Feedback on the recent looting change with Nekros/Hydroid etc.

[Drasiel]

10 hours ago, KarazyX said:

I have added how Hydroid's ability to drop more loot is dependent on a max of 20 tentacles, their density and how enemies can bypass them; how Nekros's ability consumes 3 corpses per second; and the frames Ivara synergizes with best and why.

 

I am not familiar enough with Atlas' ability to know how it synergizes with other looters or how efficient it is, and since I don't ever see people using him for looting I didn't include him.

Ore gaze has a 25% chance for additional loot from enemies destroyed while stoned by petrify

• the 25% is affected by power strength requiring 200% strength to reach 50% loot chance

Ore gazes base range is a 14m 60 degree cone.

• length is affected by power range
• the 60 degree angle of effect is immutable

Enemies must be killed within 20 seconds of casting at base to have the chance to drop extra loot

• affected by power duration

Ore gaze costs 75 energy at base

• affected by power efficiency

It's a pain in the butt to use, it is annoying to build for since the mods for maximizing duration, range and strength tend to detract from one another, it has to be spammed and away from others because if they kill them first you get nothing. Oh and it has a slow cast requiring the use of natural talent. It's terrible but it's still a looting ability and no longer works with the others either making it even worse than before.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Drasiel
mixed up mod

[Drachnyn]

It's not only the Hema farm either that was made worse. For a new player pretty much every resource needs to be farmed especially Polymer bundles. The nerf should be reverted entirely.

If the Chesa's ability was truly bugged then they should have just fixed that instead of using it as a poor excuse to nerf everything and then try to hide it in "fixes".

[Xzorn]

1.  Remove all Loot based abilities.
2.  Replace Loot based abilities with fun / effective / on-theme functions.
3.  Normalize drops based on Avg improvement of previous loot ability stacking.
4.  Play what you want without worrying about a stat that doesn't serve a purpose.

[xZayziex]

11 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Ore gaze has a 25% chance for additional loot from enemies destroyed while stoned by petrify

• the 25% is affected by power strength requiring 200% strength to reach 50% loot chance

Ore gazes base range is a 14m 60 degree cone.

• length is affected by power range
• the 60 degree angle of effect is immutable

Enemies must be killed within 20 seconds of casting at base to have the chance to drop extra loot

• affected by power duration...

So it sounds like Atlas' ability would also work best in a choke point but, compared to others, it's too slow and works against players/missions that focus on kills per second. It seems like this ability could be made better by just making it an instant cast 360 degree ability (after equipping the augment), or having range  change the angle of effect. Honestly I feel like the skill should just have a flat 50% to drop loot and scale up with ability strength from there, at least to be able to synergize or be viable to use on its own. It also makes sense to me since it's kind of like "mining" for more loot. But yeah, in it's current state it seems useless.

 

51 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

1.  Remove all Loot based abilities.
2.  Replace Loot based abilities with fun / effective / on-theme functions.
3.  Normalize drops based on Avg improvement of previous loot ability stacking.
4.  Play what you want without worrying about a stat that doesn't serve a purpose.

1&3. Synergizing loot abilities and normalizing drop tables don't need to be mutually exclusive, and, as I said before 1) people who want tons of loot are still going to go out and farm tons of loot, regardless of how much DE tries to nerf farming and 2) people like to farm to minimize time needed to gather resources and maximize time playing missions they like, which may only be sorties, fissures, arbitrations and kuva survival for several people. Buffing the amount of resources extractors get could also be an alternative to needing to go farming.

2. Many looter frames are also already "on-theme" . Ivara is "the huntress, the thief" while Hydroid is "a deadly marauder from the deep" so generating more loot makes total sense for both. For Ivara, looting also allows for a totally different type of playstyle since her sleep arrow and ability to loot also makes her owerful solo frame that can solo sabotages and spy missions without killing anyone while still getting loot and she only needs to kill one person in a capture mission. If I want to jump on warframe, solo things and chill then I take Ivara everywhere. The only place Ivara's ability to solo, loot, and put enemies to sleep isn't that effective is in survival, because enemies spawn rate vs their ability drop life support while solo is silly. For Nekros and Khora, generating more loot is not directly on theme but the former "possesses the battlefield" and the latter is "a mistress of entrapment" and it's not a big step to take to also say those descriptions mean they can manipulate enemies into giving them more loot.

