Fed up with Sayrn being so stupid OP

[thez_]

From what I saw, Saryn is really good at certain type of mission, but I wouldn't nerf it.

I think they should instead rework the resistence of the mobs.

[MechaKnight]

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Nope, I would still say Saryn is OP, and I've done almost everything in the game, barring leveling a couple weapons I don't have. Segregating newbs from the vets isn't going to magically make broken press-4-to-win frame complaints disappear.

She's OP because she scales well with range, as with every other "overpowered" ability of the past before nerfs. Ember's Overheat is the most blatantly obvious balance against Overextended I've seen: the mod gives range in exchange for strength, so Overheat gives strength in exchange of range and efficiency. Since players have grown accustomed to modding near 280% range stat, Overheat kicks in and drops the player down to 140% range stat and halve her efficiency. Modern frames like Inaros, Harrow, Mesa, Revenant, and soon Garuda don't scale well with range, which combined with the smaller range magnitudes of Agility Drift and Augur Reach show the developers are concerned with allowing destructive warframe abilities to have too much range.

4 minutes ago, thez_ said:

From what I saw, Saryn is really good at certain type of mission, but I wouldn't nerf it.

I think they should instead rework the resistence of the mobs.

They have done that. Lets address anti-ability enemies and entities in order.

• Energy Leech Eximus. Steals player energy.
• Doors with disruptors: inflicts magnetic procs, which remove player energy.
• The Nullifier. He creates an aura which disables abilities in its vicinity, and has capped damage intake so it would not be broken by single strong shots, but faster shots.
• The Bursa is a heavily durable enemy created to tank frontal damage, and is generally durable all-around so it effectively resists ability damage simply by resisting any damage. Some variants lob nullifying grenades that nullify abilities. Their damage output is strong.
• The Comba and Scrambus have helmets which disable abilities in a variety of ways. They are given powerful weapons in order to destroy frames--hopefully the frames that are best at using radial powers are also the weakest ones, so this enemy hopes.
• The Juggernaut takes extremely little damage except for its weak points, which are nearly impossible to target with an ability. Thus, you use your weapons on it instead.
• The Nox is designed to take less damage from any point except its head. Most abilities target the torso instead of the head, thus this enemy resists damage from most abilities.
• Plains of Eidolon night water: inflicts mag proc, removes energy.
• Eidolons. Radial blast inflicts magnetic proc, removes energy.

The game has shaped up to resist abilities due to our relentless radial spam. When the developers failed to succeed in pushing line-of-sight, this was the alternative to engage players more.

I haven't even talked about current and future sentient enemies, which are surely designed to resist all kinds of strategies based around abilities and damage type status effects. The current trend for enemy design is to make them resistant to abilities, or resistant to damage which by proxy makes them resistant to abilities. Mechanisms of nullifying abilities or sapping energy will also become more common, as would very high damage output since it is a frame design trend that frames that are good at killing very quickly are not the best tanks.

 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2018-11-03 at 9:48 AM, Pizzarugi said:

You're trying to make excuses to justify why Saryn doesn't deserve nerfs, but anyone who bothers using more than just her 1 and 4 will know she's still more than capable of deleting rooms with no help from teammates. She's not even my main and I avoid playing anything that allows teammates to leech, and from what you've said, it sounds like I'm better at Saryn than you are to know that she's still very broken.

Sorry if my response comes off as hostile, I have no patience for thinly-veiled excuses to defend press-4-to-win frames. In a game where DE is doing everything they can to limit most missions to level 60 max (star chart), and time-gating anything higher for bored veterans (kuva floods, sorties, elite alerts), there's no excuse to have frames, mods, or weapons that can clear entire rooms while the rest of your team has to sit and watch while the game plays itself.

 

 

Yes you do in fact come off as hostile.

If you have an opinion on an aspect of gameplay that is fine to share. I have no problem with hearing different opinions. That is the purpose of such forums.

However when you start to make assumptions about my personal motivations and character, that is hostile and unwanted. - insulting my opinions as shallow 'thinly-veiled excuses', -making implications that I must not be as good a player as you because I don't see the same things you do.

Those are personal attacks, and elitism.

You need to consider that different people have different perspectives and learn to respect that.

Free free to debate gameplay aspects, but do so without targeting the humans behind the screen.

