Limbo, turn off the rift!

[Duality52]

Being in the Rift isn't that bad as you think; the Rift gives everyone a passive +2 energy per second regeneration. Not only that, this energy regen is unaffected by the Energy Reduction Sortie condition. If you need energy outside of spamming Energizing Dash or Energy Restores, go into the Rift by asking or other related means.

[BETAOPTICS]

Good and experienced players know most or all Warframe mechanics, most average player is decent and only knows some. It is interesting to read here that Limbo is disliked because of the uniqueness and complexity of his mechanic. It is complex in the sense that it has more conditional rules than most and it is unique because the closest thing to the Rift mechanic is Nullifier bubbles. Once you understand that you have to treat it as though they are two different dimensions (things outside can hurt things outside but not things inside; things inside can hurt things inside but not outside; Warframe abilities ignore dimensions and can hurt enemies on both planes), the fundamentals of the Rift aren't actually that complex. But they are unique and therefore require research from the player.

There is a long standing problem in Warframe that it has a low entry point for a player but efficiency requires active 3rd party player research participation, the game itself only provides a skeleton database. For example you will not know how the Rift works unless you a) have a Limbo and have played him enough to understand how he works, b) have sought data and information on his mechanics, c) have looked at market and/or codex for the info.

Though the problem with lateral in-game ability descriptions is that they need to be short and therefore insufficient descriptions as they can leave many questions unanswered. It is the same problem with patches, only some bother the read them, even fewer read all of them, and majority get their info as they go from experience so details of a change may not be known by a portion of the playerbase. These problems would be immensely helped if the games news section would always feature and advertise any of the bigger changes and reworks so it would give easy access for casual players to info about the most relevant things. Detailed info for those who want to know the game inside and out. Addittionally the games codex -section should feature videos detailing up-to-date Warframe abilities for example so this would be an eady way to illustrate mechanics in a way text format can not.

Were I to give any lesson to the players themselves then it would be to: Research, research, research. Seriously the best thing you can do for yourself and your own improvement and growth in life is the process of research and learning. Be it real life or virtual life. If you do not understand how something works, find out the info you seek. The time and energy you spent frustrated and writing comments even you could have used for research purposes and you only need to learn once. How efficient. You only do a disservice to yourself if you decide to skip it, as it will come back at some point where knowledge would be your best tool. This is something we learn in Software Engineering school. We need to constantly do research and learn new things, that is key in our profession.

Edited September 20, 2018 by BETAOPTICS

[CarrotSalad]

Man, Limbo had one of the biggest learning curves of any warframe for me. Theres no game around though that replicates that play experience though.

The rework made it allot easier to learn as allot of the mechanics have been more simplified. Most of the current trolling/raging seems to be born from when limbo players use their 3.

3rd ability is entirely situational and should'nt be spammed in a group imho.

[Zanchak]

I just don't enjoy playing with a limbo in squad, regardless if they are a troll or an expert.. -I- have trouble working with him, I have trouble -seeing- what's going on, so it's generally just an irritable experience for me when one is around.

[Kronxito]

The OP of this thread doesnt know how to use Limbo nor playing with the Rift. And that is why he doesnt like Limbo frame/players.

In other words:

[Wesgile]

I hate the perceived mandatoriness of Limbo on mobile defense/defense missions/sorties, there's always one in it.

No, the defense objective is FINE, I haven't failed a single defense mission (not caused by bugs) for ages now don't worry.

[McBonY]

I honestly don't get the hate on Limbo. As far as trolling goes, he's not even the best. Frost can mess things up too by spamming globes, as you can't shoot through them (not that much of a problem until you have a gun that can kill the user ;] ), and speed nova can simply kill unprepared team by buffing the enemies, Limbo is just a bit annoying in comparison. The only thing i'd like changed is a better visualization of banished targets. Thick black outline is hard to notice sometimes, with all the particle effect mess we get when all the fancy guns and abilities go off. But it's a minor thing.

[541K4T]

15 minutes ago, Wesgile said:

I hate the perceived mandatoriness of Limbo on mobile defense/defense missions/sorties, there's always one in it.

