In praise of MR, one of DE's most underrated ideas

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 2 heures, veloSylraptor a dit :

And I'm not disputing the benefits it has over other level systems, I'm pointing out that parts of the implementation is bad because it has a good chance of forcing people to play the game in a way they find most unenjoyable.

Citation needed, looters tend to attract a LOT of collectors 😄

This MR cavalcade has been blown hugely out of proportion. MR has only some value up to 16 or so where you unlock every possible piece of gear in the game. And even then if you're not into endurance most weapons in the MR 6-10 range can easily do everything in the game, and those ranks you can achieve so fast you don't have to even try. 

If anything the only reason i grinded almost everything is that every even MR level gives you a loadout slot, which is something i use a lot (one for each frame basically). Everything else is completely pointless. It's sort of like a passive account level with basically no implications. I don't know why people get so incredibly worked up on something so inconsequential. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Autongnosis

[OvisCaedo]

luckily DE also designed their entire affinity system so that the best way to level almost anything isn't to even play, it's to stand next to people who are playing. so you don't need to use the things you'll never use! or have fun

Edited February 20, 2019 by OvisCaedo

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

The real brilliance of MR is that it conditions folks to grind for/buy complete junk like the 3 identical k-drives to get the MR out of them.

The starting capacity change is one of the best things DE has ever done, but that's only because we're stuck with this tedious level, forma, repeat grind.

* Honorable mention goes to gilding as a further incentive to buy a prefab Moa, Kitgun, or Zaw to skip a leveling pass while completely defeating any possible "fun" of a modular system.

In Monster Hunter World I can build whatever I have the materials for, slot the skills I want from my available decorations, and immediately enjoy using it to full effect...there's a reason I played MHW 4 times more than WF last year.

So basically I reject your premise...MR might be good for DE in order to keep people playing in the absence of meaningful/engaging new content...but it's not good for players as the only way to increase your MR contributes to folks spending a lot of their "play" time psuedo-leeching at the Draco du jour because of the nonsense way affinity works.

Let me preface this by saying I am not disagreeing with the valid points y ok u bring up about MR.

That being said as for your bolded statement we both know if its armor you are going to have to upgrade it, unlock the limiter, and upgrade again (materials willing). As for weapons while most can be used outright you definitely need technical knowledge of tge weapon and are probably going to want to augment it.

So while grab and go is certainly possible there is more work to be done to unlock its full effect. Or we could just screw over the entire grind loop and do more Kulve Taroth (a.k.a. Lao Shan 2: I'm weak to Electric Boogaloo)

[Zeclem]

first of all, de isnt really the first one to have such an idea. 

and mr system is actually quite bad cus it really isnt progression. all it does is lock things away from players, which is fine but its nothing special or anything, hell its actually quite bad if you count in the fact that mr farm is one of the most boring things in the game. as long as mastery gain is locked behind this crap it will never cease being meh to bad. 

[veloSylraptor]

36 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Citation needed, looters tend to attract a LOT of collectors 😄

This MR cavalcade has been blown hugely out of proportion. MR has only some value up to 16 or so where you unlock every possible piece of gear in the game. And even then if you're not into endurance most weapons in the MR 6-10 range can easily do everything in the game, and those ranks you can achieve so fast you don't have to even try. 

If anything the only reason i grinded almost everything is that every even MR level gives you a loadout slot, which is something i use a lot (one for each frame basically). Everything else is completely pointless. It's sort of like a passive account level with basically no implications. I don't know why people get so incredibly worked up on something so inconsequential. 

How does looters having a tendency to attract collectors dispute the fact that it also has a tendency to force other people to do stuff they don't want to do?

The reason people get so worked up is because of the torturous experience they were put through to get to the parts of the game they want, be it weapons, quests, etc.

Most weapons in MR 6-10 range being able to easily do anything in the game is relevant, how? I had to get to MR 14 to get the weapons I want, because aesthetic, style, and feel is the most important characteristic of weapons, performance has nothing to do with it.

If your argument is that people don't need weapons at higher MR, well, people don't really need to do anything. People don't need to play the game, or eat, or even survive. They do it because they want to. And they are getting worked up because that what happens when you force people to do stuff they hate just to get to the parts they want, it only builds bitterness and resentment.

Luckily I have passed that phase, I got all the stuff I want, and I will likely never have to go through that again.

