Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[Talinthis]

8 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

And it's dead for years M9 , your point being ?

It's one of the most popular mmo games right now. Just because you have a hard on to hate it doesnt make you correct.

[Rakosta_Kai]

8 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

Now that we know that you for the most part play dead games let's you know

Move on 🤣

I've been playing both this game and GW2 since launch so I must be playing dead games too.

...For that matter, so are you.

[seprent]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

It's been a dry week. 

Besides, with the copious amount of baiting some people just can't help themselves

well just because the ship is sinking doesn't mean you cant do a spot of fishing 

[unagy]

4 hours ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

The opposite is much worse - having the entire thing scaled to 'endgame' players who fight level 300 enemies for fun, or whatever people do when the game can't reasonably challenge them. They're both wrong, of course. It's obvious even DE wants to meet in the middle - things like the alert level shows that, it's not just for newbs or vets, and anyone asking to cater to one or the other exclusively is out of their mind.

I was distilling the essence of what many players are demanding to be done for them. I was not proposing the opposite nor asking the devs to cater to it exclusively. It's not a problem with only two solutions - enemies need not be either level 10 or level 255, so to speak.

 

8 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Fair point.

But froma  business perspective do you think advertising Fortuna and having it be endgame only would bring in new players?

Do you think the new players would endure the full duration of Warframe just to play Fortuna?

Taking Eidolons as an example. A lot of new players left because they could never fight one. As fighting one required essentially clearing the star chart which is asking a lot when said content (PoE) is being pushed as the game changing update.

In Fortuna's case...it would have been a bait & switch.

"Hey come play Warframe & experience Fortuna"

Players get game & log in...

"You'll get to visit Fortuna after you've done all this: (Entire damn game gets listed.)"

Imagine the gaming news articles, YouTube vids, blogs, podcasts, & etc.

Heh, it'd be Wildstar's PVP update all over again.

Same as above, but to add on. Let me put it another way. My memory is hazy but if memory serves (and for illustration purposes): the node on the planet says level 10-30, there are bounties of many level brackets starting at level 5-15, and the enemies in free roam start from level 10-15. On the flip side, there are also level 40-60 bounties and I believe an NPC warning (from Onkko?) that night is dangerous. Do people need a physical slap in the face to realise there's more than they might think?

If it's advertised as a game-changing update, then it'd better change the game for many people. It's not touted as a New-Player-Experience-changing update.

With all this, yes, I don't care about the specific players who are leaving because and only because the Teralyst tore them a new one when they were expecting a Thanksgiving vacation to the Plains. If they are unwilling to accept the fact that once in a while something kills them, that in a free-roam map in a co-op game something is scaled to be higher than them, then - bringing it back to the topic - these are the players in question which I feel we should be talking about when discussing which demographic DE panders to.

And you know what, from a business perspective, they should. The amount of new people who will drop some spare change into this new hype thing of the month is considerable, and whine all we want, we aren't going to stop playing or stop buying plat just because things are suddenly downscaled. 

(I also don't care for the majority of videogame reporters who are honestly garbage at games, so the 'gaming news articles' matter to me even less.)

So the question becomes, should the game cater to the person/people who expect/s the sea to part for them, or those who embrace the game as an experience? I'm sure there are similarities to someone complaining about the Stalker or the Juggernaut.

Edited November 24, 2018 by unagy
Grammar. And extra point.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, unagy said:

With all this, yes, I don't care about the specific players who are leaving because and only because the Teralyst tore them a new one when they were expecting a Thanksgiving vacation to the Plains. If they are unwilling to accept the fact that once in a while something kills them, that in a free-roam map in a co-op game something is scaled to be higher than them, then - bringing it back to the topic - these are the players in question which I feel we should be talking about when discussing which demographic DE panders to.

I wasn't saying folks bailed because they died.

They bailed because they basically were shown content that is inaccessible for hundreds of hours. Which comes across as a bait & switch seeing how DE marketed PoE.

Obviously DE is ensuring thay Fortuna won't suffer the same mistakes as PoE.

