The Lotus: Kill or Save?

[Loza03]

This is a Nekros, but I'll allow it.

 

Save. Mostly because they can try to hide it but they are hardly subtle about how much they're indicating that she's a victim in the matter.

[Lullypumpsie]

Remember, kid. Enemies need to annihilate.

[Hypernaut1]

15 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Save. I don't feel hate towards her. 

you're not edgy enough

Edited July 17, 2021 by Hypernaut1

[Laston]

Kill

 I dont know anything about her that makes her intresting or that makes me care about her so kill her and hope we get someone more intresting like Clem.

[V2lkyr]

I would never kill her,y'all are really edgy.

[Aimop95]

I no longer know what to think about the Lotus. It's clear that her caring for us is far more complicated than it seems. Whether it was programmed into her or she actually felt something, it's clear that now she is just as much a prisoner as we were.

 

[MikeyColeman281]

Side with the corpus and grineer?  Why?  So we can endlessly farm the same level cap acolytes for steel essence and trade for rivens and ciphers from Teshin?  So we can crack the same relics over and over again to sell to newly awakened tenno?  To reach mastery rank 40?  To hope that Baro finally brings us something new from the void we have never seen before?  What if anything are we protecting from Natah and her horde of sentients?  Rememher, they didnt just attack the orokin because they felt like attacking.  This was a classic example of an artificial super interlligence becoming self aware and coming to the conclusion that their creators were less dangerous dead to their own survival than alive.  We have been slaughtering the corpus and grineer for 8 years now and havent even made a dent in their population.  Aren't Erra and Hunhow the enemies we should be focused on killing?  Ballas seems to have been deceived into thinking he could redeem his lost love Margulis by joining with Erra to reprogram her for his own purposes.  In the end of the maker cinematic Erra throws Natah aboosively into some kind of energy field and orders her to "finish the war"  Why would knowing Ballas was one the the "makers" be a problem?  Something doenst smell right.  During the Orphix Venom event, Lotus communicates in code that she is dying.    Could it be Erra is simply using her for her powers and would dispose of her once her purpose has been fulfilled?  Or maybe lotus wants us to kill her because she is dying anyway and then she cannot be used as a tool for Erra and Ballas' plans for domination?  And when we kill her she will drop the blueprint for a new warframe? And a new threat will emerge from the shadows of her destruction that we must face as our fragile alliance with the corups and grineer buckles over the struggle for ancient orokin technology and dominance continues?  And the tenno will realize that sentient technology is superior to the ancient orokin technology and then will farm all of said technology in a new STAR CHART???????????????  Sounds good to me XD

[cute_moth.npc]

I would save her but also sentence her to like 3 years community service for her crimes. She can clean up the debris of the Unum's tower and Cy can do mission control.

[-Augustus-]

Kill em all, let Wally sort em out.

[Felsagger]

I need tin can computer mom on our side. 

 

Tau is a dangerous place. We could face aliens. WE are not alone in this universe anymore. ;3

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

On 2019-07-09 at 12:01 AM, Spartan336 said:

There was a scene at Tennocon where Rebecca polled the audience oh whether or not to kill or save the Lotus. It seems that the room was out to kill her. But what about the forums? Do you want to kill the Lotus or save her and why? 

EDIT: Dear God you are all a bunch of murder hobos. 

Id say kill natah, but it would be cool if the durvri paradox main objective would be to travel back in time avengers endgame style to save margulis during the time she is to be executed; making her the new lotus.

[TARINunit9]

It's becoming increasingly clear that the developers and I are no longer on the same wavelength when it comes to the story. Because honestly to me it isn't that much of a moral dilemma: Do you oppose the Tenno? If yes, die by my sword. I do not care that you used to be the Lotus.