I'm speaking out more in sympathy to the people who have yet/are still going through that torturous slog, if nothing else to let them know they're not alone. That there are people like them playing the game. So yeah, I would agree with your last point that its a passive account level with basically no implication if you already have all the stuff you want unlocked. And people still going through this can at least take comfort in the fact that just like everything else, MR grind is finite, just like everything else in existence it will eventually end. Then they can finally play the game they enjoy.

[SilentMobius]

I think that making the primary progress metric one based on breadth of acquisition rather than depth of acquisition is, quite frankly, one of the things keeping me in this game, it's really positive and completely changes the dynamic compared to other MMOs/Looters.

Every other loot-based game makes every item that isn't at the apex of efficiency completely redundant. Rewards from old content become redundant the instant anything is perceived to be "better" in it's perceived niche. Content becomes pointless to run because the rewards are redundant, new players never see this content because players/wiki's/guides advise them not to do it.

Every player who wants to pursue the primary progress metric (and the fact that it's option is also great) will need every weapon/warframe/companion. That is a huge amount of progression-content. 

MR-locked content levels are low and easy to get to without excessive grind through undesirable weapons. For the most part a player can get the weapons they want and just stick with them if the so desire.

It is the best RPG-like primary-progress metric I've seen in the last 30+ years of gaming.

The downside is simply that all weapons count as progress and thus should never be offered in time-locked events as it locks later players out of critical progression. Also, no weapon should ever be EOL'd while allowing other players to keep them.

It would be ridiculous to say to a player in another progress-based game that they are forever locked from getting XX% of a level because they missed X event. 

I'm a founder, I literally have everything except the Lato Prime, all in my inventory, all potatoed so this doesn't affect me, but for the other players, they should be given the opportunity to get the same level of progress I have if they put in the gameplay, not be locked out because they weren't there, and yeah, that means the MR from the founders stuff as well. E.G. I would have preferred if Umbra/Skijati/XXX shadowed the MR from Excal Prime/Skana Prime/Lato Prime. While the items need to remain exclusive (I wouldn't mind if they were available again, but I respect the initial agreement and desires of other Founders) Nothing in the founders pack stated that founders would have a permanent head-start on MR.

 

 

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 2 heures, veloSylraptor a dit :

How does looters having a tendency to attract collectors dispute the fact that it also has a tendency to force other people to do stuff they don't want to do?

The reason people get so worked up is because of the torturous experience they were put through to get to the parts of the game they want, be it weapons, quests, etc.

... 

If your argument is that people don't need weapons at higher MR, well, people don't really need to do anything. People don't need to play the game, or eat, or even survive. They do it because they want to. And they are getting worked up because that what happens when you force people to do stuff they hate just to get to the parts they want, it only builds bitterness and resentment.

Double standards much? Nobody forces you or anyone to do anything. If it is such a torture, then why did you even put yourself through it? Are you a masochist? 

I find it really hilarious anyone would get so mad at something so stupid, even more so because you can easily get to decently high MR passively leveling stuff. 

MR grind isn't a problem unless you make it one. If you do everything in your power to hate it and make every choice you can to make it a pain in the ass, shockingly, you will hate it and it will be a pain in the ass. 

This kind of idiotic stuff only has as much weight as you give it. If you have the habit to give unimportant stuff a bloated out of proportion weight, it's on you, not on the game.

 

[veloSylraptor]

4 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Double standards much? Nobody forces you or anyone to do anything. If it is such a torture, then why did you even put yourself through it? Are you a masochist? 

I find it really hilarious anyone would get so mad at something so stupid, even more so because you can easily get to decently high MR passively leveling stuff. 

MR grind isn't a problem unless you make it one. If you do everything in your power to hate it and make every choice you can to make it a pain in the ass, shockingly, you will hate it and it will be a pain in the ass. 

This kind of idiotic stuff only has as much weight as you give it. If you have the habit to give unimportant stuff a bloated out of proportion weight, it's on you, not on the game.

 

Double standards what? if I the weapon looks interesting then I'll try it, if it doesn't then I don't care. Cause guess what, if I want to do it then I'm not forced to do it, I'm only forced to do it if I'm made to do it against my desires. As I have stated in my previous post, I went through it because the rest of the game is enjoyable. Everything but the MR grind.

And again,

"This kind of idiotic stuff only has as much weight as you give it. If you have the habit to give unimportant stuff a bloated out of proportion weight, it's on you, not on the game."

You don't get to decide what other people consider (un)important. You don't get to decide what other people consider proportional weight.

