DE,More nerfs?

[XaoGarrent]

To all you people acting as cheerleaders: Stop. Get some help.

The system NEVER worked out as intended and has only ever been used as either end game modifications, or a way to make flawed but already kinda good weapons scale up into late game (no amount of five star Rivens is going to make people use the Kraken). When adjusted it burns players on plat purchases (which is REALLY REALLY bad, creating buyer's remorse is a no-no) and it's horrendous design to have the power of your weapon reduce because a bunch of people jumped on a bandwagon.

Balancing around usage is just a bad idea to begin with- assuming they're actually even doing this consistently, it is literally balancing around a giant argumentum ad populum fallacy, and even if you succeed you are creating a cyclical FotM trend that fluctuates more proportionately to how frequently and critically you adjust things. So far they've been doing this by hand, and it shows even the stated metric they balance around is applied as arbitrary as it gets: the Astilla and the Javlok have the same disposition, and all the meanwhile status shotguns have not had their rivens touched precisely because of the powerful thing the enable.

The way Rivens are currently "balanced" is simply indefensible. Stop defending this, it doesn't make the rivens or the way they balance them look good, it makes you look bad. Either Rivens should have been left alone, they should have been reworked by a new metric, or they should have ditched the variable stats altogether and just made them all the same disposition. Frankly, they were a bad idea in the first place, so the best option is probably to just flatten them out, treat them as a shiny pair of boots, and forget about the whole hassle.

Edited November 14, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[peterc3]

21 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

To all you people acting as cheerleaders: Stop. Get some help.

The system NEVER worked out as intended and has only ever been used as either end game modifications, or a way to make flawed but already kinda good weapons scale up into late game (no amount of five star Rivens is going to make people use the Kraken). When adjusted it burns players on plat purchases (which is REALLY REALLY bad, creating buyer's remorse is a no-no) and it's horrendous design to have the power of your weapon reduce because a bunch of people jumped on a bandwagon.

Balancing around usage is just a bad idea to begin with- assuming they're actually even doing this consistently, it is literally balancing around a giant argumentum ad populum fallacy, and even if you succeed you are creating a cyclical FotM trend that fluctuates more proportionately to how frequently and critically you adjust things. So far they've been doing this by hand, and it shows even the stated metric they balance around is applied as arbitrary as it gets: the Astilla and the Javlok have the same disposition, and all the meanwhile status shotguns have not had their rivens touched precisely because of the powerful thing the enable.

The way Rivens are currently "balanced" is simply indefensible. Stop defending this, it doesn't make the rivens or the way they balance them look good, it makes you look bad. Either Rivens should have been left alone, they should have been reworked by a new metric, or they should have ditched the variable stats altogether and just made them all the same disposition. Frankly, they were a bad idea in the first place, so the best option is probably to just flatten them out, treat them as a shiny pair of boots, and forget about the whole hassle.

Or, they do what they always said they would do and alter the Disposition based on the usage of the weapons and continue to ignore people who think their personal feelings trump how they run their game's mechanics and their feel of the health of their game.

If you spent serious Plat on Rivens and did not do so with the full knowledge you were buying something that could change at any moment, you should not have bought it. Frankly, that applies to the entire game. People spend Plat on frames, but that doesn't stop DE from making changes to those frames. Same with weapons.

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

Or, they do what they always said they would do and alter the Disposition based on the usage of the weapons and continue to ignore people who think their personal feelings trump how they run their game's mechanics and their feel of the health of their game.

The projection exuding from you is absolutely palpable. Don't talk about other people's feelings when you can't even read enough to realize the argument you're responding to shuts down your canned response.

[Sylenros]

IMO, dynamically change riven disposition is good, but they should affect the new re-roll value only, not the existing one.

The old value should stay on that riven until owner decide to re-roll it, only after that then the new disposition is in effect. This would reward players who decided to try something new (rarely used weapon with 4-5 disposition), as they are like spear-head of the trend. 

[-AiLuoLi-]

4 minutes ago, Sylenros said:

IMO, dynamically change riven disposition is good, but they should affect the new re-roll value only, not the existing one.

The old value should stay on that riven until owner decide to re-roll it, only after that then the new disposition is in effect. This would reward players who decided to try something new (rarely used weapon with 4-5 disposition), as they are like spear-head of the trend. 

