Nezha, or The Nerfed Rhino

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I usually don't approve of this answer but it's the only one I feel appropriate.

You need to Learn 2 Play him, as he is.

Don't try to play him how he was, don't try to play him as Rhino 2.0. He's insanely useful now and can easily survive Sortie, Arbitration and Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. Try out different builds and find one that works. There's a lot of ways to go with him successfully.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Nezha

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Nezha

[Tiltskillet]

54 minutes ago, KilgoreAM2 said:

This is the thing though. It is not similar, it was better. You could stack a higher count, you got invulnerability in and out of it, and it is a quick cast. Why can't we have nice things?

Halo was pretty slow until after his rework.  They also got rid of that annoying moment of total vulnerability right at the beginning of the animation.

The ending invuln didn't exist either, nor the radial AoE.  

 

[Genitive]

1 hour ago, KilgoreAM2 said:

This is the thing though. It is not similar, it was better. You could stack a higher count, you got invulnerability in and out of it, and it is a quick cast. Why can't we have nice things?

Except 100% damage reduction is not always good and losing some health can be beneficial in certain situations. For example, if you decided to use Equilibrium on your Nezha, picking up health orbs would grant you additional energy. And additional armor if you used Health Conversion along with it. And this in turn gives Warding Halo more health. So if your halo expires and you recast it with additional armor stacks, you will get more base health on the halo because you had 90% damage reduction instead of 100%. As a result you won't have to recast it that often.

The ability is not perfect and you can die if you are not careful, but damage reduction is not everything it is about.

[Birdframe_Prime]

One of the key things to remember with new Nezha is that his 3 is now only Damage Reduction, not an actual over-shield like it was before.

What this means is that even when you have that ability running, you are still taking damage, meaning that other mods will actually serve you very well while using it.

Adaptation does work, but if you can't as easily get hold of that, pick up Health Conversion, which plays into his kit amazingly well.

Another thing to consider is that now his other abilities are more important in the running of Nezha. That Chakram should spend more time being thrown at enemies than it does on your back. There is literally no more down-side to casting Divine Spears, because you no longer have the 'shut down' animation to contend with, and it combos with Chakram to mark everything that you touch for the damage bonus. Plus if you have Fire Walker active, accidentally teleporting to your Chakram will also create an AoE effect (like it did before) without ending the actual cast, so you can launch and repeat for status and stuns when you pop into existence.

There's also a more advanced tactic that you might want to look into:

His 3 has a 3 second invincibility period as you cast it, and a 1 second invincibility period after it ends. Instead of stacking massive amounts of 'shield' time on there, instead exploit the invincibility part by casting it, avoiding damage during the charge up and then letting it break for more invincibility and the radial stun.

When combined with something like Adaptation or Health Conversion, the Health Orbs generated by your 2 are easily, and I really do mean easily, enough to keep you alive and your allies will also appreciate both the free health orbs and the free energy orbs too.

Play Nezha like the new frame he is, not the old frame he was, and you'll do a lot better with him.

[KilgoreAM2]

So what you are saying is that I need to accept that the shield has been tossed to  make way for dmg reduction, and I should be grateful that I can get orb drops, worth a solid 25 points each? that seems counter-intuitive to a successful build, and why stack Health conversion, if you lose the bonus once you are attacked, regardless of how heavy the attack was?

[Genitive]

With Blazing Chakram (especially with the augment) you will drop more health orbs than you will ever need. 25 health is not much, but when you have 20 of them it is already 500 health and with 90% damage reduction you will hardly need that much healing, unless doing very high-level content with lots of nullifiers. 

About the bonus to armor, you lose it only when you get damage to health. As long as you have shields they will prevent the buff from being removed. And even if your health gets hit, you lose 1 stack after 3 seconds. Even with base shields it is possible to keep the buff up.

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, KilgoreAM2 said:

So what you are saying is that I need to accept that the shield has been tossed to  make way for dmg reduction, and I should be grateful that I can get orb drops, worth a solid 25 points each? that seems counter-intuitive to a successful build, and why stack Health conversion, if you lose the bonus once you are attacked, regardless of how heavy the attack was?