There is no choice to be made here, they either level up their MR or they don't get the weapons they want to enjoy the game. A choice would be to choose between grinding MR or not grinding MR. Holding the desired enjoyable gameplay hostage behind the MR grind is not a choice, its a mandate at best, and coercion at worst.

[Autongnosis]

il y a 9 minutes, veloSylraptor a dit :

There is no choice to be made here, they either level up their MR or they don't get the weapons they want to enjoy the game. A choice would be to choose between grinding MR or not grinding MR. Holding the desired enjoyable gameplay hostage behind the MR grind is not a choice, its a mandate at best, and coercion at worst.

PFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH

Jesus christ dude, listen to yourself.

I'm out.

[Genesix6]

Fun Fact

This game is still in beta after 5 years, and DE have yet to create a progression system that does not require to collect all thing in the game, leveling them up, sell mastery fodder, keeps strong weapon, so that you can collect more standing 

since the game is still in beta, DE should try to experiment for a possible better progression. 

If you want to make a game progression based on how many things you have to collect, you have to make sure those things have value, a value that can never be lost. But this won't happen due to powercreep in warframe, because if there's a weapon or warframe that does the same thing but in a less effective way, why should I bother getting that item to begin with. 

[Methanoid]

17 hours ago, Hououza said:

The Mastery Rank, or MR system, we all know it, as it forms one of the core backbones of Warframe.

A lot of people complain about it, specifically the time gating for MR tests, or how people to this day use it as a form of elitism.

Despite those things Mastery Ranks represent a thematic and practical triumph for DE, albeit one that took them a long time to fully realise the potential of.

In the majority of games, such as Destiny, character level is your primary measure of progress. As your Guardian ranks up you gain access to new abilities and classes, but if you want to try another class then you have to start a new character and do everything from the beginning, with some leeway to allow you to transfer weapons and armour between characters on your account.

Warframe does away with this entirely, in so far as you are free to build another frame and switch between them at any time between missions. Thus players are given the freedom to change to any role that a frame can fulfil, without needing to have multiple different characters.

Naturally, you still have to level each new frame, and there is an argument here to say how is that different from levelling multiple characters in other games?

My answer is: Mastery Rank affects the mod capacity you start with available on any new piece of equipment you obtain.

  Reveal hidden contents

Up until the point at which you complete The Second Dream, Mastery Rank doesn't really make sense. However, following the revelation of the existence of the operator it all falls into place.

Mastery Rank is basically a representation of the skill of the operator at using the tools of the Tenno. Every time you master something for the first time, that is essentially the operator familiarising themselves with that piece of equipment, be it a weapon or a Warframe. It makes sense therefore that forma does not give you more mastery, as in essence all you are doing is fine tuning the item, rather than learning to master it all over again.

I find it interesting that Anthem seems to have adopted a similar approach, in that the Javelins themselves do not appear to gain levels, instead it is the pilot who levels up, which means more freedom for the player to change what equipment they want to use without having to replay the same content multiple times for each new character.

Personally I think it has proved to be one of the best ideas DE have had in Warframe, and for all it's faults it represents a solid way of promoting player choice, whilst still giving a mechanism for progression.

the whole leveling pilot<>warframe thing actually came from FireFall first, they (and previously tribes which firefall's lead dev was part of) had the whole jetpacking/flying around dood controlling a suit with different abilities thing kinda locked in first.  The MR tests were a good/interesting thing to do back in 13/14, but back then we didnt have parkour like we do now so the tests were actually challenging/fun to do, now however they are a pointless chore.  MR just turned into the logical move for an MMO like time gate to keep content relevant for longer, its nothing major or new or exciting, just normal stuff, its been done prior to warframe and will keep on going in other games in similar methods.

The warframe starchart used be be FAR more open before MR locks, junctions etc were added, yes some people ended up clearing the starchart amazingly fast but reaching the non existant endgame faster is no different to reaching the non existant endgame of today... as in you have to make your own, back near the start a lot of us just made low MR alt accounts to start again for more to do (and likely throw more money at that other account), now however that option is kinda pointless if tried today due to lots of annoying MR locks a few of which specifically targeted at vets with low MR alt accounts to make sure they didnt get into any new content even tho they can cake walk it.