And then turn the existing god roll riven into exclusive mod worth as much as primed chamber? No thanks.

Edited November 14, 2018 by -AiLuoLi-

[Sylenros]

4 minutes ago, -AiLuoLi- said:

And then turn the existing god roll riven into exclusive mod worth as much as primed chamber? No thanks.

Hmm... what you said is true.

How about add one more restriction, riven with disposition lowered cannot be trade until rolled with new disposition, and can be re-roll for free once after the disposition change. 

Will this solve the problem you stated?

[-AiLuoLi-]

10 minutes ago, Sylenros said:

Hmm... what you said is true.

How about add one more restriction, riven with disposition lowered cannot be trade until rolled with new disposition, and can be re-roll for free once after the disposition change. 

Will this solve the problem you stated?

It might. But it doesn't solve the exclusive part. Warframe community HATES exclusivity, eg : Founder stuff.

I remember the dev stated at one point that they try not to introduce exclusive stuffs again.

[Blackthorn66]

2 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

The projection exuding from you is absolutely palpable. Don't talk about other people's feelings when you can't even read enough to realize the argument you're responding to shuts down your canned response.

It doesn't shut down his canned response. Like...at all. 

[BulletsforTeeth]

15 minutes ago, Blackthorn66 said:

It doesn't shut down his canned response. Like...at all. 

Leave the troll to his mountain of salt, talking achieves nothing.

DE did good by it's word. It's not a perfect system, but it's pretty much the only method they have of regulating useage without a system-wide overhaul of basically everything. I mean even melee 3.0 has been talked about for a year, imagine what a massive undertaking of everything would entail. I don't wish that on the devs, frankly put I don't feel all that strongly about rivens but the system works pretty well so far. Is it the be all end all? Hell no, but it's pretty good despite that.

Right now what we see is shortsighted people getting salty because they can't read fine print.

Edited November 14, 2018 by BulletsforTeeth

[DerGreif2]

The riven system on its own is a gamble. You can see wich weapons people bring to the field and you know that rivens are balaced around that. Be clever and if you see everyone and there sister play with an Arcor there could be a negative change incoming.

 

Also people are overreacting. You dont need rivens anyway. So many of the riven users rarly play 20 min missions so they dont even need rivens...

[XaoGarrent]

5 hours ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

Leave the troll to his mountain of salt, talking achieves nothing.

I presented a valid argument, you three have presented nothing but contrarian noise.

5 hours ago, Blackthorn66 said:

It doesn't shut down his canned response. Like...at all. 

Case in point. If this person (or for that matter you) had actually read what I said they'd see clearly that I had already debunked the idea of "balancing around usage" in not one but two ways. Both in terms of them "doing good by their word," and the whole idea being any good to begin with. They've been anything but consistent here, there's glaring examples, even ones by their own admission, where they're not following their own rules. Rules that are, in themselves, flawed for all the same reasons that an argument from popularity is flawed.

I'm getting called a troll because I used logic and nobody here is actually capable or willing of addressing reality. Hence why I was saying nobody here should want to bring up personal feelings, because that is in fact a losing battle for all the people defending the status quo regarding Rivens. The current system is a hot mess on every single level, that is just a truism at this point.

Edited November 14, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[Chappie]

6 hours ago, -AiLuoLi- said:

It might. But it doesn't solve the exclusive part. Warframe community HATES exclusivity, eg : Founder stuff.

I remember the dev stated at one point that they try not to introduce exclusive stuffs again.

I do not hate exclusivity,  The founders can have their special items for what they did to bring this game to market.   So, do I need to turn my community card in and go somewhere else?  Also...I think you took the dev "exclusivity" comment out of context...but such is the way of internet arguments.  

[Spectre-8]

13 hours ago, (PS4)F5-3EN6-MKJ7377 said:

De, The BR Comunity isn't Liking The riven nerfs. I mean, My friends Spent a lot of time Farming Kuva, platinum Endo Credits,To just Lose 20%,30% stats On Many weapons, I guess the majority of people Didn't Liked it, And all nerfs, I know The Developers is just Trying to Balance the game BUT......TELL ME, if the staticor nuke was ganking anyone?? If the Trinity Nuke 2.0 by summit was affecting players? Then now Rivens?? Do not go this way.... im Starting This topic because a lot of people feel like me . And sorry for this Bad grammar, Like i said We are BR

HUEHUE

 

[BulletsforTeeth]

17 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I presented a valid argument, you three have presented nothing but contrarian noise.