I am 100% not arguing against Veteran content. However I firmly disagree with the mindset of the thread that all new content needs to be veteran level.

Warframe already struggles (extremely) to both bring in new players & retain new players.

I keep naming games such as Vanguard & Wildstar because those games ultimate did listen to the veteran/hardcore playerbase.

Which actually killed them. There simply are NOT enough veterans/hardcore players to keep a game alive.

In Warframes case, the more experienced & progressed a player becomes the lower the odds they will spend money. Once a player reaches veteran status "per say" they can farm all the frames, primes, resources, mods, potatoes, & forma that they will ever need.

So for Warframe to cater to them would have the same effect that Destiny 2's renewed focus is having.

Which is one that pushes away all newcomers & leaves only the veteran playerbase remaining. Which leads to long MM times, lack of players in the world, & eventually content drives out because the developer gets starved for the finances required to develop more content.

Warframe actually NEEDS to be more new player friendly & welcoming not the opposite.

I'm sticking to my guns with the idea of a complete revamp of enemies.

It would bring forth a challenge in combat & it would be one that persists across all levels.

[Falconer777]

12 часов назад, Spectre-8 сказал:

Now that we know that you for the most part play dead games let's you know

Move on 🤣

GW2 is very far from death) This is a great game, and now it is full of people.

I know this not from hearsay - I myself play almost from the very beginning (with interruptions).

[DreisterDino]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

Of course I am, just as anyone who claims to be asking for endgame is talking in general terms, because they can never actually show that there's any consensus of what that is, in the first place. 

We are talking about all kinds of stuff right now which makes this discussion just way too complicated.

All these Threads came up because there have been people that liked the Gameplay in Fortuna pre-hotfix 24.0.4. And then it got changed.

Its as simple as that, so there is a consensus about what we ask for - the possibility to play that content like that again.

 

Although the discussion has been driven into several directions by either the people who defend the change and used the word "endgame" as an counter-argument or by people that disliked the change and took the opportunity to talk about the general lack of challenging content - this whole discussion only exists because lots of people liked pre-hotfix gameplay.

 

 

 

And there is also a consensus about the lack of challenging content - when you say "Dont use certain guns, mods and frames to have a challenge" you simply acknowledge that the game doesnt provide any sort of challenge on its own unless the players themselves create that challenge. Even if you dont agree that Warframe should provide some sort of challenge, you acknowledge the lack of challenging content.

Edited November 24, 2018 by DreisterDino

[(NSW)Neeto]

On 2018-11-14 at 3:14 AM, Nihil501 said:

Again......and even if FOR YOU it is a dumb exuse that it is a location on one of the BEGINNER planets, it still IS!

Nothing less, nothing more.

You want a challange? This game has soooo many game modes where you can have or create a challenge.

There is a saying in our country. Help yourself, and only than, god will help you out too. (I'm not religious but it's a good one)

I see from where you are coming from and you all mighty old veterans want to have some special snowflake care from DE, but as I said.....go and pick the highest difficulty, and make yourself some modifiers. Like not using specific mods or weapons or damage types. Ect. So easy man so easy.

I'm a new player but I'd like to give an outside perspective coming from other games, specifically World of Warcraft.

And I'd like to basically say that this is a very weak argument. Having to CREATE a challenge to have a challenge is, generally, not great game design in a massive online game. Most players don't want to create a challenge when there is no extra reward to incentivize them. Half the fun is doing difficult content which doesn't result in a grindfest to obtain the best mods/items. Simply increasing enemy health and damage isn't a good way to do this, it's just lazy when that's the only way to make the game difficult. Maybe this isn't the right location in the game to have difficult content, but end game content should be somewhat difficult or at least offer a ramp up in difficulty to accommodate those seeking a challenge.

Edited November 24, 2018 by (NSW)Neeto

[(PSN)Zero_029]

28 minutes ago, (NSW)Neeto said:

Having to CREATE a challenge to have a challenge is, generally, not great game design in a massive online game. Most players don't want to create a challenge when there is no extra reward to incentivize them. Half the fun is doing difficult content which doesn't result in a grindfest to obtain the best mods/items.

