How to Melee 3.0.

[3NVY5W0RD]

HOW TO MELEE 3.0

 

We are at dawn of Melee 3.0.but first let me express my gratitude for the effort you guys (Digital Extremes) put to make Melee great again. It was very fluid and robust but still got rooms for improvement and if your didn't mind hear me out here. Here my take. And you guys (Players) are welcome to critics and give opinion, but be mature responding, and maybe give your take also. lets start healthy discussion.  thx

P.S. English is not my native language so bear with me and sorry for wall of text in advance.

 

TL;DR Summaries

- Channeling and Charged attack merge.

- Re installation of manual block + Empowered 0.5 second block

- Importance of block combo and R as Heavy attack button when in melee mode

- Timed base holstering/weapon switch and Quick Melee and Quick Shoot actions

- Extras and conflicting factor in my concept vs current melee state

 

CHANNELING

When talking about channeling, some player consider is useful and some not. Its polarizing. 

 

Q: What make channeling awesome?

A: [Life Strike]. Am I right? Yeah and that sweet damage bonus also.

Q: What make channeling sucks?

A: Energy Thirsty and recently toggle to channel which you all guess it. Auto-Block + Toggle Channel = I need Energy Pizza ALOT.

I didn't know about you guys but personally I rather use my Warframe abilities then spend it on channeling to kill small group of enemies with melee unless you are too dependent on [Life Strike], Hey there a ton of other way to heal yourself already and while [Life Strike] Give a good chunk of healing the penalties you receive defeats the benefits you get in return.

Solution/Suggestion:-

- Combine current channeling into Charged Attack. Its like your regular charge attack but now its behave like [Energy Channel] mechanics. I called it Empowered Attacks. It behave slightly different from current charged attack. The energy will be deducted only once for each Empowered attack base on the Melee type. It work like this:

 

i. Channeling/Charged Attack (3 Stage of Charging) e.g [Tatsu]. 

Each stage of channeling (0.5 each stage) multiplies the damage output and energy cost. Example. Blue: 0, Purple: 20 and Red: 35

ii. Channeling/Charged Attack (Halfmoon Slash) [Nikana] 

Type and with [Excalibur] [Exalted Blade] The (Halfmoon Slash) will travel forward instead of Near AOE Slash.

 

As you can see, now you can hold and release when you see fit. You can also perform this whilst Walk/Sprinting. And whilst channeling, you gain damage reduction depend on weapon blocking percentage in 90 degree in front of you and the rest 270 degree will gain half of damage reduction. And also immune to Knockdown.

 

Conclusion:-

Other than it will be extremely cool befitting Ninja/Samurai theme of Warframe, Its also solve the energy hungry of the current channeling and also now you can free the button for channeling for other function which brought us to next point.

 

BLOCKING / PARRYING

I remember when [Mesa] 360 degree 4th nerf to the ground when it was consider "Lazy" and not require much player participation. You get what Im trying to say here. You guys contradicting yourselves now. Auto-blocking is not good for Warframe and its lazy. Manual Blocking must be implemented back if we talking about healthy future of Melee gameplay. I can see the attempt to make blocking useful and you guys almost did it with mods like [Guardian Derision] and [Electromagnetic Shielding] and melee such as [Vaykor Sydon] and [Ack and Brunt] which offer an entirely new alternative gameplay style that not about killing but otherwise . I enjoy it myself while it lasted and i believe some others too.

 

Q: What make manual blocking awesome?

A: Well, quite few actually. Im not even being bias here. Look. Better defense when aim gliding and plus you have clear view on where you wanna ground slam, Total control over mods like [Guardian Derision] and [Electromagnetic Shielding] and not auto trigger the effect with Auto-block, not to forget the block combos which contribute a lot to open up wider combo possibilities in future (Since we going to ditching out the "PAUSE" combos)  and well...this one is personal favorite...easy back flips 😄 

Q: What make manual Blocking sucks?

