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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

Some of these issues (terrible stances being the main one) were pointed out even before the melee changes even got released. Others, like mining tools or scanners unequipping themselves, should have been immediately recognised as a direct loss of functionality and likewise fixed pronto. Autoblock was almost universally hated (in opinions which were by no means ambiguous) from the start, yet it persists to this date.

No, there's plenty in that argument. What the did was dump a bunch of unfinished crap on us and then let it rot for half a year with only the barest "meh" and a feeble wave of their hand (Donkey Kong's stance change) as an illusion of a fix.

You forget that melee is a core system of this game. It's been gutted. All this other crap they're working on is pointless if the core is defective. It doesn't matter how shiny the walls and windows are if the foundation is made out of sand.

So are you saying that want them to stop working on EVERYTHING ELSE and only focus on melee...? Is that what you'd prefer? We're not just talking about shiny windows here btw... That's a gross diminishment of everything else they've been working on. Do you want them to drop everything else, and only focus on melee?

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2 hours ago, DoomFruit said:
3 hours ago, xdeathhungerx said:

Wukong's 4th ability is now testing melee 3.0 in a small controlled environment.

Please enjoy this information.

Which does absolutely nothing to remedy the issues of scanners/drills/spears getting unequipped, the inability to use alt-fire after melee, the breaking of syndicate procs, the disabling of automatic reload after melee, the complete lack of manual control over blocking and the clunkiness of channelling (the latter part is not something I've personally experienced, but that's because I never used it in the first place).

Just to clarify...  that small controlled environment is their coding machines that are supposed to be set up the same way.  This is the same environment DE calls their "beta test environment" before they release it to the wild.  Which is -- in actually nothing more than a preliminary alpha test environment to ensure their coding isn't completely gobS#&$e when let loose. 

Not that it's really a good QC check, as those of us that have been with the game since closed beta know -- DE often gives things a free pass because they don't completely QC in their alpha development.  It's often rushed out to appease the folk annoyed with their changes they thought would be accepted without question.  

This is nothing more than propaganda a red herring they use whenever they have to deal with the public in the hopes of calming the fires they are ignoring while under the gun to either fix their fumbles or right a wrong they didn't expect to be backfiring. 

You -- the player base -- are the true beta test environment that often has everything going wonky, sideways, pear shaped (and worse) to their "controlled" environment.

Keep up the good work by constantly posting to this unpinned megathread.  I would say be patient, but that would be disingenuous.  No, instead be persistent, share your anger and impatience, and keep reminding DE they did bad until they either straighten it up or say...  as someone once said, "...we're not changing it." 

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Agreed, keeping the mega-thread alive and the complaints focused around the core issues (RMB switch and Autoblock) is all we got for the foreseeable future.

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8 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

You realize that it takes them months to gather enough data/feedback in something, while they're working on it? 

You realize that those are months of which they were also working on all of the other things I mentioned already, in preparation for tennocon? 

You realize that partway through those months, the actually HAVE mentioned their progress for melee 3.0? 

So your argument falls flat. You're purely just complaining for the sake of it, since you didn't get *exactly* what you wanted.... But that takes time

Oh yeah totally. It takes MONTHS for a dev team to even do something as insignificant as saying 'Hey, we hear you, we'll see what we can do.'

Oh yeah and from what I've heard, Wukong still has the same problems regarding RMB combos being wonk as hell due to switching back to your gun. So that 'preview' of 3.0 is a preview of the problems not being fixed.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, MBaldelli said:

I would say be patient, but that would be disingenuous.  No, instead be persistent, share your anger and impatience, and keep reminding DE they did bad until they either straighten it up or say...  as someone once said, "...we're not changing it." 

This is how you get them to ignore you, and take longer. 

5 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Agreed, keeping the mega-thread alive and the complaints focused around the core issues (RMB switch and Autoblock) is all we got for the foreseeable future.

This sounds reasonable. 

43 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Oh yeah totally. It takes MONTHS for a dev team to even do something as insignificant as saying 'Hey, we hear you, we'll see what we can do.'

They've been saying something about melee rework with every single devstream. It's just not what you wanted to hear. 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Just now, Maka.Bones said:

This is how you get them to ignore you, and take longer.