Agreed. Honestly, except a for select few folks this is not something anyone wants.

29 minutes ago, (NSW)Neeto said:

Simply increasing enemy health and damage isn't a good way to do this, it's just lazy when that's the only way to make the game difficult.

Which why I've been pushing for a complete enemy revamp. Complete with enemies having hard counters to prevent the current issue this game has in the late game. Which is often Meta builds that rely on ability spam, slash damage spam, & etc.

But enemies using strong weapons, Hek, Plasmor, Tigris, & etc.

Couple that with abilities that force active gameplay, dodging, blocking, wall running/clinging, gliding, etc.

The result is a game that has enemies that grow in challenge as the player progresses & enemy level increases.

Instead of just making them hard hitting bullet sponges they become credible threats & remain a threat throughout all of player progression.

(Hell folks might even try to be stealthy for once)

33 minutes ago, (NSW)Neeto said:

Maybe this isn't the right location in the game to have difficult content, but end game content should be somewhat difficult or at least offer a ramp up in difficulty to accommodate those seeking a challenge.

And this is what many folks are trying to say. Venus isn't the best place.

I personally still feel that Fortuna should have been on Neptune or Pluto...but I also see why DE chose a starter planet.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

6 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

All these Threads came up because there have been people that liked the Gameplay in Fortuna pre-hotfix 24.0.4. And then it got changed.

LOL! No. 

A quick glance at the forums will show that people are have been griping about how they want endgame for much, much longer. This is conversation really isn't not new and actually brings nothing new to the table. 

Like I've said before, the only consensus that exists on endgame is that we don't have it. There's absolutely no consensus I've seen for who counts as an endgame player. Even less for what would be "enjoyable endgame content". And from what I have seen, every single time they add something catering to that group, people complain after a week because someone figured out how to cheese it and everyone started doing that and killed the enjoyment for themselves. 

 

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

And there is also a consensus about the lack of challenging content - when you say "Dont use certain guns, mods and frames to have a challenge" you simply acknowledge that the game doesnt provide any sort of challenge on its own unless the players themselves create that challenge. Even if you dont agree that Warframe should provide some sort of challenge, you acknowledge the lack of challenging content.

Again: LOL. No. 

The fact that so many people seem afraid to do the content without a relatively narrow band of options, suggests that the content is actually quite challenging, but a few challenged people, prefer to always use the option to make it easier on themselves. 

Then they show up on the forum and think that others should be expected to play along with their power fantasy and not point out that they will have a pretty interesting time if they just changed their gear. 

Unfortunately for them that doesn't always happen, so they then make noise about how hard they worked to get that gear, and how they're free to choose to use it if they want and go right back to grumbling about a lack of challenging content, because to do otherwise would mean breaking down the power fantasy they've built for themselves. 

[rune_me]

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Unfortunately for them that doesn't always happen, so they then make noise about how hard they worked to get that gear, and how they're free to choose to use it if they want and go right back to grumbling about a lack of challenging content, because to do otherwise would mean breaking down the power fantasy they've built for themselves. 

So what would be the point of getting gear and spend hours grinding for it, if you aren't going to use it? And since getting better gear and spending those hours grinding for it, is pretty much the only thing there is to do in the game, what would be the point of playing it?

Again, asking people to not use their gear, is the equivalent of asking them to not play the game. Why stop at asking them to not use their mods and formas? You could also play the game without using the spacebar. Or only using W and A for movement, but not S and D. That would surely be more of a challenge, yes? Let's see you get through a sortie without using any of your weapons OR abilities. Why aren't we suggesting that people should do that if they want a real challenge? Hell, that would make the game practically impossible to play, how fun would that be then?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

18 minutes ago, rune_me said:

So what would be the point of getting gear and spend hours grinding for it, if you aren't going to use it? And since getting better gear and spending those hours grinding for it, is pretty much the only thing there is to do in the game, what would be the point of playing it?