 

[Leown_Kitrinos]

It's a damage frame though? I just recently picked her up and yeah I go to ESO or Hydron to level stuff up with her but dude.

I've seen people get as many kills as me or do the most damage and I was TRYING to get spores going and I couldn't lol.

 

This is a player skill thing/effort. Frames like even Ember which the range got nerfed but she still does her job there's just more recasting involved but she still does her job.

 

These frames that are getting the most kills are designed for this. They are DAMAGE FRAMES. If your doing open squads expect any frame, ANY. 

I've seen Frost, Oberon, revenant, vauban(seriously), wukong, rhino and a few other frames that aren't fully kit for pure damage do more damage and get more kills.

 

Work on your weapons and your frame anything is possible. Frames like Sayrn just have it easier because they are designed for the damage output like that.

I mean I get it if your just going on a casual run and just wanna lazy shoot or just have a good time. You get mad when a pure damage frame runs in and your like "oh crap here we go I'll get like 12 kills lul" then yeah okay it can be annoying but having an open squad.. your kinda doing it to yourself.

 

Honestly speaking I love it. It's a challenge it's "is that a Mesa?..omfg challenge accepted on kill count" 

 

But I don't know I guess. To each is there own but this dosent mean this frame needs a nerf. 

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

Let's say there is an exterminate mission. If someone likes to spend 10 minutes just to do the mission because he's using a venka prime and an excalibur play solo. I prefer to not waste my time and do that mission in 3 min with a nuke frame.

Edited November 5, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[Pizzarugi]

11 hours ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

Let's say there is an exterminate mission. If someone likes to spend 10 minutes just to do the mission because he's using a venka prime and an excalibur play solo. I prefer to not waste my time and do that mission in 3 min with a nuke frame.

Actually, the people who should be the ones playing solo are the press-4-to-win frames. They have absolutely no need for teammates, considering they're able to do everything a team can on their own with one press of a button.

So why don't they? I can wager it's the same reason why nobody else plays solo.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Actually, the people who should be the ones playing solo are the press-4-to-win frames. They have absolutely no need for teammates, considering they're able to do everything a team can on their own with one press of a button.

So why don't they? I can wager it's the same reason why nobody else plays solo.

I have fun too using nuke frames ya know, i don't use them just to farm fast.

The excalibur venka guy has no right to tell me "man don't kill enemies!" in a public match and i have no rights to tell him "bro just use nukes if you want to kill". The difference between me and the excalibur guy is that i just shut up and deal with it if i see him killing only a enemy at a time every x seconds, because in a public match anyone can use what he wants.

Nuke frames helps speeding up a majority of the content of the game for others people too like affinity farm in the usual hidron or the fast farm of parts for the last baro visit that brings the last shiny thing. If the excalibur guy doesn't like my saryn he can just play dynasty warriors.

 

ps. The solo spawn problem (and the relic system) is what doesn't permits me, a nuke user, to play solo. Funny isn't it?

Edited November 5, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[EinheriarJudith]

21 hours ago, MechaKnight said:

She's OP because she scales well with range, as with every other "overpowered" ability of the past before nerfs. Ember's Overheat is the most blatantly obvious balance against Overextended I've seen: the mod gives range in exchange for strength, so Overheat gives strength in exchange of range and efficiency. Since players have grown accustomed to modding near 280% range stat, Overheat kicks in and drops the player down to 140% range stat and halve her efficiency. Modern frames like Inaros, Harrow, Mesa, Revenant, and soon Garuda don't scale well with range, which combined with the smaller range magnitudes of Agility Drift and Augur Reach show the developers are concerned with allowing destructive warframe abilities to have too much range.

They have done that. Lets address anti-ability enemies and entities in order.

• Energy Leech Eximus. Steals player energy.
• Doors with disruptors: inflicts magnetic procs, which remove player energy.
• The Nullifier. He creates an aura which disables abilities in its vicinity, and has capped damage intake so it would not be broken by single strong shots, but faster shots.
• The Bursa is a heavily durable enemy created to tank frontal damage, and is generally durable all-around so it effectively resists ability damage simply by resisting any damage. Some variants lob nullifying grenades that nullify abilities. Their damage output is strong.
• The Comba and Scrambus have helmets which disable abilities in a variety of ways. They are given powerful weapons in order to destroy frames--hopefully the frames that are best at using radial powers are also the weakest ones, so this enemy hopes.
• The Juggernaut takes extremely little damage except for its weak points, which are nearly impossible to target with an ability. Thus, you use your weapons on it instead.
• The Nox is designed to take less damage from any point except its head. Most abilities target the torso instead of the head, thus this enemy resists damage from most abilities.
• Plains of Eidolon night water: inflicts mag proc, removes energy.
• Eidolons. Radial blast inflicts magnetic proc, removes energy.

