-AncientWarrior- Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 So this has been coming up a lot.. and I mean about players being punished/banned/suspended because they traded with someone who had "illegal plat". Now I've been around warframe for a little while .. 4000 odd hours and have done a fair bit of trading.. luckily i havent been hit by this .. touch wood.. but what I would like DE to answer please guys/gals is .. how do we honest players tell the difference? If I trade one of my God Rivens for say 10k plat and it turns out that the person I traded with has illegal plat .. I get punished by getting the plat I traded removed and losing the riven .. correct ? What if Ive then purchased another riven or 10 from different players with that plat, do they get the same treatment .. Where the hell is that fair or even sensible?. DE you guys/gals must have a way to know what plat is real and what is fake/illegal, so why does it not get flagged straight away without innocent players getting slammed. We work hard to get Kuva .. tons of it btw, roll the riven gamble and maybe .. just maybe hit the jackpot god riven.. then we need plat so we decide to sell said riven.. how are we to know if the player we are trading with is ok or not. DE, you create the plat, rivens, market, demand etc, so surely there is a way if illegal plat turns up in the game it should be removed straight away.. or am I wrong and missing some important factor that we as players and traders dont know/understand. Ive normally traded rivens for rivens, easier to deal with but sometimes plat is required or offered .. This cant be left to us players to suffer the consequences of a system that seems .. how can I put it .. broken? When I trade for plat to buy my boosters or other rivens etc I want to know its all good and atm it just seems not to be that way. I know this has been bought up before and all I have heard is that it's on the player to deal with it.. but we cant because we dont have the full information to do so.. The trading system need to be a secure system that innocent parties dont get hurt.. I worry about trading any god rivens for plat these days just incase I get up tomorrow to find a message saying I've been suspended due to negative plat. And before anyone says you just need to ensure you have more than enough plat to cover the said trade just in case, (and thats the biggest copout ever) ,its a catch22 .. I'd really like an answer from DE to put honest players minds at rest .. not expecting one but hoping for one .. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)DakVoidcloaker Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Great points -- I've always thought this was a flawed policy for the innocent player/customer. For legal reasons (and partially because this policy is indefensible) I will be very surprised if anyone from DE answers this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Really ? This is how it works ? Punish the innocent along with the guilty ? Not Cool DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyschoGrizzlyBear Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Totally not a DE staff, this post looked lonely and I agree that "Illegal platinum" is a huge problem that DE should take a look at. But unfortunately, the illegal platinum problem is complicated and has an ugly undertone. Warning, this will not put your mind at ease if you are planning to sell a riven mod for 10K platinum or plan on trading. "Illegal platinum" isn't what it sounds like it is; it's not like real life copy+paste machine to create counterfeit money and trash the civilian market. Instead, platinum is bought with real life money with a credit card, then person A decides to do a chargeback(Totally against Warframe EULA, do not do this) and they get immediately banned. But lets say person A did some trading with person B for a sweet sweet lanka god riven with +300% CD, +300% CC, -100% zoom for an unbelievable, too good to be true, 10K platinum trade. Person B is overjoyed and goes on a spending spree and trades with Person C who trades with Person D and goes on a market spending spree of 100 argon crystal decoration. By now, the platinum is way too mixed up for DE to take out of commission for all players. When Person A decides the god riven isn't that good and performs a chargeback, do they ban all the people with illegal plat? It could be weeks or month before they trace the platinum and make the choice. To juxtapose the situation: DE was promised some mula by Person A and DE gave Person A some ingame currency to spend in exchange for said mula. But Person A is sneaky and did the switcheroo and they got their money back, after being able to enjoy their short lived platinum millionaire to their heart content. And DE is stuck with the loss. Person B using current said model, is banned and barred from playing the game they spent their time and love on, is stuck with the end of the stick; forced to pay back the platinum they spent/owned for account access. Again, the problem is complex and very misunderstood. There are players with legit purchased platinum buying all the prime access and have over 20,000+ platinum sitting around. But those players are extremely rare and the chance of finding one would be like winning Primed Chambers on Devstream. Then there are the players who charge back their platinum purchase after spending all of it, then have the nerve to file a complaint against DE about how unfair it is. With all thing considered, the innocent trader should not be harmed by the bad decision of Person A. But to DEs eyes, they couldn't tell the whether Person B created a fake account of Person A to use to siphon "free" platinum to use on his account without getting banned if the solution was to ban only the "culprit", and the partner in crime gets away. This is one of the several hard problems to be considered when DE finally get enough pressure from the community to work out a solution. If you want to read more suggestions on other people resolution to this problem(It's not 100% foolproof). Click here for the Reddit post: Arrrgh Or continue to read below: Spoiler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leland_Gaunt Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 It's easier to just lay the smack down in general than actually having to investigate and backtrack. DE handles it like that just for convenience reasons, and apparently, they don't mind a "guilty by suspected association" stance. It's lazy and horribly unfair. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Viveeeh Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 The fact that I started reading the forum half an hour ago this morning and this one is the third thread about bad plat is a clear indicatior that this issue needs to be resolved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 51 minutes ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said: The fact that I started reading the forum half an hour ago this morning and this one is the third thread about bad plat is a clear indicatior that this issue needs to be resolved. 3 out of how many people dealing in Plat? Are you aware of how many people play the game? 1 hour ago, PyschoGrizzlyBear said: This is one of the several hard problems to be considered when DE finally get enough pressure from the community to work out a solution. There's only a single solution: Plat goes untradable. DE isn't going to eat the costs of chargebacked Plat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX-3DR Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) You have to understand where "illegal" Platinum comes from to know that this problem isn't easily fixed. Any Platinum can go bad at any point in time as long as the person who purchases it manages to reverses the transaction used to purchase it. On the subject of tracking all transactions and reversing, the problem is that it's difficult to do because it would need to track beyond market purchases and trading. It's extremely difficult to reverse various situations, such as when the Platinum is used to purchase a slot, which is then taken up by legitimate items such as claiming a frame from your Foundry or earning a new Riven mod from the Sortie. Unless you reverse that action as well, which opens another can of worms with Orokin Reactors, Affinity earned, Exilus Adapter, etc, the system will likely not be able to deal with the orphaned data properly. The only surefire way to revert everything with no chance of exploit is to rollback the entire account to the transaction that went bad. Doesn't sound like a big deal but this also means daisy chaining it down the line to everyone who has interacted with you. If you don't do this, people are going to get a ton of Platinum, trade it to their main account, buy slots and items from the shop, rank them up to 30 and then chargeback the initial transaction to get free weapons that gets thrown away when they're done. There will be plenty of ways to exploit the game without a complete rollback. Edited January 30, 2019 by RX-3DR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Viveeeh Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, peterc3 said: 3 out of how many people dealing in Plat? Are you aware of how many people play the game 3 forum treads about problems with traded plats I read here during a 30 minutes interval I was browsing this forum today... Geez mate, I'm not a native English speaker, but I think I was clear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said: 3 forum treads about problems with traded plats I read here during a 30 minutes interval I was browsing this forum today... Geez mate, I'm not a native English speaker, but I think I was clear. Topics become "hot" and the forum is awash in threads about something. In 30 minutes, I would come to the conclusion nobody plays anything but Chroma and Atlas and there are no other frames. Link to the threads. Note if it's the same people in the threads or different ones. Are they reporting their own issues or someone else's? Is the info believable or does it look like they are actually in the wrong and are stirring the pot to try and weasel out of a situation they put themselves into while knowing the consequences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindigoTG Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Madas007 said: If I trade one of my God Rivens for say 10k plat... ... then you deserve to be punished for being a part of the riven problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Viveeeh Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 minute ago, WindigoTG said: ... then you deserve to be punished for being a part of the riven problem. That's a different kind of problem to be honest... I feel you, not a big fan of rivens either, but still, trading them is not a crime. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconer777 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 4 часа назад, Madas007 сказал: I'd really like an answer from DE to put honest players minds at rest .. not expecting one but hoping for one .. Yes, it would be nice to hear the answer of someone from the DE to this question. This is a serious problem, in my opinion, the safety of customers and their confidence in safe trading is more important than any alteration of Vauban or something like that, and the response from the developers would be more appropriate, than the next "no, everything is OK!" from white knights. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagPrime Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 A decent solution would be the bad plat still being removed but the account be left open and playable, with the negative balance, but all trades suspended until the plat balance goes back to positive. Let's players whittle down the negative balance with smaller plat transactions. Riven trading alone generates insane plat amounts, anyone who had to pay for a lump sum of 10k plat, yikes. Hundreds of dollars there, easier and cheaper to start over. Even for a vet. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulden Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) Yup, thats on DE not thinking how online gaming trading community has some real bad apples. And thats without an AH in... They should redo their plat and add tracking to it. And at the very least add a 24 hour cooldown before trading it. That way you can at least have a solid record of where it came from, which is the account that will place the charge back. Ban the root, as many times as it takes until they get tired of it. To the gaming trading community, be nice to yourselves, those high values are doing nothing but attracting the scum of the online community. I get you love trading, but please don't burn the platform that is supporting your passion for trading. Edited January 30, 2019 by Souldend78 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psianide73 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Having recently been a victim of my own stupidity (I bought prime access from a 3rd party when I first picked the game up), I've done a lot of reading on the subject, mainly on Reddit. It would seem that many of the people who claim to have had plat removed after an innocent trade, were in fact buying plat from an rmt, and were trading trash rivens or mods to make the trade look legit. Anyone who genuinely traded for dirty plat without knowing has allegedly never been punished. This is just what I've read, don't shoot the messenger. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphar86 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) To eliminate the problem DE would have to eliminate the reason. And the reason is: reversible transactions. That is what is the problem here. And the solutions are already out there - most people don't use credit cards in Internet purchases, and those who do - have another means of payment for that matter. Wire transfers (throughout Europe instant, so I believe that at the other side of Atlantic too), some good payment processor companies offering a lot of means (not PayPal for that matter), or even cryptocurrencies through a payment processor. All irreversible, so eliminating the very existence of "illegal platinum" in the game. Without that step (no more CC purchases) "illegal platinum" will always be the problem, because of chargebacks, because of Warframe being probable target for shady hackers/thieves that use stolen credit cards and so on... Edited January 30, 2019 by Syphar86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappie Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 6 hours ago, peterc3 said: DE isn't going to eat the costs of chargebacked Plat. Not sure you understand chargebacks completely...DE has to pay a fee for every chargeback that occurs (typically 2-3% depending upon value). Considering DE's "revenue" and how much asshatery goes on in the blackmarket world typically in games with tradable "premium currency", the amount of losses DE has to eat per year must be mind boggling. Therefore DE is eating costs on every chargback including the staff time they have to use to manage it. Therefore what DE is doing right now with their current policies is the most globally fair to everyone, including them, involved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteMarker Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 3 hours ago, MagPrime said: A decent solution would be the bad plat still being removed but the account be left open and playable, with the negative balance, but all trades suspended until the plat balance goes back to positive. Let's players whittle down the negative balance with smaller plat transactions. Riven trading alone generates insane plat amounts, anyone who had to pay for a lump sum of 10k plat, yikes. Hundreds of dollars there, easier and cheaper to start over. Even for a vet. Then people would just keep playing without trading and they would wait for 75% discounts. Does DE really want that? People stole 10k plat from them, but they will only get money for 2.5k. Would this be fair? Now onto the topic of the thread: If I'm quite honest, this whole thing is only a little bit DE's fault, because they made plat tradable. It's moreso the community's fault, because people think that trading for 1k plat and more is a good idea. If people didn't do this, and the highest trades would be 1k plat, then banning an innocent would still be bad. But they would have an easier time to get back into positive plat-numbers. I'm not saying, that this situation is handled well. I'm just saying that it is all DE's fault is pretty lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphar86 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 @Chappie1975 if it is fair, that is highly unlikely. Probably it is something in between, but still about being fair, in a global matter, you have to consider a lot of different markets. Long story short: in some parts of the world it is perfectly legal to sell platinum. It is