4. People already do this anyway, Usually, the alternative to using looting abilities to get resources is to kill everything quickly so this would just bring the convo back to what a meta team comp would be except it'd just be about normal "run around and nuke the map"  team compositions which I don't find that fun or engaging, but it's easy to do so a lot of people default to this, myself included sometimes.

[Xzorn]

34 minutes ago, KarazyX said:

-snip-

 

You might be failing to realize that we as players aren't actually getting anything from loot based abilities. DE is not completely inept. They take these abilities into consideration when they set drop rates. You're not getting bonus loot. You're getting normal loot when stacking loot abilities and anyone who doesn't just gets less.

It's not a coincidence that loot abilities don't help with high value currency. Not Kuva, Ducats, Arcanes, Prime Parts, Rivens, Forma, ect. They already have the high profile loot normalized and having frames with looting abilities is essentially a waste of time while taking up space for more effective functionality in actual game play.

Players are yelling "We want our +300% Magic Find" and DE goes "OK" then makes the drop chance 1/4 what it should be or just completely unaffected. There's literally no point in arguing about stacking a meta stat like +%Loot. Especially in a F2P game. I've watched it play out with every new resource. Devs always win.

The only logical argument is to remove Loot abilities entirely and hopefully improve some frames on the way.

[xZayziex]

And you are clearly not realizing I have been discussing ways to synergize looting/resource farming tactics, player's playstyles and ability mechanics so that you can promote your own pet peeve with drop rates and loot tables, which leads to a whole other conversation about balancing any and everything in warframe. You also ignored that Ivara is a whole Warframe that can get loot without killing anyone and some people may prefer playing like that.

The fact you aren't getting more rare mission rewards or special currency is not a reason to say loot abilities—which get lootable resources to craft mission reward items—and fixing drop rates and tables should be mutually exclusive. The foundry is also where farmable resources are used to make tons of items that people burn through during regular gameplay while mission rewards you get and have and use forever or can sell for plat if they get more of those rewards. And Kuva is not excluded from being affected by loot abilities as Smeeta's Charm can affect the amount of Kuva you get.

 TL;DR I agree that drop rates and tables are funky compared to what types of items require them and how often people use those items, but I disagree that removing loot abilites is actually the solution because synergizing loot abilities and fixing drop rates/tables aren't mutually exclusive and removing loot abilites can create tons of other issues that deserves their own feedback thread or already have one.

Edited June 9, 2019 by KarazyX

[Guest]

On 2019-05-31 at 1:00 AM, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

To be fair, which concrete Resource is hard to get, that we need full squad of Looters?

It's not hard to get, but you honestly cannot ever have enough polymer bundles.  There are a ton of resources that you simply always need, all the time.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Guest

[Xzorn]

Did you miss how happy DE was to tell everyone that Kuva will work with Shmeeta? Kavats were heavily underused yet still fairly new so they made that an exception to get players to use them instead of simply making Kavats good. One of the reasons Kuva drop rates suck is because DE intends for players use boosters and Shmeeta when farming it. Would you use Shmeeta if it didn't have that loot gimmick? Probably not and that's the point I'm attempting to explain.

I've watched this scam repeat over and over with Oxium at 1-3 per drop then Tellerium, Ceres Beacons, Mutagen Samples, resources from PoE / Vallis and every other new resource. They make crap harder to get when it comes out on purpose because you're expected to use boosters and loot frames to get them until those resources become worthless and the ones that don't become worthless they lock your loot abilities out.

I didn't need boosters back in U7, 8, 9, ect and there were no loot abilities. Anyone trying to fix or promote changes to a meta stat like +%Loot is just playing into a battle they've already lost and at the determent of replacing good features like if Hydroid's Tentacles, Atlas' Ore Gaze or Khora's 4th augments actually did something. Removing loot abilities, replacing them with functional features and normalizing drop rates produces no negative effects. You're welcome to bring one up.

...always need Poly. Pffft.

 

Resources are easier to get than they've ever been, least for me but I guess that's my play style and sucks for whoever doesn't do the same.