The game has shaped up to resist abilities due to our relentless radial spam. When the developers failed to succeed in pushing line-of-sight, this was the alternative to engage players more.

I haven't even talked about current and future sentient enemies, which are surely designed to resist all kinds of strategies based around abilities and damage type status effects. The current trend for enemy design is to make them resistant to abilities, or resistant to damage which by proxy makes them resistant to abilities. Mechanisms of nullifying abilities or sapping energy will also become more common, as would very high damage output since it is a frame design trend that frames that are good at killing very quickly are not the best tanks.

 

you are making to much sense. its true corpus got a heavy handed buff and all in the wrong places. if shields did more to protect like armor DE wouldnt have had to change their faction to turn off half of players arsenal. all the factions need a redesign, grineer give more affinity than the other 3 factions which needs to change.

DE has avoided doing things they should have took care of early on to a point i think it may just be time to move on. instead of fixing energy mechanics they shelved it, instead of fixing damage system they shelved it, instead of addressing AFK power spam, they bring frames out that have said AFK power spam. instead of having all factions be equal in difficulty they just over buffed corpus (infested make sure your energy stays at 0). its just a big sloppy mess.

[(PSN)TertulSee]

Ok, I’ve had Saryn kill enemies as efficiently as to prevent me from killing before. However, I can very much still kill during that time and after that. Saryn has down periods where she relies on other teammates to kill to get her Spores flowing and moving. I haven’t had a problem with Saryn. Most of the time in something like a survival, she can spam Spores but usually, the Spores would fall and she would have to do it all over again. It’s like Nidus but just a little bit worse (but scales better I guess). Also, she fails at anything that’s low level. The higher the level the better until a certain point. Then it’s just being one shotted and not doing enough damage to keep up.

[Haeen]

11 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Actually, the people who should be the ones playing solo are the press-4-to-win frames.

Why?

11 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

They have absolutely no need for teammates, considering they're able to do everything a team can on their own with one press of a button.

Public means for everyone. I do not see anyone nuking telling an excalibur with a bow to play differently.

 

11 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

So why don't they? I can wager it's the same reason why nobody else plays solo.

It depends on the mission. Some are not spawn reliant, some are, sometimes yo want more opportunities for mats.

As it stands, only one party is demanding changes from the other in a public setting, and it is an unreasonable demand.

[Conflux59]

1 hour ago, Aegni said:

Why?

Generally, the reason why people believe that is because while one single frame is performing the role of 4 frames, it leaves the other 3 players with nothing to do, so it can be seen as selfish.

1 hour ago, Aegni said:

Public means for everyone. I do not see anyone nuking telling an excalibur with a bow to play differently.

The reason for that is because the nukers are nuking, therefore there's no reason to tell the excalibro with a bow to play differently as most things will be dead or close to it before that string is even pulled back.  In your given scenario, there is absolutely zero chance that excal is going to bother anyone by playing unintrusively.

1 hour ago, Aegni said:

depends on the mission. Some are not spawn reliant, some are, sometimes yo want more opportunities for mats.

As it stands, only one party is demanding changes from the other in a public setting, and it is an unreasonable demand.

I can't help but feel this is only half of the double edged sword.  Looking behind those reasons as to why one party is "making demands" is because only one party is bothered.  Regarding the thread topic and piggybacking on my last comment to you (I'll put this in question form to better express my point) in what scenario is a nuking frame going to be bothered by a teammate?  The answer is le' actual example:  I was playing defense a long while back as nekros farming oxium ...back when his #4 was believed to take up enemy spawns... and the map nuking banshee in the group got p***ed off at me for using it and literally told me to "stop using that move."