against EULA, of course, but otherwise legal. Particularly EU. Well, here it is also perfectly legal to sell, buy, use Windows OEM system bought from a 3rd party on another PC, company even sued some users that did that to the court of laws. Lost of course, appealed, and so on - tl;dr Supreme Court finally said "legal". Just to give you a view on what is going on here... And now we have a problem. How an user can tell, where the plat he is recieving for a riven came from? Quite tricky as it is, huh? Now we have for example largest auction site in the eastern part of the EU with a lot of offers to sell cheap platinum - and it is not some shady business, from an average user's point of view, as that company is even training the police here, closely cooperating with law enforcement. Now is it even trickier? A buyer not recieving platinum from a seller can even report him as a scammer to the police. I know, and many other players, that this is still against EULA, and DE has moral right to ban such activities, that is why I bought all my platinum ever bought through their own store. But again: not every single player knows that, especially coming from here, and I can assure you, that EU are not some thirld-world countries, and that most companies coming from this part of the world don't ban for buying/selling their ingame currencies at the third party sites (because of that sort of regulations). So of course DE has the right to do what they are doing right now, but it is not "fair" to be honest, because not only I as a seller of a riven have no means to check if a buyer bought his platinum from a legitimate source (which is DE) or got from trading - also the buyer might be fooled that he actually bought the platinum legally at a third party site ensured in his view by... the State itself. And that's EU, I don't even try to think how Internet laws are written in countries that are not parts of transatlantic trade agreements of any sort. That is why I think that eliminating reversible transactions is in fact the only "fair" way to ensure that no platinum comes from shady sources, and players don't get negative balances after legitimately and fairly trading their rivens and so on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX-3DR Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Syphar86 said: That is why I think that eliminating reversible transactions is in fact the only "fair" way to ensure that no platinum comes from shady sources, and players don't get negative balances after legitimately and fairly trading their rivens and so on. And how would you propose that ideal solution of preventing chargebacks? This is something you need to arrange with credit card providers who might not be legally capable of doing so, DE doesn't get to decide on this policy. You could impose massive restrictions on trade where people are not allowed to trade their Platinum until 120 days where most chargeback durations are over but that's not very practical. Neither is swapping your business away from all platforms that allows chargebacks. Edited January 30, 2019 by RX-3DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 10 hours ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said: The fact that I started reading the forum half an hour ago this morning and this one is the third thread about bad plat is a clear indicatior that this issue needs to be resolved. That's how this forum works. You'll see a lot of "follow the leader" threads by players who feel like they simply must have a different thread on the same topic. Ironically, that usually means the topic dies faster due to people sick of discussing it. Go figure. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphar86 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) About swapping away your business from all platforms that allow chargebacks - i don't know how it is at the western bank of Atlantic, but here many (even mainstream) businesses do just that - don't accept payment methods that allow chargebacks. It is an issue. I don't have a perfect solution to that, I just can point how others deal with this problem. Chargebacks are for example the sole reason why no seller in my country uses ebay - they just tried to enter the market and failed totally because of that, literally torn apart by their competition that does not offer chargeback-allowed payment methods. Is it a way to go for DE? I don't know. It is their business. I can just pinpoint that chargebacks are the only and sole reason for "illegal platinum" in circulation, and because of it - players legitimately doing trades suffer. Edited January 30, 2019 by Syphar86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hiero_Glyph Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) Is there a time limit on when a charge back can be performed? Isn't it 120 days? If so, could DE add a warning when trading that this is new plat and has not been fully processed? That way at least the seller has some warning and can decide if they want to proceed with the trade. Edited January 30, 2019 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psianide73 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said: Is there a time limit on when a charge back can be performed? Isn't it 120 days? If so, could DE add a warning when trading that this is new plat and has not been fully processed? That way at least the seller has some warning and can decide if they want to proceed with the trade. It doesn't seem to matter. The plat can be removed from an account months, possibly even years after the chargeback occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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