Case in point. If this person (or for that matter you) had actually read what I said they'd see clearly that I had already debunked the idea of "balancing around usage" in not one but two ways. Both in terms of them "doing good by their word," and the whole idea being any good to begin with. They've been anything but consistent here, there's glaring examples, even ones by their own admission, where they're not following their own rules. Rules that are, in themselves, flawed for all the same reasons that an argument from popularity is flawed.

I'm getting called a troll because I used logic and nobody here is actually capable or willing of addressing reality. Hence why I was saying nobody here should want to bring up personal feelings, because that is in fact a losing battle for all the people defending the status quo regarding Rivens. The current system is a hot mess on every single level, that is just a truism at this point.

The reason you're getting called a troll is, in fact, because the only 'facts' you have presented all boil down to attacks on the developers, or the even more simplistic ad-hominems. I'm sorry, but I won't bother to waste the effort of speaking with someone focused more on putting down others than actually discussing things. You manage to sound intelligent while doing it, but that means nothing when all you can do is attack others.

I could expend the effort to prove you invariably wrong, but why? Your type only get your rocks off on stirring up drama, so I'll step out here.

Edited November 15, 2018 by BulletsforTeeth

[Bombarder0]

I am sorry op

but

[XaoGarrent]

55 minutes ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

because the only 'facts' you have presented all boil down to attacks on the developers

By the standards of sycophants, anything short of brainless praise is an attack. Good thing I don't operate on subjective standards.

Edited November 15, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

On 2018-11-13 at 10:22 PM, XaoGarrent said:

To all you people acting as cheerleaders: Stop. Get some help.

The system NEVER worked out as intended and has only ever been used as either end game modifications, or a way to make flawed but already kinda good weapons scale up into late game (no amount of five star Rivens is going to make people use the Kraken). When adjusted it burns players on plat purchases (which is REALLY REALLY bad, creating buyer's remorse is a no-no) and it's horrendous design to have the power of your weapon reduce because a bunch of people jumped on a bandwagon.

Balancing around usage is just a bad idea to begin with- assuming they're actually even doing this consistently, it is literally balancing around a giant argumentum ad populum fallacy, and even if you succeed you are creating a cyclical FotM trend that fluctuates more proportionately to how frequently and critically you adjust things. So far they've been doing this by hand, and it shows even the stated metric they balance around is applied as arbitrary as it gets: the Astilla and the Javlok have the same disposition, and all the meanwhile status shotguns have not had their rivens touched precisely because of the powerful thing the enable.

The way Rivens are currently "balanced" is simply indefensible. Stop defending this, it doesn't make the rivens or the way they balance them look good, it makes you look bad. Either Rivens should have been left alone, they should have been reworked by a new metric, or they should have ditched the variable stats altogether and just made them all the same disposition. Frankly, they were a bad idea in the first place, so the best option is probably to just flatten them out, treat them as a shiny pair of boots, and forget about the whole hassle.

First let's set things straight.  I'm no cheerleader for DE, but this block of text contains both some truths and some dishonesty.  Let's start with the truths (due to I want you to read this and not ignore it if I started with the dishonesty).  You are absolutely right that the system never worked out as intended because even Steve said that they had dropped the ball on making sure that rivens were adjusted accordingly.  They only adjusted rivens for the Prime variants of weapons when they came out and whenever they added a new weapon to the pool the riven was dispositioned accordingly. 

And balancing around weapon usage is technically a bad idea because it does create this weird boom bust cycle with the rivens and if done in small increments will achieve nothing but if done over a larger time span can cause many rivens to drop drastically.  I'm actually surprised certain weapons didn't drop further given the time frame that they had to work with and other weapons shot up in disposition.

I agree that the rivens should be reworked by a new metric or have static values so that these 'God Roll' prices and posts in trade chat can go away.  They were a bad idea, but DE wanted to pad the weapon system that they didn't have the man power at the time to overhaul.

