Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

[Galataya]

3 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

That seems a bit exaggerated and uncalled for. 

Uncalled for... like the rework itself?

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, Galataya said:

Uncalled for... like the rework itself?

Players literally asked them for it... in mass. 

[DeltaPangaea]

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Players literally asked them for it... in mass. 

People are also en mass objecting to what they got and we haven't even gotten a 'We hear your concerns' in the months since.

[SilviaS12]

57 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Players literally asked them for it... in mass. 

and in another mass of unseen players, it is being unasked for, time will bring that to full circle. But hey such is life.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

I mean to be fair, a lot of people were asking for a melee update, but maybe it was just me but I thought they were asking for more control, for blocking to be more powerful, switching to melee mode just being it's own key by default so that the hold down the key thing could go away, for channelling to have more interesting effects and the two most important for combos to not be fixed direction and a second key for attacking so that they can finally get rid of the pause combos.

On a side note, I watched a streamer(forsen) play warframe for the first time, he struggled so hard maintaining melee mode and trying to work out the block system that he just brute forced half the tutorial, he got better later but it was worse than I've seen any other first time player struggle with melee.

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

I mean to be fair, a lot of people were asking for a melee update, but maybe it was just me but I thought they were asking for more control, for blocking to be more powerful, switching to melee mode just being it's own key by default so that the hold down the key thing could go away, for channelling to have more interesting effects and the two most important for combos to not be fixed direction and a second key for attacking so that they can finally get rid of the pause combos.

On a side note, I watched a streamer(forsen) play warframe for the first time, he struggled so hard maintaining melee mode and trying to work out the block system that he just brute forced half the tutorial, he got better later but it was worse than I've seen any other first time player struggle with melee.

This yeah, definitely.

but to compare DE with EA (Like the other tenno did) just because you're salty, and to say "no one at all asked for this"? That's pretty far-fetched and disrespectful/rude.  @Galataya @DeltaPangaea  @SilviaS12 My point is that Insulting people isn't how you get them to listen to you, or get them to do something you'd like to see from them. I do agree that it would be awesome to have more overall control and effectiveness.  I imagine DE hasn't replied yet due to all the tennocon commotion (since it's an immediate priority) so i'll give them a benefit of doubt that we might hear more after things settle.  But EA has gambling-mechanics, doesn't outright sell the product they offer, doesn't listen to feedback, makes excuses for their negligence or lack of content (like no DLCs for andromeda, the new anthem game mode, etc) and makes falsely advertised sub-par content. Meanwhile DE has only continued to work on improving their game. Yeah they've done some shady things in the past with their loot rates, and they get to town on nerfing things (RIP Ember) but the game overall keeps getting better, and they definitely do listen to player feedback. Let's just be patient... It's tennocon weekend, and they've had to prepare for this for a while now. They'll also need to settle back into their previous work mode and such. You want them to do a good job? We're gonna have to be a little patient, and keep giving *constructive* feedback without the rude remarks. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------back to melee 3.0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do like the current quick melee, with the immediate switch between melee and primary for better gunplay. Though it might be best if we could also switch into some sort of "full melee mode" where we have full control of our blocks and better combo/attack combinations and maneuverability. I'd love to see quicker/shorter combo effects, for the desired type of attack we want to do.

I.E.:  allow us to chain the different attacks together into a finisher (like a cool decapitation) or knocking an enemy into another one and stabbing them both, then using a combo to jump into another enemy immediately after a finisher.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[DoomFruit]

4 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

and they definitely do listen to player feedback. Let's just be patient... It's tennocon weekend, and they've had to prepare for this for a while now. They'll also need to settle back into their previous work mode and such. You want them to do a good job? We're gonna have to be a little patient, and keep giving *constructive* feedback without the rude remarks. 

We've been attempting to give constructive feedback about the melee changes before they were even released (after the preview). It was completely ignored.

We attempted to give constructive feedback about the melee changes after they were released - including all of the points which we highlighted before release and which were completely ignored. It was also completely ignored.

