Just me or projectile based weapons are really slow?

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

OK, fair enough. The Supra, however, is a heavy laser gun with slow projectiles (80 m/s!). It should actually pulse invisible laser beams that hit the target instantly! But that wouldn't look very cool...

 

Reference:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Supra

The Supra is actually firing plasma projectiles.  In that very same wiki link it says this in the notes at the bottom.  Which is why it works so well with Magnetize.  

Side note: I have to admit that I haven't tried using Ivara to control it with Navigator yet.  

Edited June 25, 2019 by DatDarkOne
added statement

[nslay]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

The Supra is actually firing plasma projectiles.  Not actual light.  Which is why it works so well with Magnetize.  

Side note: I have to admit that I haven't tried using Ivara to control it with Navigator yet.  

It's supposed to be a heavy laser gun according to the Codex. The Warframe wiki elaborates further:

Quote

The Supra is a tri-barrel laser repeater of Corpus design that is unlockable through Energy Lab Research in the Dojo.

It's supposed to shoot high energy concentrated electromagnetic radiation (i.e. laser) which has a "projectile" speed of c, the speed of light.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

It's supposed to be a heavy laser gun according to the Codex. The Warframe wiki elaborates further:

It's supposed to shoot high energy concentrated electromagnetic radiation (i.e. laser) which has a "projectile" speed of c, the speed of light.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Supra

Although the Supra is labeled as a "laser gun" in its description. It is actually a plasma weapon.

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Supra

Although the Supra is labeled as a "laser gun" in its description. It is actually a plasma weapon.

Yeah, as in DE thought of Star Wars/Star Trek with laser weapons shooting discrete, slow-moving, visible beams of light in a spectacular display of fire fight rather than the likely scene of people silently pointing guns at each other in the air and collapsing for no apparent reason (or catching on fire/irradiated/melting).

The Codex/description should be corrected as "Plasma Gun" or the gun should be corrected to behave like an actual laser gun.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I once had a twin gremlin roll that gave me -projectile flight speed. It was funny to use but very impratical. I was walking faster than the bullet travel. Walking not sprinting.

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, nslay said:

Yeah, as in DE thought of Star Wars/Star Trek with laser weapons shooting discrete, slow-moving, visible beams of light in a spectacular display of fire fight rather than the likely scene of people silently pointing guns at each other in the air and collapsing for no apparent reason (or catching on fire/irradiated/melting).

to be fair, the Hardlight Theory really works, so Lasers moving at perceptible speeds isn't as ridiculous it sounds, we just don't understand the science needed to deploy that into an actual Weapon.

[nslay]

37 minutes ago, taiiat said:

to be fair, the Hardlight Theory really works, so Lasers moving at perceptible speeds isn't as ridiculous it sounds, we just don't understand the science needed to deploy that into an actual Weapon.

That's not being fair because solid light is not well established theory and "really works" is probably the wrong way to describe it.. Let alone "deploying it in weapons" when we can barely make it (if it was even actually made as claimed!). But this is a sci-fi game...

But even so, making solid light and launching it as projectile is not the same as a laser weapon that uses lasers to deal its damage.

EDIT: I'm not a physicist. But a glance at the literature and even media really casts a lot of doubt on "really works". You don't need to be a physicist to see that the conditions in which solid light may have been created (and very recently too!) is very far from engineering the stuff into weapons or even using it for other applications!

Edited June 25, 2019 by nslay

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, nslay said:

Yeah, as in DE thought of Star Wars/Star Trek with laser weapons shooting discrete, slow-moving, visible beams of light in a spectacular display of fire fight rather than the likely scene of people silently pointing guns at each other in the air and collapsing for no apparent reason (or catching on fire/irradiated/melting).

The Codex/description should be corrected as "Plasma Gun" or the gun should be corrected to behave like an actual laser gun.

Star Wars and Star Trek actually dont use lasers. In Star Wars they are blaster weapons or well plasma guns. I dont think there is a single weapon in the Star Wars universe/movies/games that could be considered an actual laser besides possibly the Death Star(s). In Star Trek they have all kinds of beam weapons, but no actual lasers.

Sci-Fi where it can be seen would be Babylon 5 or Warhammer 40k. The "lance" weapons on the massive ships that just cut through the enemy in B5, the lasguns, lascannons and ship mounted "lance" beams of 40k. We kinda also have it here, with the Opticor versions. Though it doesnt use the sustained beam often connected to actual laser weapons or lasers in general. It is a short charge up that releases a form of laserbeam-blast. And obviously also the Quanta.