That is the only single time I've seen a nuking frame tell someone else to play differently, but the reason was because they thought it was hindering their kills which is the ironic part.  It's never happened before or since that I've seen personally; nuking frames won't generally be hindered from doing their nuking by a non nuking frame so there no cause for complaints on their end.

unfortunately non nuking players have less control in the scenario, so why not be a decent teammate and maybe ask if anyone minds first, and if someone does mind then you can avoid ruining their time or end up being the reason they leave the match... and if no one minds then go nutz.  If someone actually asked first I'd be very inclined to say 'ya go for it' even if I were against it in general or something, if only for the fact they were considerate enough to ask first.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Conflux59

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Conflux59 said:

Generally, the reason why people believe that is because while one single frame is performing the role of 4 frames, it leaves the other 3 players with nothing to do, so it can be seen as selfish.

The reason for that is because the nukers are nuking, therefore there's no reason to tell the excalibro with a bow to play differently as most things will be dead or close to it before that string is even pulled back.  In your given scenario, there is absolutely zero chance that excal is going to bother anyone by playing unintrusively.

I can't help but feel this is only half of the double edged sword.  Looking behind those reasons as to why one party is "making demands" is because only one party is bothered.  Regarding the thread topic and piggybacking on my last comment to you (I'll put this in question form to better express my point) in what scenario is a nuking frame going to be bothered by a teammate?  The answer is le' actual example:  I was playing defense a long while back as nekros farming oxium ...back when his #4 was believed to take up enemy spawns... and the map nuking banshee in the group got p***ed off at me for using it and literally told me to "stop using that move."

That is the only single time I've seen a nuking frame tell someone else to play differently, but the reason was because they thought it was hindering their kills which is the ironic part.  It's never happened before or since that I've seen personally; nuking frames won't generally be hindered from doing their nuking by a non nuking frame so there no cause for complaints on their end.

unfortunately non nuking players have less control in the scenario, so why not be a decent teammate and maybe ask if anyone minds first, and if someone does mind then you can avoid ruining their time or end up being the reason they leave the match... and if no one minds then go nutz.  If someone actually asked first I'd be very inclined to say 'ya go for it' even if I were against it in general or something, if only for the fact they were considerate enough to ask first.

i mostly agree with the things you've said here. the sad thing is that, anyone has to ask to play their frame the way they are supposed to be played or how they want to play it. warframe is designed for the most part around killing. if one frame is doing all the killing without making any effort leaving the other 3 with nothing to do, something needs to be redesigned. squad play should be designed for everyone in the squad to contribute.

AoE has been out of control for a long time, and i think at this point DE needs to do some unfavorable things (unfavorable now because they let it go on to long).

Edited November 6, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[ZodiacShinryu]

On ‎2018‎-‎11‎-‎05 at 11:47 PM, Conflux59 said:

That is the only single time I've seen a nuking frame tell someone else to play differently, but the reason was because they thought it was hindering their kills which is the ironic part.  It's never happened before or since that I've seen personally; nuking frames won't generally be hindered from doing their nuking by a non nuking frame so there no cause for complaints on their end.

I can only agree with this in so far as that the majority of basic systems and modes revolves around killing everything as fast as possible. There are like 4 game modes (3 overall variants) of the top of my head that don't actually require you kill anything but are faced with unavoidable pressure (so ignoring Spy, Rescue, and some sabatoge maps); Interception, Defection, Mobile Defense, Hijack. Because killing in some form doesn't really risk anything, yes indeed, nukers generally have the least to complain about with what others are doing. That said there are  times when playstyles clash. Some CC frames would delay matches with unneeded or incorrectly used abilities. No LoS Blind Prism Mirage back in the day (only slightly replaced by RQ Banshee) use to advise no one kill anything because of enemy limit caps. That was the epitome of "doing nothing".

Part of the problem before even needing to consider that some nukes are over-tuned in general (and some very much are) is that the game modes almost always default to killing fast. There is nothing overriding that, it is all very simplistic. The only deterrent to killing too fast is Juggernaut (only really in exterminate missions even though not really anymore). Which under most circumstances isn't much a deterrent (especially now) even in Sorties. But I do remember early in the Sortie lifecycle that when Juggy was getting ready to go, you'd get people in chat say "STOP KILLING" because many people really didn't want to deal with him.

In short,while I am not particularly against a large scale rebalance, I rather DE spend more time on enemy design and more complex game modes. Modes where indiscriminate slaughter might make it harder at parts but useful else where. The point is to try to stress the game roles not sink into them. That said, I can see why DE would shy away. It is difficult and depending on the implementation exploitable for trolling others... though that is part of the co-op experience that everyone so wants.

