progression really, it doesnt follow regular WF gameplay, it has no progression tied to itself, no customization and no benefits from our progression elsewhere etc. Everything else though is pretty much tied together by the several systems we use and the loot we obtain from everywhere. However, liches and sisters along with invasions, siphons and floods could have been done alot better by being natural occurances in already exsisting missions to make them feel better connected to the game while also not cutting progress short for certain mission types.

The setup of Expeditions would be perfect in WF for assassination missions. However, it would be hard to make them as potentially deadly as Expeditions could be in Outriders. Is busy shooting horde of baby monsters. WHOOSH! Mother decides to join the fight by spitting fire at you. You are now dead.

Same. I'm one of those odd people that actually enjoyed (and still enjoy) defection as a mission type, and prefer arbitration and archon defense over the other types. Really hated escort missions in WoW and other MMOs. I still have unfond memories of the guy above Lakeshire in the cave. Sooooo sloooooow! And everytime another escort quest was handed to me all I could think of was that slow ass cave dweller fellow. Hmm I'd like more defection types now that I think of it. Versus grineer and corpus instead of the infested, or helping researchers escape from the void towers or a culverpocalypse inside the labs. It just sucks those few times when that fellow Larry isnt really up to snuff and gets stuck in some stairs or at a guard rail, or when Bob decides to sniff and lick every corrosive or poisonous cloud he can find. Other than that, mellow mode.

But it isnt build for SP. It is building to get the most loot per minute while farming. That it happens to be SP is just how it is now. If that mode didnt exsist I'd use the same builds elsewhere anyways since I'm here to farm and get the most loot possible for the time I spend. I dont have any interest swapping between builds to "fit" the content better, since that in itself also wastes time I could instead use playing the actual missions. You specifically called it an arbitration build, baseline or not. So I ask again, would it still be the same build according to you if you add to it?

