Passive Health Regen

[Gawizard]

all i did was break boxes and killed enemies.

The new player experience isnt hard, youre out of touch.

[MJ12]

8 minutes ago, Gawizard said:

all i did was break boxes and killed enemies.

The new player experience isnt hard, youre out of touch.

So your argument is that instead, a single health restore takes 33% of the credits gained in a mission if you go and break lots of boxes and kill lots of enemies, slowing down mission completion. This is literally an irrelevant nitpick because the point of the argument is that health restores cost a ridiculous amount of resources for a one-use item that doesn't actually do all that much. And I notice that yet again, you're disingenuously conflating "difficulty" and "frustration" as if they were the same thing.

24 minutes ago, Gawizard said:

This is just wrong, have you done an eidolon hunt?
energy pads in end game content can mean the difference between one shotting the last limb and dying because chroma's vex armour ran out. Honestly you seen to be uneducated about a game you've been playing for what i assume more than 2 years.

Yes, I've done plenty of eidolon hunts and I have never been in the situation where I needed an energy pizza because it turns out that they're not actually that hard if you have a competent premade team and maybe don't tank your Chroma's efficiency to nothing. Maybe you should just... git gud?

What's good for the goose, after all, is good for the gander.

Edited April 11, 2019 by MJ12

[Gawizard]

11 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

So your argument is that instead, a single health restore takes 33% of the credits gained in a mission if you go and break lots of boxes and kill lots of enemies, slowing down mission completion. This is literally an irrelevant nitpick. And I notice that yet again, you're disingenuously conflating "difficulty" and "frustration" as if they were the same thing.

1) That was 1 mission, unless a player is playing 1 mission and expect to craft their new boltor, their credit gain  and resource gain would be leagues higher than this.
2) Slowing down mission completion? Have you ever played with lower ranked players? Most of the lower ranks i meet on Jupiter or phobos are busy looking around smashing crates while im on the extraction point.
3) The mission i played was Mantle, a capture mission where only lancers and butchers spawn, your only major threat is a group of enemies (which i rarely encountered) and then you can just use abilities to get that done.
4)Yeah i understand that pre planned groups are better than random pubs, but im catering for the lone player in a group that joins a random squad. Chances are if you have friends that play the game, you wont be going down or be on your last revive unless you literally dont mod anything when you're on like ceres.

again, your points would make sense if mantle had enemies that would oneshot you or if the solar rail spectre required you to rank your wf to lvl 30 or play 20 minutes of survival the most difficult thing you have to do is probably kill eximus enemies.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Gawizard

[MJ12]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)jamdjedi said:

perhaps the OP is taking this game too seriously? So what if you faceplant a few times?  Shoot I STILL DO and laugh  while I do so! failure isn't the end it's how you learn from said failure that builds character and experience. If by MR2-3 you are doing the same things you did in the first few days of your initial Warframe life then you haven't learned anything. If you take the time to break open every chest, open every green door in each mission, you have more than enough RNG health drops. I just think he wants to face stomp everything from minute 1 RAWR!  

Oh hey, yet another disingenuous conflation of difficulty and frustration. And the rest of your post is a gigantic non sequitur and a transparent deflection from the fact that literally nobody is suggesting that this will somehow make the game trivial, because a few health per second is literally irrelevant when player power becomes high enough that the game becomes "too easy" or whatever the latest complaint is.

Also, I like the whole "it's how you learn from said failure that builds character and experience" phrase because as  everyone else noted, the lack of early non-consumable healing literally teaches you how to play the game all wrong. It teaches you that running away from combat so your shields can regenerate is good, when in reality in the later-game you get tools like Life Strike, Inaros's heal-on-finisher, Hildryn's Pillage, Saryn's regenerative molt, and more that make it so that you can, and should, stay stuck into fights. It teaches you to mod for shields when in the late game, scaling enemy damage means that outside of Hildryn who has something like 3 times the base shields of the next most heavily shielded Warframe, shield modding is suboptimal. It teaches you to spend extensive amounts of time scouring missions for the minimal drops that come from lockers and containers when rewards in Warframe are almost always ridiculously backloaded.

