So I died of boredom in an Arbitration

[Belligerent_Engine]

6 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Honestly the basic problem is, Warframe gameplay just isn't really all that challenging. Either you bring the right gear and you can stay in the mission pretty much forever, or you don't bring the right gear and the numbers eventually overwhelm you. There's only a very small window where gameplay is challenging but not doomed. Playing the game really really well can expand that window a bit, but beyond a certain point you either CC the map or you die.

Yep, I play Warframe to bring a fun weapon and not take missions seriously to relax every now and then; and maybe to play through some new content. This particular piece of content completely misses the point because its not forgiving enough to let me bring fun stupid stuff into a mission, and not challenging enough to hold my attention if I gear up "for realsies".

[Falconer777]

I suddenly had a question. These enemies that we fight in Arbitrage - are they also emulated by the Arbitrators, as in ESO Simeris? That is, we are fighting with spectrs, or with real opponents? I just noticed yesterday that these protective drones during target designation show the "Arbitrage Drone Shield Generator", and protects ALL factions.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

I would argue that it would be better to balance the game around spam than reduce the spam, cool-downs (what a restricted energy economy effectively is) are not fun.

I disagree that restricted energy economy is equatable to cooldowns, because there's no reason players shouldn't be able to build around casting powers multiple times in succession... There just needs to be a limit, and they should have to choose which powers to cast given the situation.

I'd personally suggest a more organic system where using "lesser" powers or other special attacks (channeling, special mod-related perks for firearms) generates the energy needed to cast "greater" powers (yielding the more powerful damage/CC effects). In other words, player casting is limited but they have direct control over its availability (instead of being held prisoner by a timer).

Still, I wrote my first response to fit the existing game without getting into a full energy rework.

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

Some Warframes are perfectly balanced with effectively infinite energy, and some Warframes don't even need energy to be incredibly powerful.

For reference, which examples are you using in this instance?

I believe that for a Warframe to be properly balanced (in the spirit of allowing for a somewhat "fair" fight) with access to infinite energy, it limits the opportunities for its powers to be especially impressive and unique. When powers have to be balanced around spammability, they end up as reskins of the same minor effects.

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, although you could call it an 'effective nerf' if game systems were designed to NOT be broken by ability spam like they often are now.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not suggesting that powers should be extremely restricted in terms of availability. There just need to be some gaps where enemies get some breathing room.

I think it would be a positive change to move powers a little bit away from center stage, and improve synergies between melee/firearms/powers so that there is a bit more of a usage balance between them.

One reason I look at a power-spam paradigm as less favorable is that balancing against it mandates either

a) reducing power potency to the extent that it does not fully disable enemies/ effectively sweep enemies, or

b) giving enemies resistances, cancels, escapes, etc. to actively counter powers.

Both of these options detract from Warframe's established power fantasy IMO. When I cast my powers, I want them to work. And while I would be okay with a boss breaking out of my CC early or defending against my nuke, I wouldn't want to see some field mook do that.

Still, to each their own.

[WindigoTG]

1 hour ago, mikakor said:

yeah, so you depend now on your teammates to save your sorry *ss, because since you can't kill the drone, this means that you are FORCED TO : either run away, or die, if nobody is here to save you. so okay, you kill droneless enemies. and when one arrive to you, you're #*!%ed. nice. gg. see you next arbitration .

Psst, dood, you can kill a drone regardless of the frame you're using.

You have

Spoiler

weapons

 

[Lady_Lumia]

While I am not a meta player and far from finish the star chart and not even played sorties yet I could tell the long play a match is itself can be boring. The kingpin system which was teased in some streams ago basically reduce the waiting time because you " the clan leader " can adjust the enemy types, the level of enemy, your base beign raded so basically that is what endgame players and challenge seeking players wants. The only problem is that game mode still not finished yet and shelved somewhere in the void.

I personally would love just play 10-20 mins max a 30 min in a mission to get rewards and be challenged if I wanted challenge.

[Tsoe]

i believe a bit of smart AI would deal with  this.....

 

cause that's my only issue in frame ennemies rushing at you brainlessly

we have infested for that , why all factions are brainless?