Sure, one health orb isn't all that great. But you get so freaking many of them. 

Spoiler

 

Go to 3:20 for the most impressive display of this. 

With that many health orbs in play, your HPS can be pretty wicked. Reaping Chakram builds effectively give you 25 HP every time you kill an enemy (and I'm pretty sure the augment lets you get more than one health orb per enemy), plus energy orbs, and plus the mods (and the Arcane) that directly benefit health orb pickups. 

You're also underestimating Health Conversion. The charges linger for a few seconds after you take damage, and with the absurd amount of health orbs that enemies are going to be throwing up everywhere, it will never be a problem to maintain 3 Health Conversion charges. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Gurpgork

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2019-02-04 at 10:37 PM, KilgoreAM2 said:

So what you are saying is that I need to accept that the shield has been tossed to  make way for dmg reduction, and I should be grateful that I can get orb drops, worth a solid 25 points each? that seems counter-intuitive to a successful build, and why stack Health conversion, if you lose the bonus once you are attacked, regardless of how heavy the attack was?

Just as a hint, Nezha's Halo affects his Shield too, and so does Adaptation, so once you actually have that, you have 90% plus 90% (or 99% DR) on your Shields too. Taking only 1% damage to your shields, no matter how small they really are on Nezha now, means that the only thing you ever have to worry about is status that goes through them, or Toxin damage, and even then you've still got 99% DR on your Health.

What this means is that a silly little 25 Point Health orb is actually a massive 618.75 Effective Health.

Health Conversion, on the other hand, doesn't come into effect until you take Health damage, so if you're using this as the cheaper version, you still have to have your Shields broken before it even matters. With Nezha's mobility, CC and DR, he literally never needs to die.

And 'grateful that you can get orb drops'? What an underestimation of this function. Nekros can literally survive level 200 enemies on just Health Conversion and his Desecrate cast ^^ An ability that pops this many health orbs into place for such a small cost is actually incredible at keeping you alive. The simple answer to 'why stack Health Conversion' is that this isn't a regular frame. This is a frame that can immediately, with no effort, replace every single charge of Health Conversion you lose. No lag time, just literally walk over to where the last enemy you killed and there's a charge.

Again, Chakram is the key here. It used to be a relatively wasted cast, unless you were somebody who really cared about the 'burst' healing it offered, and enjoyed getting up close to benefit from it. Now it's literally a case of 'see an enemy, Chakram it'. You get a fantastic damage boost to marked enemies, which makes this a great function for helping your scaling, and the orb drops are not some cheap cop-out, they're literally there for playing right into your modding and for a really consistent, on-demand form of healing that every single frame can use at their leisure.

Use Chakram. Use Spears. Use Fire Walker. They're all so much better that, when combined with being able to mod him to build up to 99% DR using his 3 and a single mod... literally, what are the enemy going to do to you that you can't counter?

[ScytodiDaedalus]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Again, Chakram is the key here. It used to be a relatively wasted cast, unless you were somebody who really cared about the 'burst' healing it offered, and enjoyed getting up close to benefit from it. Now it's literally a case of 'see an enemy, Chakram it'.

I think I'm SURE it offered the damage taken debuff on enemies previously anyhow, I'm a bit angry about having lost it's burst healing making it a bit harder to choose when to throw heals, but now Health is lying everywhere and it's happening on it's own.

 

On 2019-02-04 at 5:37 PM, KilgoreAM2 said:

So what you are saying is that I need to accept that the shield has been tossed to  make way for dmg reduction, and I should be grateful that I can get orb drops, worth a solid 25 points each? that seems counter-intuitive to a successful build, and why stack Health conversion, if you lose the bonus once you are attacked, regardless of how heavy the attack was?

I'm not the one to talk much about builds, nor do I run high lvl missions. But to me, Nezha is less of a Tank and more of a Support, and as all supports they have strong kits or abilities to make them close to immortal.