So um yeah, MR has changed a lot relevance wise in warframe iver the years, but I dont think its praise worthy in a forum thread, like I said before its nothing new, its just MMO basic 101 and its been done before warframe came out.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Methanoid

[Softballbryan]

I like the MR part of Warframe. It’s simple and taught me a lot about the game. It’s added to my enjoyment overall. 

[FlusteredFerret]

In all honesty I rarely give my MR any thought. I've checked every now and then, when I figure I'm close to levelling up, but thats it. It never figures in what I choose to do in the game.

I like trying out lots of weapons & levelling them up just for the fun of it. Most I decide aren't worth the bother, but every so often I'll discover a gem that I want to keep & forma.

 

I also don't mind the fact that some weapons are locked behind MR...I've managed to get by so far without an Opticor, or any of the other more exotic high-level gear.

 

Recently completed my MR10 test and that felt like a big deal, as I was able to finally build my Paracesis and War that have been sitting in my inventory for a while. Was also able to start building a Lanka (or will once I've crafted the Fieldrons needed for it). Also started researching both the Amprex and Arca Plasmor.

 

Like everything else in the game, I've not been in any particular hurry to level up. Just taken the tests, as and when I'm able to. Haven't found any to be ridiculously hard so far...though I did need maybe a dozen practice runs at MR8 (the climbing / jumping test). Practice paid off though, as I aced the qualification run. Needed a few goes at MR9 (stealth kills) before I figured out I could use my Orvius to complete the test. 

Only ridiculous thing about the MR10 test is your starting location - you can't see anything and basically have to make a blind jump in the general direction of the boards / tiles. Once you've figured that out, the rest is relatively easy.

 

Overall I've found them to be fun (and sometimes challenging) diversions from the main game and a nice way of marking how far I've come, since I was an unranked newbie. Expect the higher tests will be considerably tougher and more frustrating though.

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[Methanoid]

10 minutes ago, Softballbryan said:

I like the MR part of Warframe. It’s simple and taught me a lot about the game. It’s added to my enjoyment overall. 

do you mean the mastery tests or the actual mr mechanic, as i cant think of anything the mr mechanic does that teaches anyone anything.

[Softballbryan]

MR requirements taught me team affinity, it taught me about Warframe weapons that I like or didn’t like maybe due to Warframe gameplay mechanics. A weapon type I may enjoy in another game didn’t work in Warframe (bows).

 It added tension during testing due to possible failure and time locking, It made me practice the tests which improved my parkour and other skills. The testing help me understand load outs and Warframe abilities which I needed to make the tests easier for me.

It also gave me a goal to work toward. Now that MR advancement has slowed to a crawl, I’ve had to make a “to-do” list to reference to keep me motivated.

I needed all kinds of resources to build things. MR advancement taught me about resources and the need to work together to harvest them  

MR caused me to join a clan.

Overall, the MR components were one motivation in the game that made the game better for me. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Softballbryan

[Toran]

The most brilliant thing about MR: you don't have to go the full length to become a total badass space ninja. If anything, MR 20+ distinguishes you as master hoarder.

Once you have reached that kind of level, the "grind" can be neglected - thanks to accumulated knowledge and resources. Very organized Tenno were done with grinding Vox Solaris standing and items in less than a weekend. New prime toys are usually collected at the day of their release (thanks to relics from faction standing and 100-300p for missing parts).

Max MR indicates you as dedicated player while not giving you game breaking benefits. There's little envy for high MR and that's a good thing.

My fav MR benefits: daily standing, high mod cap, number of daily trades.

 

[Hypernaut1]

There is not much point to the game but crafting and ranking Items.

I really don't understand how people are getting so hung up on MR. It's literally the point of the game.  There is no real end game to speak of because this was never designed that way. 

It's about collecting and ranking. You don't even have to use a weapon that long to max rank it.  A few days at best. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2019-02-19 at 9:47 PM, rune_me said:

Monster Hunter World honestly has the best farm, build, farm again game-loop of any looter I have ever played. It's extremely focused and just really well thought out.

It is stilted, boring and narrow in gameplay design.

It will be, and for the most part already has been forgotten...until they get your money for a sequel.

You can trumpet the merits of it’s “farm” system and be blinded by it’s pretty monsters but to mention it in the same breath as Warframe for what it actually offers in terms of engaging gameplay and content makes me laugh.

Turok was more engaging.

Edited February 21, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[rune_me]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

It is stilted, boring and narrow in gameplay design.

It was great, incredibly fun and very deep gameplay design.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

It will be, and for the most part already has been forgotten...until they get your money for a sequel.