If they explicitly choose to take longer because of people continuing to express opinions, then that's acting like a petulant child.

"How dare you continue to keep talking about this thing you care about, I'm going to delay this thing for REASONS. That'll show you, caring about things."

Thankfully, I have faith that DE isn't the kind of group that'd delay something out of SPITE for people who care.

And if they have said something about melee rework 'every single devstream' (Which I know is a boldfaced lie unless you count 'it happened' because that's all we got in the first one after the change), then kindly elucidate. What have they said? And vague nothings like 'it happened' and '3.0 will come eventually' don't count.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

If they explicitly choose to take longer because of people continuing to express opinions, then that's acting like a petulant child.

"How dare you continue to keep talking about this thing you care about, I'm going to delay this thing for REASONS. That'll show you, caring about things."

Thankfully, I have faith that DE isn't the kind of group that'd delay something out of SPITE for people who care.

And if they have said something about melee rework 'every single devstream' (Which I know is a boldfaced lie unless you count 'it happened' because that's all we got in the first one after the change), then kindly elucidate. What have they said? And vague nothings like 'it happened' and '3.0 will come eventually' don't count.

Or... maybe they're just ignoring people who are behaving like children. *blink*

Hey you were complaining that they haven't said anything.... now you're saying that what they've said doesn't count? lol 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Posted (edited)

Now back onto the subject of melee changes, I'd love to see these combos/mechanics/maneuvers added into the game. 

Excalibur wrestling/maneuvering with the dax soldiers, impaling them from behind, and throwing his nikana at one of them, and then pulling his exalted blade into another warrior?! F-k yes. 

giphy.gif

Sliding into a trip attack, then seamlessly chaining it with our powers? Oh yesss (and at the beginning of the video excalibur used a "finisher" on a tripped grineer, for a silent takedown)

giphy.gif

And then there's this awesome "bullet jump, aerial spin attack"?! WHY ISN'T THIS A THING ALREADY?!?! This is a true reason to get outraged right here.... The fact that it's taken this long and we still don't have a cool aerial spin attack....HECK

giphy.gif

 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:
9 hours ago, MBaldelli said:

I would say be patient, but that would be disingenuous.  No, instead be persistent, share your anger and impatience, and keep reminding DE they did bad until they either straighten it up or say...  as someone once said, "...we're not changing it." 

This is how you get them to ignore you, and take longer. 

Illogical.  Punishing the few that encourage action through dissatisfaction will get the majority amassed against you that much faster.  This did not work for DE during Vivergate

Trying to discourage those that encourage the expression of such dissatisfaction in the hopes that you can cultivate an environment of Tall Poppy Syndrome will get the masses to disagree with you (or even turn against you).  This has not worked in history either when dealing with civil disobedience for change and the general public.  

Might I suggest you read on Civil Disobedience before you judge my post as anything other than what it is: the encouragement of dissatisfaction in order to garner change in an otherwise half-thought out implementation.  

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I would still agree that at least maintaining a formal and self-controlled manner of dissatisfaction is important. Not only it should increase the chances of the complaints being taken seriously, because you don't come off just as a seething ball of rage, it also makes it harder to disqualify the complaints because of poor manners and crassness.

So it's important to state "I am absolutely livid by the current state of melee" and then outline the reasons (RMB and Autoblock, personally I'd add movement locks to that list even if they were stealth-introduced well before Phase 1), and restrain yourself from threats and insults.

 

But yes, the core is still that we must be persistent and continue to express the anger and frustration with the status quo and total silence in regards to the issues raised. The mega-thread must be kept alive and on top.

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40 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

I would still agree that at least maintaining a formal and self-controlled manner of dissatisfaction is important. Not only it should increase the chances of the complaints being taken seriously, because you don't come off just as a seething ball of rage, it also makes it harder to disqualify the complaints because of poor manners and crassness.

So it's important to state "I am absolutely livid by the current state of melee" and then outline the reasons (RMB and Autoblock, personally I'd add movement locks to that list even if they were stealth-introduced well before Phase 1), and restrain yourself from threats and insults.