Again, asking people to not use their gear, is the equivalent of asking them to not play the game. Why stop at asking them to not use their mods and formas? You could also play the game without using the spacebar. Or only using W and A for movement, but not S and D. That would surely be more of a challenge, yes? Let's see you get through a sortie without using any of your weapons OR abilities. Why aren't we suggesting that people should do that if they want a real challenge? Hell, that would make the game practically impossible to play, how fun would that be then?

If only you had also gotten dozens of other weapons and or frames that you had to grind for... Wait a minute... You did! You did grind out dozens of other items! 

So uh.... Yeah your argument is transparently disingenuous. You take the gear that allows you to cheese the missions, because it allows you to cheese the missions. 

You could do missions without the meta gear. That would make them more challenging for you. But if you did, then you may have to actually hone your skills, in order to play with the same level as ease. 

 

Right now most of this boils down to some people only playing on the equivalent of easy mode and complaining about how easy it all is and demanding new content. When anyone suggests that they try to change, they are insisting that they "worked hard" to get to play on easy mode. 

 

As for how fun it would be to play a nearly impossible game mode, that's a great question. Why don't you ask the 90%+ of players who don't count as endgame? 

[JDxBarracka]

Yeah i kinda agree with a spawn rate.

I just shoot everything with mesa then wait till the next spawn. I get bored after 10 mins and decide to leave.

[rune_me]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So uh.... Yeah your argument is transparently disingenuous. You take the gear that allows you to cheese the missions, because it allows you to cheese the missions. 

I bring pretty much the same gear and frame for every single mission, because I am too lazy to swap. I don't even change my elemental damage depending on the enemy type. The only exception for this is hunting eidolons (because other players gets mad at you if you if you don't show up prepeared) and ESO (because I always solo it so you kind of have to bring a nuke frame if you want to get past zone 8). I still can't say I find anything challenging anywhere in the game. The weapons and frames are almost irrelevant, it's the mods that makes the difference. And no, i absolutely did no grind for hours and hours to get Ammo Drum or a faster reload mod. I did grind for hours and hours getting Condition Overload and Maiming Strike, though.

15 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You could do missions without the meta gear. That would make them more challenging for you. But if you did, then you may have to actually hone your skills, in order to play with the same level as ease. 

Skills are irrelevant. If I removed all mods from my frame and weapon, it doesn't matter how much skill I have, I wouldn't be able to make it to zone 15 in ESO or capture a tridolon. Honing my skills are therefor pointless. You should be honing your build instead, that's what matters. And you do that by grinding for hours and hours to get the mods you need.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Right now most of this boils down to some people only playing on the equivalent of easy mode and complaining about how easy it all is and demanding new content. When anyone suggests that they try to change, they are insisting that they "worked hard" to get to play on easy mode. 

That's not how easy mode works, though. Easy mode is a setting that makes the content easier. Easy mode is not arbitrary self-imposed rules like "don't use half the keys on your keyboard". There is no easy and hard mode settings in Warframe, so we are all playing it in the same mode. I would love it if there were, though.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

As for how fun it would be to play a nearly impossible game mode, that's a great question. Why don't you ask the 90%+ of players who don't count as endgame? 

This game was never difficult. In all the time I have played Warframe, I'm pretty sure I have never run out of revives in a mission. Look at your own success vs fail rate of missions, and I'll bet you have almost no fails, and most of the ones you have is just because you quit the mission. The game is easy whether you are in endgame or not, and I'm not some leet player who is super good at shooters. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

I bring pretty much the same gear and frame for every single mission, because I am too lazy to swap. I don't even change my elemental damage depending on the enemy type. The only exception for this is hunting eidolons (because other players gets mad at you if you if you don't show up prepeared) and ESO (because I always solo it so you kind of have to bring a nuke frame if you want to get past zone 8). I still can't say I find anything challenging anywhere in the game

So you "take the gear that allows you to cheese the missions, because it allows you to cheese the missions." (Check the section you quoted.) 

6 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Skills are irrelevant.

Yes, because you only "take the gear that allows you to cheese the missions, because it allows you to cheese the missions."

8 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Easy mode is a setting that makes the content easier.

That's literally what happens when you "take the gear that allows you to cheese the missions, because it allows you to cheese the missions."