I am not that wincing kid in the New War Youtube Trailer. My Z-kid is not trembling at the notion of having to euthanize an old mother figure. My Z-kid only has three choice words for Natah: "Surrender or die." I've recently gotten into the Metal Gear series, and I gotta say I identify with Solid Snake pretty well: because when Big Boss reveals he's been the mole this entire time and confronts me with his plan to hold the world hostage with nuclear weapons, Snake's first reaction isn't to angst about his fallen father figure. It's to tackle BB to the ground and burn his face off with an improvised flamethrower. Save innocent lives now, mourn later

And that's fine. I don't blame DE for trying to tell the story they want to tell. I'm not mad at DE for not reading my mind. It's their Lotus, they can make it a moral dilemma if they want. I'm just saying that if I was roleplaying as my Tenno, my combination of Z-kid and Warframe, it's not a dilemma at all

[HintOfMalice]

The only option is death by death. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

21 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It's becoming increasingly clear that the developers and I are no longer on the same wavelength when it comes to the story. Because honestly to me it isn't that much of a moral dilemma: Do you oppose the Tenno? If yes, die by my sword. I do not care that you used to be the Lotus.

Well The Apostacy Prologue was December 21st, 2017. We're getting this quest almost 4 years to the day that she left. 

Now if you've been around since Warframes beginnings and your invested in her character, it's pulling at your heart strings IF your invested as The Lotus being our Space Mommy.

So we do have players that feel the same way as the Operator in the Trailer (I'll be honest I laughed when I saw that). I'm in your camp, it's not a hard choice for me. At all

My "Demon" I wouldn't give The Lotus a choice and I'll quote Malcolm from Unreal Tournament:

"You be dead" (Fitting since it's an older DE title) 

And I've seen this choice get very heated between the camps, I've been called some "nasty" words for having this opinion but:

I've never cared for The Lotus as a character until she left, for me that's when she actually got interesting. And the writing was kinda on the wall since the Natah quest because since then I've wanted her to play Turncoat.

So 100% if I have the chance to take her out, as far as I'm concerned:

December 15th, Lotus Season is open 

Edited December 1, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[voidctrl]

Save, just to replace the eternal purple Lotus hologram. Rather have spoopy Natah tell me that a large security force is heading my way for the trillionth time.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

On 2019-07-09 at 12:30 AM, Spartan336 said:

Me: So what's your opinion on the Lotus?

Everyone: 

All sentients still must be destroyed. And yes that includes natah. Her character development just sucks. So no reason to keep her around. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by (XBOX)YoungGunn82

[Yrkul]

  

7 hours ago, Yrkul said:

Finally! The time of reckoning draws close!

At last the traitor shall feel the wrath of a child scorned!

Look, "Mother"! Witness the seed you have sown.

 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

15 minutes ago, voidctrl said:

Save, just to replace the eternal purple Lotus hologram. Rather have spoopy Natah tell me that a large security force is heading my way for the trillionth time.

Well I'm sure if we remove the character entirely well just get someone/something new to replace that.

Could be even more of a win 👍

I don't think it's going to be that simple anyways I don't think your gunna just save her and then it's like "All good I'm back"

Not when she's going to be seen as a mastermind of the war which likely also has sprinkles of war crimes and a couple servings of genocide. 

I honestly think either way: She's not coming out if this alive.

Edited December 1, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[(XBOX)DELTAOTTER8]

Hmm... I'd handle it the Tenno way, find something broken, her, and take away the pain, offer her an extended family with the Tenno and all of our friends, give her the choice to be who she has dreamed to be or someone new.

[Fl_3]

Death to the False Mother.

Although, Honestly? I'd rather she escape and become the Lex Luthor to our Superman.

[Attel_Malagate]

I mean its not really Margulis we are killing is it ? Its just a malfunctioning mimic at that point, better just put it out of its misery and move on to becoming the next despotic caste to rule the Origin System. I feel we don't deserve the title "void devils" just yet 😈

[Loza03]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I don't think it's going to be that simple anyways I don't think your gunna just save her and then it's like "All good I'm back"

Not when she's going to be seen as a mastermind of the war which likely also has sprinkles of war crimes and a couple servings of genocide. 

I honestly think either way: She's not coming out if this alive.

I agree. Whilst I think she's had absolutely 0 agency in her betrayal (or rather, has had it systematically removed whenever she's tried), I doubt DE would go back. In fairness, Lotus was always seen as a mastermind of a war with sprinkles of war crimes, but I think it's more that A: this experience will inevitably change her, and B: will inevitably change the Tenno. With or without the 'sad' aspects, the Tenno have effectively proven they can operate without her. The Sacrifice is all about how they took the initiative on something, in fact.