In other words, everything it teaches you is wrong.

 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

For what they do, I'd expect early health restores to be sold for paltry credits (no more than 500 each, and that's pushing it) on the market like scanners. They're not going to "save you" in a really dangerous situation, but they can keep you going when slashes and toxins from the last battle have left you at double digit health, and you're half way through the mission.

Back then, I'd certainly go opening every locker, cracking every chest, hoping upon hopes for either health or energy, and mostly finding credits and ammo (playing melee, the ammo was glittery junk).

Single deaths here and there due to these situations weren't horribad, but they were demoralizing and felt out of my control (so few real options)... but they cost in lost affinity, and that was what I was going for more than mission completion, though both were generally the case while moving through the star chart.

All my resources were going to buying and crafting new weapons (without plat early on, I didn't have slots to get more than 4 frames for most of my first year - Excalibur, Rhino, Oberon, and Frost), so my ranking up was limited to junk guns that I'd level and sell off to make room for the next) 25k credits for a gun, and then crafting costs kept me perpetually seeking Alerts for credits. I'd never have poured them into consumables that had no lasting value to me.

So, yeah, passive regen in a few cases would make the new player experience more "nice" and less "frustrating"... but not game breaking...

Edited April 11, 2019 by (PS4)AyinDygra

[Gawizard]

Say, when you are in kindergarden, are you taught about algebra or what elements make up salt?
its the same principle here, youre not being taught how to be the best you can be, youre being taught to survive at your level, as you progress you learn and acquire new weapons and mods. And dont forget, theres a chat in game where players can ask for help. I really dont know why youre making this seem like detrimental to later gameplay. "Using consumables is bad" but its an option and a feature thats present in alot of quests and some gameplay events (formorian fleet and the razorback). The point im taking from you is that you want players to play in one way and that one way only because its the only way to play the game.

[BiancaRoughfin]

On 2019-04-08 at 4:57 PM, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

We've been in a situation like this before: We're playing with a squishy Warframe (Mag, Nyx, etc) and just got done clearing out a hoard of enemies. You're now low on health and not having any luck getting health orbs; so now you're playing more cautiously. Everything is going fine until a stray Toxin or Slash proc hits you. Your health counts down: 10, 4, 2, DEAD. If only you had on a Rejuvenation aura.

If only you had Team Heal packs...

If only you knew how to play with Vazarin...

Considering Toxic and Slash procs deal far more damage than you would regenerate with a passive healing, adding one to the game would make no difference.

[Gawizard]

Btw [Rejuvination] exists
that hasnt saved my life as yet, and i bought saryn prime during mid game for 60 plat.

 

[(PSN)jamdjedi]

53 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

Oh hey, yet another disingenuous conflation of difficulty and frustration. And the rest of your post is a gigantic non sequitur and a transparent deflection from the fact that literally nobody is suggesting that this will somehow make the game trivial, because a few health per second is literally irrelevant when player power becomes high enough that the game becomes "too easy" or whatever the latest complaint is.

Also, I like the whole "it's how you learn from said failure that builds character and experience" phrase because as  everyone else noted, the lack of early non-consumable healing literally teaches you how to play the game all wrong. It teaches you that running away from combat so your shields can regenerate is good, when in reality in the later-game you get tools like Life Strike, Inaros's heal-on-finisher, Hildryn's Pillage, Saryn's regenerative molt, and more that make it so that you can, and should, stay stuck into fights. It teaches you to mod for shields when in the late game, scaling enemy damage means that outside of Hildryn who has something like 3 times the base shields of the next most heavily shielded Warframe, shield modding is suboptimal. It teaches you to spend extensive amounts of time scouring missions for the minimal drops that come from lockers and containers when rewards in Warframe are almost always ridiculously backloaded.

In other words, everything it teaches you is wrong.

 

ahhh I got it now! so when fighting level 120+ enemies we aren't supposed to hide when shield gated? We are expected to own the few frames that can face tank said enemies? So what you're saying is make the beginning mimic end game when you have end game Warframes and end game mods/builds? End game weapons and are MR12+??!! 