 

But yes, the core is still that we must be persistent and continue to express the anger and frustration with the status quo and total silence in regards to the issues raised. The mega-thread must be kept alive and on top.

I concur. As annoyed as I am with the whole situation and frustrated at the lack of acknowledgement, gotta stay civil.

As much as I might wish to do otherwise. :I

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MBaldelli said:

Illogical.  Punishing the few that encourage action through dissatisfaction will get the majority amassed against you that much faster.  This did not work for DE during Vivergate

Trying to discourage those that encourage the expression of such dissatisfaction in the hopes that you can cultivate an environment of Tall Poppy Syndrome will get the masses to disagree with you (or even turn against you).  This has not worked in history either when dealing with civil disobedience for change and the general public.  

Might I suggest you read on Civil Disobedience before you judge my post as anything other than what it is: the encouragement of dissatisfaction in order to garner change in an otherwise half-thought out implementation.  

You're the one who was trying to "rally the troops lol. Maybe you should be more specific as to what you meant.

I've never said that we shouldn't voice our desires or our dissatisfaction. Just that we should be respectful, and not be nagging them. If we have no disagreements there, then let's please continue to focus on what's important:

Those sick melee maneuvers in the trailer. 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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6 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Or... maybe they're just ignoring people who are behaving like children. *blink*

Hey you were complaining that they haven't said anything.... now you're saying that what they've said doesn't count? lol 

Do you ignore a child because it's acting like a child? No, because that child might still have something valid to say. Like what, your opinion is invalidated because you get heated over things you care about?

Also, I don't get the impression that you're discussing this in good faith and are just having a go. Nobody here is saying to specifically get angry, but to be assertive over our complaints. But if we do stop 'nagging' them, then it'll convey the impression that we 'got used to it' and thus nothing needs to be changed. "You'll get used to it" Is what we were told, and it's false. If we stop talking, that's what they'll think.

So yes, we will nag. We'll do it in a civil manner, but nag we will.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-07-13 at 1:02 AM, DeltaPangaea said:

Do you ignore a child because it's acting like a child? No, because that child might still have something valid to say. Like what, your opinion is invalidated because you get heated over things you care about?

Also, I don't get the impression that you're discussing this in good faith and are just having a go. Nobody here is saying to specifically get angry, but to be assertive over our complaints. But if we do stop 'nagging' them, then it'll convey the impression that we 'got used to it' and thus nothing needs to be changed. "You'll get used to it" Is what we were told, and it's false. If we stop talking, that's what they'll think.

So yes, we will nag. We'll do it in a civil manner, but nag we will.

 If you're so adamant about fixing melee in a respectful and eloquent manner, then we have no disagreements. Do it already! And what I mean by stop nagging, is that you gotta give em some f-ing time! They just finished tennocon! They just announced a wukong melee 3.0 a few weeks ago! They just finished working on ropalolist and wisp! Yeah keep the forum thread alive, with a comment every few days or by adding *something new*  but you're still gonna sound childish if you're only nagging them "are we there yet?" Stop f-ing arguing with me for pointing out how impatient you're being, and just focus on WHAT ELSE you would like to see in melee. Give them MORE feedback, that isn't just the same repetitive thing.  You say that you think i'm only arguing, and yet I've actually been trying to post comments on ideas for melee 3.0... So what are you waiting for? Speak your own ideas already!

Quote

I concur. As annoyed as I am with the whole situation and frustrated at the lack of acknowledgement, gotta stay civil.

As much as I might wish to do otherwise. :I

What happened to this^?! Do it already then! 

 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I've never said that we shouldn't voice our desires or our dissatisfaction. Just that we should be respectful, and not be nagging them. If we have no disagreements there, then let's please continue to focus on what's important:

Those sick melee maneuvers in the trailer. 

There is no way in hell that I am going to fall for the "oh look, a shiny" trick. And if you're going on about trailer stuff, how come we still can't throw a Skana to a newly opened player like in the Vor's Prize trailer?

EDIT:

15 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

So are you saying that want them to stop working on EVERYTHING ELSE and only focus on melee...? Is that what you'd prefer? We're not just talking about shiny windows here btw... That's a gross diminishment of everything else they've been working on. Do you want them to drop everything else, and only focus on melee? 