[Spectre-8]

More loot ? Count me in chief. 😄

[xZayziex]

45 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Did you miss how happy DE was to tell everyone that Kuva will work with Shmeeta? Kavats were heavily underused yet still fairly new so they made that an exception to get players to use them instead of simply making Kavats good. One of the reasons Kuva drop rates suck is because DE intends for players use boosters and Shmeeta when farming it. Would you use Shmeeta if it didn't have that loot gimmick? Probably not and that's the point I'm attempting to explain.

I've watched this scam repeat over and over with Oxium at 1-3 per drop then Tellerium, Ceres Beacons, Mutagen Samples, resources from PoE / Vallis and every other new resource. They make crap harder to get when it comes out on purpose because you're expected to use boosters and loot frames to get them until those resources become worthless and the ones that don't become worthless they lock your loot abilities out.

I didn't need boosters back in U7, 8, 9, ect and there were no loot abilities. Anyone trying to fix or promote changes to a meta stat like +%Loot is just playing into a battle they've already lost and at the determent of replacing good features like if Hydroid's Tentacles, Atlas' Ore Gaze or Khora's 4th augments actually did something. Removing loot abilities, replacing them with functional features and normalizing drop rates produces no negative effects. You're welcome to bring one up.

...always need Poly. Pffft.

 

Resources are easier to get than they've ever been, least for me but I guess that's my play style and sucks for whoever doesn't do the same.

I've seen people burn through that much polymer in a week's time so you can feel how you want about it people still always use and need certain resources. I've also already named some of the points you bring up, have already brought up counterpoints and my suggestions also would not create any negative effects while also not demanding DE's team add five to nine (including pets) reworks to their schedule on top of going through all the drop tables and rates.

However, you seem totally content not to engage those points in favor of being condescending and putting people down so I'm done engaging your points for now. If you'd like to go contribute to threads about removing loot abilities in favor of other things, or have already done so—more power to you, but I'm not interested in discussing total overhauls into several different aspects of the game. Id rather discuss how to make one activity in the game less about a meta and more about synergizing playstyles. So best to you, but I'm going to focus on the original point if this thread now and not go totally off the rails.

[Chipputer]

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

1.  Remove all Loot based abilities.
2.  Replace Loot based abilities with fun / effective / on-theme functions.
3.  Normalize drops based on Avg improvement of previous loot ability stacking.
4.  Play what you want without worrying about a stat that doesn't serve a purpose.

This.

Removing looting abilities, rather than making them synergize, is perfectly in line with this type of discussion. You don't have to like it but he's presenting an alternative solution.

[xZayziex]

And we discussed it and I acknowledged that I disagreed, but they aren't budging on their point and are dismissing or ignoring mine and moving the goal posts. It's not about whether or not I like it, it's just tiresome to constantly respond to that and easier to admit we disagree and just move on.

Edited June 10, 2019 by KarazyX

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2019‎-‎05‎-‎29 at 1:52 PM, KarazyX said:

• However, in practice, this throws off spawns, especially in survival missions, where enemies spawn near Ivara and then take cover in the room. It's as if they are aware of her presence but unaware of her teammates causing total havoc in another room.

•  

This happens because of enemy radar.  Enemies that appear on the radar tend to move toward the frame with it.  Ivara innately has 20m enemy radar without any other mods.  Using mods to increase the range of enemy radar shouldn't cause any problems for teammates in the same room.  

48 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

This.

Removing looting abilities, rather than making them synergize, is perfectly in line with this type of discussion. You don't have to like it but he's presenting an alternative solution.

I personally can live with not having any looting abilities.  While I've mained Ivara for almost 4 years now, I haven't ever depended on the looting ability of Prowl and my build reflects that with only about 90-95% duration.  

It's just more efficient and faster to just kill groups of enemies and let Vacuum get the drops than try to use Prowl's steal to double dip.  

Edited June 10, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[xZayziex]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This happens because of enemy radar.  Enemies that appear on the radar tend to move toward the frame with it.  Ivara innately has 20m enemy radar without any other mods.  Using mods to increase the range of enemy radar shouldn't cause any problems for teammates in the same room. 