Then things like the Lanka many like to refer to as a railgun. But it really isnt because the projectile is far too slow. So many, or most of the Corpus designs are plasma weapons.

 

[aswitz87]

On 2019-06-24 at 2:07 PM, nslay said:

I love how energy weapons are slower than projectile weapons. The energy beams should be invisible and travel at the speed of light. I guess if the energy weapons were realistic, it would be more confusing... "Ready the lasers number 1! Fire!" ... Camera pans to target and we see/hear nothing and then the target explodes out of no where. Talk about cheaper special effects!

So yeah, that Lanka should be a better long range sniper than ones that use bullets. Wait, can solar wind mess up your shot?

The ene4y weapons are likely concentrated high energy plasma, and thus cannot go at the speed of light.

[taiiat]

20 hours ago, nslay said:

That's not being fair because solid light is not well established theory and "really works" is probably the wrong way to describe it.. Let alone "deploying it in weapons" when we can barely make it (if it was even actually made as claimed!). But this is a sci-fi game...

But even so, making solid light and launching it as projectile is not the same as a laser weapon that uses lasers to deal its damage.

EDIT: I'm not a physicist. But a glance at the literature and even media really casts a lot of doubt on "really works". You don't need to be a physicist to see that the conditions in which solid light may have been created (and very recently too!) is very far from engineering the stuff into weapons or even using it for other applications!

well, it works because we've been able to reproduce the effect of slowing light down with magnetic forces, in an extremely controlled scenario.
but, because we were able to have an effect at all, that means that the Hardlight Theory works. you would just need more energy or another way to tackle the goal to put it to use with something, like Weaponizing it.
but the principle is proven, that light can be slowed down while still retaining basically all other properties, which in turn means that a lightsaber is possible in this universe, we just don't know how to make it work. and also Laser Guns too.

[nslay]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

well, it works because we've been able to reproduce the effect of slowing light down with magnetic forces, in an extremely controlled scenario.
but, because we were able to have an effect at all, that means that the Hardlight Theory works. you would just need more energy or another way to tackle the goal to put it to use with something, like Weaponizing it.
but the principle is proven, that light can be slowed down while still retaining basically all other properties, which in turn means that a lightsaber is possible in this universe, we just don't know how to make it work. and also Laser Guns too.

It's not certain it works. It's been done only twice and it may have been observed. This is not "really works" or "proven principle." And owing to the experimental circumstances for which it may have happened, it's not practical to apply to anything (let alone weapons!).

[aswitz87]

On 2019-06-25 at 12:20 AM, nslay said:

It's supposed to be a heavy laser gun according to the Codex. The Warframe wiki elaborates further:

It's supposed to shoot high energy concentrated electromagnetic radiation (i.e. laser) which has a "projectile" speed of c, the speed of light.

Perhaps lasers are part of the system responsible for the firing mechanism.  A rail gun doesn’t fire rails, they are what are used to fire the shot.  So maybe it being a laser gun just means it uses them directly in the firing process.

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, nslay said:

It's not certain it works. It's been done only twice and it may have been observed. This is not "really works" or "proven principle." And owing to the experimental circumstances for which it may have happened, it's not practical to apply to anything (let alone weapons!).

outside of margin of error is a good start.

and i didn't say anything about practical, hold up :D
is it practical? probably not, since ultimately Lasers aren't practical inside of a Planets' Atmosphere. and then what good does slowing down the light even do you, beats me. for a handheld Weapon i guess there's some merit for light to replace a bladed Weapon but that's about the only efficient application of Hardlight i could think of.
and even then, wouldn't that make the thing very difficult to use since you'd basically have a magic wand that pukes out a wackton of radiation.... ala it's either going to be so bright you can't open your eyes, or it's going to be on Infrared so you cook just by being near it, or it's on one of the more exotic wavelengths so that you melt, explode, Et Cetera just by being near it.

but it doesn't have to be practical, to be possible ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Renegade343]

48 minutes ago, taiiat said:

 and then what good does slowing down the light even do you, beats me.

Possibly use it as a basis to investigate hypothetical materials. 

[nslay]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

outside of margin of error is a good start.

and i didn't say anything about practical, hold up 😄
is it practical? probably not, since ultimately Lasers aren't practical inside of a Planets' Atmosphere. and then what good does slowing down the light even do you, beats me. for a handheld Weapon i guess there's some merit for light to replace a bladed Weapon but that's about the only efficient application of Hardlight i could think of.
and even then, wouldn't that make the thing very difficult to use since you'd basically have a magic wand that pukes out a wackton of radiation.... ala it's either going to be so bright you can't open your eyes, or it's going to be on Infrared so you cook just by being near it, or it's on one of the more exotic wavelengths so that you melt, explode, Et Cetera just by being near it.

but it doesn't have to be practical, to be possible ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes, yes. It's a Sci-Fi game. I appreciate that you shared "solid light" because I had never heard of that. However, don't tell me "to be fair" and proclaim it as well established science when it's in its infancy. We know that light particles were made to behave like solids and liquids, though that doesn't mean solid light will hit real matter and exert force. Maybe it's not even known how it will behave!

