Why this game has become less appealing to more people

[Kyronz]

43 minutes ago, Pooroldude said:

What sort of rewards are we asking here?

It not not even need to be better the sortie rewards, perhaps a nn punitive resource sink around sortie reward table instead of the useless kuva sink.

[Dabnician]

On 2019-02-21 at 10:49 PM, hazerddex said:

. the amount of elitism that were in raids.

"You can't bring that frame only bring what I want. you modded it wrong, you didn't bring x weapon or x mod."

playing with other frames was discouraged to the point of it being annoying, because you couldn't start raids and took ages for it to set up.

the vast majority of players avoided raids, because of how toxic they could get. 

FYI this isnt limited to raids and mostly why this game is on a down turn. also the fact that people have nothing better to do than screw up RNG for casual players which have zero interest in playing 12 hours a day for 1 drop

[Kontrollo]

3 hours ago, Kyronz said:

sorties  - lvl appropriate content for garbage rewardws

SO/ESO -  nothing to level and endo is insulting as  reward

arbitration- 1 round of hell with strangers for crap endo.......millions of endo away from giving a F

eidolons - nothin unique, easy to solo.....crap rewards

etd.....we need content.higher then mr8 or knock of this crap and bring back operations and events where entire server can participate for unique gear and equip.

Sounds like you are driven by rewards and already have everything there is to get. That's not a problem with the devs not having released any high MR content.

I think you should just take a break until they release their next big update or two. That definitely helps.

 

P.S. I'd appreciate it if you didn't change anything in the things you quote.

[GrimAtrament]

15 hours ago, Kyronz said:

It not not even need to be better the sortie rewards, perhaps a nn punitive resource sink around sortie reward table instead of the useless kuva sink.

So you don't know what you want and just want to complain about everything. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

14 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Sounds like you are driven by rewards and already have everything there is to get. That's not a problem with the devs not having released any high MR content.

I think you should just take a break until they release their next big update or two. That definitely helps.

 

P.S. I'd appreciate it if you didn't change anything in the things you quote.

A common feature of these complaints. Some people just seem to think that they're entitled to constant super rewards for merely participating. 

They'll claim that they are looking for a challenge, but whenever presented with one, they rapidly change their tune (some even before trying the new content) saying that the rewards are an insult. 

Most seem to be highly resistant to any suggestion that they can not use a meta to cheese their way through the content, and claim to have worked hard to be able to use an overpowered arrangement. 

[Rhekemi]

On 2019-02-21 at 9:32 PM, (PS4)godlysparta said:

It seems since the removal of raids

 

Raids were on Steve's whiteboard of stuff they're working on. They are listed under reworks.

Quote

I don't mean to criticize DE because what they're doing is great and all but I feel the content is now geared toward appealing to one particular fanbase.

 

Never feel sorry for or apologize for being critical. Criticism that's constructive is always welcome. Without it, improvement and progress stagnate because we can't see the shortcomings and flaws of our creations clearly, if at all.

It would be nice to have mission variety that utilizes new mechanics and forces us to think outside the box. DE does this on occasion in quests, and it needn't require drastic changes (nor should it be done to turn Warframe into a mass-market product).

Edited February 25, 2019 by Rhekemi

[George_PPS]

I personally liked raids. Eidolon hunting is ten times more fun than raids. The process of preparing and modding your gears and learning how to do Eidolon hunt is a great experience for me and for almost all friends I know. It’s challenging. 

[Kontrollo]

12 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

A common feature of these complaints. Some people just seem to think that they're entitled to constant super rewards for merely participating. 

They'll claim that they are looking for a challenge, but whenever presented with one, they rapidly change their tune (some even before trying the new content) saying that the rewards are an insult. 

Most seem to be highly resistant to any suggestion that they can not use a meta to cheese their way through the content, and claim to have worked hard to be able to use an overpowered arrangement. 

Not what I was aiming at in that case. I've taken breaks before, and it helps. Not saying the behaviour you mention doesn't exist, either, but it's probably a small minority.

 

 

But here's why I'm posting again: Turns out one of my previous posts got silently removed for no good reason. So here it is again, more or less. If this is violating any of the forum guidelines and has to be removed, then please tell me what I'm doing wrong before doing so.