Though as long as people don't actually "want" to cooperate and have their own individual expectations of how they want a match to play out, there is no way to really tailor anything to make people happy. Not without slowing everything down to a crawl anyway which for a lot of people is already a no go.

[SenariousNex]

She is a bit much. Maybe keep everything as is, just make it so she deals less damage and more % damage, so she doesn't wipe out everything before you can even reach it.

[(PSN)DARK_WIZARD999]

Matchmaking needs to be more specific. Being able to exclude frames would resolve babies whining about nerfs. Yeah some obvious ones would get less groups to play with but the game isn't hard enough to need to anyway. 

[Atsia]

4 hours ago, (PS4)DARK_WIZARD999 said:

Matchmaking needs to be more specific. Being able to exclude frames would resolve babies whining about nerfs. Yeah some obvious ones would get less groups to play with but the game isn't hard enough to need to anyway. 

I disagree with that notion. It doesn't matter how hard the game is, I don't  think DE should make it so that you can force Limbo/Saryn/Volt/etc. players to have to play solo to do anything.

[ZeQuadraGaming]

then i have 1 word for ya: MESA

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2018-10-09 at 8:21 AM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

This is what I was going to say regarding Ember.. 

Everyone always argues "Well, she was only overpowered on the star chart!". They always seem to disregard the fact that it's most of the game, and that high end progression forces players back to low level areas constantly...in every update. That's why it was an issue, even if it fell short in the top 3% of content...

Problem with your argument. Players exist that only do high level content. I'm still hoping for a day they add Polymer bundles to a planet with higher level starting enemies then 25. And some people want to use a frame they like competitively at high tier. 

Ember starts to really struggle, her powers only being good for weak cc around levels 100-120. 

Meanwhile my personal best is fighting level 609 enemies. Being able to easily fight level 200-300+ enemies on Saryn or Octavia. 

Balancing everything off of Low Level enemies would get everything in the game nerfed. Balancing shouldn't be off of low tier. Instead Arbitration is the direction warframe should go. -Higher level enemies, better rewards, stronger frames. Make higher missions more lucrative, and frames like Ember better. 

Not nerfing things pointlessly for the sake of making low level players feel good about their 0 forma Oberon's after the 6 forma, umbral Saryn's get nerfed out of their time spent grinding/farming. 

[Spectre-8]

6 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Problem with your argument. Players exist that only do high level content.

0.001 % of Warframe's current playerbase

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

36 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

0.001 % of Warframe's current playerbase

Not quite. Most veterans are too busy doing Arbitration to get all the endo they need for primed mods, or mod hunting. The rest on Pc are doing Fortuna. 

Limiting one frame that is "too" good in low level, is the worst way to balance anything in history. 

[Spectre-8]

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Not quite. Most veterans are too busy doing Arbitration to get all the endo they need for primed mods, or mod hunting. The rest on Pc are doing Fortuna. 

Limiting one frame that is "too" good in low level, is the worst way to balance anything in history. 

Ember used to be a tank what happened , don't answer this.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Ember starts to really struggle, her powers only being good for weak cc around levels 100-120. 

Meanwhile my personal best is fighting level 609 enemies. Being able to easily fight level 200-300+ enemies on Saryn or Octavia. 

Balancing everything off of Low Level enemies would get everything in the game nerfed. Balancing shouldn't be off of low tier. Instead Arbitration is the direction warframe should go. -Higher level enemies, better rewards, stronger frames. Make higher missions more lucrative, and frames like Ember better.

Yeah because obviously current endgame content is designed around lvl 600 enemies... Only it isn't.

In Elite Onslaught enemies get to 200-220 only beyond zone 20, which is already way beyond neccessary (usually ppl aim to go for 8). Sorties only go up to around 100. Even in arbitrations 150 minutes into a survival enemies are still merely at lvl 260...

Lvl 200 enemies are de facto not low level and should not be trivial. (Not even talking about Octavia being able to theoretically camp up to lvl 9999 without much effort).

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

7 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Yeah because obviously current endgame content is designed around lvl 600 enemies... Only it isn't.

