Why Do People Need An Opt Out For Stalker Mode?

[Sziklamester]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This is what I'm saying. When it comes to asking for a challenge, the forum doesn't know what it wants at all. 

I still fail to see how player stalker still be THAT much different from a.i. stalker besides being a bit more cognisant. It'll actually make the stalker challenging. It's "forced" PvP for like a minute or two, not much different than a "forced" stalker encounter. 

People are just afraid to actually have stalker kick their butts every now and then. 

I don't think DE wants people farming stalker easily, so I don't think you'll be attacked soon after getting a mark. I don't see why the rate of encounters would increase. 

most complaining could've encountered a player stalker and wouldn't have even noticed.

Yeah and in this game absolutely there is nothing what challenge us except the low gear on higher content or bulletsponges. This is just a little different thing because the AI stalker is easily farmable and with a thinking being controlled the stalker the fun and the challenge level goes up for several minutes depend on how much tactical and camping option the player stalker can have. The majority of playerbase here just want to play on a comfortable position when they can kick everything out and farm boring bosses then burn out and cry about challenge but when an actual challenge could be implemented then everyone cry how trash and forceful it is.

I know the cry about operators and the helminth but those things differently force the players. The devs are limited on what they can add because they failed in the beginning to set in stone what their game want to be. This is a hybrid mindless horde shooter with some story behind and some minor challenges but the ultra challenge fans want a lot more the casuals want nothing and I am in somewhere the mid way where some challenges needs but reasonably not mindlessly spawn bulletsponges whom one shot you.

This is the hardest part on this game to balance around something which called balanced but in few secs later it is unbalanced. That is why any normal game have pve and pvp modes because noone can expect a high and tactical AI which is challenging but not hardcorly because then peoples cry. The humans can have advantages and disadvantages and the best part they can think (hopefully) so they can make challenges to the others. There is nothing shame about lose a match against others but of course there are peoples with win mentality and they want to achieve that no matter pve or pvp content it is.

I am also win mentality person so I am trying to avoid mobas and other games because often can piss me but in warframe I can only bash myself if I fail something and rarely got teams full of noobs or peoples whom totally arses. I like the duels also in this game with low geared stuff with equal options and I does not be angry if I lose a duel, just respect the other because he / she was better. Basically nothing happens in the online world just some pixels change positions so I don't know why peoples make it this thing bigger than it is.

If they force a game mode what not like is okay you can skip it just like me the operators but other than that you can enjoy or adopt if you feel you can or leave if you feel your fun is totally spoiled.

And you are right with that sentence when you said the community does not know what it wants. This is true in most communities and devs because honestly the DE does not know aswell what they want and the reason is the many project what they announced but then shelved or make half baked. This is not a singleplayer game where you can change the difficulity and pleases everyone it is simply a horde shooter and it should not be much better but it could adopt a lot of aspects by the time.

[EmberStar]

3 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

My opinion is that stalker mode should take place in some kind of new location maybe locked by some quest or something. Where players would farm things related with this mode and face each other. So there you would find only players interested in pvp+pve content. That is MY idea that I want to "sell". Not forcing anyone to pvp.

So... exactly like Lunaro and Conclave then.  The two modes that are basically dead because NEARLY NO ONE PLAYS THEM.  If Stalker mode is limited to "stalker hunting grounds nodes," people will just ignore those nodes.  It's back to the same problem as adding the ability to opt out - the only teams going to Stalker nodes would be newbies who don't know what they're getting into, and pre-formed F* the Stalker squads who are there to farm the Stalker for spare parts.

[BornWithTeeth]

9 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I can only guess that a couple of the devs are PVP fans like the ones that keep popping up in this thread, and think that if they just MAKE people try it then they'll realize they secretly love it and just didn't know it.

Like this?

5 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

And you are right with that sentence when you said the community does not know what it wants.  

 

[Hypernaut1]

37 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

@Hypernaut1

 

Why is “I don’t like PvP,” not an acceptable answer to you?

i mean fine, if thats what you want to stick with. i was just hoping to see if someone articulate WHY they would hate a brief PvP encounter. 

so then my answer can simply be i like PvP encounters in my PvE game. Its a stand still. DE decides in the end. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Sean]

Easiest solution to all of this:
Make it a new game mode for Conclave that is basically just taking the 4 v 1 modes that were popular a few years ago.

Maybe this would even breathe new life into Conclave and DE then doesn't make the moronic decision to force PvP into PvE.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Sean
...