A: Seriously? Ok ok I get it, I know not all people like hold down a button forever to perma block. Hey an option for toggle to block will be handy. But current auto-block is as bad as well since you will spend all your time on meleeing(attacking) and that 45 degree nerf. Nobody going to stand still and wait for auto-block and to make things worse it will disrupt charge attacks

 

Solution/Suggestion:-

- Encourage player to become more active when blocking with new mechanics implementation like perfectly timed blocking bonus or I called it Empowered Block like what they have in God of War franchise and Devil May Cry franchise. Yes it require timing and No it is not 1 sec block, it just 0.5 Sec Empowered Block and after that it just become regular block. This system reward player who want to participate on the Melee combat by giving them a set of of Active Melee maneuver/Counter-attack and Passive Buff to weapons . For example Active Melee maneuver/Counter-attack can give AOE Stunt on successful Empowered Block. Some Melee Give Passive Buff to either next Empowered Attack Damage or Bonus Damage to Primary and Secondary weapons for certain amount of time.

i. Royal Guard gameplay from Devil May Cry 5

 

ii. Golden Fleece gameplay from God of War 2

 

Conclusion:

This will entice player to participate more in more active manner and willingly to explore the depth of melee combat in Warframe with its high risk high reward gameplay even with squishier Warframes. Might look pointless in this kind of Horde shooter kind of game but because weapon like [Vaykor Sydon] exist proves even DE acknowledge this kind of gameplay and just like aforementioned point that I made before that blocking also contribute to simplification of Combo system now that it still "Pause Combos" and we shall continue to next point to explain it further why.

 

COMBO

Melee combo Is a determining factor on what make a certain melee great. Take Heavy Blades with [Tempo Royale] Stance, a devastating AOE beast. Without it. It was more like a large hunk of Iron (no pun intended). Im not going to touch about Pause Combo in this since its confirmed by DE that it will gone in 3.0. So im going to talk about post melee 3.0. Lets take current combo system for example. Without Block+E and R as heavy melee button it will become as simple as

 

E+E+E+E

A or D or W+E+E+E+E

S+E+E+E+E

Hold E

Directional key+Ctrl+E 

Midair E

 

This prove problematic as previously we got 4 E Combos now down to 2 only. You can already see the absence Block (RMB) narrows the combo even further. 

 

 

Solution/Suggestion:-

1. Implementation of R (Reload button) when in melee mode as Heavy Attack button (not charge attack but a heavy attack, its different). Imagine using [Obex] , E is for fist combo and R is for Kick combo

2. All pause combos now can be activated with directional key+RMB (Block) and current Block combo remain the same but without directional key.

3. Passive Empowered Attack corresponding to Combo counter (Combo changes as combo counter goes up). I believe DE mention something about implementation of Devil Trigger like mechanic. So in case that is true then Combo counter will function as "Rage" that will augment the combos.

 

Conclusion:-

DE kinda have a lot on their hands now. I cant expect them to adopt this Idea but this is my take on how to diversifies and deepen the learning curve on melee in Warframe. Now i done with this lets talk about quick actions and holstering.

 

QUICK ACTIONS AND HOLSTERING

Although not loudest amongst all, the voices of those who cries from the feedback from both Warframe Redit and forums can be heard and screaming to bring back the Quick Melee. While I love the current system but I can see the appeal of Quick Melee.

Q: What make Quick Melee awesome?

A: Fast, Quick,Instant,not slow and do I need to say more.

Q: What make Quick Melee sucks?

A: I don't have and idea at all.

 

Solution/Suggestion:-

- Ok firstly why did call it Quick Action not Quick Melee specifically. My answer is the action involve not only Quick Melee but also Quick Shoot. I call it Actions Commitment (Ok that was bad name) but what it does is:

i. When in shooting mode; Full melee mode only occur when player meleeing more than 1.5 sec or when player initiate Charged Attacks. Quick tap on E will not trigger full melee mode.

ii. When in meleeing mode; Full shoot mode only occur when player shoot more that 1.5 sec or when player hold down LMB. Quick tap on LMB will not trigger full shooting mode. Not all weapon is viable for this Quick Shoot action. Viable weapons gonna be only non-scope, non charge individual fire weapons like [Vasto Prime][Tigris][Arca Plasmor][Kulstar] , and many which falls in this group of weapon. 

 

Conclusion:-

With this, the gun sword play just become extra flexible like how Dual wield Gun+Glaive offer new alternative gameplay. I didn't know what else to say, but this is the only viable solution that offers best of both world without sacrificing more button for console players whilst offering new kind playstyle.