10 minutes ago, rune_me said:

This game was never difficult. In all the time I have played Warframe, I'm pretty sure I have never run out of revives in a mission

Not sure what any of that has to do with the bit you quoted, but since you're back to saying how easy it all is, let me quote what someone recently suggested:

"You could also play the game without using the spacebar. Or only using W and A for movement, but not S and D. That would surely be more of a challenge, yes? Let's see you get through a sortie without using any of your weapons OR abilities. Why aren't we suggesting that people should do that if they want a real challenge? Hell, that would make the game practically impossible to play, how fun would that be then?"

Since you're claiming never to have been challenged, it should be oodles of fun, even if you never grasp that there's an entire spectrum of possibilities between cheese and impossible to choose between. 

 

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So you "take the gear that allows you to cheese the missions, because it allows you to cheese the missions." (Check the section you quoted.) 

Nope, never said I did.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes, because you only "take the gear that allows you to cheese the missions, because it allows you to cheese the missions."

Again, nope, never said I did.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

That's literally what happens when you "take the gear that allows you to cheese the missions, because it allows you to cheese the missions."

No that is not what happens. What happens when you pick easy mode, is that the enemy has their stats downgraded, or their AI becomes dumber, depending on the game. Play a chess AI on high difficulty, and guess what. The AI is smarter and takes longer to calculate its moves. It does not, however, remove your queen from the game.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Since you're claiming never to have been challenged, it should be oodles of fun, even if you never grasp that there's an entire spectrum of possibilities between cheese and impossible to choose between. 

No it would not be "oodles of fun". That's what I've been saying all along. Artificially limiting yourself and not using the gear you have worked hard for, is the opposite of fun. Being able to use the gear AND still being challenged? Now that would in fact be oodles of fun.

[ThumpumGood]

On 2018-11-14 at 1:20 AM, Boondokz said:

Don't get me wrong I understand that DE wants new players to be able to experience everything and not get discouraged, but will it ever stop coming at the expense of the fun for veterans? With the release of Fortuna I thought I had finally found my new love in the form of base raiding. Enemies hit luck trucks and ramped up to high levels extremely fast. It became intense and therefor fun. How many toroids could you farm up before your team became overwhelmed and then have to sprint to the exit, mount up, and dash away. This was an amazing prospect. Instead DE nerfs the damage that the enemies do, lower the ramp speed (may be observer bias there), and decrease spawn rates. No longer is it an intense battle where you have to play smart if you want your rewards. Instead it has become yet another boring farm session. If you want the intense gameplay you have to wait an extremely long time.

 

So some might argue that Arbitration already fills this roll. To that I would have to disagree. It is the same old experience we have always had except slower as rewards take twice as long. Bring the same old set up you always would and then just wait 40 wave, 40 minutes, ext. and you will get a slight boost in challenge. It may be because the new enemies added out on Orb Vallis just havent been 100% figured out yet that supplied some of the uniqueness, but nerfing them so they are simple as any old enemy seems like veterans are being neglected. I was so happy that there was some "end game content" now it is a walk in the park, where the only reason to leave is something glitches and you are afraid of the WF Crash.

 

I hope when the spider tanks are released the challenge is restored to some extent, and it IS NOT just another operator gimmick. I still love Warframe, only I wish that everything wasn't tuned to be super casual. I expect to get some hate for this post in all honesty, but understand this is partially a knee jerk response to how much I loved base raiding compared to now.

I agree and disagree with this. I too miss the days when you fought enemies to lv 300 before you left in fear of that last death FOR THE DAY! Bring your A game or dont come. That was my intro to Warframe. "Just stay on that ledge and watch." and I did. And then I got better and was able to join in. The intensity of the game back then was absolute magic. I dont play shooters. I dont buy them, I dont download them for free and I dont spend money on upgrades. I do here. This was the only shooter I;ve ever played that held my interest and fit my style of play without all of the cheats you find in EVERY other shooter.