[EmberStar]

6 hours ago, Corvid said:

What, not even solo?

If you want, I could run those missions with you. I'm extremely careful when it comes to friendly fire, and I take care not to use AOE abilities when allied irradiation is a possibility (and in the event that a mishap occurs, I use Vazarin, so getting downed is a non-issue).

No, generally not even solo.  Not unless the Radiation Hazard mission is also a normal Spy mission.  (I deeply hate the Lua Spy and Rescue missions, because they're terrible.)  Honestly I generally ignore Sorties.  The only things worth having are Rivens and the big blobs of Endo, and neither are worth putting up with the clunky, broken, arbitrary design of Sorties.  Special mention to Sortie variations of Raptor and Infested Alad V for how terrible they are.

[rand0mname]

Oh so many questions after listening to Steve interview.

How Tenno arsenal can be balanced against a preset arsenal of the Stalker? What about Operators? Pets? Sentinels? My Helios one shots lvl 80 Grineer mooks. What about mods like Rolling Guard?

What about griefing? Don't tell me that certain players will not check a profile of their target or will not form groups to set up an easy kill. Don't tell me that targets will not abort the mission or start doing certain things to turn the duel into lag-fest.

What about lore? What, our space kid will have a weird dream about Stalker and will accidentally sneak peek/transfer into his head? If next morning there will be no tsundere letter about unwelcome invasions from Stalker I am going to be disappointed.

What, the mode that 95% of players may turn off (by Steve own estimate no less) can be saved by making it mandatory? You can lead a horse to a water, but you can not force it to drink. And, as last year Tactical PvP alert shown, bribery with shiny rewards do not work very well. If it were working we would have more alerts, no?

What about exploits? Steve himself talks about DE not being able to find everything due to the game size. Some of exploits do become known only thanks to players reporting them!

I imagine first weeks of Stalker mode will be interesting for everyone. In a way, I admire DE ambition and desire to push the limits. Let's see if it will be next Lunaro, Eidolon hunts or Operators.

[SneakyErvin]

33 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

But you guys keep attacking me for "forcing others to pvp and stomp poor pve onlys" well... i have never wanted that nor did i ever state that in this thread. So I state facts. Yes Scotts word means more than mine but by that logic you not wanting stalker mode will get it anyways so all your time in this topic has gone moot... because his word means more than YOURS too.

My opinion is that stalker mode should take place in some kind of new location maybe locked by some quest or something. Where players would farm things related with this mode and face each other. So there you would find only players interested in pvp+pve content. That is MY idea that I want to "sell". Not forcing anyone to pvp.

Then why do state the following in your OP?

Quote

-in last interview it was stated by DE that it will NOT be opt in/out so players can just turn "player stalkers" off, i agree with that but still new players and maybe solo should be impossible to invade,

So you agree that it should be forced and not a thing to opt in and out off.

The whole idea of adding specific rewards also kinda kills the idea people wanted from the beginning, which was simply taking control of Stalker at times when he spawns in some game. Sure if they add a specific game mode with rewards only usable in that I see no real issue with it, except it being another PvP mode getting played by a handfull of people. The idea to have it forced simply comes from the knowledge DE possess currently, that an opt-in/out mode would see barely any activity in it.

So if they need to force it on people in order to get attendance to justify the resources spent on it maybe they should reconsider not wasting resources on PvP yet again.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

il y a 2 minutes, Hypernaut1 a dit :

i mean fine, if thats what you want to stick with. i was just hoping to see if someone articulate WHY they would hate a brief PvP encounter. 

so then my answer can simply be i like PvP encounters in my PvE game. Its a stand still. DE decides in the end. 

The way I see it, the game at its full fledged core is a PvE horde game.

You go in, expect to fight telegraphed AI in hordes and if you die that's just "okay lol I totally ran into that one, it was so obvious, lets go again!"
But when you give the control to a player, a player who's been trained to cheese and Maximize everything he does in his entire warframe play-time, then you've got a small amounts of problems that arise.

First one being that I didn't sign up to get killed in PvP, I'm here for the AI that I can kill over and over again for my own stimulation and satisfaction.
If I wanted to fight other players, I'd check in into conclave or I'd logout of warframe and go play literally any other game in the market, but I don't.