What if said player does not have Hildryn-purchase only ATM- Nidus (tough farm), Inaros ONLY from a Baron mission that you can ONLY get by having his credits?  

 

you are making my point for me

Edited April 11, 2019 by (PS4)jamdjedi

[Xanthropod]

Passive health regen, yeah, no. Why?

1. Rejuvination exists
2. If you wanted to use passive healh regen to heal yourself it would take so much more time than just finishing the mission, this is why we have shields so that we can take some damage
3. Even if you die, EVEN if you die, which is quite hard to do as a brand new player in those lvl 1-5 missions, you can still revive yourself 4 times
4. If you want healing in mid/late game there are better options: Vazarin's Protective Dash, Squad Health Restore, abilities such as Trinity's Blessing
5. If you are constantly low on health maybe it's time for you to finally open arsenal and put on some mods such as VItality

My opinion: You don't need any sort of healing at the lower levels and if you want healing at the higher levels there are much better options.
Low healing rate would be useless, high healing rate would make certain frames useless (or at least less useful), medium healing rate would do one or the other depending on the situation.

[MJ12]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)jamdjedi said:

ahhh I got it now! so when fighting level 120+ enemies we aren't supposed to hide when shield gated? We are expected to own the few frames that can face tank said enemies? So what you're saying is make the beginning mimic end game when you have end game Warframes and end game mods/builds? what if said player does not have Hildryn-purchase only ATM- Nidus (tough farm), Inaros ONLY from a Baron mission that you can ONLY get by having his credits? 

...no, that's not what I'm saying, so stop trying to make a strawman.

The point is that endgame missions do not encourage hiding because they're generally endless missions with constant non-linear spawning (so trying to break off and hide often gets you shot in the butt instead), almost all the endgame capable Warframes are more survivable if you mod for health rather than shields (so modding for shields, which the early game teaches you is good, is actually a bad decision), you are given a large toolkit for recovering health or surviving death, several of which work best when you're stuck in (so breaking off when at low health rather than pressing the attack is often a bad decision), and CC/high multiple target damage/damage reduction are much better at mitigating damage (so taking cover is less useful and aggressive gameplay is more rewarding). In other words, the habits that the early game teaches are bad in the late game, and need to be unlearned.

I want the early game to be at least somewhat representative of the late game in terms of pacing and , which is hardly unreasonable. Yes, plenty of videogames unlock later abilities over time, but in good Metroidvanias and the like (probably the best examples of late-game characters being ludicrously different from early game ones) these abilities don't make you unlearn prior habits-instead, they just build onto prior capabilities in a pretty straightforward way.

Imagine if Doom 2016 started off as a Rainbow Six-like tactical shooter with low-TTK enemies on both your side and the enemy side, minimal mobility, and inaccurate weapons that forced you to stay still and aim down sights, then randomly in the middle of the game became the game we actually got, glory kills and all. I suspect this would lead a lot of players to bounce off of it, because it makes nobody happy. The people who like the early gameplay will end up bouncing off the game when the transition happens, while the people who like the later gameplay will often bounce off the completely different playstyle required at the start.

1 hour ago, Gawizard said:

Say, when you are in kindergarden, are you taught about algebra or what elements make up salt?
its the same principle here, youre not being taught how to be the best you can be, youre being taught to survive at your level, as you progress you learn and acquire new weapons and mods. And dont forget, theres a chat in game where players can ask for help. I really dont know why youre making this seem like detrimental to later gameplay. "Using consumables is bad" but its an option and a feature thats present in alot of quests and some gameplay events (formorian fleet and the razorback). The point im taking from you is that you want players to play in one way and that one way only because its the only way to play the game.

Kindergarten also doesn't teach people the exact opposite of how to succeed later in life. It doesn't purposely teach you how to tie your shoelaces and use a scissor wrong, and if it did, people would rightfully complain because parents wouldn't want their kids learning bad habits that they later need to unlearn.