 

On 2019-02-22 at 4:59 AM, --Q--SteelCharge said:

trials.wf/stats

Total number of trials completed: 1201440

Total number of unique players that have attempted any of the trials: 578677

Lets not forget that trials.wf didn't have 100% uptime during the time that raids were in the game, so this is a percentage of the total numbers as well.

Considering conclave almost never has more than 20 players online at once.
It's pretty clear that during the time that both conclave and raids were in the game that raids was much more popular.

There have been dedicated servers for Conclave since October 2016  (PC only), and according to the leaderboard the top guy alone has hosted 171065 games.

Since the last time I posted this, someone else has brought up the Chart of Barely Meaningful™️ yet again, and I'd really appreciate it if we could collectively move past trying to play one game mode against another. That goes for PvP as much as for Trials, Archwing and whatever else.

Coincidentally, these modes provide alternative ways to enjoy the game for those so inclined, so I think this is a rather fitting thing to point out in this thread.

 

(Here's the dev workshop thread on dedicated servers if you want to know more.)

Edited February 25, 2019 by Kontrollo
leaderboard link

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Not what I was aiming at in that case. I've taken breaks before, and it helps. Not saying the behaviour you mention doesn't exist, either, but it's probably a small minority.

Just take a look at the "we demand real endgame content" threads. The ones I described are often the ones insisting that there's no challenge, that the game is boring, and rapidly shift to "why would I want to play 'insert challenging content', the rewards suck". 

There's never a consensus on what sort of content they're asking for, just "better". Some want bullet sponges, others insist that bullet sponges are killing the game. Some want raids back, others insist that raids were junk and the universe is better off without them. Some say that PvP battle royale is the future, others tell them that they're idiots who need to go back to playing fortnite. Some say that we get pretty regular additions to the game and want the devs to get a chance to do their thing, others claim that the content drought is unbearable because they rushed through the last major update. 

[Cuchullin]

Just now, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Just take a look at the "we demand real endgame content" threads. The ones I described are often the ones insisting that there's no challenge, that the game is boring, and rapidly shift to "why would I want to play 'insert challenging content', the rewards suck". 

There's never a consensus on what sort of content they're asking for, just "better". Some want bullet sponges, others insist that bullet sponges are killing the game. Some want raids back, others insist that raids were junk and the universe is better off without them. Some say that PvP battle royale is the future, others tell them that they're idiots who need to go back to playing fortnite. Some say that we get pretty regular additions to the game and want the devs to get a chance to do their thing, others claim that the content drought is unbearable because they rushed through the last major update. 

That is the general trend for those topics where no matter how reasonable it starts out it usually devolves into the various camps of preference without any real suggestions of what can actually be done. As an example for raids there are those who want raids back but don't actually define how it can be done in a way that wouldn't be buggy which was apparently was a problem when it was taken down. 

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-02-25 at 3:04 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Just take a look at the "we demand real endgame content" threads. The ones I described are often the ones insisting that there's no challenge, that the game is boring, and rapidly shift to "why would I want to play 'insert challenging content', the rewards suck". 

There's never a consensus on what sort of content they're asking for, just "better". Some want bullet sponges, others insist that bullet sponges are killing the game. Some want raids back, others insist that raids were junk and the universe is better off without them. Some say that PvP battle royale is the future, others tell them that they're idiots who need to go back to playing fortnite. Some say that we get pretty regular additions to the game and want the devs to get a chance to do their thing, others claim that the content drought is unbearable because they rushed through the last major update. 

I know they are there but I tend to steer clear of those.

As for the community having no clear idea, and sometimes even opposing views on what DE should put in as "endgame": That's people for you (myself included btw.). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Spoiler

Probably unpopular opinion:

I think Arbitrations were a pretty good attempt. First thing I did was bring my Nyx and a bow and I had fun (damn those dodging drones). But of course if you're going in there with e.g. one of the super tanks and a max range Polearm with a Riven I can definitely see how that wasn't a satisfying experience. But that's more a flaw with how the game is structured (power discrepancy).

 

And to tie that back to thread's original point: It's definitely true that the game has moved more into a "Hulk Smash" direction, and with the exponential scaling in our power levels, that doesn't make it easy to design content that's presenting an actual challenge to topped out players. At least not without leaving most everyone else at the door.

