I think the nightwave system really shows a issue that users have with missables.

[TeddyTalker]

The nightmare system really shows the big problem that people have with the notion of missable content... They want everything. In the case of the alert system,  while it was theoretically possible for you to get more than the nightwave system,  it was only if you no life the game and stayed glued to the alerts.  It was actually more missable,  and more intrusive as you had to goto the alert to do the thing.

Nightwave is less intrusive as you can just vary your weapon to complete the challenge sometimes in whatever mission you are doing, or get rewarded for a mission you are already doing.  While this can cause players to sometime go out of their way to do content they never do like an hour long survival,  alerts tended to pull away players from their main task anyway, and these events are hardly a necessity.  

 

I think people feel they need to get everything, as missing anything means less content they experience and thus less fun and resources. The nightwave was designed for people to not only do it at their own pace,  but not complete every task to get all the rewards. If you really need to get it all done, then the MR grind always there tbh. I think people just want everything and cannot stand having things be missable at all. 

[Raskol]

Neh, its new, its still a bit unknown, ppl will get used to this and eventually wont spam threads like "60 min kuva surv?! wft DE!!!" anymore
(i mean just look at the name - its ELITE weekly CHALLENGE)

[Chewarette]

5 minutes ago, Raskolnikow said:

Neh, its new, its still a bit unknown, ppl will get used to this and eventually wont spam threads like "60 min kuva surv?! wft DE!!!" anymore
(i mean just look at the name - its ELITE weekly CHALLENGE)

3 ESO waves is also an ELITE CHALLENGE and can be done by doing 3 Waves 1 in ESO, that's barely a real challenge.

OT: missable are indeed a problem, but it's more a gaming industry problem which tries to squeeze players as much as possible. They very well know that, if you limit offers in time, people will feel "forced" to obtain the items right now and will not even think about it (is it worth it or not ? Better to get it now and think about it later on). It's a predatory practice to create false scarcity regarding items that should be available at every time.

For the time being that's not a big deal in Warframe (armor set / syandana). But that's a first step that can get worse very quickly.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Chewarette

[Ragingwasabi]

6 minutes ago, Raskolnikow said:

Neh, its new, its still a bit unknown, ppl will get used to this and eventually wont spam threads like "60 min kuva surv?! wft DE!!!" anymore
(i mean just look at the name - its ELITE weekly CHALLENGE)

a whole bunch of less boring and time consuming challenges are also elite weekly.

[Schmiddy]

1 minute ago, Chewarette said:

3 ESO waves is also an ELITE CHALLENGE and can be done by doing 3 Waves 1 in ESO, that's barely a real challenge.

OT: missable are indeed a problem, but it's more a gaming industry problem which tries to squeeze players as much as possible. They very well know that, if you limit offers in time, people will feel "forced" to obtain the items right now and will not even think about it (is it worth it or not ? Better to get it now and think about it later on). It's a predatory practice to create false scarcity regarding items that should be available at every time.

Missables are a problem, when you can buy them - the Nightwave is in no way predatory, if you have a fear of missing out, then just do it. it takes 2Hours of investment a week to complete.  These seasonal items are story bound and SHOULD not be able to be aquiered at any given time. 
As DE has said in Devstream; these rewards might be available in later Nightwaves´s pristiges - this isn´t false scarcity - it is just exclusivity. There is NO money invovled and its just about commitment and "work" - you definetly watched too much Jim Sterling and project the jimquisition on things that he´d lough about. DE has NO problem with monitisation and is VERY transparent; we have had exclusive rewards in events too. these are GAMEPLAY related exclusive rewards, like achivements etc. 
 

[Raskol]

2 minutes ago, Ragingwasabi said:

a whole bunch of less boring and time consuming challenges are also elite weekly.

Thats the thing - you dont like it? its too hard? boring? your dog died? whatever?

You dont have to do it and youll still be able to get to rank 30 and probably above

Edited March 6, 2019 by Raskolnikow

[TeddyTalker]

6 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

3 ESO waves is also an ELITE CHALLENGE and can be done by doing 3 Waves 1 in ESO, that's barely a real challenge.

OT: missable are indeed a problem, but it's more a gaming industry problem which tries to squeeze players as much as possible. They very well know that, if you limit offers in time, people will feel "forced" to obtain the items right now and will not even think about it (is it worth it or not ? Better to get it now and think about it later on). It's a predatory practice to create false scarcity regarding items that should be available at every time.

For the time being that's not a big deal in Warframe (armor set / syandana). But that's a first step that can get worse very quickly.

It been in many games, such as missables items and events in playthroughs, and it always led to complaint. The only big difference was that those games could not be patched so you could just miss the best wep in the game and be SOL. Not so much in war frame as you can just complain to get change... I miss when players would just optimize, or decide to play for fun. I missed half of the elite challenges last week... because I did not feel like doing them. Why is that so hard for some to grasp? I think DE should take the fortnite battle pass approach to this in just that players who do these things get a unique but exclusive reward for the time put in, but I am not sure how that will jive with some of the people on the board.

