Is DE gonna balance the disposition or not?

[Zanchak]

3 minutes ago, SinKershel said:

so much anger.

you think it would be better without Rivens ? My Hystrix would be barely viable making the top 5 guns even more used all the time. Don't know whats the problem a part from the fact you might think some Rivens you want cost too much plat ? Otherwise, how does it affect how you play the game ? What did Rivens change ?

There is no debacle, Rivens are fun. Yeah disposition could be adjusted, but remove rivens ? lol

btw, you can keep looking, Warframe is far from the "gambling" problem. They even removed a "gambling" mechanic with the Kavats 2 days after they released it because somebody spent 2000 $ in one day on the feature. (you would know that if you would've watched Warframe documentary)

Every roll of a riven is a gamble. The action is exactly the same, it's just not using money. The action of gambling is where addiction begins and considering the amount of plat people are scamming out of others for rivens, it's a big problem. Yes, I said scam, because you can safely bet some of those people are addicted to the rolls, regardless if they realize it or not.

[Teloch]

10 minutes ago, Infirito said:

So, I dunno how the whole game statistics thing works, neither do I care much, but wouldn't it be possible to stick this gun popularity data into a bot and just auto-balnce the disposition? I mean, you'd only need to set this up once and just run it every season or two for your Winter/Autumn/Summer/Spring dispositions. It was a matter of math to begin with, so why not just leave it at that?

Because this will ruin the simple flow for easy power creep cash that I mentioned a little above. With no certainty that the money invested into the NEW GOD RIVEN for a NEW GODLY WEAPON won't be devaluated with the predictable and inevitable nerf of the dispositions to the said new godly weapon™, customers with at least the seedlings of the cause-consequence thinking will be less prone to the seasonal purchases of the new god rivens™.

That easy.

It's all about making easy money by exploiting human psychology. Again and again. For as long as there are new candidates for power creeping.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Teloch

[Zanchak]

7 hours ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

The Riven disposition system is basically a design flaw that doesn't really have a obvious fix.

Imagine that DE does start to do disposition revisions frequently.

Today you spend 1k plat on a Riven for a weapon with 5 dispo, a week later that weapon becomes popular and the disposition goes down to 1.

I can only imagine the outcry of the people that have invested on a Riven for their favourite weapon..

 

No different to them giving away prime items and other goodies for free after people have paid for access.. and they don't care about those peoples outcry. Riven buyers should get treated the same. lol

[fishworshipper]

2 minutes ago, Zanchak said:

Every roll of a riven is a gamble. The action is exactly the same, it's just not using money. The action of gambling is where addiction begins and considering the amount of plat people are scamming out of others for rivens, it's a big problem. Yes, I said scam, because you can safely bet some of those people are addicted to the rolls, regardless if they realize it or not.

What? 

First off, it's not gambling. There's no money and no risk to rerolling a Riven. Sure, there's a chance that you don't get what you want, but that is literally omnipresent. Saying that rerolling Rivens is gambling is equivalent to saying that critical hits or Skittles are gambling.

Secondly, your point about the "scam" contradicts your point about the "addiction". If you're buying a Riven for platinum (being scammed, in your opinion) then you're avoiding the "gambling." The ones "gambling" are the ones who sell the Rivens.

2 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Because this will ruin the simple flow for easy power creep cash that I mentioned a little above. With no certainty that the money invested into the NEW GOD RIVEN for a NEW GODLY WEAPON won't be devaluated with the predictable and inevitable nerf of the dispositions to the said new godly weapon, customers with at least the seedlings of the cause-consequence thinking will be less prone to the seasonal purchases of the new god rivens of the season.

That easy.

It's all about making easy money by exploiting human psychology.

Platinum isn't money.

Sure, it sometimes costs money to get platinum, but once the platinum is in the game DE makes no money off of it regardless of how it's used. DE does not profit off of trades, they only profit off of people buying Platinum. 

[Marvelous_A]

41 minutes ago, Teloch said:

I don't have much time and patience and words for this issue, especially when the truth is simple.

DE are profiting from the brokenness of their game, which is the priming-induced power creep. Rivens merely amplify this trend.

DE announces or 'unintentionally leaks' which currently underdog-ish weapon will be buffed powercreeped with the next prime access -> the minmaxer playerbase goes nuts and creates demand for those rivens, feeling the dire urge to possess a riven for the new "king of the hill" weapon -> demand and purchases of plat occur, which fills DE's pockets with the sweet-sweet dosh.