Although that's not to say that Trials were the be-all-end-all. Honestly, I got bored by them at some point, too. Still a shame they got removed, though.

[Methanoid]

9 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Probably unpopular opinion:

I think Arbitrations were a pretty good attempt. First thing I did was bring my Nyx and a bow and I had fun (damn those dodging drones). But of course if you're going in there with e.g. one of the super tanks and a max range Polearm with a Riven I can definitely see how that wasn't a satisfying experience. But that's more a flaw with how the game is structured (power discrepancy).

 It's definitely true that the game has moved more into a "Hulk Smash" direction

 

its kinda been that way from the start, you only have to look back at when the boltor prime and/or flux rifle ruled the roost before damage 2.0, we had hulk smash near instantly, the only thing thats changed is the quantity of hulk smash items, as for the people wanting challenging content, while that sounds great, thats difficult to balance, what should be the focus is "fun", you can make stuff challenging at your leisure, so long as "end-game" activities are fun then vets will play regardless of crappy rewards.

This is why watching warframe on twitch looks boring as sin after a while when you watch twitchers complete all the main questlines, after that its a pretty boring watch, instead of warframe entertaining people, its left down to the person streaming to entertain, and if they are personally that entertaining then the game they play doesnt really matter at that point.

People need to both "see others having fun" as well as have fun themselves, warframes got a lot going for it.....   riiiight till you reach the "nothing fun or interesting to do" stage, then it ends up the same as WOW, Eve-Online and other games that people invest a lot of time in, they invest so much time they feel obliged to support the game, even putting up with obvious bad parts of the game to better justify their time spent.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Methanoid

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Methanoid said:

Spoiler

its kinda been that way from the start, you only have to look back at when the boltor prime and/or flux rifle ruled the roost before damage 2.0, we had hulk smash near instantly, the only thing thats changed is the quantity of hulk smash items, as for the people wanting challenging content, while that sounds great, thats difficult to balance, what shoudl be the focus is "fun", you can make stuff challenging at your leisure, so long as "eng-game" activities are fun then vets will play regardless of crappy rewards.

This is why watching warframe on twitch looks boring as sin after a while when you watch twitchers complete all the main questlines, after that its a pretty boring watch, instead of warframe entertaining people, its left down to the person streaming to entertain, and if they are personally that entertaining then the game they play doesnt really matter at that point.

People need to both "see others having fun" as well as have fun themselves, warframes got a lot going for it.....   riiiight till you reach the "nothing fun or interesting to do" stage.

Of course, the game revolves around getting ever more powerful.

That's not what I meant with that last part, though. We've reached a point where you don't need anything else anymore. CC has fallen out of favour now. That's not to say that the complete lockdown of whole tiles in Trials or the funnel & camp situation was that great (I got turned off by both), but at least there were different approaches.

But now? Death is the best CC, and it's true.

 

And well, here's another probably unpopular opinion: last time I got really bored of the game and more than a year before I took another big break, I switched over to playing Conclave most of the time, because that was challenging and kept me engaged for a long while.

 

So what is "fun" for vets today? Honestly, I think the only thing the devs can do at this point is keep throwing more different things at us and see what sticks. Especially in the endgame department there isn't going to be anything that pleases the majority anymore, even of those people who have reached the necessary power level.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Some people over think this game way too much.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

58 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

 

  Hide contents

Probably unpopular opinion:

I think Arbitrations were a pretty good attempt. First thing I did was bring my Nyx and a bow and I had fun (damn those dodging drones). But of course if you're going in there with e.g. one of the super tanks and a max range Polearm with a Riven I can definitely see how that wasn't a satisfying experience. But that's more a flaw with how the game is structured (power discrepancy).

 

 

And that's the rub. You didn't demand that you should only use the meta. You didn't kill the game for yourself. You wanted the challenge and took steps to make it happen. 

 

A lot of the empty vessels making the most noise, either figured out how to cheese, or waited for someone else to do it and copied it. So they're sitting around claiming that the content is not changing, when in reality the only problem is one of their own making. 

 

In the past I suggested a strategic arbitrary loadouts tactical mode; SALT mode for short. The idea is to completely randomise the group, random frames, random weapons, random mods. That way nobody can sit around and expect to press 4 in a purpose built, purpose modded frame meant to cheese the content, while they sit back and stroke their epeen complain about how easy it is. 