 

 

[rastaban75]

I had a case of bugged enemy spawning yesterday. Europa Interception, you know the map, the one with the semi-demolished building leading up to an open ice area.

So, enemies pretty much didn't spawn at all on most of the map, probably one here or there every minute or so. The only place they spawned semi-regularly was the far far part of the map even beyond the entrance to the level in a little dead-end ice cave.

I wanted to leave just out of boredom, there was really nothing to do most of the time. A few rotations in and everyone extracted.

There should be bug fixing in these missions.

[Kuestenjung]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Valgaarv:

Also the main problem of warframe rigth now it´s the fact we have to wait 30 mins of boring and repetitive stuff to find a challenge, if we just had that challenge at the start of the mission things would be much better.

No it wouldn´t, simply because of the powercreep we had over the last years and will have over the next years.

And just because an enemy is Lvl 100+ and has insane amounts of health/armor doesn´t mean it´s challenging, in fact this is boring.

And the most important part you all seem to forget about is, Warframe is a horde shooter.

[Lady_Lumia]

49 minutes ago, Tsoe said:

i believe a bit of smart AI would deal with  this.....

 

cause that's my only issue in frame ennemies rushing at you brainlessly

we have infested for that , why all factions are brainless?

 

 

I agree with you because the AI in this game and overall in shooters are not so great. They could be smarter and more tactful which can make us harder a bit.

[Kimimoto]

They shouldn't have nerfed the starting level down to 60, it should've been buffed up to 100

[LarryYourWaiter]

4 hours ago, Belligerent_Engine said:

Like literally, 25 minutes in I fell into a hole and died because I was busy watching TV. The content isn't more difficult than a sortie mission, but far more tedious. Anyone with half a brain can take a tanked warframe into one of these and be effectively immortal and spam your weapon of choice till you fall asleep and die..

 

I really hope that DE can re-balance survivability at high levels to be more than a binary choice between not taking damage because of stacked damage resistance and getting one-shot by everything at some point.

 

Pre-replies to stuff I know is getting posted below:
"Take a fragile dmg dealing warframe." - Bots block your abilities and you'll get one-shot because you're not CC-ing or killing enemies.

"Just use a suboptimal build if you want a challenge" - My definition of "endgame" is a mode where content is still difficult even when you're optimizing your setup.

If it’s so easy, why did you die and fail?

[SilverRook]

My problem with arbitrations is the defence target getting one shotted at the end of wave 9/10 ..... with no revives instafail...... considering we can't MAKE it stand still either.

This is just a totally overdone endurance mode.

 

[Zi-Sui]

As an Inaros with max tank build but no Adaptation I have to start paying attention at maybe 40 minutes in survival, and even then it's not that hard if it's the infested. The invulnerability bots make it more challenging, especially with the corrupted since they have a lot of ancient healers paired with them. Takes a whole clip of my strong Pyrana to kill one bot like that at lvl 80.

I think it's fine though, the other frames ain't as boring as Inaros and there's a real penalty for dying which I'm glad for. This game's dying system is a bit lenient to my taste and arbitrations are a good change to that.

Changing enemy AI would be better than messing with the levels because if you increase the levels, squishier frames will not survive without some serious help like a Phoenix Revival Oberon. Not in the hands of most players at least. I've seen a Trinity-blessed Nezha who was played by a good player die at the 50 minute mark, my Trinity would not had lasted much longer. And the public squad I played with, everyone else died well before the 20 min mark.

Maybe Adaptation will change things a bit there and levels need to be increased because of it, but I'd rather first see how people in public squads do and not just the vocal forum people.

[GnarlsDarkley]

6 hours ago, Falconer777 said:

These enemies that we fight in Arbitrage - are they also emulated by the Arbitrators, as in ESO Simeris? That is, we are fighting with spectrs, or with real opponents? I just noticed yesterday that these protective drones during target designation show the "Arbitrage Drone Shield Generator", and protects ALL factions.