 

Now let's tackle this dishonesty for a bit.  Considering that when rivens were introduced they were said that they were going to be adjusted based on usage would have been the first red flag that buying any riven for over 200pl would be a huge risk.  Also lets take into account the youtubers show people the power of weapons with so called 'God Roll' Rivens.  Atterax, Lecta, (Pre-Nerf)Telos Boltace. People start to envy that power and want it.  And most of them go about getting said riven to do the OP things.  As another poster already said buyer remorse happens alot around here because nerfs and changes happen frequently.  I play on console so I never saw the Macro blender Telos but I bet it was fun for all of 2 games and people just got sick of not being able to kill stuff.

Yes the status Shotgun rivens haven't been touched due to if they are adjusted even a little they can no longer achieve 100% status.  In a game where in endurance runs status becomes important its hard to justify that nerf with just it was too popular because in the case of the Kohm it is very Ammo inefficient, the Sobek is an impact based shotgun.(can't recall any others that evaded the nerf as those are the only 2 I know.) Other shotguns got hit Arca Plasmor and Hek just to point out a few.

Also this was probably becoming too much of a problem with rivens reaching plat values of over 3000pl at times and people screwing other players by using ill gotten plat. Which left some players getting hit with negative plat values after that plat was removed from the game. With the game giving them automatic bans until they got their plat values in good standing.  Essentially these people had to pay DE, through no fault of their own, to regain access to their accounts.  Were all of them innocent? Maybe not, but what we do know is some innocents got caught up in it. So a reset of riven prices should stabilize that problem.  Again that is mere conjecture on my part.

 

17 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I presented a valid argument, you three have presented nothing but contrarian noise.

Case in point. If this person (or for that matter you) had actually read what I said they'd see clearly that I had already debunked the idea of "balancing around usage" in not one but two ways. Both in terms of them "doing good by their word," and the whole idea being any good to begin with. They've been anything but consistent here, there's glaring examples, even ones by their own admission, where they're not following their own rules. Rules that are, in themselves, flawed for all the same reasons that an argument from popularity is flawed.

I'm getting called a troll because I used logic and nobody here is actually capable or willing of addressing reality. Hence why I was saying nobody here should want to bring up personal feelings, because that is in fact a losing battle for all the people defending the status quo regarding Rivens. The current system is a hot mess on every single level, that is just a truism at this point.

Well it is a hot mess but I think you are missing the entire point of this.  the Riven system is suppose to be dynamic.  Its suppose to change to force players to try different loadouts since most of us tend to only use what we are comfortable with.  Does it sting that most of the rivens got nerfed? Yes it does but that was what the system was suppose to do all along. They dropped the ball, but they have picked it back up and now we see the backlash of those who are either.

A.) Mad about their wasted investment

B.)Mad that their ultra 'God Roll' Riven isn't as powerful as it used to be despite still being a 'God Roll'

C.)Upset that the plat machine of riven trading has crashed.

 

All in all I think this system should go but since DE is gonna keep it. Meh.

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

10 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

By the standards of sycophants, anything short of brainless praise is an attack. Good thing I don't operate on subjective standards.

I hate that mindset as well.

[beercritch]

I've read this and find that all I want is confirmation what BR actually means ?  lol

[XaoGarrent]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Tenchi145 said:

Now let's tackle this dishonesty for a bit.  Considering that when rivens were introduced they were said that they were going to be adjusted based on usage would have been the first red flag that buying any riven for over 200pl would be a huge risk.  Also lets take into account the youtubers show people the power of weapons with so called 'God Roll' Rivens.  Atterax, Lecta, (Pre-Nerf)Telos Boltace. People start to envy that power and want it.  And most of them go about getting said riven to do the OP things.  As another poster already said buyer remorse happens alot around here because nerfs and changes happen frequently.  I play on console so I never saw the Macro blender Telos but I bet it was fun for all of 2 games and people just got sick of not being able to kill stuff.

Yes the status Shotgun rivens haven't been touched due to if they are adjusted even a little they can no longer achieve 100% status.  In a game where in endurance runs status becomes important its hard to justify that nerf with just it was too popular because in the case of the Kohm it is very Ammo inefficient, the Sobek is an impact based shotgun.(can't recall any others that evaded the nerf as those are the only 2 I know.) Other shotguns got hit Arca Plasmor and Hek just to point out a few.