 

But I guarantee that those same empty vessels will not play it, and insist that the lack of "acceptable" rewards is the reason. I say this because that's pretty much the response when I suggested it. 

[Kontrollo]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And that's the rub. You didn't demand that you should only use the meta. You didn't kill the game for yourself. You wanted the challenge and took steps to make it happen.

 

A lot of the empty vessels making the most noise, either figured out how to cheese, or waited for someone else to do it and copied it. So they're sitting around claiming that the content is not changing, when in reality the only problem is one of their own making.

Well, not quite. I just happen to like these things. Other people play for their own reasons.

 

35 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

In the past I suggested a strategic arbitrary loadouts tactical mode; SALT mode for short. The idea is to completely randomise the group, random frames, random weapons, random mods. That way nobody can sit around and expect to press 4 in a purpose built, purpose modded frame meant to cheese the content, while they sit back and stroke their epeen complain about how easy it is. 

 

But I guarantee that those same empty vessels will not play it, and insist that the lack of "acceptable" rewards is the reason. I say this because that's pretty much the response when I suggested it. 

Sounds interesting but is obviously not for everyone. And of course it then boils down to: "if the mode isn't engaging for me, are the rewards worth investing my time, at least?"

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

42 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, not quite. I just happen to like these things. Other people play for their own reasons.

 

Sounds interesting but is obviously not for everyone. And of course it then boils down to: "if the mode isn't engaging for me, are the rewards worth investing my time, at least?"

Ahhhh but in either case, almost any further complaint that challenges no longer exist can be summarily dismissed with much scoffing and ridicule. And maybe then we could all move past those sorts of complaints into the sorts that actually bring suggestions that while not everyone may agree, at least there's an attempt to offer constructive suggestions. 

[Sintag]

On 2019-02-21 at 11:03 PM, --Q--SteelCharge said:

No you don't. 

The numbers don't lie, raids were more popular than Conclave, and Conclave is still in the game.
The excuse that they were too buggy? No. Eidolons are still in the game and they're riddled with as many bugs as Raids had.

Conclave's easier to fix compared to raids, as most of the time those changes consist of tweaking a few numbers, tweaking some FX, or otherwise miniscule, easy tweaks.

Whereas with Raids, something different broke every hotfix, requiring dev time to patch those up, except only a minority were consistently playing this content compared to the rest of the playerbase, and the majority's got issues, it's probably going to be better to patch that up with the limited number of devs and cash compared to fixing the same for Raids.  As unstable as Eidolons might currently be, at the very least they're consistent in terms of what stays fixed.

Then there's the fact that you can get more Arcanes, faster, from handling the giants (1 every 24h from Raids or 3 or more from Tridolon Caps every 2h, 50m isn't really a choice if you're looking to maximize efficiency), as well as easier accessibility (Raids: Go to market, buy key BP for IIRC 100k Credits (correct me if I'm wrong), make the key, assemble 8 players, go / Tridolons: Clear War Within, get Mote Amp, wait for night in Cetus, step outside).  Now, do I think we should have 8-player experiences?  Absolutely, and I do think that if they ever bring this system back, you should be allowed to do this for Eidolons and Orb Mothers.  But the Raids we had, while good ideas, didn't quite fit the bill.  This isn't to say Raids were completely garbage, but with the new means of acquiring Arcanes, and the new 'raid-bossish' things we've got, their purpose was served.  They might bring them back, but if they do they're gonna need some serious tweaks to suit the faster gameplay we've had since U16 and Law of Retribution.  Maybe with Corpus Gas City v2 incoming we'll see something about stopping the Amalgam Development Program for good or something like that, I dunno.

tl;dr: Read above.

[Jonas_T_acc]

Alright, I just respond here because I havn't seen my point of view accessed like.. ever so, like when I got to MR 24-ish I would say the game took a turn.. for me at least, I could start playing the game as it "should be played" without looking for rewards all the time and that's actually a game changer. That's when I learned how to properly mod frames, weapons and go trough missions, yes.. p.r.o.p.e.r.l.y, not rushing like an idiot with whatever loadout under 3 minutes, but taking my time, looking around and finishing in 4+ minutes instead, yes I know the travesty in loosing almost 2 extra minutes of your life!!!!. But I can bet that almost everybody with 3k+ hours in warframe have something of this mindset and the freedom of picking and choosing the missios I want to play instead of what I need to play. You will get your stuff if you just put in the time, don't worry.

