Time to BALANCE Warframe! (May Trigger Players)

[Aldain]

16 minutes ago, Legion-Shields said:

I think it's time for DE to make PVP the main focus of Warframe. This will make it easier to balance for both pvp and pve.

...what are you smoking and can I have some?

[MickThejaguar]

Enemies need to be rebalanced before we can start dropping nerfs on frames. The enemies we fight are complete jokes at lower levels and absurd insta-kill monsters in high levels. There isn't really any middle ground in high levels, either we're unkillable gods or we're fodder. 

[DanteYoda]

There are few great warframes and weapons and the rest are sorry to say garbage, weapons by default should all start at 25% crit and staus, warframes all should have some defensive capability like Nezha and Rhino, using anything else is suicidal.. at higher levels..

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

Enemies need to be rebalanced before we can start dropping nerfs on frames. The enemies we fight are complete jokes at lower levels and absurd insta-kill monsters in high levels. There isn't really any middle ground in high levels, either we're unkillable gods or we're fodder. 

Generally you work out what the player character is capable of before you design enemies around them.

If they rework enemies first, then rework us, then it's far more likely that something will become broken in the second step, which means more work for DE as they redesign the enemies a second time. If they rework us first, then balance the enemies around our new capabilities, then it's less work overall.

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

8 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

So long as the items can be traded, they aren't exclusive. I despise Eidolon mechanics, so have traded for arcanes I wish to obtain.

 

The main pitfall they need to avoid, is making such content the sole method of gaining reputation/materials for faction gear.

So players can put a big price tag on them?  Not the best thing to do. 

[spyroxion]

To be honest, I didn't invest couple of hundred of hours of struggle, of being weak, being killed over and over, of not understanding wth is going on and why some players just delete everything while I just scratch the back of mobs to reach a point where I am a godlike killing machine (and yet with a lot of space for improvement and things to farm).

You don't balance frames simply on how they perform on end-end game boss or 2 bosses, there is plenty of content before that, ENTIRE game content. Do you remember how you started this game? Weak, no mods, low lvl mods, bad weapons, when lvl 20-30 mobs were scary and lvl 50 were using your bones as toothpicks? Imagine you nerf frames based on end end game now, newbies will quit like no tomorrow of not being able to progress without being carried. Heck, I took my friend who just started not too long ago (mr 3 or 4) to infected defense mission lvl 20-30, after wave 10 he was just getting slaughtered if I'm not with him.

Don't forget that it takes HUNDREDS of hours to reach point of game about which you are complaining. Hundreds of hours of grind and tons of hours of learning about the game (mods, how they work, resistances, statuses etc etc etc), learning mechanics (heck, even parkour takes time to learn). You don't balance equipment around those kind of players because it will hurt everyone that is not on their tier.You should focus on making content FITTING for those players so that it wouldn't hinder people who are not at this level yet. 

Also, don't forget that forums represents minority of ENTIRE community, there are so many players just playing the game without talking in here so you need to take into consideration that as well.

Also also, Warframe is massive horde slaying with godlike powers game (at least what it became), if you change entirely how it plays it might kill the game, a lot of players likes this game for what it is, don't forget that. 

[rastaban75]

4 hours ago, Makunogo said:

are we asking for something we simply cannot get in warframe?

I think you nailed the problem. In order to have challenging combat, like many people wish for, Warframe does need to become something else. For example, a shooter with cover mechanics/tactics and a small (but supposedly) balanced number of character classes. Since we already have a number that is nearing 40 (I lost count tbh) this is practically impossible.

[Veridian]

For balanced and fun sized content, please turn your attention towards the Riot forums.

What got me into Warframe is that finally I could feel like the scary thing in the room.

I'm sorry but I'm against such changes, I've had enough of "balanced games" where I get to monitor CDs for a 10% damage buff and wait for "strategic possibilities" behind a wall/turret and of course the most important - team play, because every player of an online game wants team play, having to be reliant on somebody 100% of the time. In fact this keeps toxicity low in Warframe, because no matter how bad the current team is, most can just carry on their own.

There are plenty of games that let you feel like one of the 4-40 minions in the room "doing your part", please let me whack things in style.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Ver1dian

[initial_despacito]

im going to ask for no riven nerfie so I can turn the most useless weapon in warframe into god send simulator

[Daziri]

Game is unbalanced?