Mark my words: on Dec 24-27 of the year 2018, Mesa Prime access will land, and it will contain the new prime secondary to outdo all other secondaries. Most llikely, it will be either akmagnus prime or aksomati prime (both have 4 dispo). The milk cows player base will go nuts, and we will meet again in the same threads such as this one. And this cycle will continue for as long as DE will have the "kingmaker" weapon candidates.

Yeah all online game developers know this but is this necessary the way Warframe should take?

I personally don't really care DE's making money from it but in the very least don't f@ck those who actually want to make a good use of riven on REAL underused weapons.

Just give every weapon a f@cking 5 star disposition and be done with it. I'm sure this way they will get at least double the total income from riven.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[Teloch]

Just now, fishworshipper said:

Sure, there's a chance that you don't get what you want

Mind that I do not have anything against you as a person and do not want to insult you, but this phrase of yours is the one-to-one exact argument with which EA went to the court to protect their practice of lootboxes

[Zanchak]

13 minutes ago, fishworshipper said:

What? 

First off, it's not gambling. There's no money and no risk to rerolling a Riven. Sure, there's a chance that you don't get what you want, but that is literally omnipresent. Saying that rerolling Rivens is gambling is equivalent to saying that critical hits or Skittles are gambling.

Secondly, your point about the "scam" contradicts your point about the "addiction". If you're buying a Riven for platinum (being scammed, in your opinion) then you're avoiding the "gambling." The ones "gambling" are the ones who sell the Rivens.

Platinum isn't money.

Sure, it sometimes costs money to get platinum, but once the platinum is in the game DE makes no money off of it regardless of how it's used. DE does not profit off of trades, they only profit off of people buying Platinum. 

I said right there, that the action of gambling is where the addiction begins. Someone is gonna roll and roll and roll and literally do nothing else in their losing addiction to chance. Then they'll go pay someone a ridiculous amount of plat they probably buy on their mothers cc, to soothe their need. People charging stupidly high prices feed off that craving to have the meta rivens. Which is daft, you don't need any rivens, even at all to keep up in this game. The purpose of rivens was to get less used weapons, used more. That purpose vanished as soon as they brought out rivens for things that never needed them. They are a stain in an otherwise great game.

Platinum is someones money to begin with. It doesnt magically appear with no one ever spending a cent.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Zanchak
Cause wrong word. Im also hungry.

[fishworshipper]

1 minute ago, Teloch said:

Mind that I do not have anything against you as a person and do not want to insult you, but this phrase of yours is the one-to-one exact argument with which EA went to the court to protect their practice of lootboxes

That's because that argument is true. It's the context of where/how the argument is used that makes the difference.

The issue with EA is that you get lootboxes by buying them, and even then you can't say "any product that costs money and has a random outcome is equivalent to gambling" because that would make Skittles gambling.

[Zagrax]

The disposition system is inherently flawed because it was created with the concept to keep rivens less viable on meta, already good weapons....however, when new primes come out, the disposition for the old weapon should be set to three. DE went to all the effort of overhauling most of the weapons and assigning MR to them, only to have whatever balance they were trying to achieve murdered by a system they don't even utilize anymore to achieve balance. (and we all know that it most certainly not was based on usage statistics when dispositions were assigned, more than likely they just assigned stat weights which is why some of their "balancing" involved adding stats based on some stat weight formula for expected power vs MR requirement. (ex: 5 to 7.5% status, or 2.5% crit to 5% like it's actually a buff) The system would probably work okayish if they actually updated it some or made the disposition changes across the spectrum less extreme, but at this point no matter what they do any negative changes will be seen as attacking players investments. 

[fishworshipper]

1 hour ago, Zanchak said:

I said right there, that the action of gambling is where the addiction begins. Someone is gonna roll and roll and roll and literally do nothing else in their losing addiction to chance. Then they'll go pay someone a ridiculous amount of plat they probably buy on their mothers cc, to soothe their need. People charging stupidly high prices feed off that craving to have the meta rivens. Which is daft, you don't need any rivens, even at all to keep up in this game. The purpose of rivens was to get less used weapons, used more. That purpose vanished as soon as they brought out rivens for things that never needed them. They are a stain in an otherwise great game.

Platinum is someones money to begin with. It doesnt magically appear without no one ever spending a cent.

Oh my God. OK. Let's start from the beginning.