No, the defense objective is FINE, I haven't failed a single defense mission (not caused by bugs) for ages now don't worry.

I just hope you are not one of those who bring Revenant in Sortie Mobile Defense with Radiation Hazard condition.

How can something be mandatory and perceived at the same time? Every one perceives the mission challenges in their own way and then proceeds to circumvent it. It might happen that their choices match. For instance I use Limbo for spy missions, where as Loki / Ivara may be the " perceived mandatory " as per your logic. I own all frames ( except Ivara ) and certainly have my preferences but that does not mean I hate any frame. Learn how to play different frames, it will give you perspective.

[Wesgile]

3 minutes ago, 541K4T said:

I just hope you are not one of those who bring Revenant in Sortie Mobile Defense with Radiation Hazard condition.

How can something be mandatory and perceived at the same time? Every one perceives the mission challenges in their own way and then proceeds to circumvent it. It might happen that their choices match. For instance I use Limbo for spy missions, where as Loki / Ivara may be the " perceived mandatory " as per your logic. I own all frames ( except Ivara ) and certainly have my preferences but that does not mean I hate any frame. Learn how to play different frames, it will give you perspective.

?

That's basically all I'm saying, If I had run spy sorties public I might rant about seeing too many Loki/Ivara as well. I don't have a real beef against it though, you can do whatever you want.

[z3us32610]

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

TBH, Limbo - or rather, the rift - needs a way for allies to enter without Limbo's direct assistance. That would lift the 'random enemy gets banished and the player using Limbo doesn't notice' problem, and frees up a lot of his moves.

Of course, either way, being conscientious with your powers is important. Maximum range isn't everything for this precise reason. A smaller cataclysm leaves slots open for survivability, utility or power strength if you want to double up with Rift Torrent, and allows enemies to get near enough for a trouncing. I've got a good all-rounder setup on my Limbo prime that has only 145% range (about half max range Limbo) and some power strength for Rift Torrent. He's extremely capable and I use him for almost everything. I can even run Plague Star in a decent amount of time thanks to Shattering Impact, Tiberon Prime and the 600-1000% damage buffs the infested horde give me. But still, when playing with other Tenno, I try to avoid using all my powers simply because I can mess with everyone else. No need to use a hammer when a little elbow grease is all that's needed.

But hey, same can be said for a bucketload of other frames. Nyx, Nova, Frost, they can all mess with other players. Even Harrow can screw over Nezha's, Rhino's and other Harrows. Limbo's not that much worse than any of these frames. And of course, for some people, any nuke frame is ten times worse than Limbo.

what 600-1000% damage buffs are you referring to from the infested borde? I'm curious becauseI frickin love playing limbo and using ALL of his abilities. I know of the rift torrent augment that buffs 30% but can't find what you are talking about from the wiki. lemme know, ty

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

1 hour ago, AnGeL_KRoM said:

The OP of this thread doesnt know how to use Limbo nor playing with the Rift. And that is why he doesnt like Limbo frame/players.

In other words:

In the very least though, they do have a vague point. The Rift is really not ally friendly, and I never really understood why.

No matter what Limbo does, there are going to be Warframes that struggle with him around. Vauban, another Limbo (albeit to a much lesser extent), Harrow, Nyx, Loki, Nekros and even Inaros. Warframes that don't really have any strong offensive capabilities hate him right now because they have to chase after his portals or play peek a boo with Cataclysm to kill enemies. Now, yes, I'm sure after these guys get some decent damage abilities that this won't be such a big deal, but the same issue will persist for future Warframes. I mean, even after such buffs, I can't exactly see Nekros killing guys just as fast as Excalibur, and I doubt you can either.

Limbo's interaction with allies, while a lot better than it was in the past, is still clunky and can still delay certain mission types. Thankfully, this is mostly just due to the Rift and it's mechanics, and not Limbo himself (Cataclysm was over nerfed a bit but whatever). The best thing to do is not just to say "well quit the mission" or "you don't understand how he works" (don't worry, I'm not accusing you of this, I'm just highlighting the most common excuses), but instead to make it so you really don't have to know anything about Limbo to work well with him. He's the only Warframe that hinders players in such a way (other Warframes do hinder ally damage, but not to such an extent), so I can see why it's a bit frustrating, even if it's a little exaggerated and can easily be alleviated if people read any of his abilities. I'm afraid we can't fix people though, so the best thing we can really do is fix the system, or at least reinforce it enough so that this kind of issue is so miniscule it's laughable.