This isn't some freaking MOBA,

this is PVE-focused MMO

Why do people complain about killing in a game like Warframe? Do you want to tickle enemies? Shoot your lanka, opticor, rubico, whatever sniper/cannon resulting in 1dmg hit? Press that 4 and spam E on 6forma Excalibur/Exalted Blade isn't supposed to hardhit enemies?

 

I'm curious to see what's the reasoning behind "nerf X"?
Why do you want something nerfed? Just because it's the only thing used for specific mission? That's known as strength on the specific frame. You don't see Chroma outside of bossfights such as Eidolons/Orbs. You wanna make him invisible completely by nerfing his dmg so he won't be played at all?

If it shines in something then it shines in something. Usually each equipment whether it is a Warframe, Primary, 2ndary, Melee, Companion they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some are a bit stronger and some are a bit weaker.

 

It's funny how players back couple years ago barely complained about anything being strong.

Now you see the forums spamming about "nerf this nerf that nerf it"

and pitifully it's tiresome.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Daziri
Fixing typos.

[initial_despacito]

10 minutes ago, Daziri said:

Game is unbalanced?

This isn't some freaking MOBA,

this is PVE-focused MMO

Why do people complain about killing in a game like Warframe? Do you want to tickle enemies? Shoot your lanka, opticor, rubico, whatever sniper/cannon resulting in 1dmg hit? Press that 4 and spam E on 6forma Excalibur/Exalted Blade isn't supposed to hardhit enemies?

 

I'm curious to see what's the reasoning behind "nerf X"?
Why do you want something nerfed? Just because it's the only thing used for specific mission? That's known as strength on the specific frame. You don't see Chroma outside of bossfights such as Eidolons/Orbs. You wanna make him invisible completely by nerfing his dmg so he won't be played at all?

If it shines in something then it shines in something. Usually each equipment whether it is a Warframe, Primary, 2ndary, Melee, Companion they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some are a bit stronger and some are a bit weaker.

 

It's funny how players back couple years ago barely complained about anything being strong.

Now you see the forums spamming about "nerf this nerf that nerf it"

and pitifully it's tiresome.

well, some people would argue the enclave

 

 

Oh wait, that's basically dead on platforms like Xbox and PS4.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, rastaban75 said:

I think you nailed the problem. In order to have challenging combat, like many people wish for, Warframe does need to become something else. For example, a shooter with cover mechanics/tactics and a small (but supposedly) balanced number of character classes. Since we already have a number that is nearing 40 (I lost count tbh) this is practically impossible.

I disagree. There's more than one way to make a game challenging. And cover mechanics wouldn't be the way to go for Warframe if it was. I'd rather have what we have now than yet another cookie-cutter cover shooter. A game also doesn't have to be super tough to be satisfyingly challenging - just enough that it feels like you're actually overcoming something.

In my opinion, challenge should be achieved by encouraging players to get out and move about, fighting and dodging on the front lines, or not far from it. That's where Warframe excels in my opinion. Right now it's discouraged from two angles - scaling making weak enemies powerful and enemies not having an answer to non-interactive gameplay.

Enemies right now are weak by default - they barely put up any fight at lower levels. This means that the only way to make them powerful in Warframe's current gameplay is to ramp up their numbers with scaling. This means that enemies that before too long, a breaking point is reached where enemies become massive bullet sponges and dish out tons of damage. This discourages front-line action gameplay because doing so gets you killed in seconds - even if you're good at dodging, all it takes is a couple of bullets unless you're playing as one of the 'immortal' frames. That encourages gameplay to slow down into what is effectively a cover shooter.

This is exacerbated by the fact that staying in one place or in a place of safety and nuking the map is just as, if not more effective anyway. Why put yourself at risk? Action gameplay at that point becomes a choice at opportunity cost to power, which combined with the above, makes actually playing the game - zipping around the area, blasting enemies the least effective thing you can do.

My thoughts on this would be... well, firstly fixing scaling. That's the broken-record answer that a lot of people have pointed out before now. The second would be to add more abilities to regular tileset enemies, and tweak some of the existing ones, so that more enemies can actually put up a fight without discouraging getting front-line action. For example, of the former, more enemies capable of CC'ing the player would work, provided that they had proper charge-up on the ability and can be dodged. For the latter, adjusting Bombard rocket homing to be easier and more predictable to dodge, and removing their ground slam - making them an enemy that actively discourages hiding in cover and encourage charging into the fray. Lastly, and this is inevitably controversial, but making a handful of enemies (one or two) immune or resistant to AoE damage abilities and another to hard CC would go a long way in making these tactics unsustainable. They're first-order-optimal strategies - once they can't be maintained infinitely, players will migrate to other methods.