I don't want to suddenly be raided by people who logged into the mode on purpose in order to grief me.
To me they're the same people that try to get radiated on purpose to kill the entire team, and there's nothing more frustrating than someone who enters my casual, shoot and relax, server in order to ruin my day over and over again just because I've been killing few too many bosses lately or because my teammates have the worst stalker RNG of all time.
So if it is forced, it's absolutely a disgusting move to do.

It has nothing to do with how brief or how easy it would be to one-shot the stalker player.
It simply goes against what I signed up for when I entered a PvE game.
_______
And then there's the obvious problem of balance, why would DE add a mode where either team is going to die in one hit?
There's "brief" and then there's literally playing 1% of the Loading Screen time.
So in that fashion, the casual EZ-Farm stalker is most likely going to turn into a Player controlled boss just so it can rival with a 4-team player hunting ground.

Would it be cool?
Hell yeah, if this wasn't pre-built into my PvE missions and if it was actually balanced then I'd hop in, but so far it's the complete opposite of that, it's so far down the opposite side that it wouldn't even be called "stalker mode" at the end of the day.
So why bother? The main point of Stalker mode is riddled full of hole and problems that'd probably make the game mode something entirely different once "fixed"

[SneakyErvin]

24 minutes ago, Sean said:

Easiest solution to all of this:
Make it a new game mode for Conclave that is basically just taking the 4 v 1 modes that were popular a few years ago.

Maybe this would even breathe new life into Conclave and DE then doesn't make the moronic decision to force PvP into PvE.

You dont think trying to add PvP modes 3 times already is enough to see that it doesnt attract people no matter what? Do they really need to add a 4th version just to make sure it is something to avoid in the future?

Since Stalker mode is obviously the Evolved, Dead by Daylight, Friday the 13th, Dying Light inspired thing, what will be next? Warframe Clem Royale with Cheese?

[EmberStar]

23 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i mean fine, if thats what you want to stick with. i was just hoping to see if someone articulate WHY they would hate a brief PvP encounter.

Because it is PVP.  Someone who wants to attack my character would, by definition, gain some level of enjoyment from fighting me.  I do NOT enjoy being attacked, experiencing conflict with another player, or competitive gameplay in general.  Therefore, a PVP encounter will increase their enjoyment by *decreasing* mine.  There is no situation or circumstance where I will enjoy PVP.  And my experience has been that people generally only attempt to engage random strangers if they know their own victory is nearly certain. 

A notable example from when I still played WoW:  I was in the Tauren starting area with my (at the time) nearly max level Warlock.  It's a very low level zone, since quests and enemies stop giving XP at about level 10.  And a level 40 character was running around challenging new characters to duels.  Whenever one accepted he would kill them instantly, then durr hurr hurr at how awesome he was.  I had picked armor to wear because it looked nice, so didn't have the Stupidly Huge Shoulder Pads that normally mark a high level character.  And he had challenged me twice already.  When he did it again I hit Accept, then the only macro I ever made which summoned the Extremely Aggressive Demon pet, which destroyed him instantly.  (A 20 level difference meant that he was trying to kill the battleship Yamato with a butter knife.)

Strangely, he was Very Angry at this, even though it was *exactly* what he had been doing to everyone else for at least the past hour.  For myself, I finished turning in the Hyena eyeballs or whatever it was for the story quest, then logged out.  Because even *that* PVP interaction made me feel ill, and destroyed any interest in playing the game again for several days.

I.  Do.  Not.  Like.  Player.  Versus.  Player.

[Sziklamester]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

The way I see it, the game at its full fledged core is a PvE horde game.

You go in, expect to fight telegraphed AI in hordes and if you die that's just "okay lol I totally ran into that one, it was so obvious, lets go again!"
But when you give the control to a player, a player who's been trained to cheese and Maximize everything he does in his entire warframe play-time, then you've got a small amounts of problems that arise.

First one being that I didn't sign up to get killed in PvP, I'm here for the AI that I can kill over and over again for my own stimulation and satisfaction.
If I wanted to fight other players, I'd check in into conclave or I'd logout of warframe and go play literally any other game in the market, but I don't.

I don't want to suddenly be raided by people who logged into the mode on purpose in order to grief me.
To me they're the same people that try to get radiated on purpose to kill the entire team, and there's nothing more frustrating than someone who enters my casual, shoot and relax, server in order to ruin my day over and over again just because I've been killing few too many bosses lately or because my teammates have the worst stalker RNG of all time.
So if it is forced, it's absolutely a disgusting move to do.