He can give nice energy economics with chakram, wash off status with firewalker and provide CC, also, he can teleport with Chakram, so mobility plays a stronger role in his kit. This puts a bit into perspective on how Nezha and Rhino stay alive: Nezha gets an absorb DR shield while going from one corner to the other to avoid a bunch of enemy fire; Rhino gets to be absolutely immune and is also able to charge against anything he wants, getting in the middle of anything.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

I think I'm SURE it offered the damage taken debuff on enemies previously anyhow, I'm a bit angry about having lost it's burst healing making it a bit harder to choose when to throw heals, but now Health is lying everywhere and it's happening on it's own.

The Chakram damage vulnerability  didn't exist before his rework. 

I do wish I'd played with the heal more back then--I didn't find out until it was almost gone that it was affecting objectives and npcs.  But that was, in a way, part of its problem.  It was hard to use, and even harder to notice its effects at all.  Better visuals, better range, and the improvements it got to its targeting would have done a lot to patch it up.

That being said, I like the current Chakram with its health orb mechanic, and it fits in with his other abilities better than a more conventional heal would.  (Solo, anyway.)

Edited February 6, 2019 by Tiltskillet

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

I think I'm SURE it offered the damage taken debuff on enemies previously anyhow,

Nope, brand new ^^ Previously the Chakram was a straight up damage and 'marked for death burst' healing. No other function without Reaping Chakram.

The new changes even include the addition of the tap/charge mechanic that allows you to throw it in a straight line regardless of whether you have Reaping Chakram equipped or not. And the fact that teleporting to the chakram no longer ends Fire Walker.

It's the Pablo effect; take the ability that was only ever used for one function before, and thus vastly under-used by the player base, and then make it the key to everything.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

I use an umbral adaption adrenaline/quick thinking build, i DO NOT DIE, unless i actually stop moving for a minute or 2 and let myself get shot alot

[Stygie]

I will be straight honest with you. Do you play Nezha? It does not sound like you do. You sound like someone who would say that because Gara's wall expands based on duration so should Frost's sno-globe. Nezha is very strong right now and dare I say one of the best frames in the game. Now I am biased because I am a FILTHY Nezha main who has mained him even before his buffs, but that does not disqualify what I am about to say. 

Before, Nezha was literally a discount Rhino. You want to move fast, set stuff on fire, slide like the floor is ice? Nezha provided that with the tankiness, or at least somewhat the tankiness of Rhino. He was a Jack of all Trades but ineffective at that especially when we have Oberon who was the first Jack of all Trades. What Nezha lacked was synergy and flow to his kit. You would press 3 and then 1 and sometimes 4, sound familiar? *cough* Rhino. That nothing against Rhino. He is ment to be a similar tank that is usable in most all situations. He does his job well and is a great frame but Nezha needed more to stand out and Pablo delivered.

With his rework, Nezha got what he needed to become a true Jack of all Trades in his own right. Here is what a Jack of all Trades in Warframe needs. Survivability, CC, and Utility. All abilities must be used as well and be applicable in most situations. Lets look at the og Jack of all Trades, Oberon. Survivability, he has it with his heal that also gives armor and reduces bleedout rate. CC, he has that as well with his radiation damage on all of his abilities, the hard CC of Reckoning, and a single target knockdown. Utility, he also has that with status immunity for his team, percentage hp damage, armor stripping on his ult, and health orbs on his ult.  So how does post rework Nezha stack up? Survivability, he got that with his ring. that give cc immunity, status immunity, 90% dr, and lets not forget those immunity frames on cast and breaking of the ring. CC, he also has that with all of his fire proc abilities giving soft CC, a aoe ragdoll off the charged ring shot, and his hard CC on divine spears. Utility, he has loads of this as well with his health orbs that come in droves, energy orb drops, status cleansing for teammates, and that swet swett damage boost. Obviously he is a Jack of all Trades but why does that make him good and why does it make him fun?