On the same note I do feel like if you don't have at least a few hours everyday to spend on Warframe it might not get you where you want to be fast enough.

I'm also one of those people that went into Warframe and quit almost immediately at first, only to return about a year later. I then discovered that everything I needed to know was accessible trough the wiki page or youtube videos which is something I actually like.

[Sintag]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

In the past I suggested a strategic arbitrary loadouts tactical mode; SALT mode for short. The idea is to completely randomise the group, random frames, random weapons, random mods. That way nobody can sit around and expect to press 4 in a purpose built, purpose modded frame meant to cheese the content, while they sit back and stroke their epeen complain about how easy it is. 

 

I'd do most of them save maybe the mod randomization.  What I'd do with mods getting randomized would be to at least stick on Serration and Split Chamber, then randomize from there.  That way even if you get a roll of 'eh' to 'why this mod on this weapon' Mods you're still getting decent damage output for a little bit.

Same with frames, I'd stick Vitality onto them and roll from there so at least you can be looked at funny and not fall onto your back.  But after that, I'd actually be cool with this mode as a weird offshoot.  It'd certainly give me an idea on how a gun works at baseline so I know if I should ditch it when I make it or Potato it and keep it to the end of days.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

IMO, to make Archgun Rivens as a Arbitration offerings is excellent idea and I hope it will cause comeback of CC Frames and more Coop.

[Cuchullin]

1 hour ago, Jonas_T_acc said:

when I got to MR 24-ish I would say the game took a turn.. for me at least, I could start playing the game as it "should be played" without looking for rewards all the time and that's actually a game changer. That's when I learned how to properly mod frames, weapons and go trough missions, yes.. p.r.o.p.e.r.l.y, not rushing like an idiot with whatever loadout under 3 minutes, but taking my time, looking around and finishing in 4+ minutes instead, yes I know the travesty in loosing almost 2 extra minutes of your life!!!!. But I can bet that almost everybody with 3k+ hours in warframe have something of this mindset and the freedom of picking and choosing the missios I want to play instead of what I need to play. You will get your stuff if you just put in the time, don't worry.

I think this is a pretty good point especially with the whole meta trend of cheesing everything and creating the speed-running championships that the majority of public missions especially between long term vets and average casual gamers. From my perspective (as a casual average at best player) most vets at a certain stage/MR level will already have everything or near enough to it and will generally go through virtually everything pretty easily at high speed and the casual players tend to either have to spend time on the cheese factor trying to keep up which generates that whole meta cycle.

By all means have high level content for vets who've sunk who knows how many hours into warframe but I also think having at least some content that slows things down can be good as well. I think i saw earlier in this thread that there was a hulk smash concept in a ninjas play free game which is fine but i think if DE took some time to refine the system a little to allow for the stealth option to be as viable as the blow through everything route. Kinda like how you get bonus standing on the fortuna missions if you manage to complete missions a certain way.

That's just my thoughts on it anyway.

[xXIcyBladeXx]

How about they rework Dark Sectors, Nemesis and Raids.

[ProfessorLitmus]

On 2019-02-23 at 2:30 PM, FlyingDice said:

No, this started when they dropped towers and keys for relics.

You went from content that gave higher rewards for taking more risks in more challenging missions, which also required you to play mission types you couldn't speedrun, into content where the reward ratio for going one round is the same as going for twenty, the risk (minimal) never changes, there's an extra slow grind to encourage buying resource boosters, and players can freely ignore all slower mission types.

also they made it so you had to grind for an ungodly amount to make those relics have a slightly better drop chance and the fact that you need to sacrifice four relics for one item at a time for the best chance at the loot you want instead of one key having a potential for infinite rewards on most of the endless mission types.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

On 2019-02-21 at 10:44 PM, Rivyn said:

Arbitrations. You need to complete the entire map to access them. I'd consider that fairly experienced. 

You can solo an Arby with inaros or any tank and the Melee of your choosing it’s not really for experienced players imo right now anyway. I’d say it’s I’ve done the start chart lol what now people