The melee changes hit SEVEN MONTHS ago. Melee is still exactly as deficient as it was at the beginning of 2019. Absolutely no effort has been made to try and bring back any of the lost functionality.

Over half a year. You'd expect a game about ninjas to place a pretty big emphasis on melee. But yet it continues to be ignored.

The only time they've ever listened to player feedback was with the abortive sentinel vacuum changes... and that was most likely due to their lives (possibly? - internet death threats are somewhat less than convincing) being on the line.

[Maka.Bones]

21 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

The only time they've ever listened to player feedback was with the abortive sentinel vacuum changes... and that was most likely due to their lives (possibly? - internet death threats are somewhat less than convincing) being on the line.

     I *HUGELY* doubt that. Look at ember.   What you described sounds like an abusive, and manipulative relationship. You should be careful with that train of thought/justification, if you think that behaviour is justified. 

     I've noticed more frequently than not, that anytime people start getting mouthy about something, the devs do some quick chaange (that isn't as good as it normally would be) and start ignoring that subject more and more. There's a reason why universal vacuum took so long to be implemented. There's a reason why many things are ignored. They're not going to work on something if people just keep trying to bully or abuse them into working in it (no one would want that)... That's pretty toxic behavior. So instead they're going to focus on things that people already enjoy, and things that people offer constructive criticism about. It's not to say that you can't be unhappy or disgruntled about something.

     Yeah definitely say when you dislike something and why... Just try to explain why, be polite, and be constructive. If you have suggestions, explain how your suggestion would be better. Or what it is that you like more about your suggestion, compared to what you disliked. 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Mochikomi_Shin_Jidai]

I play valk a-ot and I am really really missing the ability to aim glide WHILE STILL in Melee.  Now I aim-glide take out my weapon and get splatted because I can take damage again as it pauses my hysteria.  Ruins Hysteria mobility while still being invulnerable to damage.

 

Basically id love to be able to toggle when my aim does (keeps my in melee OR takes out my secondary.)

 

Honestly though coming back after almost a year melee, feels weird, faster sure......gotta remember those new combos I guesss

[XAlFias]

Please give an option to use the old melee system , name it legacy melee or smthn in the options , this game is mostly PVE based so such option wont be too bad . i just cant work with this new melee .. i tried for days , weeks and months . I played the game for over 2.5k hours and this is just so ............

Please just give Legacy melee option . 

[Galataya]

23 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

This yeah, definitely.

but to compare DE with EA (Like the other tenno did) just because you're salty, and to say "no one at all asked for this"? That's pretty far-fetched and disrespectful/rude.  @Galataya @DeltaPangaea  @SilviaS12 My point is that Insulting people isn't how you get them to listen to you, or get them to do something you'd like to see from them. I do agree that it would be awesome to have more overall control and effectiveness.  I imagine DE hasn't replied yet due to all the tennocon commotion (since it's an immediate priority) so i'll give them a benefit of doubt that we might hear more after things settle.  But EA has gambling-mechanics, doesn't outright sell the product they offer, doesn't listen to feedback, makes excuses for their negligence or lack of content (like no DLCs for andromeda, the new anthem game mode, etc) and makes falsely advertised sub-par content. Meanwhile DE has only continued to work on improving their game. Yeah they've done some shady things in the past with their loot rates, and they get to town on nerfing things (RIP Ember) but the game overall keeps getting better, and they definitely do listen to player feedback. Let's just be patient... It's tennocon weekend, and they've had to prepare for this for a while now. They'll also need to settle back into their previous work mode and such. You want them to do a good job? We're gonna have to be a little patient, and keep giving *constructive* feedback without the rude remarks. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------back to melee 3.0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do like the current quick melee, with the immediate switch between melee and primary for better gunplay. Though it might be best if we could also switch into some sort of "full melee mode" where we have full control of our blocks and better combo/attack combinations and maneuverability. I'd love to see quicker/shorter combo effects, for the desired type of attack we want to do.