Here is the thing about Jack of all Trades, they can do everything but they cannot do it as great as other can. Oberon and Nezha heals are not a Trinity bless but it is a heal that is usable in most every situation. What does this mean for our Jack of all Trades? They can rely on one thing to keep them alive and well forever, they need to be using every tool they have to be effective. Funnily enough, that is how the Devs want you to play Warframe and that playstyle tends to be rewarding. Why do you think people are begging for a Chroma rework? It is boring to press 2 and 3 then nothing else. Anyways, Oberon needs to be CCing or else his heal falls flat trying to keep him alive. The same can be said of Nezha whise ring does not fully protect him. Oberom relies of his sustain and the confusion effects on enemies for him to be effective while Nezha relies on his speed and bombastic CC to keep him alive. They don't have strenghts to play to and weaknesses to mitagate. They are combinding their abilites to make up for their deficit by having such a wide reaching kit.  

So, when playing Nezha (and I guess Oberon by extension since he is also in the same boat as Nezha) you have to use everything in his kit to stay alive and be effective and trust me, he (and Oberon) are supremely strong when played properly and dare I say they are top tier powerhouses. Kinda the reasons why I akways recommend newee players to get them since they are relatively easy to get especially oberon as the game just throws him at you.

[000l000]

Le 04/02/2019 à 23:37, KilgoreAM2 a dit :

So what you are saying is that I need to accept that the shield has been tossed to  make way for dmg reduction, and I should be grateful that I can get orb drops, worth a solid 25 points each? that seems counter-intuitive to a successful build, and why stack Health conversion, if you lose the bonus once you are attacked, regardless of how heavy the attack was?

You don't get it. Since you're actually taking damages Nezha can proc arcanes thus buffing his damages but also his armor. If you're running a full Umbral set along with Rage/Hunter adrenaline you're durable as hell and even can get some energy back as opposed to Rhino who can't manage his energy as easily.

Plus adaptation mod on 90% resistance frames is just laughable, along with enough health and some decent armor, you're pretty much unkillable.

Main difference between Nezha and Rhino is that you don't necessarily have to play nor gear them the same way.

[Peter]

Nezha tank much more than Rhino.

[MickThejaguar]

On 2019-02-04 at 12:52 PM, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Build him right and his 4 lasts a long time and can wreck lvl 100s+ entirely on its own.

Pfffft what?

[KilgoreAM2]

S

On 2019-02-07 at 2:56 AM, Lucian_Adrion said:

I will be straight honest with you. Do you play Nezha? It does not sound like you do. You sound like someone who would say that because Gara's wall expands based on duration so should Frost's sno-globe. Nezha is very strong right now and dare I say one of the best frames in the game. Now I am biased because I am a FILTHY Nezha main who has mained him even before his buffs, but that does not disqualify what I am about to say. 

Before, Nezha was literally a discount Rhino. You want to move fast, set stuff on fire, slide like the floor is ice? Nezha provided that with the tankiness, or at least somewhat the tankiness of Rhino. He was a Jack of all Trades but ineffective at that especially when we have Oberon who was the first Jack of all Trades. What Nezha lacked was synergy and flow to his kit. You would press 3 and then 1 and sometimes 4, sound familiar? *cough* Rhino. That nothing against Rhino. He is ment to be a similar tank that is usable in most all situations. He does his job well and is a great frame but Nezha needed more to stand out and Pablo delivered.

With his rework, Nezha got what he needed to become a true Jack of all Trades in his own right. Here is what a Jack of all Trades in Warframe needs. Survivability, CC, and Utility. All abilities must be used as well and be applicable in most situations. Lets look at the og Jack of all Trades, Oberon. Survivability, he has it with his heal that also gives armor and reduces bleedout rate. CC, he has that as well with his radiation damage on all of his abilities, the hard CC of Reckoning, and a single target knockdown. Utility, he also has that with status immunity for his team, percentage hp damage, armor stripping on his ult, and health orbs on his ult.  So how does post rework Nezha stack up? Survivability, he got that with his ring. that give cc immunity, status immunity, 90% dr, and lets not forget those immunity frames on cast and breaking of the ring. CC, he also has that with all of his fire proc abilities giving soft CC, a aoe ragdoll off the charged ring shot, and his hard CC on divine spears. Utility, he has loads of this as well with his health orbs that come in droves, energy orb drops, status cleansing for teammates, and that swet swett damage boost. Obviously he is a Jack of all Trades but why does that make him good and why does it make him fun?