If nerfing is what you really mean, then #*!%ing say it and dont bother with what some people may think. We are here to have a discussion, so say what you mean or say nothing at all. You saying "buff" means a whole different thing than you saying "nerf". But if you want to have people misinterpret what you say, go ahead and keep using opposite words. It seems like you prefer that so you can argue when people dont know what you mean in your head. And to make it clear, this would not be normalization. Since that occurs when you aim to even the playingfield between things. Which is not my intent, my intent is to reduce our overall power, so it would hit all types of items as needed. You also say that reducing damage and CC would open up for other mechanics... we practically only have those 2 mechanics to rely on. So what other mechanics would we suddenly see? The only thing left is sustain, but we dont have enough options for that to build for further attrition combat, since we already invest in sustain, either in the shape of enough armor+hp to simply survive, or shield gate. What I suggest wouldnt slow down the game since as I said before this would be done to pave the way for future content creation only. You were the one that earlier said it had to effect current content aswell. That is not my opinion. We have a very high power ceiling that can be reduced drastically without impacting the current game. Like I've said many times, we cant kill anything in less than 1 hit, so us overkilling things by millions and millions is pointless power. So your plan on nerfs, or is it buffs? I honestly get confused... Would result in slower gameplay, since you want to apply it, or well have it effect everything current as you've said in this thread. That is the part that I dont agree with. Then you have also talked about buffing other things, which would add more things to the upper end that then needs a nerf in return if we want future content to be more engaging. Which would really also need nerfs because you said that it should apply to all content and not just future content. So uhm catch 22 I guess. And I'm not saying the same as you regarding giving up gear. Yes it is sad, but I dont see any need to change it. Progress is more important to me than how something looks, since hunting items that are different to use, or more powerful is a large part of the fun in these games for me and many others. Yes I would love an option to change to looks I love, but I'd want that through pure skins, not through item buffing/nerfing and normalization/homogenization. You manage to bold a part and then not read it? As I said regarding the DE quote. it isnt just about AoE damage. I never said or implied that they only talked about CC or non-damaging AoE. So one might question whom is lost here. It is also not really a "problem" DE can fix when it comes to the "overbearing AoE damage abilities", since that is really just something that is relevant on the star chart. Volt is a "overbearing AoE damage" frame on the SC, then that AoE (like many other) ability turns into a laughing stock the moment you hit up anyhting remotely "high" in levels. At which point it is a CC+sustain ability. Spamshee is a wet noodle higher up, a bouncy castle simulator, Mirage scales fairly poor aswell and so on. We have a few frames with abilities that can wipe the enemy effectively higher up, few of those do it in a massive radius. Saryn doesnt even kill fast enough to leave people with nothing to do, if she did it would practically be impossible to do anything on her besides reapplying spores and spam miasma as you play solo. Yet she relies alot on weapons, and without any problem to keep spores rolling while playing either melee or ranged. And she is one of the frames that can reach isane range on her AoE damage. So how should they nerf frame AoE so people on SC can feel included while keeping the damage so it is relevant on SP and in other high content aswell? CC is probably more of an issue since it locks down maps and removes threats. It is all just star chart problems. Which is expected in a game going on year 11 and constantly adding higher content and more progress. I very rarely run into a situation where I'm struggling when surrounded by AoE usage in higher content, much less so when it comes to weapons, since there is always a place to go to find mobs. I do run into "issues" in one off missions, but that is mostly due to someone loading in faster and being ahead, and it doesnt matter what type of weapon they use at that point. They arent. What they say there doesnt really matter because it's really just blanket statements to justify the "nerfs" they added at that point in time. Which, if that #3 is true, did absolutely nothing to solve that #3 point. Because all that was done with those "nerfs" was an adjustment to ammo economy so people couldnt shoot every single thing with their AoE weapon anymore, and isntead consider using them on only crowds (which is practically everything anyways). I've yet to run into a situation where I go "oh no! my ammo!" since those "nerfs" aside from the very first mission I did right after solo. And I've had to change nothing in my "disruptive" playstyle. Also, if AoE is so disruptive heh, then why did they just add ammo-less massive AoE to melee? We now have single target weapons that kill better than any former AoE across a larger area aswell without requiring you to even aim or reload. "Oh I'll just slide in this general direction to hit a few mobs that will then wipe out everything within 20m". I mean, it was understandable when Kullervo released that he specifically recieved a bonkers AoE (cone to be precise) spread, since it was just 1 frame. But as it is now I can pick up practically any decent melee and clear enemies faster than I ever could with an AoE gun or most abilities. It's effective to a point where I rarely if ever even use Curse on Kullervo. So how disruptive is AoE really when they barely nerf it and then release things like those mentioned after having made a statement like the one you quoted? So then you want something impossible really. AoE to be effective versus single target but not too effective at AoE so single target can be effective in AoE encounters while not being to effective at single target so AoE can also be used on single target encounters fairly effectively. If you make it so single target gets better performance versus crowd and then buff AoE to get close to single target for solo encounters you've practically undone what you did to single target since the AoE would at that point kill individual targets roughly as fast as single target while also adding the cleave ontop of it still. Would be nice if you could reveal your plans for how you'd make that work. No, just no. Go and experience actualy level cap systems first, because they are nothing, nothing like damage attenuation, something that often exsists alongside those level cap systems aswell for certain encounters. Level sync or a power level cap in WF would take the shape of say Earth limiting you to only a certain rank for your mods, potentially deleveling your frame (to reduce stats) and similar. Damage attenuation would not result in what Ayin said, which was also more directed at Merk by the looks of it. What Merk wants, "engaging" gameplay, would be achieved by the S#&$e that is level sync/power level cap. Since that would impact everything, damage output, incoming damage, ehp, energy, skill ranks etc. Damage attenuation is solvey about our damage output. Extra mitigation since armor, hp and other means just arent enough due to us dealing way too much damage. Not even damage attenuation does anything about it atm. And saying DE normalizes out power through diminish return, armor, proc immunity and proc caps is quite a reach. Diminish return is a natural occurance which has nothing to do with DE as it exsists in WF. Some game do add unnatural diminish return untop of the naturally occuring one. Like games where you have crit rating that results in critical %. To get 1% you might need 100, but then when you hit 10% critical chance the game adjusts the needed 100/% to 120/%. That is diminishing return imposed by the designers by intent. What we have is just the natural way of how stacking stats and math works, but there is no internal adjustment ontop of that. 100% critical chance on a 20% critical weapon is +20% critical chance no matter if you are at 200% critical chance or 20% critical chance. Proc immunity etc. are just normal unique mechanics. And it is really not something that normalizes, it really does the opposite, since you are more likely to bring an additional tool in your loadout to handle those things. Same as if you want to really maximize against status proc caps, you bring more statuses instead of relying on fewer ones. And who is petrified of this? I embrace it all. I enjoy when certain mobs have strengths and potentially weaknesses towards certain things. I love weakspots, I love viral immune enemies, I love nullification/dispells etc. Things that might get me to pick up 1 out of the 3 or so of the other tools I carry with me in my pack for some reason every single mission.

The clouds could activate the buff aslong as clouds where on the field and dealing damage as the buff ended since they could proc electrical status on tick. The main thing with this change is that the clouds can no longer spread on their own aside from enemies dying inside the actual cloud. Influence allowed the cloud to kill enemies in a 20m area, resulting in new clouds being created up to 20m away, resulting in those clouds having the same potential to kill and spread within 20m and so on. Hence why it wasnt uncommon to have things die hundreds of meters away from you in locations you hadnt event entered yet on a map. Dual Ichor is still still crazy even if influence damage instances cannot proc from the cloud. It will still kill and spawn new instances of itself, so bottlenecks can still turn into killing floors while you are elsewhere killing other things. And you can still create clouds through influence kills, so you can still create clouds up to 20m away with your actual melee hits.

Gas City, Galleons, New Corpus Ships (depends on layout though), Void Towers, Lua, Zariman and Labs.