For example, the Rift halts all damage outside of it. While I get the logic behind that, that doesn't work well in a team setting, and creates the constant invulnerability/vulnerability juggle we see with Cataclysm upon it shrinking. Gameplay comes first, after all. The best suggestion I can offer to fix that is allowing full damage to enemies that are in the Rift, however, that damage would be halved by 50%, or just not allow Status procs, with abilities of course ignoring this limitation. Maybe make that damage affect them after they leave the Rift, who knows, but you get the idea. If you want to limit Limbo like that, that's totally fine, the guy does have some serious advantages in the Rift. Limiting his allies doesn't really make any sense from a mission flow standpoint. Other Warframes are not Limbo. Why should they have to follow his rules to such an extent when they aren't the ones who can freely hop between dimensions at will easily and quickly?

The other issue I'd say Limbo has is leaving stragglers behind with his abilities, with Rift Surge being the main cause for this. It does an okay job of bringing enemies into the Rift that weren't already in it, but it's seriously hindered by the fact that the enemy has to be killed in the Rift to be brought into it. Again, this makes total sense from a logical standpoint, but not from a gameplay standpoint. The best solution I can offer here is to apply the 50% rule from before, and maybe make it so allies can be brought into the Rift if they start attacking a Rifted enemy affected by Rift Surge (or just allow that from the get-go).

I could go over other aspects of Limbo, like how Banish in its current state is counter-intuitive to how you'd want to play Limbo, or how his Passive should affect allies as well so his Energy Regen isn't just an efficiency buff for drain abilities, but I've made enough of a wall of text already.

Either way, it is a problem we should try to fix so we can officially say such criticism against Limbo is just whining, with no real evidence to support it. As, right now, I can't say the whining doesn't at least have some merit.

Edited September 20, 2018 by (XB1)Graysmog

[Rambit23Z]

I miss the old Stasis.

[CupcakesMoo]

Maybe people should learn to love the PUG and stop being a stick in the mud. 

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, z3us32610 said:

what 600-1000% damage buffs are you referring to from the infested borde? I'm curious becauseI frickin love playing limbo and using ALL of his abilities. I know of the rift torrent augment that buffs 30% but can't find what you are talking about from the wiki. lemme know, ty

Happy to help!

Rift torrent gives 30% increased damage per enemy affected by rift surge, not 30% overall. So with one enemy you'll get 30%, with two you'll get 60%, ten 300%, twenty 600%. With enough enemies around, the buff increases past any other raw damage buff. I have a bit more power strength than most suggested Limbo builds to capitalise on this - so I get 39% per enemy, which means the buff builds up that much faster. Since I'm spamming his three a lot when I want to keep a high buff, I also have more efficiency. Like I said during my post, this comes at the cost of range, but this doesn't affect me too badly. If anything, it's a boon to team play and keeps me safer from Nullifiers.

Keep using Rift Surge to keep the buff maximised. It doesn't fall off as quickly as it might thanks to Surges transferring to enemies outside the rift, which still counts for the buff. It's great for scrapes with higher level enemies, or synergising with weapons that have useful gimmicks but lower-end damage. And since the Hemocyte won't stop spawning enemies (along with a lot of other bosses doing much the same thing), it's a great option to get a big buff during that fight solo.

[z3us32610]

38 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Happy to help!

Rift torrent gives 30% increased damage per enemy affected by rift surge, not 30% overall. So with one enemy you'll get 30%, with two you'll get 60%, ten 300%, twenty 600%. With enough enemies around, the buff increases past any other raw damage buff. I have a bit more power strength than most suggested Limbo builds to capitalise on this - so I get 39% per enemy, which means the buff builds up that much faster. Since I'm spamming his three a lot when I want to keep a high buff, I also have more efficiency. Like I said during my post, this comes at the cost of range, but this doesn't affect me too badly. If anything, it's a boon to team play and keeps me safer from Nullifiers.