Here is the thing about Jack of all Trades, they can do everything but they cannot do it as great as other can. Oberon and Nezha heals are not a Trinity bless but it is a heal that is usable in most every situation. What does this mean for our Jack of all Trades? They can rely on one thing to keep them alive and well forever, they need to be using every tool they have to be effective. Funnily enough, that is how the Devs want you to play Warframe and that playstyle tends to be rewarding. Why do you think people are begging for a Chroma rework? It is boring to press 2 and 3 then nothing else. Anyways, Oberon needs to be CCing or else his heal falls flat trying to keep him alive. The same can be said of Nezha whise ring does not fully protect him. Oberom relies of his sustain and the confusion effects on enemies for him to be effective while Nezha relies on his speed and bombastic CC to keep him alive. They don't have strenghts to play to and weaknesses to mitagate. They are combinding their abilites to make up for their deficit by having such a wide reaching kit.  

So, when playing Nezha (and I guess Oberon by extension since he is also in the same boat as Nezha) you have to use everything in his kit to stay alive and be effective and trust me, he (and Oberon) are supremely strong when played properly and dare I say they are top tier powerhouses. Kinda the reasons why I akways recommend newee players to get them since they are relatively easy to get especially oberon as the game just throws him at you.

Okay, So this will be a lot smaller of a post than yours, but after reading the initial replies to my game, I tried to rework my play style. I still seem to have an issue with corpus, but maybe that is just me. But now Ive been using my Chakram a lot more, with Reaping Chakram, and I see now just where I needed to get myself. Thanks to you and everyone who showed me just how stupid I am.😂😂

Edited February 17, 2019 by KilgoreAM2
had to do something

[Castlefrost]

On 2019-02-05 at 6:49 AM, Genitive said:

With Blazing Chakram (especially with the augment) you will drop more health orbs than you will ever need. 25 health is not much, but when you have 20 of them it is already 500 health�and with 90% damage reduction you will hardly need that much healing, unless doing very high-level content with lots of nullifiers.�

About the bonus to armor, you lose it only when you get damage to health. As long as you have shields they will prevent the buff from being removed. And even if your�health gets hit, you lose 1 stack after 3 seconds. Even with base shields it is possible to keep the buff up.

Wait so the bonus armor stays?!!!!! Omg im missing out so much on Nezha!!!

[Birdframe_Prime]

50 minutes ago, KilgoreAM2 said:

Okay, So this will be a lot smaller of a post than yours, but after reading the initial replies to my game, I tried to rework my play style. I still seem to have an issue with corpus, but maybe that is just me. But now Ive been using my Chakram a lot more, with Reaping Chakram, and I see now just where I needed to get myself. Thanks to you and everyone who showed me just how stupid I am.😂😂

Thanks for being on of the rare people to do that ^^

By doing that, you've proved your lack of stupidity, and that some of these people replying were far too harsh on you.

And every real caster frame will struggle a little with Corpus, thanks to the amount of Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus crewmen and so on. Depends on the mission type, too.

Glad that you're having a better time!

 

[Stygie]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Thanks for being on of the rare people to do that ^^

By doing that, you've proved your lack of stupidity, and that some of these people replying were far too harsh on you.

And every real caster frame will struggle a little with Corpus, thanks to the amount of Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus crewmen and so on. Depends on the mission type, too.

Glad that you're having a better time!

 

Teah especially since Nezha can play tank, caster, healer, or even dps style in warframe. On of the reason why i love him.