In Elite Onslaught enemies get to 200-220 only beyond zone 20, which is already way beyond neccessary (usually ppl aim to go for 8). Sorties only go up to around 100. Even in arbitrations 150 minutes into a survival enemies are still merely at lvl 260...

Lvl 200 enemies are de facto not low level and should not be trivial. (Not even talking about Octavia being able to theoretically camp up to lvl 9999 without much effort).

Level 120 enemies make ember useless so..... That usually lasts her till about the first C rotation.

And seeing how Ember's two main competitors are saryn, and octavia. Don't you think its about time she was given some off to compete?

[Hikelos]

I think a lot of people here are misrepresenting the OP saying "This frame is so OP that I can scarcely play and I feel useless" into "I hate you for killing stuff faster than me"

This isn't an issue limited to Saryn, it's an issue that extends to every frame that can just AOE every enemy in the mission.

This functionality is limited for frames like Frost/Oberon (Long cast time, low power), Ember (High Range and low power becomes Small range and high power) Banshee (High energy cost) and I think Equinox, though I haven't unlocked her and I don't see her around much if at all.

However when it comes to Saryn there really is no limit to the spores, as long as there are enemies around, there will be damage (and let's be honest, you do not even need range mods to have the spores spread everywhere with just a couple kills). Moreover Saryn is also tanky, has a decoy, has a weapon buff with 100% Toxin and her spore damage is so high that her 4 is basically irrelevant.

 

Most importantly Saryn doesn't just break the game that way, but it also breaks it by making other frames irrelevant.

Take Garuda for example, In order to kill a pack of enemies I have to use almost her entire kit every time. The combo I find works with 200%+ strength is 4>1>2>Charged 1, and even with max possible range the explosion is like 15m or something, you're also vulnerable while doing this and if you're short on energy (all of her abilities are pretty expensive) you have to pop half your HP. 

Why do all that when I can just go Saryn, put a spore up and shoot an enemy every once in a while?

[sixmille]

It's not just Saryn. There are two categories of warframes, the well designed ones like Excalibur, Nidus, Atlas or Harrow, strong but they have clear limits, and the others like Saryn, Volt, Equinox, Nova or Limbo, with theoretical limits that are never met because of their immense scaling or stopping power. A few warframes are in between like Mesa too. The second category is poorly designed not because they're too strong per se, but because they haven't been designed with 3 other players in mind. Team play is by far the most common scenario according to DE's data so it's the one that should be the priority.

If you take a Nidus or Excalibur in a lvl 150 survival, you will still do your job as a damage dealer but not to the point that the rest of the team can just AFK in a corner with trinity giving you about 22589 energy every 30s or so. Nidus and Excal are team players. They're very strong, they do a lot of damage, but they will never either freeze a map entirely or wipe it entirely, which is clearly a press 4 to win scenario. They need some support like a moderate amount of CC or some heals, or some sort of damage mitigation. When I play a press 4 to win warframe, even in a very high level environment, I do not need the other players to do anything at all. I do a couple things and damage is raking up passively - I even kill stuff I can't see, which is taking care of NPCs that aren't even a threat, preemptively.

There's been interesting attempts at migitating that in arbitrations but the drone solution isn't ideal. First the drone is trivial to take down then once it's gone it's back to press 4 to win - or press 1 and E to win in the case of Saryn.

Ultimately the question shouldn't be "do I want to wipe the map" but "should I be able to make core gameplay elements (such as killing enemies) entirely unavailable to the rest of the team", and IMO a good game designer should absolutely draw the line there and make that impossible in any scenario.

When I started playing back in 2013 we didn't have that problem, warframes were support platforms for guns gameplay, and while some variety is welcome things have gone way too far in 2015-2016. DE is obviously stepping back and showing timid signs of learning from past mistakes but first they're still doing this very mistake occasionally like Saryn's infinite damage scaling, then there's old mess to clean up and stunlocking massive numbers of NPCs to the point that they are irrelevant should also be added to the pile, because it is also removing a core gameplay element from the game (danger is important!) at the detriment of other players. Hopefully one day someone at DE wakes up and removes infinite scaling and map-wide CC but since Saryn has been reworked in 2018 it shows that some people at DE take "thinking outside of the box" a bit too literally and completely miss the point and create monsters who obey to no rule, which is the core of the issue right here.

Edited November 11, 2018 by sixmille