Do you not understand how having the early game play completely differently from the late game is actually bad game design? This isn't the late game opening up more interesting build possibilities and useful tools but building onto the same things you learn from the early game regarding what stats are useful, what stats aren't, and how rare/common health/energy restoration is. This is the early game giving you a false impression of scarcity that isn't actually true, teaching you the wrong lessons about damage avoidance, consumable use, enemy threat level, and how aggressively you should be playing. This is detrimental to later gameplay because it gives players wrong information and therefore they make incorrect decisions based on that information, and moreover, it means that a lot of the things you learn about how aggressively you should play and how you should mod are wrong and need to be unlearned when you go into later content.

Razorback/Formorian missions are yet another disingenuous comparison because they're both not early-game events and the credit cost of accessing them is trivial for anyone who can reasonably get the rewards from them, they require the consumable to access in the first place and will only ever consume 1 consumable per attempt, and they give extremely high rewards in return for being locked behind a consumable. Both of them reward a hundred thousand credits for 1 run of Fomorian if you do it right (and you can easily end up inadvertently being carried through it by one guy) or 3 runs of Razorback, plus a very valuable Catalyst.

Edited April 11, 2019 by MJ12

[Gawizard]

By your logic, Children who were taught that santa claus was real are still writing letters to this day hoping for toys and gifts. Understand how i see your points? I just constantly hear about "The player will learn wrong things that will contribute to bad gameplay". I recently suggested that recovery missions to be integrated into regular gameplay so if you failed the mission, youd get a chance on getting back your stuff. A few minutes later, a user told me why it wouldnt be good for the game. "You've lost the loot since you've failed the mission" from then it made sense, since youll have that one careless person playing though games who just got like 6 rare mods and would just fail the mission just to get back everything in a free (second chance) mission. Now would that be considered good gameplay? Purposely failing a mission to get their 'earned' loot would have been bad gameplay if i can tell. Modding for shield capacity isnt bad game play, its inefficient game play, Yes youre technically surviving longer, but through trial and error, the game mechanics for each game state (mid and late game) would be taught. You cant expect to do everything perfect. I didnt learn calculus in a day  and so will a new player wouldnt know how to play at at the best in 3 - 5 minutes of gameplay. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Gawizard

[Elyi]

On 2019-04-08 at 2:57 PM, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

We've been in a situation like this before: We're playing with a squishy Warframe (Mag, Nyx, etc) and just got done clearing out a hoard of enemies. You're now low on health and not having any luck getting health orbs; so now you're playing more cautiously. Everything is going fine until a stray Toxin or Slash proc hits you. Your health counts down: 10, 4, 2, DEAD. If only you had on a Rejuvenation aura.

  Reveal hidden contents

Really it doesn't make sense as to why Warframes can't just naturally regenerate health. They're Infested super-humans crammed full of mythologically advanced technology. The fact they can't heal the occasional scrape or ding without outside aid is baffling.

Ideally Warframes should be able to heal themselves at the tiniest of increments. Not enough to actively heal a good chunk of health between fights, but just enough that the occasional flesh wound will patch itself up after a minute or two. Like (+1 hp / 2 sec) or something.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I've been seeing a lot of comments saying it will "make the game too easy". I'm just gonna throw down some math to offset these argument.

The average Warframe has 300 health at rank 30 with no supplemental mods. If they were given health regen of 1hp per 2 seconds, it would take ~10 minutes to fully regenerate their health from near death. I personally cannot think of any situation in which a player would be on the defensive for 10 solid minutes without health orbs dropping. The focus of this entire argument is that small amounts of chip damage should not spell death.

Play the game more, I don't say this as a way of being cocky, but there's a spoiler later on that will GREATLY increase the tools at your disposition, it will give you MANY ways to do exactly what you want to do, which is regenerate HP. Just play the game more, trust me. Also try to acquire argane guardian, 2 sets of arcane guardian make any squishy frame quite tanky.

[Teridax68]

11 hours ago, Gawizard said:

By your logic, Children who were taught that santa claus was real are still writing letters to this day hoping for toys and gifts. Understand how i see your points?