They drop loot, so I would say: no. We fight "real" opponents, not digitalized ones. As for the Drones protecting any faction is a really good question. Maybe Hexis pays the enemies to get slaughtered? Or it's like Invasions were we side with one faction? Idk

[Zephyr_TheMLGPro]

3 hours ago, LarryYourWaiter said:

If it’s so easy, why did you die and fail?

"25 minutes in I fell into a hole and died because I was busy watching TV"

Read maybe?

[ShortCat]

8 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

They shouldn't have nerfed the starting level down to 60, it should've been buffed up to 100

And what exactly would this suggestion change in the end? Right now, a PUG group will usually consist of tank Frames or Frames with DR abilities, because everyone tries to stay alive. With lvl 60, Frames like Mag or Banshee are playable without being randomly oneshot and do not require help from dedicated support Frames. Those squishy Frames function with "run 'n gun" playstyle till rotC. Rise lvl to 100 and you effectively eliminate those Frames from the roster. Or you limit them to dedicated teams with camping strats. No thanks. 

Higher starting lvl wil not change the fact, that Frames with defensive skills have several times more EHP, than those without such skills. Rise starting lvl to 150 - 200 and you will either see 4xNidus or a sewer camp party. Reason is, the so-called "endgame" is extremely limiting, boring and flawed. Do not push the game in that direction. Current scaling was not designed around tripple digits enemies and results become more obvious. At this point, Warframe reached the point, new scaling or balance pass is necessary, everything else is futile. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by ShortCat

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 8 heures, Zilchy a dit :

25 minutes? Is that all?

You expected a challenge that early in the mission? This is warframe, you have to put up with the boring start before enemies start to ramp up in levels.

If anything i think that is the biggest issue. Yesterday i run a duo survival with a firend, it took one hour of boring wading through meek mobs that die to hakf a sneeze before enemies broke lv 150 and became mildly interesting. Lowering the starting level was a mistake. 

[Falconer777]

1 час назад, GnarlsDarkley сказал:

They drop loot, so I would say: no. We fight "real" opponents, not digitalized ones. As for the Drones protecting any faction is a really good question. Maybe Hexis pays the enemies to get slaughtered? Or it's like Invasions were we side with one faction? Idk

Yes, loot is an argument. The question remains with the drones)

[Hypernaut1]

I'm thinking the alerts are breaking the 4th wall in a way. They're there just to serve as a challenge. I don't think it's part of the narrative.

Otherwise, it would take some very crazy  leaps in logic for it to make sense.

This might be the very first Warframe main game content that has no connection to the reality of the Warframe universe. It's just a random challenge alert. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[xcenic]

My wist table is:

1. Short rotation content =                                     Reward (Alerts)

2. Short duration Content + medium difficulty =    Reward +- (Invasion)

3. Short duration content + Hard difficulty =          Reward + (Sorties)

4. Long Duration content + medium difficulty =     Reward ++ (Operations events)

5. Long Duration Content + Hard difficulty=          Reward +++ (Elite Arbitration) 

 

But right now DE table in my consideration:

1. Short rotation content =                                     Reward - (Alerts)

2. Short duration Content + medium difficulty =    Reward +- (Invasion)

3. Short duration content + Hard difficulty =          Reward + (Sorties)

4. Long Duration content + medium difficulty =     Reward + (Operations events)

5. Long Duration Content + Hard difficulty=          Reward + (Elite Arbitration) 

In a game more than entertainments, people seek the feeling of place for achievement.
Let's say in my example:
I come from work to play 1:30 hours before bed and I decide to enter a mission elite which takes 30-40% of the time I can play. At the end of time I leave the mission with 2 ayatan and 1000 endo sculptures.
That feeling is not pleasant, I do not feel any progress in my character, could I use the endo to upload some mods? Yes. But to get here is more than clear that I already have a decent arsenal of weapons and mods.
It promised a content for veterans and the veterans do not think they are looking for the infinite source of Endo for these heights.
Where do I see a small line of progress? Unfortunately in rivens and I consider that this resource should have a less restricted way of achieving itself.

Plz DE defenders before anything: This is my interpretation, i dont have link, videos or any data, No i dont want to boycott DE and i dont want to murder the game. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by xcenic