[Lutesque]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

They want everything.

Who doesn't ? 

Do you want people to feel bad for wanting stuff ? 

 

[Chewarette]

7 minutes ago, Schmiddy said:

 There is NO money invovled and its just about commitment and "work" 

I have no freaking clue who is Jim Sterling, goddamnit any discussion on the Internet in 2019 leads to a random Youtuber / Streamer / TV Host superstar that only the poster cares about.

There is no money involved... today. Come back one year from now and try to buy the Grakata mod or any other mod they'll introduce with the future event, it will cost 2k platinum and you'll be really, really happy that there isn't any money involved.

[TeddyTalker]

2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Who doesn't ? 

Do you want people to feel bad for wanting stuff ? 

 

Wants are not needs.

I want volt prime, and as a switch player, I am at the mercy of the market. Am I entitled to him? No. I just either shell out the plat or do without. Sometimes you should just work with a system instead of changing it to get what you want without good cause.

[Schmiddy]

4 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

I have no freaking clue who is Jim Sterling, goddamnit any discussion on the Internet in 2019 leads to a random Youtuber / Streamer / TV Host superstar that only the poster cares about.

There is no money involved... today. Come back one year from now and try to buy the Grakata mod or any other mod they'll introduce with the future event, it will cost 2k platinum and you'll be really, really happy that there isn't any money involved.

The Warframe economy is completely player driven, if you wan´t the mods, do the quests - its that simple. 
Stuff might be reintroduced, just like other things. the argument is nonsensical; you´re saying, that DE does employ these practices in order to create false scarcity for.... profit?
but then you refer to the Warframe player driven economy ? None of these mods, or rewards are essential - they´re a bonus reward for completing a nieche part of the game. 
If you don´t want to, then don´t.

Sorry for alligning you with Jim Stirling etc. (a great youtuber btw, you´d allign with ALOT of his critiques, which coincidentally i do too) 
It very much sounded like your opinions are heavily based upon his view of the Tripple A industry. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Schmiddy

[TeddyTalker]

3 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

I have no freaking clue who is Jim Sterling, goddamnit any discussion on the Internet in 2019 leads to a random Youtuber / Streamer / TV Host superstar that only the poster cares about.

There is no money involved... today. Come back one year from now and try to buy the Grakata mod or any other mod they'll introduce with the future event, it will cost 2k platinum and you'll be really, really happy that there isn't any money involved.

We already have this problem with prime war frames, plague weapons, wolf parts (due to rarity), rivens, etc. Limited supply but high demand. This is the nature of a market based game.

[Ragingwasabi]

14 minutes ago, Raskolnikow said:

Thats the thing - you dont like it? its too hard? boring? your dog died? whatever?

You dont have to do it and youll still be able to get to rank 30 and probably above

 

yes, theres an issue so just ignore it.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I'm six years in..I've done my share of hour to two hour to three hour long survivals...I've done this all over and over again..(except hunting down animals..God no!, I draw the line at that tedium)...At this stage I just want new enemies to push my builds..I want a Infested monster or giant roller ball to chase me through a tileset like the opening of Indiana Jones...I want more of those OrbMothers, Eidolons, Thumper Tanks..Nox, Bursa, Wolf of Saturns,...but another kill this many same old same old enemies and run through this hoop another million times...is sorta depressing in a way...but you know,... whatever..it's the new norm, but it's not...

[(PSN)robotwars7]

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Who doesn't ? 

Do you want people to feel bad for wanting stuff ? 

 

wanting everything is fine, it's an impulse, it's human nature. but it is also still unreasonable and in many cases, impossible. we all want the shinies, but some people don't want to work for it. some people cannot accept it when things are out of their reach, even though if they just put in a little more effort than normal, they might have a chance at getting what they want. in reality, we've had exclusives tied to events many times in the past, only reappearing much, MUCH later, and yet few people complained then, so what is so different now?

this isn't the only chance players will have at Umbra Forma and Wolf-themed cosmetics, they will come back eventually. the incentive is to try and get them now, so that you won't have to wait until much later to have another chance, but even if you do wait, you still get that chance to obtain the items. Warframe has always run on a model where you pay for convenience: buy things now to reach the same endpoint as everybody else, but much faster. the same is applied to events, but instead of paying money, you pay with time and effort. put in more time and effort and you will reach the same endpoint as everybody else (having the Umbra Forma and Cosmetics), but faster.

I want to get through the 30 ranks as fast as I can, but I choose to avoid the tedium of things like catching animals. I am fully aware this will impede my progress slightly, so i will just have to make it up by catching more convicts and doing other objectives.

[SordidDreams]

50 minutes ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

I think people feel they need to get everything, as missing anything means less content they experience and thus less fun and resources.

That's totally true, loss aversion and such being totally real psychological phenomena, but the crucial takeaway here is that the game needs to be designed with it in mind. Identifying the problem is a good first step, but the necessary second step is to ask what can be done about it. And there are two options, change the nature of human beings or design the game to work with it. I think it's clear which one is viable.