As you stated, you have to get new blood(and money) into the game. Why isnt there a mix? Ok... you have tier 1-5 bounties. Yay. ok... cater to the newbies. Im good with that. Now have extreme bounties. I really wouldnt care if there wasnt any better reward than the 1-5 missions. We didnt get anything better for running to lv 300 mobs. And the removal of the raids... really? Especially the nightmare ones. In those you didnt have to start out at lv 40-60. You went straight to OMG! Im gonna use up all of my deaths right here in this mission and fail. Adrenaline rush overload. Yeah... after getting it down, the mission was easier to get thru, but there was always the possibility of fail. There isnt any of that any more. 

But again, I come back to your statement about getting in new players. That level of Warframe I just described, scared off a lot of people. The deep end of the pool was only inches away from the steps into the pool. I leveled everything I got in the first few months of playing in ODD. I remember Draco being the farmall for the people who didnt have extreme players as friends. I remember calling them Draco Babies because they just leveled the frame without being forced to really think about how to use it. And it turned off a lot of players. Clans were more selective and wanted the extreme players. Turned away a lot of new players. Even if they gave the newbies a chance, if they werent catching on fast enough, they were punted down the road to *the Unicorn clans*.

And as a former business owner, I understand the direction DE went. Dont like it not including the extreme players, but I understand it. So there's my agree and disagree.

And my solution still stands with having an extreme option for the same reward tables just like it was when we were doing lv 300 mobs. Bring back the challenge.

And if the reward is the same, then why not? Less extreme players still have access to the items. This is what was so awesome about warframe was that you had high end and low end players able to access the same items at their own challenge level.

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by ThumpumGood
typos

[Xepthrichros]

Even new players get bored after 3-6 months, after getting the strong weapons or frames. They realize there's nothing much difficult to pit their strong frames and weapons up against... All they can do is use the strong stuff to cheese the RNG farming, but besides that, no challenging + rewarding content to do.

And I emphasize challenging AND rewarding content. The reward must scale with the challenge, so that people feel that the time is well-spent. Or else you create a new dead mode.

[DreisterDino]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb rune_me:

Nope, never said I did.

Again, nope, never said I did.

No that is not what happens. What happens when you pick easy mode, is that the enemy has their stats downgraded, or their AI becomes dumber, depending on the game. Play a chess AI on high difficulty, and guess what. The AI is smarter and takes longer to calculate its moves. It does not, however, remove your queen from the game.

No it would not be "oodles of fun". That's what I've been saying all along. Artificially limiting yourself and not using the gear you have worked hard for, is the opposite of fun. Being able to use the gear AND still being challenged? Now that would in fact be oodles of fun.

No point in arguing, guzman knows better. He simply knows that we are all cheesing all the time with standard-meta builds and nuke frames.

When you say "i dont even swap elementals depending on enemytype" what he reads is "i use meta elemental combo each time".

It doesnt matter that what you are doing is the opposite of cheesing and meta-play if you dont use the best elemental combos possible.

 

I also never played huge range meta-melee weapons with slidecrit rivens like atterax and scoliac because i dont enjoy that.

I dont run Arca-Plasmor all day to cheese through content. I play all kinds of weapons.

I even said that i do Sorties with completly randomized Loadouts for 1 or 2 months now with my clanmates (also randomize ofc) and still, we only failed a Spy every now and then. Still, guzman will insist on the "fact" that we are all meta-cheesers when we complain about the lack of challenge.

 

It doesnt matter what we say, in the eyes of those guys we remain the "arrogant, selfish, meta-cheese-elitists that dont care about the game or new players, that only want shiny rewards so that the unworthy noobplayers can see how awesome we are while we refuse to see the "truth" that the game is challenging if we would allow it to be challenging".

 

 

 

I cant even understand why people feel the need to fight so hard against some content that is a little more challenging, this could also be a goal for new players to get to a point where they are able to do that content. I just saw a Video yesterday from a Computer-magazine about the switch-version of Warframe, and there have been people in the comment section that asked if this game involves skill of some sort because they dont enjoy mindless slaying. Yes, even new players or players that havent even played the game yet want to know if all the grind has a purpose, or if "its just there" as some sort of occupational therapy.