In short, try to bring players out of shelter, away from cover and back into action. Putting them at risk, as long its fair risk, will bring challenge naturally

[Corvid]

33 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

-Snip-

Something that might help raise the challenge level in a fair manner would be to raise the overall movement speed of enemies, and give them more mobility options (perhaps elite enemies could parkour like we do).

As Skill Up said in his review, Mobility is power, and part of the gulf between our strength and our enemies' is that we're mobile enough that we can rush any defensive line they set up with little consequence, and disengage too quickly for them to catch up.

Allowing the enemy to cover large distances quickly (the Terra MOAs' leap is a good start), perhaps coupled with an AI rework that prioritises flanking over defending a location, would at least make things a bit more interesting. Right now the AI is set to hunker down and form firing lines, which just doesn't work against us.

[FlusteredFerret]

8 hours ago, Legion-Shields said:

I think it's time for DE to make PVP the main focus of Warframe. This will make it easier to balance for both pvp and pve.

Thank god that will never happen.

 

DE aren't about to put 1% of the player base above the ones that actually keep the game going. Not unless they have a sudden collective attack of insanity anyway...

 

Warframe was never meant to be PvP and no amount of crying from ex-Conclavers is going to change that.

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[csaszar]

You like it or not the problem is in the so called boss fights itself.

Remove the eidalon and the spiders and replace them with lots of "normal" enemies. In the long run it would show how broken chroma is. WF is not a game about bossfights. Any single encounter could and would trigger the inbalances the OP mentioned.

[initial_despacito]

1 minute ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Thank god that will never happen.

 

DE aren't about to put 1% of the player base above the ones that actually keep the game going.

 

conclave? Whats that? Some sort of cool "slang" for useless video game mode?

[Radagosh]

I didn't read your wall of text, mainly due to the fact that I agree with the idea of rebalancing everything to give players challenge. However, as things stand that would take way too much time and result in another content draught like 2018. No content for months and rebalancing that still does not change anything.

So here is my counter point. Embrace the broken system give people the chance to replay the starmap 3x and buff the lvls of enemies 50-100lvl each time. Cut half of the nodes out of the game while adding this and for #*!% sake remove credit rewards from the droptables and add some real incentives to do these bulletsponge maps (kuva, rivens, primed mods, rad axi/neo relic bundles, forma, etc)

In conclusion, while balancing the whole game would be appreciated, it is way to late for that. It is time to embrace the power creep and focus on giving players challenge through this embrace.

[FlusteredFerret]

4 hours ago, spyroxion said:

To be honest, I didn't invest couple of hundred of hours of struggle, of being weak, being killed over and over, of not understanding wth is going on and why some players just delete everything while I just scratch the back of mobs to reach a point where I am a godlike killing machine (and yet with a lot of space for improvement and things to farm).

You don't balance frames simply on how they perform on end-end game boss or 2 bosses, there is plenty of content before that, ENTIRE game content. Do you remember how you started this game? Weak, no mods, low lvl mods, bad weapons, when lvl 20-30 mobs were scary and lvl 50 were using your bones as toothpicks? Imagine you nerf frames based on end end game now, newbies will quit like no tomorrow of not being able to progress without being carried. Heck, I took my friend who just started not too long ago (mr 3 or 4) to infected defense mission lvl 20-30, after wave 10 he was just getting slaughtered if I'm not with him.

Don't forget that it takes HUNDREDS of hours to reach point of game about which you are complaining. Hundreds of hours of grind and tons of hours of learning about the game (mods, how they work, resistances, statuses etc etc etc), learning mechanics (heck, even parkour takes time to learn). You don't balance equipment around those kind of players because it will hurt everyone that is not on their tier.You should focus on making content FITTING for those players so that it wouldn't hinder people who are not at this level yet. 

Also, don't forget that forums represents minority of ENTIRE community, there are so many players just playing the game without talking in here so you need to take into consideration that as well.

Also also, Warframe is massive horde slaying with godlike powers game (at least what it became), if you change entirely how it plays it might kill the game, a lot of players likes this game for what it is, don't forget that. 

Couldn't have put it better myself. 

 

All this stuff about "balancing" and "endgame" is all from vets who have done everything they are interested in and are now bored, because their gear is so OP that nothing is a challenge any longer...