[birdobash]

I disagree, having a 90% damage reduction instead of a 100% damage mitigation isn't worse, I actually think it is better. Due to how nezha's kit works now he is very self sustainable via health orb drops from chakram, with the augment you even get energy orbs and even MORE health orbs. Also since his health can be damaged instead of being completely invulnerable he is able to utilize arcanes and most importantly utilize rage/hunter adrenaline which makes him have basically infinite energy. If his halo worked like iron skin you would have bigger energy problems since nezha is much more ability spammy then a rhino is. Plus unlike rhino you have I-frames after your halo pops, meaning if you don't have the reaction speed of a snail it'll be up 100% of the time.

Other mods that work great because he still takes damage are adaptation, health conversion, equilibrium because of the insane number of health orbs he drops, oh and the reaping chakram augment is insane now because it further boosts the health orb drops, which nezha can now utilize since he actually takes damage.

Anyway Nezha's speed alongside tankiness actually makes him harder to kill than a rhino, enemies are programmed so that their accuracy gets worse the faster you move, and because nezha is constantly much faster than a rhino less shots will hit him overall, meaning he takes a lot more chip damage compared to burst damage which rhinos can be victims of if you cast his 3 or 4, which animation lock (especially the 4 since you need to be touching the ground to cast).

Side note: just read the entirety of the replies and post, looks like this is pretty much resolved. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by birdobash

[Xzorn]

Why do players keep saying Nezha has 90%DR. It's two different Health pools.

He's getting like 20k with double Guardian, 3 stacks of Health conversion, Umbra Fiber at 200% Power Strength. Assuming he has all those goodies up on 1060 raw health over actual DR for 11.5k eHP then you add his Halo pool onto it for 33.5k total eHP. If he takes 34k damage. He will die instantly. If he takes 21k damage he will have 10.5k eHP remaining in his health pool and 0 remaining in his Halo pool.

Damage isn't being reduced. It's being distributed.

[birdobash]

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Why do players keep saying Nezha has 90%DR. It's two different Health pools.

He's getting like 20k with double Guardian, 3 stacks of Health conversion, Umbra Fiber at 200% Power Strength. Assuming he has all those goodies up on 1060 raw health over actual DR for 11.5k eHP then you add his Halo pool onto it for 33.5k total eHP. If he takes 34k damage. He will die instantly. If he takes 21k damage he will have 10.5k eHP remaining in his health pool and 0 remaining in his Halo pool.

Damage isn't being reduced. It's being distributed.

In practice it's basically a 90% damage reduction, the only difference is 90% damage reduction either has a duration or is based off some sort of % reduction per unit (baruuk daggers and nova's stars). In this case it's a damage reduction but instead of a duration or count it's lifetime is based off a healthpool, so instead of it's duration being fixed or degraded over time, it's duration is based off how much damage you take.

In practice it's still basically the same.

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, birdobash said:

In practice it's basically a 90% damage reduction, the only difference is 90% damage reduction either has a duration or is based off some sort of % reduction per unit (baruuk daggers and nova's stars). In this case it's a damage reduction but instead of a duration or count it's lifetime is based off a healthpool, so instead of it's duration being fixed or degraded over time, it's duration is based off how much damage you take.

In practice it's still basically the same.

 

Like if you're doing a Toxic enhanced Sorties and you have 20k Shields but 10% of the enemy's damage hits your health are the Shields DR?

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Like if you're doing a Toxic enhanced Sorties and you have 20k Shields but 10% of the enemy's damage hits your health are the Shields DR?

Xzorn, calm down a little, that’s not the same and you know it.

Unlike shields being no affect against specific damage types, Nezha’s has no bypass. It affects all damage types, all status procs, whether on his health or on his shield. 

The only difference is that it works on a ‘redirect’ basis, where the limitation for this DR is based on the Iron Skin effect of having a specific point limit to how much damage dealt to you is redirected away from your base health and shield pools.

Iron Skin works by redirecting incoming damage into a limited pool, yes, it’s effectively a secondary health pool that will run out if it takes too much. So you’re not technically wrong in saying Nezha is the same with a secondary health pool that damage is absorbed into.

But in all other terms, this is actual DR, it affects everything equally.