It has nothing to do with how brief or how easy it would be to one-shot the stalker player.
It simply goes against what I signed up for when I entered a PvE game.
_______
And then there's the obvious problem of balance, why would DE add a mode where either team is going to die in one hit?
There's "brief" and then there's literally playing 1% of the Loading Screen time.
So in that fashion, the casual EZ-Farm stalker is most likely going to turn into a Player controlled boss just so it can rival with a 4-team player hunting ground.

Would it be cool?
Hell yeah, if this wasn't pre-built into my PvE missions and if it was actually balanced then I'd hop in, but so far it's the complete opposite of that, it's so far down the opposite side that it wouldn't even be called "stalker mode" at the end of the day.
So why bother? The main point of Stalker mode is riddled full of hole and problems that'd probably make the game mode something entirely different once "fixed"

I agree with you too but basically the whole game is force because the progresses are linked with maps, challenges or specific quests. Like many not like the AW because clunky and very alien to the base game and the list can goes but they added these to certain choke points so you need to do everything if you want progress.

Just like they added the helminth to annoy peoples, no one wanted and many times suggested the antidote to it but they does not listened. That was a disgusting move also just like how pets handled with their "food consumption". In a game like this noone want real simulation or tamagochi if we wish to do that there is emulators for tamagochi or play sims etc..

Player controlled stalker is the less hassle in this option and yet they need to figure out how to balance it to be less annoying and how become normal challenges. True many peoples does not want challenges because they enjoy beign god like but others maybe will like it. DE always have one good and one bad decision at the time we will see how this will happen. The player stalker idea is in the game since they introduced the stalker and many peoples wanted to play as him or own him like any other warframe.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Cotton Tail said:

Secondly, as it stands (from what little we know) it seems very one-sided. The Stalker get's their fun invading a mission, but what's in it for the PvE players? Good PvP should give both sides of the equation an enjoyable experience; this doesn't the way it currently stands.

This is the very thing I have asked multiple times in this very topic, and no one has offered and answer or even a suggestion.  It's like they're scared to answer it.  I will try asking again as maybe they missed it.

What benefit do I, solo, and/or other PvE players get for player Stalkers invading my/our missions?  If some one can give me a good response to that, then I might just change my stance on this.  

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

il y a 6 minutes, Sziklamester a dit :

I agree with you too but basically the whole game is force because the progresses are linked with maps, challenges or specific quests.

I'll stop your right there, considering the answer to that very thing is straight above.

I signed up for PvE content. I'm not feeling forced, there's things I dislike more than others, but in that fashion the game is still making me play PvE.
If I didn't want to play the game because it got worst, I'd go away.

And that's the nuance you're probably missing here.
If you force PvP into it, I'm gone, it's not longer what I was offered.
I downloaded it because it offered me a free to play, power crazy, third person, AI horde fighting game, not something else.
All of the things you suggested did not change that very fact. Archwing, helminth, operator. Everything's still PvE even if annoying.

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[Sziklamester]

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You dont think trying to add PvP modes 3 times already is enough to see that it doesnt attract people no matter what? Do they really need to add a 4th version just to make sure it is something to avoid in the future?

Since Stalker mode is obviously the Evolved, Dead by Daylight, Friday the 13th, Dying Light inspired thing, what will be next? Warframe Clem Royale with Cheese?

Actually 5 th version because the frame fighters also a pvp minigame mode. DE adding pvp mode because they know they won't be able to make a game which can challenge us and keep us long time so they are trying to do a pvp mode which actually fun to play.

The first major reason why I don't play conclave is the crappy host system because they does not bother to rent servers. If they do then we can enjoy the game mode more better because the pvp is really dependant on how laggy the game is. They actually do balances in the pvp part and a lot of things works differently in pvp than work in pve but the major issue is the lag and the few pvp players whom experienced enough and kick ass newcomers whom does not want to los their ego.

[Dangerbone]

So this is just being a Darkwraith in Warframe? I don't see an issue with it, asymmetric PvP can be fun if done right. The invader has the advantage of being an enemy mob with the potential for level scaling while the invaded gets a posse and potentially maxed out gear. Unlike Dark Souls PvP, an invaded player will never be matched with a min-max twink build but always a Stalker variant.

Maybe I'm a masochist, but I enjoyed the feeling of tension when exploring a new area in human form in Dark Souls. The risk of invasion made the relief of finding a bonfire all the sweeter. Warframe and tension don't really go together outside of Sortie spy and Arbitrations, but I really don't think the occasional invasion interruption would be anything more than just annoying for some players.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Dangerbone

[Sziklamester]

1 minute ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

I'll stop your right there, considering the answer to that very thing is straight above.