Also this was probably becoming too much of a problem with rivens reaching plat values of over 3000pl at times and people screwing other players by using ill gotten plat. Which left some players getting hit with negative plat values after that plat was removed from the game. With the game giving them automatic bans until they got their plat values in good standing.  Essentially these people had to pay DE, through no fault of their own, to regain access to their accounts.  Were all of them innocent? Maybe not, but what we do know is some innocents got caught up in it. So a reset of riven prices should stabilize that problem.  Again that is mere conjecture on my part.

 

Well it is a hot mess but I think you are missing the entire point of this.  the Riven system is suppose to be dynamic.  Its suppose to change to force players to try different loadouts since most of us tend to only use what we are comfortable with.  Does it sting that most of the rivens got nerfed? Yes it does but that was what the system was suppose to do all along. They dropped the ball, but they have picked it back up and now we see the backlash of those who are either.

A.) Mad about their wasted investment

B.)Mad that their ultra 'God Roll' Riven isn't as powerful as it used to be despite still being a 'God Roll'

C.)Upset that the plat machine of riven trading has crashed.

 

All in all I think this system should go but since DE is gonna keep it. Meh.

I'm just going to cut straight to the chase because I actually hate reading my own posts over and over as I'm responded to in what amounts to agreement. I do that enough trying to stamp out spelling and grammar errors. So I'm going to try and save other people that trouble.

There is one flaw right off the bat with your argument that people defending this seem to keep making, but everyone who's against it seems to comprehend on a fundamental level: Actions speak louder than words. And make no mistake, inaction in itself is a form of action. It's still a choice, it still has a logical outcome. In fact, it's why I often argue that one of the strongest positions you can take when voting on something is to simply, and if possible, visibly abstain. Inaction is an incredible messaging tool, assuming it doesn't outright cause some desired outcome in and of itself.

The result of such a thing is that if the developers say something is subject to change, and then proceed to make no changes whatsoever for extraneous periods of time, you are pitting one single statement against an extended period inaction where that statement was not made good on, when by any reasonable perception some kind of change should have been made. 

This not only invalidates their statement, but it means those that remained wary of the statement are going to experience decreased consumer confidence because it demonstrates a great deal of unpredictability on the part of DE. They don't act when they seem like they should act, both logically and in terms of their own words, and when they finally do act, they do so in a manner that is, even by your own admission, inconsistent. ...And hilariously revealing, their changes to the Plasmor demonstrates that not even they view it as a status shotgun internally.

Quote

The Arca Plasmor received a change yesterday where headshots no longer deal bonus damage. The Arca Plasmor was designed to hit multiple targets with a high-status chance,

...That amusing piece of trivia aside... I'd also like to point out that the above actually does a good job of demonstrating why caveat emptor is an incredibly stupid response to pretty much anything, especially a situation like this. I counter the 'buyer beware' and 'they warned you' sentiment with "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." If DE says they are going to change something in response to player action, and over a prolonged period of time they repeatedly fail to do anything in response to player action when it was clear they should have based off their stated criteria, the fool here is not the person who expected them to continue the current course of (in)action.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that anyone that legitimately holds out that long expecting they'll do what they said with a high degree of certainty has logical problems of their own they need to sort out, and more likely most of the people blanket defending these changes with this line of logic are doing so in bad faith. That amount of negatives should put absolutely anyone in doubt of their real intentions, and even now there should still be doubt because, again, the level of inconsistency.

There really isn't any dishonesty in my argument. But I suspect there's a lot of dishonestly coming from those it's pitted against. And it's very unfortunate that's what people feel they need to resort to.

EDIT: Also, I'm not in any of those camps. I'm in the camp that is just displeased with Rivens on a whole. At best this patch was just experienced as an out of the blue nerf in the one place where Rivens actually perform a useful role (end game gear), and at worst it was a disappointment in total at the fact the system isn't doing anything meanwhile elsewhere. My Plasmor is mildly worse, and my Javlok is still just sitting there wondering why it's not the Astilla, but it's dispositioned like it.

Why all three of these guns share the same disposition with the Phantasma is as disappointing as it is confusing. If the Riven system is meant to be dynamic (and I'm aware it is), it's clearly not producing good results in being so.