I expect them to finish what they started. Replacing something functional with something unfinished and then abandoning it is extremely unprofessional.

Edited by DoomFruit
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

And if you're going on about trailer stuff, how come we still can't throw a Skana to a newly opened player like in the Vor's Prize trailer?

Yeah it would be nice to finally get that. I figured it hadn't been added due to coding/technology limitations but if they're expanding into 3.0 that's one of the things I'd love to see. 

4 hours ago, DoomFruit said:
20 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

So are you saying that want them to stop working on EVERYTHING ELSE and only focus on melee...? Is that what you'd prefer? We're not just talking about shiny windows here btw... That's a gross diminishment of everything else they've been working on. Do you want them to drop everything else, and only focus on melee? 

I expect them to finish what they started. Replacing something functional with something unfinished and then abandoning it is extremely unprofessional.

It would also be extremely unprofessional to "finish" something rushed. It wouldn't help them to declare they've finished something, if they have to keep going back to it and re-work/re-tweak it (like with ember's 4h rework). So no, they're actually being professional here; we should be happy they're taking their time if they're making any major changes. 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah it would be nice to finally get that. I figured it hadn't been added due to coding/technology limitations but if they're expanding into 3.0 that's one of the things I'd love to see. 

...Or maybe it's a trailer, and what you see in a trailer in no way represents the actual game. Something that's been true for a very long time now. You really ought to learn not to believe what hand-picked, hand-scripted animated scenes tell you.

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

It would also be extremely unprofessional to "finish" something rushed. It wouldn't help them to declare they've finished something, if they have to keep going back to it and re-work/re-tweak it (like with ember's 4h rework). So no, they're actually being professional here; we should be happy they're taking their time if they're making any major changes. 

No, they are not. They made something which is woefully incomplete and which is sorely lacking in functionality compared to what it replaced. The sensible, professional thing to do would have been to finish it up, make sure that it does not lack those bits of functionality, actually test the damn thing and then release it.

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3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

...Or maybe it's a trailer, and what you see in a trailer in no way represents the actual game. Something that's been true for a very long time now. You really ought to learn not to believe what hand-picked, hand-scripted animated scenes tell you. 

That falls under "false advertisement" because it creates expectation in the potential customers that are then unfulfilled when using the actual product.

While a certain degree of "hiperbole" is expected, that trailer publicizes what new players should be expecting from their Warframe experience, if the actual product differs enough won't they be justificably pissed off?

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

...Or maybe it's a trailer, and what you see in a trailer in no way represents the actual game. Something that's been true for a very long time now. You really ought to learn not to believe what hand-picked, hand-scripted animated scenes tell you.

No, they are not. They made something which is woefully incomplete and which is sorely lacking in functionality compared to what it replaced. The sensible, professional thing to do would have been to finish it up, make sure that it does not lack those bits of functionality, actually test the damn thing and then release it.

I'm gonna reply with what this guy said. (Also you need to stop talking about what's "woefully incomplete" or what the "professional" thing to do is, unless you're actually there working with them. All you're doing is just complaining here on the forums, instead of helping them with feedback for the new changes they're trying to give us.)

20 hours ago, Ikusias said:

That falls under "false advertisement" because it creates expectation in the potential customers that are then unfulfilled when using the actual product.

While a certain degree of "hiperbole" is expected, that trailer publicizes what new players should be expecting from their Warframe experience, if the actual product differs enough won't they be justificably pissed off?

^What Ikusias said^

and not just that but if you've noticed the comments of the director with mag's new power, and wukong's current stance attacks, it seems like DE is starting to look at changing all of the stance attacks (the director only commented on mag catching bullets... there were no comments about the melee maneuvers, so he must already know something about new melee changes) Wukong's attacks are starting to look shorter and more specialized. The only thing they really changed with Wukong's melee, were the combos and maneuvers, which makes me suspect that a large portion of melee 3.0 will be involving stance changes. 

Which btw, would take a really long time. 