Edited November 25, 2018 by DreisterDino

[KennBone]

perfect example are the most mmorpg,, where low lvl/new players cant acces to " some high dungeon or cant cracf weapon bcs of low lvl that motivate to lvl.. we just need some MR prerequisite to enter some mision ( new ones if posible with enemies lvl 100 at start its all what we need + rewards accord to that )

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

13 hours ago, rune_me said:

 Nope, never said I did.

Except that's what you did explain. You take the same gear and don't switch it up, because the gear that you have is OP enough to deal with all enemies regardless of what elemental weaknesses they have. 

That means that you literally just explained that you have generalist build with which every enemy you face is so far below your damage levels that you are just cheesing the missions. If there's no significant level of challenge for you because of the choices you actively choose to make then you are playing on easy mode, whether you like to admit that to yourself or not. 

The ennui you face is literally of your own making. 

What people have suggested is that you switch things up, so that you do have some challenge.

The standard response seems to be "I shouldn't have to depower myself, for a challenge or not use my standard gear". Except for the fact that in this game we have both of those as central features certain mission types: when the Zanuka Hunter has captured you, you lose all access to abilities and weapons; and in sorties you can be restricted to a particular weapon type, so your beloved memestrike won't do you much good when you're trying to figure out how to use it in "sniper only". 

So this whole thing:

13 hours ago, rune_me said:

No it would not be "oodles of fun". That's what I've been saying all along. Artificially limiting yourself and not using the gear you have worked hard for, is the opposite of fun. 

Yeah, not really true. But do keep trying to deny those aspects of the game already exist. 

 

3 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

When you say "i dont even swap elementals depending on enemytype" what he reads is "i use meta elemental combo each time".

It doesnt matter that what you are doing is the opposite of cheesing and meta-play if you dont use the best elemental combos possible.

Nice try, but no. I do however read it as: my gear is already so OP that I have no need to customise my damage types to the specific enemies I will be facing, because I'm already one shotting just about everything I encounter, up to and including Eidolons. 

When you have enemies whose gimmick is to build a resistance to a particular type of damage, it doesn't matter, because one shot and they're dead. 

Same when your ability is to rapidly kill every living enemy and spread to nearby enemies while possibly also acting as an enormous source of health for any player in range. Same when your abilities freeze/burn/rift/massacre such a large area, that you just bought yourself time to finish that phone call, or boosting yourself up to functional invulnerability so that you can choose to shrug off most incoming damage before having to do anything about it. 

Yeah those are things that you actively chose, in order to play into your power fantasy. And the fact that you are already so overwhelming powerful that an additional fifteenth of a second of killing time no longer matter, is effectively saying that you found a generalist meta build that is powerful enough to allow you to ignore the elemental resistances of most enemies. 

 

Try shedding some of your power fantasy and seeing if it makes a difference. 

[rune_me]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Except that's what you did explain. You take the same gear and don't switch it up, because the gear that you have is OP enough to deal with all enemies regardless of what elemental weaknesses they have. 

No, that is not what I "did explain". You should try and read a post before replying to it. I take the same gear and don't switch it up because I'm lazy, not because it's OP or the best (it's not the best).

30 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

That means that you literally just explained that you have generalist build with which every enemy you face is so far below your damage levels that you are just cheesing the missions. If there's no significant level of challenge for you because of the choices you actively choose to make then you are playing on easy mode, whether you like to admit that to yourself or not. 

Except I didn't explain that, neither figuratively, nor "literally". You just didn't bother reading what you decided to reply to, and instead just replied to an imaginary post that only exist in your own fantasy world.

32 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

What people have suggested is that you switch things up, so that you do have some challenge.

"People" haven't suggested that. Only one. That's you. And what "people" have replied is, that switching things up won't in fact make the game more challenging, because it won't change the content that you face. That lvl 80 grineer heavy gunner will still be a lvl 80 grineer heavy gunner. What mods I have doesn't change that. "People" are asking for different content. 

35 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The standard response seems to be "I shouldn't have to depower myself, for a challenge or not use my standard gear". Except for the fact that in this game we have both of those as central features certain mission types: when the Zanuka Hunter has captured you, you lose all access to abilities and weapons; and in sorties you can be restricted to a particular weapon type, so your beloved memestrike won't do you much good when you're trying to figure out how to use it in "sniper only". 