You can't just "roll and roll and roll". Rolling requires a resource that can only be acquired by playing the game, and the steady increase in cost forces you to take a break and play the game. Secondly, if you're spending hundreds of dollars just to buy the platinum for a single Riven then you either have more than enough money in your pocket or problems that aren't DE's responsibility. Thirdly, if you already have a Riven for that weapon then you're an idiot if you go to spend platinum on a 'god-rolled' Riven and I have no pity for you. Fourthly, any parent who gives their child free access to both Warframe and their credit card is a bad parent, and also not DE's responsibility. Rivens are still fulfilling the purpose of strengthening weak weapons (see the Opticor and Scoliac), the only problem is that DE isn't nerfing the Disposition when a garbage weapon gets a Prime, which I agree is a problem that should be solved (looking at you, Gram and Tiberon).

[ShortCat]

13 minutes ago, fishworshipper said:

if you're spending hundreds of dollars just to buy the platinum for a single Riven then you either have more than enough money in your pocket or problems that aren't DE's responsibility

The role mechanic works just like a slotmashine and will release endorphine and influence people prone to such actions. Rolling requires Kuva, which can be farmed and will be farmed 24/7 and can be boosted with purchasable bossters. The initial gambling addiction goes into gaming addiction. The money those people spend on gambling/gaming in most cases comes from stealing or borrowing. Just because someone spend a hefty sum on plat does not mean prosperity. Legaly, DE's guilt is debatable, but morally it would be their responsibility to prevent such behaviour.

22 minutes ago, fishworshipper said:

Thirdly, if you already have a Riven for that weapon then you're an idiot if you go to spend platinum on a 'god-rolled' Riven and I have no pity for you.

Unfortunately, there are people who are doing exactly that, due weakness of character or lack of life expereince or even intelligence. They also exist in Warframe, otherwise digital items would not be traded for such ammounts. And again, there is no legal obligation that pressures DE, but a moral one. 

[fishworshipper]

42 minutes ago, Yatazanami said:

please read my points again before strawmanning me to oblivion ,  you clearly not arguing the point in the first place , how did we get here ? who made this patch to walk on for us ? 

its DE for god sake stop sugar coating it , they removed a cash grab system because it was too obvious , and they kept one that effect the core game and the way you play

and what weapon its make it alluring to use this cancer with , and didnt they say this system was for weak weapons only ? answer me now ! didn they say it was to break the meta ?

my god you're really hard to keep in point , DE still make money from the trading system either ways it dosent take a genius to figure out why we have slots,potatos , formas , rushes 

and all the cosmetics fluffs in the market now , and whether you get the plat from trading your riven or by arcanes , somebody did pay for it , and theres no shortage of them

DE get all this figured out

,we're not asking for too much for Christ sake ... fix the game by implementing good game designs instead of rng on top of rng crutches 

that are getting used on supermans that can fly and you're doing nothing about .

I did read your points. I digested them and tried to find the underlying beliefs and assumptions that spawned them. 

What do you mean "it's DE for god's sake"? What's your point? 

Rivens aren't a crash grab system. Nothing in the Riven system costs money. Furthermore, Rivens don't affect the core gameplay at all. They literally don't even exist until you've done certain quests. The only part of the core gameplay loop they change is how many times you Forma a weapon that you like.

Slots, Reactors/Catalysts, Forma and rushing are unrelated to the Trade system. I know, because they all existed before the Trade system did. 

As I said in my previous post, a great deal of platinum is bought without trade in mind, due to Prime Access and 75% off coupons.

I agree that Riven Dispositions need to be updated, but your arguments are absurd and needlessly hostile.

27 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

The role mechanic works just like a slotmashine and will release endorphine and influence people prone to such actions. Rolling requires Kuva, which can be farmed and will be farmed 24/7 and can be boosted with purchasable bossters. The initial gambling addiction goes into gaming addiction. The money those people spend on gambling/gaming in most cases comes from stealing or borrowing. Just because someone spend a hefty sum on plat does not mean prosperity. Legaly, DE's guilt is debatable, but morally it would be their responsibility to prevent such behaviour.

Unfortunately, there are people who are doing exactly that, due weakness of character or lack of life expereince or even intelligence. They also exist in Warframe, otherwise digital items would not be traded for such ammounts. And again, there is no legal obligation that pressures DE, but a moral one. 

DE isn't legally or morally responsible. You cannot play video games without experiencing RNG, and you cannot exist in the modern world without being exposed to games of chance. If you are prone to being addicted to video games, there are far harsher games that exist than Warframe, and the same applies if you are prone to being addicted to gambling. For example, literally every MMORPG in existence. 