SO if you guys want to provide constructive feedback, a good start would be to comment on what kind of new attacks/combos you'd like to see with your favorite weapons/stances.  (I mean alongside letting us switch between old melee, and new fast gunplay melee.... i do miss blocking while gliding, and I'm also with you guys on bringing back manual block)

Like maybe more types of creative takedowns, or weapon throws? Btw wukong does throw his staff in the air... You can pick it up by walking on it too. So it wouldn't surprise me if we can impale enemies by throwing a sword at them sometime soon.

BUT IT TAKES A LONG TIME. So please be patient 🙂

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Can you just make an option : Manual Block - Auto block ? PLEASE

Because this new ... switch with work better in conclave, doesn't mean in PvE it will be the same. Now I can't defend myself on the air that I need slowfal.

If I bring a primary and a melee in mission require carrier, I auto drop the cargo when I hold right mouse ....... WTF and the problem with gear using, press F to switch but no it doesn't. or 696969696 twisted issues ... getting use to this new mode does not worth with the issue it's come with.

This is unnecessary change, the old way are better in all.

 

Why would you made a melee combo with right mouse + E ? it will switch you back to gun and auto aim when you hold it ????

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Posted (edited)

shocked donald glover GIF

Oh god what happened, I dislike melee 2.9 as much as the next guy but raging at DE and bickering with each other is not going to help matters. Going out of control could end up getting our one major place of giving continual feedback on this mess of a rework shut down, DE and most companies that actively monitor forums will close threads if they stop being civil, I've seen it in these forums before. 

Right now I do agree that trying to pressure DE just after tennocon when all their staff are likely still handling questions and messages about the new announcements is not going to get anywhere. Keep up the feedback but maybe wait a couple of weeks before people start grabbing pitchforks again. 

Edited by YourFriendlyNoggin
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This thread never getting a civility warning is really just more evidence that nobody at DE is reading it :tongue:

Sheldon recently made (the closest thing in five months we've seen to) a statement about Melee 3.0 at the very end of a largely unrelated interview about DE's development practices:

Finally, how's progress on the melee refresh, and what are the next steps for that?

Sheldon Carter: It's going really well, the things that's we've done so far we're really happy with - we kind of hit a road block with the last couple of miles of it, and I think that has more to do with how much we turned all of our focus to Empyrean and TennoCon. I think once we come back from that, and once we figure out a couple of really key elements of how some of the other weapons are going to work... it's close. Sorry for the vagueness, it's one of those ones where each try in the last while we've said no to. So it's just going to require the guys working on it to go back to the drawing board one more time, but I guess we're halfway through the 3.0, we're 2.9!

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On 2019-07-12 at 1:29 PM, Maka.Bones said:

So are you saying that want them to stop working on EVERYTHING ELSE and only focus on melee...? Is that what you'd prefer? We're not just talking about shiny windows here btw... That's a gross diminishment of everything else they've been working on. Do you want them to drop everything else, and only focus on melee?

Yes they should drop everything and revert the melee changes and then continue. As it is now melee is total rubbish. All these fancy lights and and still no block glide. If block glide is pointless then so are fancy lights. I HATE gliding and looking though a sniper scope, total rubbish.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

Yes they should drop everything and revert the melee changes and then continue. As it is now melee is total rubbish. All these fancy lights and and still no block glide. If block glide is pointless then so are fancy lights. I HATE gliding and looking though a sniper scope, total rubbish.

Well sucks for you, but DE had to prepare for tennocon... which many people actually did enjoy (so I wouldn't call any of this rubbish). And now they're getting back on track with things, so you're still gonna have to wait a while. 🙂

It would be really beneficial for all of us to be patient, if we really want the devs to do a good job on melee. So please if you want melee to improve, be nice and be patient.

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Well sucks for you, but DE had to prepare for tennocon... which many people actually did enjoy (so I wouldn't call any of this rubbish). And now they're getting back on track with things, so you're still gonna have to wait a while. 🙂

It would be really beneficial for all of us to be patient, if we really want the devs to do a good job on melee. So please if you want melee to improve, be nice and be patient.

All DE had to do was add a Blockglide toggle, or hotfix the parkour issue that people are having. It's been many months already, they've/we've already been patient. I agree that toxicity is bad, name-calling devalues a debate, but understand that DE have been negligent on this matter.

Edited by Ofeban
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