 

EXTRAS

We almost there guys, if you read this far, thx so much. Doesn't matter you agree or not. Thx for reading this confession of Ideas of mine. Now to fix few flaws that my conflicting with my concept. 

Im always keep in mind to give best solution for both console and PC players.

 

- Dual wield Glaive+Gun, Glaive detonation: To detonate the Glaive, Simply tap on E again after Glaive is thrown.

- Gunblades Charge/Empowered Attack conflict. For simple melee combo/ shoot just tap(or hold) E or R perhaps. But to execute the Empowered Charged Attack, just hold down RMB+(Hold)E which will fire massive 180 degree across 3 meter flak cannon and deadly knockback.

 

Now to my extra idea

- Ability to dual wield Gun+Shield

- More mods for blocking bonuses.

- Ability to equip Arcanes on Melee (non zaws)

- Gun Accessories 😛 like Sugatras for guns 😄

 

Ok that the ends my Wall of text. Have happy day. Thanks 😄

Edited March 31, 2019 by 3NVY5W0RD
Simplification

[KiteoHatto]

As much as DE is trying to make melee good....I think the biggest drawback are the controls. By that I mean we have to time our combos with E...mostly.

Would be much more intuitive if we had the older system with "hard" weapon switch and you could chain combos with just your mouse.

Left click would be light attacks.

Right click would be heavy attacks.

You could hold left click to charge light attacks.

You can hold right click to charge heavy attacks.

And due to this system you can just apply the right attacks when you want to, not whatever the sequence the stance tells you.

 

If I remember right, dragon's dogma had a REALLY fun combat system. You could charge any skill(attack) for more aoe and damage.

 

 

 

Channeling is just an extra gimmick which complicates control scheme of things for the sake of having it in the game.

[3NVY5W0RD]

Ahh Dragon Dogma. memories....Yea its a good game. 😄

[3NVY5W0RD]

I will keep this thread updated. Maybe group up all of thread with same idea. 

[ExcaliburUmbra]

The main con for quick melee (for me at least) was that you didn’t have access to the stance specific damage/attack modifiers. Certain (usually more modern) stances had their own quick melee combo, but these new quick melee combinations were often based off of the standard combo for the stance and thus included finishers and pauses that made them awkward to use in comparison.

One aspect of Melee 3.0 I hope DE looks at would be finishers/stealth kills. Most of the stealth kill animations are far too lengthy to be actually useful, and many finishers in general are awkwardly animated with poorly timed enemy deaths relative to the animation. Ideally stealth kill animations should be swift and brutal. Save overly flamboyant stuff for ground and frontal finishers or something.

EDIT: Also if you want DE to actually see this, might want to post it in Feedback rather then General Discussion.

Edited March 29, 2019 by OmegaZero

[Test-995]

1. remove stance

[aswitz87]

One thing they could do is keep the system in place for consoles (lack of buttons on controllers was stated to be one reason for the simplification), but add some options for those who want manual blocking.  

Myself for example, I have a couple free buttons on my mouse and could easily use one for blocking.  Again though, keep it optional for those still using two button mice.

[YazMatazO]

I am still leaning towards a hard switch button. Maybe have a quick melee with which you can do slam attacks, but that's about it. Need more melee... in the melee. 

[chainchompguy3]

Personally, I've interpreted the Push-back on the removal of Quick-melee to be almost entirely due to the fact that many people just want a quick, simple combo that they can rely upon to do the same thing every time.

Polearm quick melee was Spinning downward slashes, over and over again.

Whereas the Full-combo interrupts that spinning with a stop-in-place horizontal slash.

So on, and so forth, etc.

 

So hopefully, once combos get looked at in melee 3.0-phase 2, we'll see this group's demands met in the form of reliable combos.

 

 

As for my own opinions:

 

I haven't ever liked spending energy on melee attacks, and I doubt I'll like it in the future.

But I do like charge attacks (Well, I would, if their current version wasn't so completely lacking in mobility).

So I personally wouldn't like the combination of the two mechanics: it'd ruin a mechanic I like by adding one that I didn't.

However, if there were some degree of control to it, say that the charge attack only used energy if charged for longer than 1.5sec, then maybe I could accept it, as I could just avoid using it.