Keep using Rift Surge to keep the buff maximised. It doesn't fall off as quickly as it might thanks to Surges transferring to enemies outside the rift, which still counts for the buff. It's great for scrapes with higher level enemies, or synergising with weapons that have useful gimmicks but lower-end damage. And since the Hemocyte won't stop spawning enemies (along with a lot of other bosses doing much the same thing), it's a great option to get a big buff during that fight solo.

ahh perfect, thank you. I don't have the augment myself but now that I know this, I'll definitely want it. I'm currently working on new loka and perrin sequence so hopefully one of those two have it. I've already went thru red veil and steel meridian, so I know they don't offer it. Now I can definitely see how that buff can stack to do a whole. lot of damage. 

thank you! 

[SneakyErvin]

Limbo's that build for massive range and use his #3 all the time are the only ones I hate. Both things utterly pointless unless you play solo.

Range over duration simply does nothing for him. I rather have a base size cataclysm that lasts long before hitting minimal size, this brings the mobs to you. #3 is just a big mess when used in groups because you have rifted enemies all over the place with zero control.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, z3us32610 said:

new loka and perrin sequence so hopefully one of those two have it.

Afraid not: Suda and the Arbiters have it.

[(PSN)Gibberish-Jack]

18 hours ago, Yatazanami said:

 oh baby stop lying to yourself , the horse i am riding get his legs and back broken by DE on the

 request of ignorance horse riders who think they're better than every limbo user out there

 and also believe he dose not deserve 2 freaking mn of they're life to check up on the thing

  that make them rage and foam and scratch they're heads on bewilderment

Baby hey lol.  Made me blush, love.

*ignorant

*their

*does

*makes

*their (again)

*in

Ok, so now thats fixed, I can move on...

I dont rage and foam, I quit and find another squad.  

 

[Yatazanami]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)brettles1983 said:

Baby hey lol.  Made me blush, love.

*ignorant

*their

*does

*makes

*their (again)

*in

Ok, so now thats fixed, I can move on...

I dont rage and foam, I quit and find another squad.  

 

thank you for your service . spellchecking officer 😂

but my grammar? seriously? that is your comeback? and if your quote (I dont rage and foam, I quit and find another squad.) is true then why are you even here ?

[VanFanel1980mx]

18 hours ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

Keep that walking defense guy alive please 🙂 make a tiny panic bubble for me to run into if I need it 🙂

I did it, not with cataclysm but banish since it is more precise, even then I may end up banishing people or enemies by accident, and guess what? when I reminded people how to escape by themselves I was called out for daring to use Limbo.

[VanFanel1980mx]

15 hours ago, AnGeL_KRoM said:

The OP of this thread doesnt know how to use Limbo nor playing with the Rift. And that is why he doesnt like Limbo frame/players.

In other words:

uh... did you read the OP at all?

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

The only problem I have is the frame is still confusing to new people or people who forget what can or cannot be done in the rift. I'm not surprised when I have to stop everything to tell limbo to drop cataclysm because I can't insert the datamass or things like that. Harmless mistakes but annoying when it happens often  or people are n't paying attention. He's much better now compared to the past though, so much so that I'll use him but never in defense situations with other people since unless the mission is super annoying and  I just want to get through with it, I'm self conscious about people maybe not wanting me to freeze the whole map.

[snarfbot]

hes been fine since the latest rework, the only minor annoyances are the likely inadvertent banishes.

 

give it a few months and most players will get to know the mechanics.

[(XBOX)D00M INCARNATE]

42 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

I did it, not with cataclysm but banish since it is more precise, even then I may end up banishing people or enemies by accident, and guess what? when I reminded people how to escape by themselves I was called out for daring to use Limbo.

To be fair, limbo is the last frame I'd ever pick. For anything. They may have just been a little more vocal about it than one such as I.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

Come to think of it, can we just get an augment for Banish that lets Limbo turn off the rift on a charged cast? Like, make him snap and poof the Rift is off. Stasis, Cataclysm, everything. Maybe even give him free energy for it.