[TeddyTalker]

7 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That's totally true, loss aversion and such being totally real psychological phenomena, but the crucial takeaway here is that the game needs to be designed with it in mind. Identifying the problem is a good first step, but the necessary second step is to ask what can be done about it. And there are two options, change the nature of human beings or design the game to work with it. I think it's clear which one is viable.

 

Making it so you only need to do 60-65% of the nightwave to get the stuff you want is more than fair. I think that's a good middle ground.

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

I don't think this is something new. It's carrot and stick.

[FlusteredFerret]

I think this sums it up pretty well... 

 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

48 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Who doesn't ? 

Do you want people to feel bad for wanting stuff ? 

 

No one should feel bad for wanting anything.

That being said, there are plenty of players who want everything for little to no time or effort.  It's the age of entitlement that gaming has now.  I personally am getting annoyed at how people just disregard the fact that the "haves" earn their rewards by either their attendance or their achievements, and the "have nots" get triggered by this and call it unfair.  

There are those of us who don't have plenty of things in game, but we just shrug and soldier on until we have the opportunity to earn it instead of rushing the forums to whine about it.

[Kobrakai]

Warframe is mostly a collecting game, of course people want everything.

[Enexemander]

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

3 ESO waves is also an ELITE CHALLENGE and can be done by doing 3 Waves 1 in ESO, that's barely a real challenge.

OT: missable are indeed a problem, but it's more a gaming industry problem which tries to squeeze players as much as possible. They very well know that, if you limit offers in time, people will feel "forced" to obtain the items right now and will not even think about it (is it worth it or not ? Better to get it now and think about it later on). It's a predatory practice to create false scarcity regarding items that should be available at every time.

For the time being that's not a big deal in Warframe (armor set / syandana). But that's a first step that can get worse very quickly.

The ESO challenge should at least sync with the reward tiers. It should be 4 waves at least. 8 waves preferably (so people actually do them).

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

41 minutes ago, Enexemander said:

The ESO challenge should at least sync with the reward tiers. It should be 4 waves at least. 8 waves preferably (so people actually do them).

I'm glad it was just 3... I made it to 4 solo in the regular Sanctuary Onslaught, but would have needed a group to go beyond that. Requiring 8 waves... that's as bad as stipulating: "do ESO with a friend" for me (not gonna happen for a long time - only have a newbie friend, and trying to get one of his friend to download warframe, but no success there yet).

The 3 waves of Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, I got done in 2 runs, 1 wave, and 2 waves, but barely, solo. First time trying that content, and don't want to go back unless it's in these tiny chunks for Nightwave, thanks.

You should be glad it's not forcing people to be in there longer than they need to be, perhaps just being carried or not liking the content, but doing it anyway.

If you like it, fine, do it for its own rewards.

That's how I feel about the kuva thing, and the 10 perfect captures... and the eidolon hunt thing.

 

EDIT:

On topic, as to Missables... it's entirely a problem with missables. I always read RPG missables guides before I start playing them these days. I don't like how Nightwave's rewards will disappear once the new season begins. At the very least, people should be able to keep their wolfcreds and rank saved until the event "returns", so they can pick up where they left off, not just have them dissolved into credits.

I'm also a proponent of increasing the number of available "Acts" of each category (Daily, Weekly, Elite Weekly) but only allowing players to complete the currently # we can complete, so there's no increase in standing available, but more choice in how we go about getting it.

Some have suggested making 50k rep available through Acts each week, to allow some leeway for "catchup" in case real life forces you to miss the game, or if people start late in a season.

If this is all just to boost concurrent online player numbers for some corporate report... it's doing its job by exploiting "fear of missing out" quite well... if it's meant to be fun and rewarding for those who can't play enough to catch the random alerts, it's missing its mark by a long shot - because now it's not just you "snooze you lose", it's also, real life gets in the way, you loose.

It only solved PART of the problem with alerts, by giving people a way to work toward Alert drops in a syndicate shop, essentially.

They introduced a new problem (within the scope of Alerts, the system they replaced): the possibility of completely missing out on a reward, whereas Alert drops cycled through regularly, and EVENTUALLY at alert would pop up when you could do it. Obviously a person's schedule may be such that they would never see an alert for a specific item at a specific time good for them, which is why it was good to add a shop that reliably gave them access to them... but the potential was always there to get it with random alerts... the shop has a guaranteed end date, and vague "future" return potential, completely worse than cycling alert rewards.

So yeah, I don't like how this is set up.

Edited March 6, 2019 by (PS4)AyinDygra
On topic stuff.

[SordidDreams]

3 hours ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

Making it so you only need to do 60-65% of the nightwave to get the stuff you want is more than fair. I think that's a good middle ground.

Whether a percentage of a total is reasonable or not depends on whether the total is reasonable. By itself, Nightwave is fine. In addition to all the other stuff the game asks you to do and grind for, it's not. Some parts of NW are made to be done alongside of other content, which helps, but a lot require you to specifically dedicate to them.

Edited March 6, 2019 by SordidDreams