But personally, I'd just rather [Life strike] get changed to no longer be tied to channeling, and then ditch the system.

 

I also haven't every really seen the need for a highly interactive blocking system in Warframe. As it becomes more and more horde-shooter-y, it becomes less and less practical to block damage from a single direction.

So personally, I quite celebrated the removal of the block key, hoping that it will be used for much more worthwhile features in the future.

But I do understand the grievances that other players have put forward in regards to its implementation.

1. If you want a broad-view aim-glide, you are forced to waste a mod slot for [Broad eye], [Overview], or [Air Recon].
2. The current means of triggering Block related mods ([Guardian Derision], etc.) is unreasonable.

Personally, I would hope these specific issues, (And whatever ones I inevitably missed), be targeted for fixing, rather than bringing back what I see as an obsolete system.

I'd hope #2 would be easily resolved enough if it could just be changed to "While melee is out", but I'm not sure how we/DE wants to balance that.

 

 

[3NVY5W0RD]

3 hours ago, OmegaZero said:

EDIT: Also if you want DE to actually see this, might want to post it in Feedback rather then General Discussion.

+1 Thx for suggestion. Hope it doesn't count as spam. 😛

[3NVY5W0RD]

1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

However, if there were some degree of control to it, say that the charge attack only used energy if charged for longer than 1.5sec, then maybe I could accept it, as I could just avoid using it.

Thx for reading this long post. Yea that just how it work. 

Initial 1.5 sec charge dint cost energy

Beyond that only then when the melee started to glow like current channeling thus energy will be consump

[0_The_F00l]

I had made a suggestion for a transition state option when switching between melee and gun, 

This needed to be based on some context sensitivity and some practice. 

I will add it to this comment when I find it. 

[AshenHaze]

Unfortunately, we won't be able to see any more key additions to our maps simply because the console version won't have it and ThEy'Ll WaNt iT tO Be FaIr. (Translation: They dont' want to code extra for the platform they started on because of the platforms they want to add on).

I do like the idea of adding R to melee attacks but it does have one small issue and that's with the combined arms. Right now it's Glaive + Single Secondary. IIRC they were going to look into Any Single Secondary + Any Single Melee. Sword in one hand, gun in the other. Perfect mix of everything. You got your range, you got your melee. Switching R to a heavy attack would cause a bit of problems here. If they're going to continue using...for lack of better terms..."space magic" to have people swap immediately from melee and ranged then it might still be a viable option.

Honestly though I personally think that the channeling button should be removed and instead of channeling you do a heavy attack using the middle button, work it so that it acts as a combo-finisher for all the existing combo moves and provides a fine finish. One combo might have a multi-hit heavy attack, another combo might have a slam heavy attack, the last combo would be your run-of-the-mill "superhit" heavy attack. It would be a heck of a lot easier to calculate and turn all of those old lovable channeling mods into a focused 'super-hit'. (Example, Life strike now can't just be activated whenever, you have to activate a combo then finish it off with middle-mouse button as a combo finisher) 

As a compromise, people are PO'd the most about channeling because it uses energy. Why not have the "combo finisher" use stacks of combo meter instead? Lets say to have a quick finisher you need your first stack, the 1.5 combo meter or so. Then it becomes a risk vs reward of building up a super high combo meter to unleash a stupidly insanely powerful attack at the very end or to break it up more often and have a more 'long term' attack plan. As another caveat, i think the combo meter should inherently be longer in lieu of the idea.

Thoughts?

[xdeathhungerx]

I fixed all my melee 2.999 bugs by removing my primary and secondary weapons. No dropping mobile defense module, no wondering if my syndicate proc will work, my manual block button is back had to remap because it merged with aim, my block weapon vaykor sydon's passive works again, I'm in control of my guardian derision and electromagnetic shielding mods. Ditch the guns and get melee 2 back... Until the next phase.

[Jasonamous]

[Life Strike] is still one of the most important mods for a lot of melee builds and I really hope they can rework it to be amazing alongside [Healing Return].