The Riven system is a tiny part of Warframe that is buried under layers of quests and has little to no impact on the overall game. It isn't a core mechanic. You can easily spend your entire time playing Warframe, potentially hundreds of hours, without ever touching it. This isn't some vast problem affecting millions of people, it's a tiny one that affects the idiotic, the irresponsible, and the undisciplined. We aren't children. It's not DE's responsibility to be our parents.

[rune_me]

5 hours ago, fishworshipper said:

Platinum isn't money.

Sure, it sometimes costs money to get platinum, but once the platinum is in the game DE makes no money off of it regardless of how it's used. DE does not profit off of trades, they only profit off of people buying Platinum. 

Of course they profit off of trade.  Platinum doesn't just appear out of thin air. It has to be bought before it can exist in the game.

So every piece of plat spend in a trade, is something that was bought at one point or another, and thus made DE money.

Edited September 26, 2018 by rune_me

[fishworshipper]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

Of course they profit off of trade.  Platinum doesn't just appear out of think air. It has to be bought before it can exist in the game.

So every piece of plat spend in a trade, is something that was bought at one point or another, and thus made DE money.

 

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

So every piece of plat spend in a trade, is something that was bought at one point or another, and thus made DE money.

 

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

thus made DE money.

Notice the past tense. Platinum changing hands between players doesn't make DE money because the platinum has already been bought, likely for reasons other than trade.

[MudShadow]

2 minutes ago, fishworshipper said:

 

 

Notice the past tense. Platinum changing hands between players doesn't make DE money because the platinum has already been bought, likely for reasons other than trade.

Yeah and when a whale blows all their platinum on a few good rivens guess what they're going to do next? that's right buy more platinum.

[fishworshipper]

Just now, MudShadow said:

Yeah and when a whale blows all their platinum on a few good rivens guess what they're going to do next? that's right buy more platinum.

Yea, but they don't just immediately go and buy platinum. They buy platinum from a Prime Access (which they would have bought anyways) or with a 75% off coupon, which they probably would have used to buy platinum anyways. I know this because I am a whale, and that's what I do. In the meantime, their old platinum gets spent by people who otherwise would not have bought any.

[rune_me]

9 minutes ago, fishworshipper said:

 

 

Notice the past tense. Platinum changing hands between players doesn't make DE money because the platinum has already been bought, likely for reasons other than trade.

Nah. If player's were unable to trade with each other, I am fairly confident that people would buy a lot less plat than they currently do. Since there would be fewer things to spend plat on. Hence DE makes money off of trade.

[fishworshipper]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

Nah. If player's were unable to trade with each other, I am fairly confident that people would buy a lot less plat than they currently do. Since there would be fewer things to spend plat on. Hence DE makes money off of trade.

Individuals would buy less plat, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that as a whole we'd probably spend more money. Warframe sucks when you have just 3 Warframe slots, 4 weapon slots, and no color palettes.

[KIREEK]

While i have some platinum, i don't spend thousands buying rivens, i could, but i always assign a budget that often ends me denying the trade, the sellers aren't monopolizing anything, i am free to decline and i do it if things are outside my budget, to me it's not gambling, unfair, direspectfull or anything of the sort, i know i can always find the riven i want for much lower, if not then i wait until i do, there is only a few weapons i actually use on a daily basis, spending thousands on a single riven for a single weapon that i might use rarely is just inneficient, the time it takes to gather the platinum would be better used on doing missions and improving the gameplay, rivens will not do that.

You got a god riven (aka the riven with the stats you most want), what you have to show me? a 79% completion rate and a 15% quit rate? I don't even bother trying to understand how will that make a player better.

Rivens are extras, like primed mods, they aren't mandatory, some ppl still can't decide which riven is better (modding, aka basic mechanics) and are paying 5k for a riven?

Sure being a seller sounds sweet, but at a certain point you enter the danger zone, the kind of deals you can now make (like primed chamber) are plagued with black market deals.

Rivens need a revision, especially for prime and non prime weapons, dispositions combined with buffs and nerfs just make some weapons underused and some overused.

I don't mind them being overused, because i can see the gameplay most provide and it's uninteresting and average at best, rivens can't cure poor gameplay, no matter how muh plat you pour in them.

A great player (and there are plenty in the very early stages of the game if you analyze things correctly) will always go further.