I.E.:  allow us to chain the different attacks together into a finisher (like a cool decapitation) or knocking an enemy into another one and stabbing them both, then using a combo to jump into another enemy immediately after a finisher.

You are right I took a salty jab I knew would sting, sorry that's how I felt. No doubt great game but auto blocking is gross and should be optional. I don't know why I can't just have my Y button for weapon swap instead of Y and left trigger, I would like my block and melee aim glide back please.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Galataya

[DoomFruit]

22 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

     I *HUGELY* doubt that. Look at ember.   What you described sounds like an abusive, and manipulative relationship. You should be careful with that train of thought/justification, if you think that behaviour is justified. 

     I've noticed more frequently than not, that anytime people start getting mouthy about something, the devs do some quick chaange (that isn't as good as it normally would be) and start ignoring that subject more and more. There's a reason why universal vacuum took so long to be implemented. There's a reason why many things are ignored. They're not going to work on something if people just keep trying to bully or abuse them into working in it (no one would want that)... That's pretty toxic behavior. So instead they're going to focus on things that people already enjoy, and things that people offer constructive criticism about. It's not to say that you can't be unhappy or disgruntled about something.

     Yeah definitely say when you dislike something and why... Just try to explain why, be polite, and be constructive. If you have suggestions, explain how your suggestion would be better. Or what it is that you like more about your suggestion, compared to what you disliked.

I never said that it was justified. Only that this is the only occasion in my memory when they've gone back on what would have been a terrible idea.

[vaarnaaarne]

There's no reason for there to be a "lock in" mode for melee, the instant switch works just fine is in itself a good mechanic. The issue is that RMB should not be used for that weapon switch with melee weapons, but blocking, gliding and combo inputs.

[Maka.Bones]

6 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

There's no reason for there to be a "lock in" mode for melee, the instant switch works just fine is in itself a good mechanic. The issue is that RMB should not be used for that weapon switch with melee weapons, but blocking, gliding and combo inputs.

It would still be essential to aim, while/after using quick melee. (I.E. you see a nullifier bubble). How else would you also have weapon aiming/zoom, and a manual block system at the same time? 

So yeah it would be a better to have a way to "switch" to full melee, and back. Unless they/we just start using a new keybind for block 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[vaarnaaarne]

You have other forms of instant switch, and as I've suggested elsewhere an easy solution for switching without firing to equipped weapon and not the other weapon is to just let Reload switch weapon without automatically reloading.

I would say that return to the previous system (since "lock in" melee would basically be this) is still preferable to the current state, but I don't think it would be a good thing to mix the two. Either old system without holster, or new system with RMB and autoblock issues fixed.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

8 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

It would still be essential to aim, while/after using quick melee. (I.E. you see a nullifier bubble). How else would you also have weapon aiming/zoom, and a manual block system at the same time? 

So yeah it would be a better to have a way to "switch" to full melee, and back. Unless they/we just start using a new keybind for block 

Like I said earlier in this thread, nullifiers are insanely weak to melee focused players, no need for precision aiming, no need to dodge the bubble and they go down in one or two hits most of the time, all you need to do is hit them, and if survivability is an issue equip lifestrike and use channelling while in the bubble.

8 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

There's no reason for there to be a "lock in" mode for melee, the instant switch works just fine is in itself a good mechanic. The issue is that RMB should not be used for that weapon switch with melee weapons, but blocking, gliding and combo inputs.

Why not both? Have a quick switch mode and a full mode, quick switch is unreliable for a melee-centric player but good enough in a pinch, while a full switch offers more consistency and opens up more control options since it doesn't have to share controls with firearms, which is something melee has needed for a while; more control options, not less.

Also there is a simple solution for pc at least, give melee mode a dedicated switch button, keep the old button for switching secondary and primary while moving switching melee into its own button separate from quick melee and firearms.