So you are saying players are literal children who have to be fed pleasant lies to disguise the reality of a much harsher and crueler world? What? What are you even trying to argue out of this ridiculous analogy?

Quote

I just constantly hear about "The player will learn wrong things that will contribute to bad gameplay". I recently suggested that recovery missions to be integrated into regular gameplay so if you failed the mission, youd get a chance on getting back your stuff. A few minutes later, a user told me why it wouldnt be good for the game. "You've lost the loot since you've failed the mission" from then it made sense, since youll have that one careless person playing though games who just got like 6 rare mods and would just fail the mission just to get back everything in a free (second chance) mission. Now would that be considered good gameplay? Purposely failing a mission to get their 'earned' loot would have been bad gameplay if i can tell.

But no game mode in Warframe encourages the player to fail a mission to get loot, not even Recovery, or Bounties, which similarly let the player keep their loot after failure. There is no question of teaching bad habits here, because there are no bad habits being taught in your examples. As with the above, I don't understand the point of this desperate reach.

Quote

Modding for shield capacity isnt bad game play, its inefficient game play, Yes youre technically surviving longer, but through trial and error, the game mechanics for each game state (mid and late game) would be taught. You cant expect to do everything perfect. I didnt learn calculus in a day  and so will a new player wouldnt know how to play at at the best in 3 - 5 minutes of gameplay. 

But Warframe isn't calculus, nor does it need to be. It doesn't need to teach players early on to focus on shields, only to tell them later that shields are actually useless in higher levels and that one should instead focus on health and armor. One can't expect everything to be perfect, which is precisely why people here are giving feedback here so that the game can improve. Again, what are you trying to say here? What's so bad about adding a little bit of innate health regen to all frames?

Edited April 12, 2019 by Teridax68

[Bregastor]

As a new player (53 day login) and MR 12(almost 13) I have to say that the problem you are talking about is non existent because even as a new player you have the option to smash the starchart quite easily. 

Some frame are squishier than others and since a new player do not have all the tools to make them tankier, they have to adapt just by switching frames and focus on those that have no problem staying alive. 

Personally as I have reached Venus, I straight up farmed Rinho component and played it until sedna with 0 problem about slash or toxin. 

Warframe are the answer you are looking for, if you want to stay alive either you have end game tools to do so or focus on a frame that do not have that kind of problem. 

Now that I have starchart completed I started focusing on building frames for different situation.

As a new player I say no to your passive health regen, early games was already easy in my opinion don't need that too. 

[Drasiel]

We have health restores for exactly this reason. Even the smallest restore is enough to do exactly what you are asking for. 

[HexOmega111x]

Not a single time during my warframe journey I wished to have any kind of life regen. Instead, I was trying to understand the game and tried to figure what tool the game has to offer to help me and how to use them. We have everything we need already.

Not needed. At all. 

[Mazrou]

On 2019-04-08 at 11:57 PM, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

We've been in a situation like this before: We're playing with a squishy Warframe (Mag, Nyx, etc) and just got done clearing out a hoard of enemies. You're now low on health and not having any luck getting health orbs; so now you're playing more cautiously. Everything is going fine until a stray Toxin or Slash proc hits you. Your health counts down: 10, 4, 2, DEAD. If only you had on a Rejuvenation aura.

  Hide contents

Really it doesn't make sense as to why Warframes can't just naturally regenerate health. They're Infested super-humans crammed full of mythologically advanced technology. The fact they can't heal the occasional scrape or ding without outside aid is baffling.

Ideally Warframes should be able to heal themselves at the tiniest of increments. Not enough to actively heal a good chunk of health between fights, but just enough that the occasional flesh wound will patch itself up after a minute or two. Like (+1 hp / 2 sec) or something.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I've been seeing a lot of comments saying it will "make the game too easy". I'm just gonna throw down some math to offset these argument.