I signed up for PvE content. I'm not feeling forced, there's things I dislike more than others, but in that fashion the game is still making me play PvE.
If I didn't want to play the game because it got worst, I'd go away.

And that's the nuance you're probably missing here.
If you force PvP into it, I'm gone, it's not longer what I was offered.
I downloaded it because it offered me a free to play, power crazy, third person, AI horde fighting game, not something else.

So you mean it is force you to actual beat a player stalker and not bother you to kill a silly AI stalker for easy loot?

This is only a small and rare option and they can also make it monitorized so there should not be a 10 stalker raid in a row because some player actually hates you and want to spoil your game.

I am signed here to do both but currently I can do pve only because they cannot make a proper hosting.

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, Sziklamester said:

I am signed here to do both but currently I can do pve only because they cannot make a proper hosting.

So, just cause you're okay with it, we should also be? Really?

Nah mate, if we do not agree to any competitive engagement to other players, but it still happens, then it is forced on us. We do not want to be forced into that environment and that's that. We agreed to co-op, we agreed to get our arses kicked by an AI stalker, we did not agree to fight another player in a stalker cosplay.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

il y a 1 minute, Sziklamester a dit :

So you mean it is force you to actual beat a player stalker and not bother you to kill a silly AI stalker for easy loot?

Yes indeed.
AI telegraphed Stalker is still PvE.
He's not bound by the balance necessary for PvP, he's also not subject to cheese manipulation and maximization of a player.

Doesn't matter if it's one raid or 20, the result is still the same.
This would result in game changing the offered product outside of its presented ranges by forcefully pushing PvP into its core features.

[DatDarkOne]

Edited because I misread previously quoted statement.  Sorry

Edited December 6, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Aramil999]

5 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is the very thing I have asked multiple times in this very topic, and no one has offered and answer or even a suggestion.  It's like they're scared to answer it.  I will try asking again as maybe they missed it.

What benefit do I, solo, and/or other PvE players get for player Stalkers invading my/our missions?  If some one can give me a good response to that, then I might just change my stance on this.  

I did suggest at least 1 option so far:

1. In special Stalker Nodes you will farm resources used normaly in game or/and special currency used to buy/craft Stalker Cosmetics or maybe stalker beacons which will allow you to invade. In such missions you will get invaded by player stalkers who farmed said beacons.

2. If it was introduced with pure DE Scott idea (forced invasion, normal missions, normal stalker) player Stalker should drop unique items/resources/currency used to craft/buy cosmetics and maybe beacons used to invade. This way there will always be more players "farming" stalker than being stalker (as they have to farm him first to invade). Maybe add feature that you will not lose your invasion beacon/item unless you kill target? There are many solutions.

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

Have you lost you mind with this suggestion of monetizing the option to avoid being invaded by Player Stalker?  This is why almost every game being made out there is PvP based because Dev and publishers know it's a fast cash grab.  There is no other reason than this for way we have so many PvP games in the recent years of gaming history.  

You might wanna re-read that. He said monitor, not monetize.

[Sziklamester]

1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

So, just cause you're okay with it, we should also be? Really?

Nah mate, if we do not agree to any competitive engagement to other players, but it still happens, then it is forced on us. We do not want to be forced into that environment and that's that. We agreed to co-op, we agreed to get our arses kicked by an AI stalker, we did not agree to fight another player in a stalker cosplay.

I can say the same if you are not okay with and I am then you force me to accept as a major fact We as community does not want it. I personally not bothered with it and not make a significant impact on the game play except we could get some more challenge and prove yourself you are better than your opponent. You and others who does not want you can say it is okay for you the game is pve only and I don't have a problem with that too. DE will decide if it can be implented or just scrap the idea. Without test in the reality how it works say anything is just useless. Let's see if they wish to implement it and how they will. If they mess it up then you have the right to critize it and give a feedback or if you were lucky then you maybe never will meet a player stalker.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

il y a 3 minutes, DatDarkOne a dit :

monetizing

Monitoring** is what he said.

I read it the same at first glance as well. Had to triple take that too.

[Sziklamester]

Just now, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Monitoring** is what he said.

I read it the same at first glance as well. Had to triple take that too.

Haha, np at least someone actually read it.