Edited July 9, 2019 by YourFriendlyNoggin

[Maka.Bones]

39 minutes ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

Like I said earlier in this thread, nullifiers are insanely weak to melee focused players, no need for precision aiming, no need to dodge the bubble and they go down in one or two hits most of the time, all you need to do is hit them, and if survivability is an issue equip lifestrike and use channelling while in the bubble.

I'm talking about how you're vulnerable if you go inside their bubble. (losing defensive/offensive warframe buffs)

 

39 minutes ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

9 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

There's no reason for there to be a "lock in" mode for melee, the instant switch works just fine is in itself a good mechanic. The issue is that RMB should not be used for that weapon switch with melee weapons, but blocking, gliding and combo inputs.

Why not both? Have a quick switch mode and a full mode, quick switch is unreliable for a melee-centric player but good enough in a pinch, while a full switch offers more consistency and opens up more control options since it doesn't have to share controls with firearms, which is something melee has needed for a while; more control options, not less.

Also there is a simple solution for pc at least, give melee mode a dedicated switch button, keep the old button for switching secondary and primary while moving switching melee into its own button separate from quick melee and firearms.

Yeah this. But Vaarnaarne is also accurate in saying that it's essentially the old system. @vaarnaaarneThe main difference between a "mode switch" and the old system, is that we would still be able to perform some melee stance combos/maneuvers with quick melee without needing to switch into "full melee.... Though we wouldn't have complete control of blocking, and perhaps wouldn't have full access to all the combos. In full melee (ideally) we would completely control our blocking, and have access to a more diverse/specialized set of combos. You're right in saying that switching combat modes, would essentially be very similar to switching weapons like we used to with our old melee system. This would make melee 3.0 feel more intuitive for old players or hardcore melee advocates like @Galataya, while keeping the option for melee + gunplay for new players like some of my friends love to do. 

The switch button would keep the best of the old system, and the new system... while allowing room for growth within melee combo possibilities. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

12 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'm talking about how you're vulnerable if you go inside their bubble. (losing defensive/offensive warframe buffs)

 

Yeah this. But Vaarnaarne is also accurate in saying that it's essentially the old system. @vaarnaaarneThe main difference between a "mode switch" and the old system, is that we would still be able to perform some melee stance combos/maneuvers with quick melee without needing to switch into "full melee.... Though we wouldn't have complete control of blocking, and perhaps wouldn't have full access to all the combos. In full melee (ideally) we would completely control our blocking, and have access to a more diverse/specialized set of combos. You're right in saying that switching combat modes, would essentially be very similar to switching weapons like we used to with our old melee system. This would make melee 3.0 feel more intuitive for old players or hardcore melee advocates like @Galataya, while keeping the option for melee + gunplay for new players like some of my friends love to do. 

The switch button would keep the best of the old system, and the new system... while allowing room for growth within melee combo possibilities. 

Aye, exactly, control is key here, put me down as another fairly hardcore melee advocate, I'm pretty sure melee is my primary and guns are my secondaries. I don't want to get rid of the new quick melee, I just want the old full melee mode as a viable option to firearms as well, a hard switch was the biggest plus for me when they made melee 2.0. This new system alone is a giant leap backwards, but put it in next to the old mode as well and it's a huge step forward.

Yeah losing those buffs has almost cost me in the past(warcry or hysteria on my fav frame valkyr especially), it's why I always keep lifestrike on my weapons, any kind of buff remover does nothing to channelling, making nullifiers especially a walk in the park.

[DeltaPangaea]

I get that lately they've been occupied with Tennocon and Empyrean, but if they were gonna do something that big, why the heck did they leave us in this cruddy interim between 2.9 and 3.0? Just taking time out from the thing you're actively working on to distract yourself with something big and flashy for Tennocon, and to hell with the people still upset? Maybe 3.0 will fix it, maybe it'll bring back dedicated melee. Maybe it'll come with Empyrean. We don't know. We don't know ANYTHING.

I'm fine with WAITING for a fix. Hell, even a '#*!% off we're not changing it' would be slightly better than them literally not commenting on people's reactions in the slightest.