Thanks for the info though there shouldn't need to be a workaround for this.

8 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

It' just more efficient and faster to just kill groups of enemies and let Vacuum get the drops than try to use Prowl's steal to double dip.  

I've already made this point and I also play Ivara all the time even though I haven't been playing for years like others. I also pointed out that I like to play solo, chill while exploring around a map, get drops, and not have to kill everything. I enjoy having options for playing frames differently depending on how I feel. Sometimes I kill everything on a map with Ivara, sometimes I don't. Again, everyone plays differently.

[DatDarkOne]

52 minutes ago, KarazyX said:

Thanks for the info though there shouldn't need to be a workaround for this.

I've already made this point and I also play Ivara all the time even though I haven't been playing for years like others. I also pointed out that I like to play solo, chill while exploring around a map, get drops, and not have to kill everything. I enjoy having options for playing frames differently depending on how I feel. Sometimes I kill everything on a map with Ivara, sometimes I don't. Again, everyone plays differently.

While you made this one of you points, mine was quite relevant to the overall discussion on farming.  And in regards to Ivara, she has never been or could be an efficient frame for farming if just using Prowl's steal ability.  

This is whether in groups, solo, chill gameplay, or serious farming session.  Her most efficient method of farming in all those cases is to just kill the enemies straight out.  Anything else is really just wasting energy for little gain while in Prowl.  

The only time using her Prowl to steal for farming doesn't fall into the above is in cases like against the acolytes,Grove Spectors, stalker, etc

This is one of the main reasons I've always thought people that complained about her steal Nerf were just full of B.S. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by DatDarkOne
some grammar and clarity corrections

[Chipputer]

59 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This happens because of enemy radar.  Enemies that appear on the radar tend to move toward the frame with it.  Ivara innately has 20m enemy radar without any other mods.  Using mods to increase the range of enemy radar shouldn't cause any problems for teammates in the same room.  

Untrue. Glen addressed this bit of misinformation in his latest stream, actually.

[DatDarkOne]

43 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Untrue. Glen addressed this bit of misinformation in his latest stream, actually.

I didn't get to see his stream.  Could you give me a small breakdown of that part please?  

edit: I found it in the transcripts.  Thanks for the heads up anyway.   😀 

Edited June 10, 2019 by DatDarkOne
edited after finding info

[SpicyDinosaur]

Okay, a drive-by comment.

 

1. Smeeta came out way less than four years ago, the person saying that is either confused or lying.

 

2. Smeetas always had the same abilities they have now. I was around and breeding when they came out. There might be miniscule changes I have forgotten, but not a complete overhaul or a change in a precept like one of the posters is implying, (really just flat out saying it is so,)

 

Honestly, some/most of you just sound like you are bending over backwards to make excuses to disagree. Ether because, and this is the case for any internet thread in most online communities, the most noticeable beginning to responses was severely negative and it is coloring your own judgement. Unfortunately, I don't have a "think for yourself" hypnotic gif to reverse that.

 

That or you just like complaining and being toxic. Some of the stuff that is supposed to be legitimate feedback here is so contrarian and not even honest or knowledgable that I am shocked your keyboard doesn't flat out refuse to type things for you anymore.

[xZayziex]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

While you made this one of you points, mine was quite relevant to the overall discussion on farming.  And in regards to Ivara, she has never been or could be an efficient frame for farming if just using Prowl's steal ability.  

This is whether in groups, solo, chill gameplay, or serious farming session.  Her most efficient method of farming in all those cases is to just kill the enemies straight out.  Anything else is really just wasting energy for little gain while in Prowl.  

The only time using her Prowl to steal for farming doesn't fall into the above is in cases like against the acolytes,Grove Spectors, stalker, etc

This is one of the main reasons I've always thought people that complained about her steal Nerf were just full of B.S. 

 

You are talking as if my original post doesn't outline how Ivara's loot ability works and where it falls short, and how it could be better in plenty of detail, and as if I didn't suggest ways it could be useful for a full sqaud or improve solo play. You are also becoming condescending and demeaning by acting as if my wanting to play a Warframe a certain way is not valid or reasonable even if I just feel like it, or as if others wanting to loot with Ivara is nonsense. I also know other folks who enjoy looting with Ivara even if it's not the best. Again, penty of people play Warframe how they want to suit their own playstyle or the mood they're in, regardless of whether or not you think they should.