Edited November 15, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

-sigh-  You know what I tried to level with you and be reasonable. I won't quote you though out of respect that you don't like sifting through your own post. Look I understand that you're frustrated over their inaction as was everyone else and they were repeatedly called out on it.  Hell me and another user started a topic a long while back because we could not do mastery tests due to failing them before we even loaded in.  It took us about half a year to get that to be looked at.  We had done everything. Support tickets, set our console to DMZ port forwarding everything to prove it wasn't on our end.  It takes a massive event to get DE to notice these small problems because eventually they balloon into big problems and right now rivens have done the same as our problem. Other players had warned them about this months ago and they still took their time and now they have the other part of the player base who invested in the stagnant riven system up in arms. 

Again I feel your pain, but it was stated to happen and most of us knew better.  When you've been in this game for so long you know every system is subject to change.  Archwing changes that no one wanted. Saryn re-re-rework. Hydroid Prime Trailer(??????Like come on). People have been pushing for these things and Abstaining from things does nothing but make it so that its even harder to change things.  You have to keep pushing your problems with the game to the front, find other like minded people and have them join in.  Enact change don't berate those of us who are indifferent or fine with it.  As I see it if it makes the weaker among you stronger then its good for everyone.

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

Also we all know why they kept it like it was for so long.  Plat sales.  Again the incident I mentioned in my past post is my reasoning for why they killed their own cash cow.

[XaoGarrent]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Tenchi145 said:

-sigh-  You know what I tried to level with you and be reasonable. I won't quote you though out of respect that you don't like sifting through your own post. Look I understand that you're frustrated over their inaction as was everyone else and they were repeatedly called out on it.  Hell me and another user started a topic a long while back because we could not do mastery tests due to failing them before we even loaded in.  It took us about half a year to get that to be looked at.  We had done everything. Support tickets, set our console to DMZ port forwarding everything to prove it wasn't on our end.  It takes a massive event to get DE to notice these small problems because eventually they balloon into big problems and right now rivens have done the same as our problem. Other players had warned them about this months ago and they still took their time and now they have the other part of the player base who invested in the stagnant riven system up in arms. 

Again I feel your pain, but it was stated to happen and most of us knew better.  When you've been in this game for so long you know every system is subject to change.  Archwing changes that no one wanted. Saryn re-re-rework. Hydroid Prime Trailer(??????Like come on). People have been pushing for these things and Abstaining from things does nothing but make it so that its even harder to change things.  You have to keep pushing your problems with the game to the front, find other like minded people and have them join in.  Enact change don't berate those of us who are indifferent or fine with it.  As I see it if it makes the weaker among you stronger then its good for everyone.

We have a very different idea on what reasonable means. None of this addresses the problem, and a random bug that it took them a long time to fix is really not comparable to an entire system within the game that they should be very aware of the general state of.

On that note, people going into negative plat and getting their accounts banned is in no way a logical prompt to start making good on a statement that hadn't been followed up on since basically the inception of the system. What it's a good logical prompt for is to stop auto banning people in a guilty until proven innocent manner ...Well I mean, unless you're a fan of Nef Anyo, I guess. I mean, the whole harvest your organs now and ask questions later seems to suggest he prefers guilty until proven innocent. Don't be like Nef, kids.

Jokes aside, the fact of the matter is that DE should be better than this. They knew not to touch meme-ing strike until they could get around to working on melee as a whole proper, and they're very clearly aware of the fact the spin to win meta is born out of flaws in the greater melee system. Which shows they are FULLY capable of doing this kind of critical analysis and not jumping the gun with a half baked and badly aligned response.

...Then again I suppose there's also the sorry state of Ember as a counterpoint to that. But again, if people like you just defend them with their past failures, that's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. As I said before, sometimes inaction is actually the best action, they should have left things alone for a while longer. If not indefinitely. There's bigger fish to fry and all they managed to do is piss in a bunch of people's tasty wheat.

[Lucifer490]

On 2018-11-14 at 6:52 AM, krc473 said:

Perhaps people need to understand rivens before complaining about nerfs. DE has always said that they would be balanced around weapon usage in the community (disposition). DE has always said this is a dynamic thing. If you do not know what you are buying, do not buy it.