The average Warframe has 300 health at rank 30 with no supplemental mods. If they were given health regen of 1hp per 2 seconds, it would take ~10 minutes to fully regenerate their health from near death. I personally cannot think of any situation in which a player would be on the defensive for 10 solid minutes without health orbs dropping. The focus of this entire argument is that small amounts of chip damage should not spell death.

U said what was on my mind i was thinking why there is no base health regen i really want to  drop out the arcane grace for other arcanes but i really find it hard to survive without health regen i used to have rejuvenation on most frames just to be ables to survive DE can just fix this issue easily, in every other games all players can regain health only in warframe  it depends on the frame your using and wether you craft the health pads which is not practical IMO in my playing style which requires you to stand still to the open fire and getting damaged while waiting to get healed...

hope DE does something about it 

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Step  one is to work up to your operator. And step two is to farm plat to but a R3 magus repair or two which is fairly cheap and or use one of the many healing methods that do not require the operator to do so. The level of health Regen that your suggesting in your edits would not help at all in the long run anyway as if your dying in starchart stuff that is a case of not farming enough and going in to weak to complete it, so health Regen would not help you anyway. Health Regen is something you have to make some sort of sacrifice no matter how small to get and invest time or grind to obtain just like with energy Regen.

[Test-995]

I can't really get why this much of people is against this idea, it wouldn't make game any worse, could make it a little easier but that's it.

[(PSN)Limorkil]

I find those low health situations to be quite exciting, requiring thought.  I wouldn’t like the Call of Duty just hide behind a wall to recover from that head shot thing. There are health orbs, and healing is an advantage to some frames, and there are various other sources of healing including health restores.  

Also, if the passive healing were to be so slow there is no real advantage to it, then why even bother?

[Mazrou]

5 hours ago, Test-995 said:

I can't really get why this much of people is against this idea, it wouldn't make game any worse, could make it a little easier but that's it.

Me too I am not really sure why everyone is against it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, Gonjero said:

Me too I am not really sure why everyone is against it.

When the game is already 'easy' and has no actual penalties for 'death' other than to say 'please try again', making it 'easier' is literally the most irrelevant thing you can do.

OP thinks that death in the early game is causing enough players to quit that it's a problem and that the solution is not having a New Player Experience that teaches them how to actually play the game, and thus help them survive better, but instead is to freely give out a function that DE have clearly marked as something that players have to earn.

[Test-995]

29 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

When the game is already 'easy' and has no actual penalties for 'death' other than to say 'please try again', making it 'easier' is literally the most irrelevant thing you can do.

OP thinks that death in the early game is causing enough players to quit that it's a problem and that the solution is not having a New Player Experience that teaches them how to actually play the game, and thus help them survive better, but instead is to freely give out a function that DE have clearly marked as something that players have to earn.

Game is hardest in early game, and it became easier and easier overtime.

Making early game easier seems nice thing to me.

[MJ12]

41 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

When the game is already 'easy' and has no actual penalties for 'death' other than to say 'please try again', making it 'easier' is literally the most irrelevant thing you can do.

OP thinks that death in the early game is causing enough players to quit that it's a problem and that the solution is not having a New Player Experience that teaches them how to actually play the game, and thus help them survive better, but instead is to freely give out a function that DE have clearly marked as something that players have to earn.

The OP wants to give the players a new player experience that teaches them how to actually play the game. You know, the actual game of Warframe, where health is easily restored through a variety of methods? If this somehow makes the early game 'too easy' you can literally bump up the spawn rate of enemies in the early game to compensate, which also helps cement the idea that Warframe's a game where you kill enemies by the bucketload. Oh hey, it's almost as if 'give players passive health regen, increase spawn rates somewhat to compensate' would actually kill two birds with one stone.

And with a minimal change, this post could be a defense of any new-player unfriendly decision. Like for example, the older state of the game where players weren't given even a set of basic mods. Hell, I can imagine that post already.

"OP thinks that a lack of modding in the early game is causing enough players to quit that it's a problem and that the solution is not having a New Player Experience that teaches them how to actually play the game, and thus help them survive better, but instead is to freely give out mods that DE have clearly marked as something that players have to earn."