Sorry about the offtopicness, it's just some of you are confusing gambling, calling sellers as abusive or scammers, each player makes individual decisions and those decisons have nothing to do with simple and more regular revisions on rivens.

Edited September 26, 2018 by KIREEK

[Hypernaut1]

40 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Nah. If player's were unable to trade with each other, I am fairly confident that people would buy a lot less plat than they currently do. Since there would be fewer things to spend plat on. Hence DE makes money off of trade.

This doesn't make sense. If we were unable to trade, we'd HAVE to buy more plat to sustain gameplay. 

Trading is the main reason why I don't ever need to buy plat again. The only time I put more money into Warframe is to buy tennogen or prime accessories.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Zi-Sui]

3 hours ago, Teloch said:

Because this will ruin the simple flow for easy power creep cash that I mentioned a little above. With no certainty that the money invested into the NEW GOD RIVEN for a NEW GODLY WEAPON won't be devaluated with the predictable and inevitable nerf of the dispositions to the said new godly weapon™, customers with at least the seedlings of the cause-consequence thinking will be less prone to the seasonal purchases of the new god rivens™.

That easy.

It's all about making easy money by exploiting human psychology. Again and again. For as long as there are new candidates for power creeping.

Yeah but it would make the game more enjoyable for a lot of people because rivens would be more affordable and you could have fun with new weapons, so that would boost Warframe's reputation and add more paying customers to the mix.

I bet that eventually new players will stop buying rivens over 2k platinum because there's no point. Who in their right mind would pay over 200 bucks or euros for a single riven? Let alone 1500, like those 30k rivens cost.

After that DE needs new players to buy something else. Which could be rivens for less used weapons if they change disposition. There's so much stuff to buy with platinum in game that you can buy 20k, spend it all, and say "hey, there's still much stuff I'm missing". I just don't get why spend your money on a single riven instead.

[rune_me]

32 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This doesn't make sense. If we were unable to trade, we'd HAVE to buy more plat to sustain gameplay. 

Trading is the main reason why I don't ever need to buy plat again. The only time I put more money into Warframe is to buy tennogen or prime accessories.

If you were unable to trade with other players, you'd have everything you could buy quickly.

I mean, the great majority of plat I've spend, I've spend on vaulted primes, mods and rivens. If I couldn't have bought those things from other players, I would have had almost no use of plat, except to buy slots and potatoes, which are fairly cheap. 

There's no doubt that the player driven market is the source for most of the plat purchases in the game.

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, fishworshipper said:

 

 

Notice the past tense. Platinum changing hands between players doesn't make DE money because the platinum has already been bought, likely for reasons other than trade.

Anything that drains platinum from the games market is a good thing for DE monetarily speaking, less platinum in rotation leads to more demand for platinum from DE which means more cash purchases for them. Trading acts as a sink of sorts for platinum, with rivens being one of their biggest drains.

[Jarriaga]

13 hours ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

The Riven disposition system is basically a design flaw that doesn't really have a obvious fix.

Imagine that DE does start to do disposition revisions frequently.

Today you spend 1k plat on a Riven for a weapon with 5 dispo, a week later that weapon becomes popular and the disposition goes down to 1.

I can only imagine the outcry of the people that have invested on a Riven for their favourite weapon..

 

Wait... So disposition changes affect active rivens instad of applying only to new rivens or rolls after the change? Isn't that it's purpose, so that people won't stay fixed to the most used weapons? How is it DE's fault that you bought a 5K riven expecting for the disposition to never change?

This would be a non-factor if disposition changed daily or weekly based on usage statistics. The riven market is what it is only because DE has allowed it to grow out of control by not adjusting disposition.

13 hours ago, dEjAvU5566 said:

Nowadays people willing to buy riven for more than 4 digit because they know DE is too lazy to update disposition.

IF DE do change disposition regularly, and they should, people will think twice before dropping so much money.

Where is the developer of old days that "remove fur slot machine" so fast because some dude just wasted his money on this? 

 

Indeed.

12 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

D) has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, the "intent" of the riven system has changed since December 2016, the last time riven dispo was updated? Maybe they realized  balancing based on usage is silly and realized rivens are better off as what they are, an endgame power chase? God I am so tired of people acting like this is the end of the world.

 

Then they should flat-out say so and put an end to the discussion rather than insist they need to revise the disposition because it's not resulting in the behavior they expected. You can't have your cake and it it too. People are going to call you out on it.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Jarriaga

[SpacewalkerX]

i don't think they are going to touch the dispositions until after they are done with the melee rework