[3NVY5W0RD]

On 2019-03-30 at 1:42 AM, xdeathhungerx said:

I fixed all my melee 2.999 bugs by removing my primary and secondary weapons. No dropping mobile defense module, no wondering if my syndicate proc will work, my manual block button is back had to remap because it merged with aim, my block weapon vaykor sydon's passive works again, I'm in control of my guardian derision and electromagnetic shielding mods. Ditch the guns and get melee 2 back... Until the next phase.

Exactly what im doing now m8. Glad I have a comrade 😄

[(PSN)watt4hem]

Only ever legit use channeling for stealth since you one shot anything anyways and it dispose of the corpse instantly. Other cases are when i play eq nekros or tank trinity, for fun.

[HugintheCrow]

[(PSN)Zero_029]

Honestly all DE needs to do is:

1. Add in enemy stagger (as in every melee hit interrupts, pushes back, & staggers enemies). This would dramatically make melee combat more fun. Obviously heavier units wouldn't be so easy to stagger.

2. Add in aerial combos & the ability to deliberately knock enemies into the air & combo them from there.

Adds a new level of depth, CC, & mixing things up.

3. Make each weapon have: 1 Simple Ground combo, 1 Simply Air Combo, 1 Medium Ground, 1 Medium Air, 1 Advanced Ground, 1 Advanced Air

K.I.S.S (Keep it simple stupid) is a very wise saying. A lot of feedback I've seen boils down to many players missing the simpler combos. The above gives all players options.

4. Remove Channeling altogether, replace it with player triggered finishers.

Channeling as a toggle is bad. The energy requirements just don't work with that. If instead players could use that "button" to execute an execution/finisher then many channeling abilities could be change/revolve around that.

Ex: Finisher kills returns 50% of Max HPLife 

Most folks I know, used channeling in short spurts just for major damage, normally on finishers or for a wipe sweeps. Allowing players to do single target & group executions.

For this example (I'm on console) when in melee the Square button isn't used unless something is being held. Why not make that the finisher button? It isn't out of place/awkward, additionally it would allow players a second button to use at the end of combos that triggers an instant finisher attack for mega damage. (Possibly required to Stagger heavy enemies.)

4. Jump, Dodge, & Roll Cancels

These need to be a thing. Period. Most of the feedback I've seen is that now players get locked into Warframes at times badly over animated combos. IE: Combo A ends by making me leap across the entire map. Or Combo D makes me stand in place and smash the ground for 4 seconds.

Yes I realize many of my suggestions sound DMC inspired. But let's be honest DE has admitted DMC inspired Warframe's melee combat. Well if you're going to use that system you can't half ass it. You have to embrace it & go all in.

[3NVY5W0RD]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

4. Jump, Dodge, & Roll Cancels

These need to be a thing. Period. Most of the feedback I've seen is that now players get locked into Warframes at times badly over animated combos. IE: Combo A ends by making me leap across the entire map. Or Combo D makes me stand in place and smash the ground for 4 seconds.

We need this badly TBH. This also known as "Frame-Canceling". I want to able to control my combo precisely

[BahamutKaiser]

I like the idea of using the Reload key as the heavy attack rather than relying on E for everything. Simply having another key multiplies the combo variation dramatically.

I don't agree with removing auto blocking, this game is a hoard shooter, so it doesn't make sense to manually block. I did like the weapon glide though, I think aim glide should only deploy if you switch weapons with a shot or weapon switch. And additional blocking would be okay, for massive damage reduction, but manual blocking shouldn't be needed to toggle the current mods, or at least those mods should have dual effects that apply depending on whether you manually block or auto block. 

Beyond that, I don't want block combos, at least not the current ones, if manual block comes back it should be a significant action on its own something effective with greater protection angles and amounts and reflected damage, even block gliding.

Furthermore, the block amount, angle, and reflection variation should be more explicit in the weapon stats, that way players can choose melee weapons not based just on damage and existing features, but on defense which might be more attractive to fragile frames who attack with frame abilities. Mods could even be added to boost melee weapon defense rather than damage. 

I like the Aerial Combos even more, the one thing that makes combos in this game feel restricted as compared to popular thrashing games is the absence of aerial action, it's strange that a game with more aerial mobility than most, more ground mobility than most beside, has dinky aerial combos.