What's even doing on, DE? Say literally anything on the topic. You unstickied this thread and it's stayed on page 1 anyway, it's clearly something that people give a damn about since it's FOUR MONTHS OLD.

And if a response isn't forthcoming due to people 'getting mouthy' as was suggested, then that's nothing but petulance of the highest order. People are getting mouthy because people care. If they didn't care, they'd just go 'oh well' and sod off. Don't begrudge people for their love for your own damn game.

[Maka.Bones]

18 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

What's even doing on, DE? Say literally anything on the topic. You unstickied this thread and it's stayed on page 1 anyway, it's clearly something that people give a damn about since it's FOUR MONTHS OLD.

Yeah it really sucks that we haven't heard more yet, and we don't know what's going on. 

Have you considered that maybe they don't know yet? Maybe they're trying different things, considering all the different feedback, brainstorming, and they haven't decided anything concrete yet? There's also a devstream schedule they need to follow. 

18 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

And if a response isn't forthcoming due to people 'getting mouthy' as was suggested, then that's nothing but petulance of the highest order. People are getting mouthy because people care. If they didn't care, they'd just go 'oh well' and sod off. Don't begrudge people for their love for your own damn game.

Yeah, that still doesn't absolve us of basic human courtesy and decency. We're people, not animals... And even animals behave better. 

You want to be listened to and regarded? Well treat them like the awesome adults/devs they are. Carry yourself as an adult who admires their game, not one who only has negative complaints to express. 

 

At the end of the day, the game is just a game. It's not real... But how we treat people, and how we make people feel is real and it lingers. They're trying to do their best based on feedback, so try to help them instead of testing them down for it. It's good to express your dissatisfaction, and communicate how much you dislike something. Just don't let that consume you, and get the best of you. Don't let it be the only thing you communicate/are. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)azul86sapphire]

This certainly is how people should act - with respect towards others.  However, there is only so much people can take from being ignored.  And that is exactly what DE is doing: ignoring us.

I went and looked up my first comment since the melee changes came out on PS4, and that was back in March.  In my comments there, was I being rude?  Disrespectful?   How about my comments after that?  Those regarding the Melee rework before it was released?  It's all there in my post history.  I am not happy with the way things have been changed, but that is not what has caused me to lose respect for DE.  I am disgusted by their lack of addressing any of these concerns in months.  How many Devstreams, Prime Times, or other news releases have we had from them since?  How many have so much as said, "We have read and understand your concerns regarding the Melee changes."  If there has been any, I have missed them.  So far as I can tell, these are being swept under the carpet because they do not want to address it.

You know what sort of things you ignore?  Dirt on the bottom of your shoes.  Bugs or insects that you walk past down the road.  People you don't care about or have no interest in.  Things that do not matter to you or have no weight on your life.  Tell me, which of these do you think DE considers their Melee-concerned player-base to be?  Because they are most definitely ignoring us and ignoring the problems that these Melee changes have caused.  So what does that make us to them?

Sure, I can see how there are people who have gotten agitated, angry, or speak with more frustration since we haven't had any indication that DE has heard our concerns - again, after months of suffering this change.  But there is only so much people can take of being ignored.  If you think this isn't such a big deal, maybe try it in your life and see how the people you ignore take it.  Spouse?  Family?  Friends?  Try ignoring some of them.  Don't talk to them.  If they speak to you, treat them like they are not there.  Don't even glance their direction.  See how long it takes them to develop any degree of aggression.  I guarantee it will be shorter than the patience many people here on the forums have endured with this change.

Even if they don't know what they are going to do yet, a simple, "We hear your concerns," gives us more than flat out ignoring us.  Hell if they need ideas, there have been plenty suggested through this thread that they created to get feedback on anyway.  Unless.... of course... they haven't seen the suggestions because they are ignoring it.

[Sikelh]

As I've mentioned before they should either gives us an option to use either with a legacy toggle or even better what DE infact SHOULD do is allow us a way to bind the controls ourselves in ways that could allow for one option, the other, or some hybrid somewhere in between to suit each player. Best done by making each function bindable individually and allowing multiple functions to be bound to a single key(as well as to NOT be) if we choose as well as toggles for various aspects such as having a different bind set for guns and melee.