...conveniently forgetting there are plenty of newer players who still find a lot of content a struggle.

 

This is one of very few reasons I would support a totally separate PvP mode where everyone has similar gear...or at least gets to chose between limited, pre-made classes. That way they can spend as much time as they like in a genuinely challenging environment.

 

[FlusteredFerret]

13 minutes ago, Csaszar said:

You like it or not the problem is in the so called boss fights itself.

Remove the eidalon and the spiders and replace them with lots of "normal" enemies. In the long run it would show how broken chroma is. WF is not a game about bossfights. Any single encounter could and would trigger the inbalances the OP mentioned.

Which is why I think any endgame mode / content needs to be a separate event like Arbitrations or Sorties and locked behind some sort of minimum requirements.

It can't be attached to main game content that any newbie can accidentally get hooked into, or deliberately try even though they may be hopelessly out of their depth.

 

[(PSN)Fireworker77]

When you are talking about Nerfing Frames oder Weapons, please remember the Newbies or the people that can't play 24/7. If you weaken the base stats of a Frame, then maybe you have a harder time at LVL. 150 upwards but the Newbie will get slaughtered at Lvl. 50. They do not have the experience to effectively play the nerfed frames as you have.

If you have everything in this game, every mod / weapon / frame / etc. then maybe just take a break until new content arrives. Why play a game that doesn't make fun anymore?

[Volinus7]

Split Warframe into two separate games, one with balance and one without balance. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Something that might help raise the challenge level in a fair manner would be to raise the overall movement speed of enemies, and give them more mobility options (perhaps elite enemies could parkour like we do).

As Skill Up said in his review, Mobility is power, and part of the gulf between our strength and our enemies' is that we're mobile enough that we can rush any defensive line they set up with little consequence, and disengage too quickly for them to catch up.

Allowing the enemy to cover large distances quickly (the Terra MOAs' leap is a good start), perhaps coupled with an AI rework that prioritises flanking over defending a location, would at least make things a bit more interesting. Right now the AI is set to hunker down and form firing lines, which just doesn't work against us.

Ooh! Yeah, I forgot about that. Plus, it'd help differentiate factions more.

I don't think that them using Parkour like we do is a good idea (for the whole 'differentiation' thing), but offering units more mobility options would be interesting. More Grineer with jetpacks for one, especially on flanking units. I think the Grineer as a very 'military' group using firing lines might be fine, particularly if they did have flanking enemies and other ways to try and force us into those lines, but Corpus and Infested not so much.

Corpus have a lot more possibilities for movement anyway - they have teleport technology after all. Perhaps a unit that can place down a teleporter that lower-power troops (like MOA's and Crewmen), or perhaps larger Ospreys that can airlift individual troops similar to Mutalist Ospreys. Giving the Corpus more mobility and less 'disciplined' strategies would make them more different from the very military Grineer, instead of right now where they're kind of just a reskin.

Infested, then, I could see putting particular emphasis on light troops, unlike the other factions where it's the heavies that are important. Since mobility is equal between most of the Infested, heavies remain priority, but if lighter units could more easily swarm us then they'd take up more attention. One idea might be letting the lighter units walk run along walls. It's creepy, its horrifying, and it dramatically diversifies the number of routes they can take. Another thought is letting the light infested spawn from the patches of infestation that you can find in tilesets where they're present. That could lead to far more of the whole 'horde' being felt, as opposed to right now where fighting the Infested sometimes feels like 'Chokepoint simulator 2019'.

And, yeah, having more flanking AI would be good. Even if only on a few units - Troopers currently don't feel that different from Lancers and use short-ranged weapons. so it'd be a good option for them for example. Diversity is good for game design - especially a game with as much variety in abilities as Warframe.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

20 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Split Warframe into two separate games, one with balance and one without balance. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We'd first need balance.  This game has a staggering amount of power creep.

[DrBorris]

This is the damage progression from new player to veteran of primary rifles. I'll let you a guess as to what the majority of the spike in damage is attributed to and spoiler: you never even mentioned it in the OP.

 

Edit: I don't mean to be rude, but you are extremely misguided in what makes Warframe "unbalanced".

Edited January 14, 2019 by DrBorris

[Aldain]

15 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

what the majority of the spike in damage is attributed to

I'm going to hazard a guess and assume its a combination of multishot and either Warframe abilities or POWER stacking damage mods.