I am just appalled that Supra is not a laser weapon as described and that Corpus engineers thought slow-moving plasma projectiles were a great idea for a long range sniper weapon like Lanka. Seriously, the Grineer were smarter than that with their crude Vulkar/Vulkar Wraith weapons and they're supposed to be dumber than the Corpus! I still like Lanka though! And I like Vulkar Wraith too!

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

though that doesn't mean solid light will hit real matter and exert force. Maybe it's not even known how it will behave!

I am just appalled that Supra is not a laser weapon as described and that Corpus engineers thought slow-moving plasma projectiles were a great idea for a long range sniper weapon like Lanka. Seriously, the Grineer were smarter than that with their crude Vulkar/Vulkar Wraith weapons and they're supposed to be dumber than the Corpus! I still like Lanka though! And I like Vulkar Wraith too!

i don't think we'd expect to make a solid object out of it, but that it would be like a Laser, just effectively endcapped by some form of field that loops it back in on itself. so being able to apply very high Energy to cut with it like a Laser already does, but in a different form.
which is why i'm not sure a Laser Bolt Gun or anything of that sort really has much benefits, since if you can fire a pulse wouldn't a continuous emission just be better but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

take a look at the Stats, though? those depict the tale. Lanka definitely hits the hardest of any Sniper Rifle, so preumably that's what the Corpus got out of making a slower Projectile, that it's more effective on target.
not to mention that whatever field is containing that Projectile, is giving it pretty incredible penetrative properties.

[nslay]

16 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i don't think we'd expect to make a solid object out of it, but that it would be like a Laser, just effectively endcapped by some form of field that loops it back in on itself. so being able to apply very high Energy to cut with it like a Laser already does, but in a different form.
which is why i'm not sure a Laser Bolt Gun or anything of that sort really has much benefits, since if you can fire a pulse wouldn't a continuous emission just be better but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

take a look at the Stats, though? those depict the tale. Lanka definitely hits the hardest of any Sniper Rifle, so preumably that's what the Corpus got out of making a slower Projectile, that it's more effective on target.
not to mention that whatever field is containing that Projectile, is giving it pretty incredible penetrative properties.

Doesn't matter how hard it hits if it's hard to land and misses. It's perfectly usable for normal missions since enemies are usually < 50m away. But forget about hitting something moving inconsistently 200m away... Not that you would need to do that anyway. The Vulkar Wraith is pretty darn good with Lasting Purity mod (separate 1.6 damage multiplier for using the scope) and it hits instantly at the pull of the trigger.

And all the snipers have at least a 1m punch through built-in, even the Vulkar Wraith. Snipetron Vandal has whopping innate 3m punch through!

Anyway, I like both Vulkar Wraith and Lanka. I have invested heavily in both and have used both in/outside of Eidolons.

[taiiat]

11 minutes ago, nslay said:

Doesn't matter how hard it hits if it's hard to land and misses. It's perfectly usable for normal missions since enemies are usually < 50m away. But forget about hitting something moving inconsistently 200m away... Not that you would need to do that anyway.

a matter of taste, certainly. i enjoy Sniping Dargyns and Et Cetera with Lanka, but it's not for everyone.

though ultimately i generally would suggest that Projectiles may feel strange to people because few games include inheriting Parent Velocity to Projectiles, when that's how reality works and then presumably that would be more intuitive for most people.

Edited June 26, 2019 by taiiat

[TARINunit9]

On 2019-06-23 at 10:49 PM, 844448 said:

If you've tried corpus weapons and some of the tenno weapons, you might feel that the projectiles are pretty slow and you need to lead the shots and you can easily move away from the projectiles when fighting corpus. Am I the only one that wish projectiles are faster? And this can be another scaling for corpus where higher level means faster projectiles, requiring you to be more active

This is a classic video game trope, going back as far as Doom: hitscan weak but easy, projectiles slow but strong. The need to lead your shots so heavily (compared to real life) is by design

This is reflected in Warframe constantly. Check these tables:

Spoiler

Hitscan: Gorgon 25 damage, Gorgon Wraith 27 damage, Gorgon Prisma 23 damage

Projectile: Supra and Supra Vandal 40 damage

Hitscan: Corinth 540 damage

Projectile: Arca Plasmor 600 damage

Hitscan: Vectis crit chance 25%

Projectile: Dread crit chance 50%

Hitscan: Karak 29 damage, Karak Wraith 31 damage

Projectile: Dera 30 damage, Dera Vandal 32 damage

This is even carried over to the enemies (or it used to be, before the Corpus got nerfed), where the Grineer can barely scratch you but also cannot be dodged, while the Corpus and Corrupted can (or could) push your rectum right in but quick maneuvering could dodge most of their shots

[Renegade343]

15 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

This is a classic video game trope, going back as far as Doom: hitscan weak but easy, projectiles slow but strong. The need to lead your shots so heavily (compared to real life) is by design

This is reflected in Warframe constantly. Check these tables: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Hitscan: Gorgon 25 damage, Gorgon Wraith 27 damage, Gorgon Prisma 23 damage

Projectile: Supra and Supra Vandal 40 damage

Hitscan: Corinth 540 damage

Projectile: Arca Plasmor 600 damage

Hitscan: Vectis crit chance 25%

Projectile: Dread crit chance 50%

Hitscan: Karak 29 damage, Karak Wraith 31 damage

Projectile: Dera 30 damage, Dera Vandal 32 damage

This is even carried over to the enemies (or it used to be, before the Corpus got nerfed), where the Grineer can barely scratch you but also cannot be dodged, while the Corpus and Corrupted can (or could) push your rectum right in but quick maneuvering could dodge most of their shots

I think comparing a sniper to a bow is a bit misleading at best, and the comparison with assault rifles shows even more than the Dera and Dera Vandal could gain a bit more of a buff.

[TaylorsContraction]

On 2019-06-24 at 2:07 PM, nslay said:

I love how energy weapons are slower than projectile weapons. The energy beams should be invisible and travel at the speed of light. I guess if the energy weapons were realistic, it would be more confusing... "Ready the lasers number 1! Fire!" ... Camera pans to target and we see/hear nothing and then the target explodes out of no where. Talk about cheaper special effects!

So yeah, that Lanka should be a better long range sniper than ones that use bullets. Wait, can solar wind mess up your shot?

energy weapons by no means implies lasers though.  i would categorize most energy weapons as either firing contained plasma in a  copropagating magnetic field, or accelerated slugs as in mini rail guns.  similar logic can be applied to beam weapons which would explain their short range.

And yes I think projectiles are too slow.

[SaidTheRogue]

On 2019-06-24 at 1:03 AM, Syasob said:

If you've never met people who use the mod it doesn't mean that we don't exist.

And in case you didn't know, this mod also increases damage falloff distance and range limit - pretty good for many weapons, especially when you think about bringing them to large open locations like PoE, OV and new Gas City.

yes, except, if youre gonna be out in wide open areas such as vallis, then projectile weapons arent what you should use, period. theyre just not appropriate for the environment. trying to turn fish eggs into caviar isnt always the right choice.

hitscan > projectile, plain and simple. there are times when projectile is whats called for, such as synergy with frame abilities or "blanketing" narrow areas against hard to hit targets blahblah.. but the whole projectile vs hitscan thing has been rehashed to death over and over across several years and a couple dozen games or so now.

with that said, i always have a hitscan weapon with me at all times, cuz sometimes theres just something pretty far away that you need to be able to reliably shoot in the face. yet i love my dera vandal and prisma gremlins, i just use them when it makes sense. point being, projectile weaponry only occasionally makes sense. just the way it is.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2019-06-24 at 1:49 AM, 844448 said:

If you've tried corpus weapons and some of the tenno weapons, you might feel that the projectiles are pretty slow and you need to lead the shots and you can easily move away from the projectiles when fighting corpus. Am I the only one that wish projectiles are faster? And this can be another scaling for corpus where higher level means faster projectiles, requiring you to be more active

And, a meme I made back then about this

Welcome to new new Speed Frame’s 2nd Ability:  Terminal Kinetics!

All casting powers and ballistic weapons with a flight speed component will see increases of:

lvl 1:  10%

lvl 2:  20%

lvl 3:  30%

Power Strength modifies!

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Renegade343 said:

I think comparing a sniper to a bow is a bit misleading at best

Long range, single shot, 200+ base damage, crit-based, innate punch-through, purple ammo type

There's my logic on comparing them

[Renegade343]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

Long range, single shot, 200+ base damage, crit-based, innate punch-through, purple ammo type

There's my logic on comparing them

I would just compare sniper vs. sniper because bows do function different enough from snipers (for example, more accurate hipfire relatively).