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

3 hours ago, Sikelh said:

As I've mentioned before they should either gives us an option to use either with a legacy toggle or even better what DE infact SHOULD do is allow us a way to bind the controls ourselves in ways that could allow for one option, the other, or some hybrid somewhere in between to suit each player. Best done by making each function bindable individually and allowing multiple functions to be bound to a single key(as well as to NOT be) if we choose as well as toggles for various aspects such as having a different bind set for guns and melee.

Considering that rebinding channeling when they first launched Phase 1 on PS4 completely broke melee somehow, I doubt they’d try that again.

[SilviaS12]

On 2019-07-07 at 7:19 AM, Maka.Bones said:

This yeah, definitely.

but to compare DE with EA (Like the other tenno did) just because you're salty, and to say "no one at all asked for this"? That's pretty far-fetched and disrespectful/rude.  @Galataya @DeltaPangaea  @SilviaS12 My point is that Insulting people isn't how you get them to listen to you, or get them to do something you'd like to see from them. I do agree that it would be awesome to have more overall control and effectiveness.  I imagine DE hasn't replied yet due to all the tennocon commotion (since it's an immediate priority) so i'll give them a benefit of doubt that we might hear more after things settle.  But EA has gambling-mechanics, doesn't outright sell the product they offer, doesn't listen to feedback, makes excuses for their negligence or lack of content (like no DLCs for andromeda, the new anthem game mode, etc) and makes falsely advertised sub-par content. Meanwhile DE has only continued to work on improving their game. Yeah they've done some shady things in the past with their loot rates, and they get to town on nerfing things (RIP Ember) but the game overall keeps getting better, and they definitely do listen to player feedback. Let's just be patient... It's tennocon weekend, and they've had to prepare for this for a while now. They'll also need to settle back into their previous work mode and such. You want them to do a good job? We're gonna have to be a little patient, and keep giving *constructive* feedback without the rude remarks. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------back to melee 3.0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do like the current quick melee, with the immediate switch between melee and primary for better gunplay. Though it might be best if we could also switch into some sort of "full melee mode" where we have full control of our blocks and better combo/attack combinations and maneuverability. I'd love to see quicker/shorter combo effects, for the desired type of attack we want to do.

I.E.:  allow us to chain the different attacks together into a finisher (like a cool decapitation) or knocking an enemy into another one and stabbing them both, then using a combo to jump into another enemy immediately after a finisher.

I didn't know stating the obvious was insulting people, my apologies. The new update for melee is unplayable for me and many others. Sorry not sorry.

[SilviaS12]

8 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

I get that lately they've been occupied with Tennocon and Empyrean, but if they were gonna do something that big, why the heck did they leave us in this cruddy interim between 2.9 and 3.0? Just taking time out from the thing you're actively working on to distract yourself with something big and flashy for Tennocon, and to hell with the people still upset? Maybe 3.0 will fix it, maybe it'll bring back dedicated melee. Maybe it'll come with Empyrean. We don't know. We don't know ANYTHING.

I'm fine with WAITING for a fix. Hell, even a '#*!% off we're not changing it' would be slightly better than them literally not commenting on people's reactions in the slightest.

What's even doing on, DE? Say literally anything on the topic. You unstickied this thread and it's stayed on page 1 anyway, it's clearly something that people give a damn about since it's FOUR MONTHS OLD.

And if a response isn't forthcoming due to people 'getting mouthy' as was suggested, then that's nothing but petulance of the highest order. People are getting mouthy because people care. If they didn't care, they'd just go 'oh well' and sod off. Don't begrudge people for their love for your own damn game.

WELL SAID. To not expect a backlash after destroying a crucial mode (which is melee) is just absurd and even worse not addressing it after so much time has passed and people still growing in numbers are coming to the fore with their negative experiences with the update.