It's far from forgotten. They just released their collaboration with CDPR. There's still tons of players, though mostly on the console I suspect.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

You can trumpet the merits of it’s “farm” system and be blinded by it’s pretty monsters but to mention it in the same breath as Warframe for what it actually offers in terms of engaging gameplay and content makes me laugh.

Monster Hunter World is a far better game than Warframe. Pretty sure every review out there agrees on that one. Monster Hunter World is pretty much a perfect game. Warframe is a 6-7 out of 10.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

53 minutes ago, rune_me said:

It was great, incredibly fun and very deep gameplay design.

It's far from forgotten. They just released their collaboration with CDPR. There's still tons of players, though mostly on the console I suspect.

Monster Hunter World is a far better game than Warframe. Pretty sure every review out there agrees on that one. Monster Hunter World is pretty much a perfect game. Warframe is a 6-7 out of 10.

Keep feeding the system if you want.  The group of gamers I play with bought it, played it for a few days, deleted it, re-downloaded it later to see if it improved as had been touted, and then quickly deleted it again.

Warframe destroys it in terms of content value and an ever-evolving combat system that’s yet again attempting to re-define cutting-edge innovation.  MH has polish and a nice gimmick, but Warframe crushes it for what it offers.

[rune_me]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Keep feeding the system if you want.  The group of gamers I play with bought it, played it for a few days, deleted it, re-downloaded it later to see if it improved as had been touted, and then quickly deleted it again.

Warframe destroys it in terms of content value and an ever-evolving combat system that’s yet again attempting to re-define cutting-edge innovation.  MH has polish and a nice gimmick, but Warframe crushes it for what it offers.

I don't really judge a game by the amount of content. A game could have all the content in the world, but if it was a terrible game, it wouldn't really matter. I judge a game purely by how much fun I have playing it. Yes MHW certainly ran out of content long before Warframe did, but while I was playing it, I had a ton of fun. Don't get me wrong, Warframe is a great game. I just liked MHW better. 

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Keep feeding the system if you want.  The group of gamers I play with bought it, played it for a few days, deleted it, re-downloaded it later to see if it improved as had been touted, and then quickly deleted it again.

Warframe destroys it in terms of content value and an ever-evolving combat system that’s yet again attempting to re-define cutting-edge innovation.  MH has polish and a nice gimmick, but Warframe crushes it for what it offers.

Please stop with the inane Warframe > MH nonsense, that's just personal taste. I brought up MH as it's one of my favorite franchises (been playing since PS2) and I appreciate the way it handles crafting/progression when contrasting with MR (which is the actual topic). MH is a very focused game that understands what it's trying to accomplish, it's not a game that appeals to everyone as evidenced by your "group of gamers" with exceedingly poor taste. Game creators can actually learn from other games... :)

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Please stop with the inane Warframe > MH nonsense, that's just personal taste. I brought up MH as it's one of my favorite franchises (been playing since PS2) and I appreciate the way it handles crafting/progression when contrasting with MR (which is the actual topic). MH is a very focused game that understands what it's trying to accomplish, it's not a game that appeals to everyone as evidenced by your "group of gamers" with exceedingly poor taste. Game creators can actually learn from other games... 🙂

I agree.  Objective vs subjective.

Hence your reference to my being “inane” and having “exceedingly poor taste”.  My comments on WF vs MH weren’t meant as a personal attack or judgement.  If you love MH, great.  Enjoy.

Apologies if my comments made anyone feel otherwise.

I stand by my defense of WF, and that MHW reviews are beneficially skewed by an institutionalized hype machine that inherently rewards with product/consumer favoritism and preferential treatment.

Think of me what you will. 😊

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I stand by my defense of WF, and that MHW reviews are beneficially skewed by an institutionalized hype machine that inherently rewards with product/consumer favoritism and preferential treatment.

I don't know what to make of this statement...who are you defending WF from and why are we bringing up reviews now? Western reviews for early entries in the franchise were mostly abysmal...why should I care about reviews now?

I wouldn't criticize WF if I didn't care...I have plenty of QoL suggestions for MH too for that matter...ex. for the love of all things holy, can you remember my last SOS settings?

The "poor taste" thing was clearly intended as a joke...

[(PSN)XephonixAwesome]

thing is about the mr system when you breach like 18 which is the highest ive seen for a riven there really isnt a point after except for getting more mob slots for a weapon you make.