Anyway, I will be moving on from your comments as well as I'm not interested in perpetually repeating myself or trying to have a discussion with someone who seems more interested in a full blown argument than an actual discussion.

 

[SpicyDinosaur]

Oh, something I missed, the person saying they never use Ivara's pick pocket ability would have to never use prowl, like it is literally impossible to turn off. More BS basically.

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, KarazyX said:

You are also becoming condescending and demeaning by acting as if my wanting to play a Warframe a certain way is not valid or reasonable even if I just feel like it, or as if others wanting to loot with Ivara is nonsense.

How the heck am I being condescending or demeaning YOU by stating my opinion of why using Ivara in that way is not efficient. Yes, I said not efficient.  I did not say at any time that you couldn't play how you want.  

I did not say it was nonsense either.  Because doing so would have been hypocrisy as I farm materials myself using her as she practically the only frame I play on a consistent basis.  

What I did say was that those people who had previously complained when Ivara first receives her Nerf to loot stacking with multiple Ivara were full of B.S.  

6 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Oh, something I missed, the person saying they never use Ivara's pick pocket ability would have to never use prowl, like it is literally impossible to turn off. More BS basically.

First off Prowl's steal is heavily dependent on having high duration to have a short steal time.  There is also distance as a factor.  power strength must be at least 100% to guarantee that it steals if the target is in range.  

So you can very easily have Prowl not steal a single thing in the whole mission if either you are killing enemies at range or you teammates are.  

Don't call BS unless you can back it up with either experience or data.   

[MagPrime]

12 hours ago, Xzorn said:

1.  Remove all Loot based abilities.
2.  Replace Loot based abilities with fun / effective / on-theme functions.
3.  Normalize drops based on Avg improvement of previous loot ability stacking.
4.  Play what you want without worrying about a stat that doesn't serve a purpose.

This, 100%

[xZayziex]

Reposting my original comments on Ivara and her loot abilities so that I don't have to repeat myself and others reading this thread aren't confused as to what I did or did not already say.

On 2019-05-29 at 1:52 PM, KarazyX said:

 

• Prowl (with max range & duration + a max blind rage) depends on 8 meter range and 0.8 second steal timer PER enemy. (can be 11 meters and 1.21 seconds without narrow minded) and a whole mob can take 10-20 seconds to rob.

  • While Ivara's ability can double dip it doesn't really matter if Ivara can't steal from enemies in the Swarm or Strangledome (which hasn't ever worked for me) and can't steal from a group of enemies faster than Nekros, Khora, and Hydroid can kill them with their range (which doesn't need to be maximized to be efficient)

  • Because of limitations with range and duration, Ivara is better off wandering away from the group and stealing from spawns before they reach other teammates. However, in practice, this throws off spawns, especially in survival missions, where enemies spawn near Ivara and then take cover in the room. It's as if they are aware of her presence but unaware of her teammates causing total havoc in another room.

  • With pets, she synergizes best with a Chesa because they are both slower looters but Smeeta Charm buffs works better with Ivara's toolkit  and can net a double affinity, a resource boost for two minutes, plus rare resource instances—so why bring a Chesa?

  • With other warframes, she synergizes best with Pilfering Swarm or Pilfering Strangledome if the abilities are used in the choke point of a hallway with a dead end, where everyone hides around a corner in the dead end while Ivara stands at the start of the choke point and steals from the enemies. Not pub friendly nor exactly the most engaging gameplay, and only works in organized squads. This can also still throw off spawns if they aren't aware of other teammates.

....

 

• Prowl's range and duration could be dependent on melee weapon range mods and attack speed mods on top of range and duration warframe mods:

  • There are plenty of abilities that are affected by mods on other weapons so I think that the frame who can totally ignore lasers and can fire a dashwire between two mountains on the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis can use the range and attack speed mods on a weapon to pickpocket fast and far enough to keep up with other looter frames.

 

[DatDarkOne]

[DatDarkOne]

Some people either just don't read or read something that isn't there and then go with it.