 

The other things were about trivialising game content. It’s not much fun when you cannot do anything in a mission because someone is killing all of the enemies instantly. The Trinity nuke was affecting players.

I personally think that the entire concept of rivens being based on popularity was dumb. Sure, that was the original idea but after the introduction of rivens and the way the market boomed, DE should have realized that adding a dynamic system to such high value object was a ticking time bomb, besides, DE should have released the changes atleast 6 months in advance for the market to react to it.Regarding the changes being valid or not, i personally feel like there was a much better way to increase the popularity of less-used weps than nerfing the popular weps

As for trivializing game content, you cannot control how people like to play the game. Don't like people getting more kills? play solo or team up in a like minded squad. No one is forcing you to play with people like this. Plus, it wasn't even remotely common enough to affect a large enough player base to validate the changes. Also, tbh any of the meta rigs in the game trivialize almost everything, if we're using the that argument, then everything in warframe needs a nerf. 

[Rayden_Tenno]

35 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I'm just going to cut straight to the chase because I actually hate reading my own posts over and over as I'm responded to in what amounts to agreement. I do that enough trying to stamp out spelling and grammar errors. So I'm going to try and save other people that trouble.

There is one flaw right off the bat with your argument that people defending this seem to keep making, but everyone who's against it seems to comprehend on a fundamental level: Actions speak louder than words. And make no mistake, inaction in itself is a form of action. It's still a choice, it still has a logical outcome. In fact, it's why I often argue that one of the strongest positions you can take when voting on something is to simply, and if possible, visibly abstain. Inaction is an incredible messaging tool, assuming it doesn't outright cause some desired outcome in and of itself.

The result of such a thing is that if the developers say something is subject to change, and then proceed to make no changes whatsoever for extraneous periods of time, you are pitting one single statement against an extended period inaction where that statement was not made good on, when by any reasonable perception some kind of change should have been made. 

This not only invalidates their statement, but it means those that remained wary of the statement are going to experience decreased consumer confidence because it demonstrates a great deal of unpredictability on the part of DE. They don't act when they seem like they should act, both logically and in terms of their own words, and when they finally do act, they do so in a manner that is, even by your own admission, inconsistent. ...And hilariously revealing, their changes to the Plasmor demonstrates that not even they view it as a status shotgun internally.

...That amusing piece of trivia aside... I'd also like to point out that the above actually does a good job of demonstrating why caveat emptor is an incredibly stupid response to pretty much anything, especially a situation like this. I counter the 'buyer beware' and 'they warned you' sentiment with "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." If DE says they are going to change something in response to player action, and over a prolonged period of time they repeatedly fail to do anything in response to player action when it was clear they should have based off their stated criteria, the fool here is not the person who expected them to continue the current course of (in)action.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that anyone that legitimately holds out that long expecting they'll do what they said with a high degree of certainty has logical problems of their own they need to sort out, and more likely most of the people blanket defending these changes with this line of logic are doing so in bad faith. That amount of negatives should put absolutely anyone in doubt of their real intentions, and even now there should still be doubt because, again, the level of inconsistency.

There really isn't any dishonesty in my argument. But I suspect there's a lot of dishonestly coming from those it's pitted against. And it's very unfortunate that's what people feel they need to resort to.

EDIT: Also, I'm not in any of those camps. I'm in the camp that is just displeased with Rivens on a whole. At best this patch was just experienced as an out of the blue nerf in the one place where Rivens actually perform a useful role (end game gear), and at worst it was a disappointment in total at the fact the system isn't doing anything meanwhile elsewhere. My Plasmor is mildly worse, and my Javlok is still just sitting there wondering why it's not the Astilla, but it's dispositioned like it.

Why all three of these guns share the same disposition with the Phantasma is as disappointing as it is confusing. If the Riven system is meant to be dynamic (and I'm aware it is), it's clearly not producing good results in being so.

Oh boi, im having troll tears for breakfast! DE already said they would change rivens as much and as often as they want. You just can't listen. You're too burried in your own headcannon world. Anyways, now maybe you'll think before spending so much plat/money. 

I love when people get mad about riven. It really shows that there are people out there who would even gift their house without them knowing it.