I never used maiming strike. Again, you are replying to imaginary posts. But nice try.

And no restriction in sortie ever made the mission more difficult or challenging. If this is all you are suggesting, then it is not a solution.

And I have never been captured by Zanuka. Didn't know that was even possible.

37 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yeah, not really true. But do keep trying to deny those aspects of the game already exist. 

Yeah no, it is actually true.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

This thread is still kicking huh?

Honestly, I think DE needs to do an "In-Game" poll like they did when PoE launched.

That way the TRUE playerbase can give DE the feedback they desire & deserve.

This is better than limiting it to the forums, Reddit, & the mindless sheep of [insert streamer/youtuber here].

That way the community truly can speak for itself. Period.

Then DE on a Devstream can reveal the results just like they did with PoE feedback. Then all this debate can cease & the forums can (temporarily) cease being a battle between who screams the loudest.

At this point the thread is just going in circles now.

[AtsiaZ]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

This thread is still kicking huh?

Honestly, I think DE needs to do an "In-Game" poll like they did when PoE launched.

That way the TRUE playerbase can give DE the feedback they desire & deserve.

This is better than limiting it to the forums, Reddit, & the mindless sheep of [insert streamer/youtuber here].

That way the community truly can speak for itself. Period.

Then DE on a Devstream can reveal the results just like they did with PoE feedback. Then all this debate can cease & the forums can (temporarily) cease being a battle between who screams the loudest.

At this point the thread is just going in circles now.

I'm don't know who you're trying to make out as the "true" player base (sounds really pretentious) but they'll likely see the exact same thing we all see, people do want harder content but no one can agree on what they want.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, rune_me said:

People" haven't suggested that. Only one. That's you.

You're on a thread that's got quite a lot of replies. Maybe you didn't bother to read most of them. Maybe you did and forgot. Maybe you chose to ignore any that didn't comply with the power fantasy some endgame players think that they deserve to not be called out on. But since I've been calling you out, I might as well give you a link to the first page of the thread where someone who I have reason to believe is not me, wrote "You want a challange? This game has soooo many game modes where you can have or create a challenge.There is a saying in our country. Help yourself, and only than, god will help you out too. (I'm not religious but it's a good one)" In case that wasn't a clear instruction, the very next post, also by someone who isn't me, wrote "

Here are 3 easy options that will help you add some challenge Fortuna (without making this content inaccessible to people who just reach the planet):Take a low armor frame, get 4 stars alert and go down into an enemy base (keep any weapons you like).Deal with quick CC chains, Nullifiers and impossible to avoid (at small closed spaces) accuracy.Mod your main weapon up to 30 energy consumption (if your main mods are forma'ed, do it up to 20). It is close to impossible to kill some of the kill top tier bounty enemies (not even the toughest ones) with most weapons without a potato (in some cases forma) installed. They regenerated shields faster than weapons deal damage. Do not use AoE nukes (both weapons and abilities). Even if you kill enemies instantly, if you kill them 1 at a time, it gets hard (especially if you're trying to farm Toroids).If you choose to play easiest builds, please don't cry about lack of challenge."

 

So.... Maybe you should try reading instead of just replying? I'm clearly not the only person suggesting that you can have as much or as little challenge as you like. This means that if you aren't seeing any challenge, then you are at least partially responsible; you have no challenge because you don't want it.

The resistance to those suggestions, hints at a deep seated fear of losing hold on the fantasy some endgame players have built. That view is strengthened by claims by some that skill is not a factor in success against high level enemies. 

 

2 hours ago, rune_me said:

I never used maiming strike. Again, you are replying to imaginary posts. But nice try.

Gee I wonder who brought up how hard they had to grind to get their memestrike? 

17 hours ago, rune_me said:

I did grind for hours and hours getting Condition Overload and Maiming Strike, though

Ohhhhh.. It was you. 🙄  What a surprise. Wait "surprise" isn't the word for that.