With a reverse movement launching attack added to every weapon, players could throw enemies into the air efficiently, then follow up with a simple two or three action attack (actual hits landed don't need to directly correspond with input entry). Launching attacks can consist of two main parts, the attack that launched the foe, then a pursuing attack that spends your bullet jump launching yourself straight up at the same distance as your bullet jump (thus expending that jump action) both the foe and self launching attacks could travel further based on your bullet jump mods. The foes you launch could travel in an arch that would follow your expected path if you immediately pursue them, then the aerial combo can end with a downward throwing attack which you could immediately follow with a downward slam. 

Beyond that, I feel a great deal could be done to improve player comfort while playing. The correlation between melee attack speed and hand stress is concerning. I remember playing excalibur when I first started, and I ended up asking if there were macros for melee attacking because the hand stress is uncomfortable. I eventually just avoided melee attacking. Pause combos should be removed from the game regardless, so the fact that they get muddled with attack speed isn't significant, but there are two major improvements I'd like to see to reduce hand stress, well actually three. 

Attack speed should simply be replaced with another modifier, call it pulsing or friction. It's just another modifier that works on melee attacks the same way multishot works on guns, more damage and a chance to duplicate status procs. The biggest drawback to this is obviously the movement combos players sometimes rely on, but melee attacks shouldn't be an escape for Nyx to run around, or other combos can come along to replace that. 

The second attack speed solution which I'd like to pair with the first is key holding. This almost requires an additional melee attack key, so the use of the reload key for heavy attacks is really attractive. Charged attacks could be done with the reload key or other ways, but even if it replaced charge attack, it would be worth it to gain a continuous attack by simply holding down E.

There's no need to damage the hand health of thousands of gamers by making them spam melee attacks. Holding the key could produce a continuous attack that does not interact with movement, that way mobility frames can move freely and focus on steering and positioning while holding down the attack key. The damage could be reduced, but since players already spam slide attack for maximum movement and damage, I don't think a good arguement can be made for preserving effort. Spamming attacks as a whole is just bad for your hand, I don't even think sliding attacks should exist, high mobility sweeping attacks shouldn't also have the best damage and reach, and crouching plus sliding chords could be replaced with launching attacks, negating the need for another key. Slide is also the way you activate bullet jump, so having it activate launch attacks would be natural. (I don't feel bad for Nehza or slide attack travelers, it's a worthwhile sacrifice).

The sweeping attacks of maiming strike could be replaced as a combo for whips (since that's what players naturally default to), and it could become a better looking whirling attack that includes more entertaining sweeps while also reducing hand stress and improving steering.

I like the weapon pairing too. It would be nice if all single handed melee weapons could all be paired with single handed secondary weapons. Some hidden combo effects could be added to shoot a few shots while attacking with the single hand daggers and such, while gaining the large defensive boons of shields with single pistols would help those pistols compete, again for fragile frames, even going as far as employing the manual block benefits while aiming, much like a shield Grineer.

Edited May 13, 2019 by BahamutKaiser
Corrected mobile swipe "corrections"

[Radagosh]

we'll get another open world before we get actual melee3.0 changes. It's just like dmg2.0, kingpin, alliance conflicts2.0 and raids2.0, they start with great ideas and then can't deliver due to them not agreeing on the smaller details.

IMO they should first bring out an actual product (or at least a showcase in a devstream) before we go and criticize it, adding our own ideas That's why I posted that pic, the thread was dead, just like DE's (showcased) development of melee3.0.

[spirit_of_76]

On 2019-03-28 at 7:58 AM, KiteoHatto said:

Left click would be light attacks.

Right click would be heavy attacks.

You could hold left click to charge light attacks.

You can hold right click to charge heavy attacks.

you could still do some of this however they need to let the people that have the extra button room have a dedicated block/weapon swap key.  most of the problem right now is that the new system is only 80% done and is still missing the icing, candles, and any garnish that they would normally add.  while I am enjoying the instant swap and better combo systems they need to do a few things.  
1. give more control option
2. enable block on ADS while in melee/ block as alt fire while in melee
3. channeled blocking should be removed or part of the options,  
4. give mods that improve auto block or change the blocking animations/ detection. 
5. finish the melee 3.0 as it is we need the full system to judge what it will be not the parbaked cake that we have now.  (yes you can eat it but no it is not done it however can be frozen and finished another day without any massive side effects)