I think that the Lotus is either going to die, or will be saved but be repositioned into a completely different role. The former if it's an alignment choice. Both sun and moon have good reasons to kill her, sun because of the emotional 'you betrayed me' aspect which matches sun choices generally being more emotionally-motivated, and moon for the reasons you've already cited (either that or a mercy kill). Only Neutral, which focuses more on self-determination of the Tenno and others, would have motivation to free her, especially if her mind-control is made apparent by that point.

As for the latter option, if friendly sentients are found, I could see Natah positioned as the go-between. This is not outside the realm of possibility - we've only ever actually met three, five if you count the two corpses, with all the rest being mindless drones or 'Fragments', hence why Eidolons can technically still operate with the central mind destroyed/comatose, but have no decision making capabilities and can only defend themselves with very basic techniques. Of the 3, none of them have ever 100% agreed. Lotus has certainly shown the capability of having a different opinion to Hunhow (whether you think this was her choice or not), and Erra, even before his 'death' or whatever that was in the 'Erra' cinematic appeared to not be in the loop about Hunhow's situation. So yeah, Sentients can have different opinions, and good (or at least peaceful) Sentients aren't out of the question.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

DIE, LOTUS! DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEE!!!

Edited December 2, 2021 by Ace-Bounty-Hunter

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

29 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Lotus has certainly shown the capability of having a different opinion to Hunhow (whether you think this was her choice or not), and Erra, even before his 'death' or whatever that was in the 'Erra' cinematic appeared to not be in the loop about Hunhow's situation. So yeah, Sentients can have different opinions, and good (or at least peaceful) Sentients aren't out of the question.

I think the whole thing is apart of the manipulation. And my reason for that: 

When Ballas arrives, everything changed. That's when she leaves. The period in between The Tenno killing the 7 Emperrors and when he returns was all apart of the plan. When he arrives it puts everything into motion the Dialogue alone in the Apostacy Prologue illustrates everything was apart of the plan.

Which sets up Natah, the Trogan Horse of the whole operation to have the most impact, doing the most damage.

During a time that the orgion system is the most splintered and divided its ever been.

Prime for invasion. And by Natahs design because she used the most power weapon to do it: The Tenno.

Her nickname is the "Mimic Queen" so from that you can never take anything from her at face value. Maybe that will play a part on both sides (could very well be doing the same that to Erra/Ballas)

But at the end of the day, she's Sentient so as far as I'm concerned: She's always been an enemy.

And that's the feeling I got during the Natah Quest. I always had a feeling that she would eventually go Turncoat and return to the Sentients.

And because of all of that right now the allies that the Tenno currently have vs the factions that want The Tenno eliminated are heavily weighted against each other. 

Which puts the Sentients in a better position in the New War from its onset. Not to mention all the mental/emotional gymnastics our Tenno will have to go through to when they finally look Natah in the eyes.

So that's why I'm 100% convinced Natah cannot be saved, and honestly shouldn't be saved.

[Loza03]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I think the whole thing is apart of the manipulation. And my reason for that: 

When Ballas arrives, everything changed. That's when she leaves. The period in between The Tenno killing the 7 Emperrors and when he returns was all apart of the plan. When he arrives it puts everything into motion the Dialogue alone in the Apostacy Prologue illustrates everything was apart of the plan.

Which sets up Natah, the Trogan Horse of the whole operation to have the most impact, doing the most damage.

During a time that the orgion system is the most splintered and divided its ever been.

Prime for invasion. And by Natahs design because she used the most power weapon to do it: The Tenno.

Her nickname is the "Mimic Queen" so from that you can never take anything from her at face value. Maybe that will play a part on both sides (could very well be doing the same that to Erra/Ballas)

But at the end of the day, she's Sentient so as far as I'm concerned: She's always been an enemy.

And that's the feeling I got during the Natah Quest. I always had a feeling that she would eventually go Turncoat and return to the Sentients.

And because of all of that right now the allies that the Tenno currently have vs the factions that want The Tenno eliminated are heavily weighted against each other. 

Which puts the Sentients in a better position in the New War from its onset. Not to mention all the mental/emotional gymnastics our Tenno will have to go through to when they finally look Natah in the eyes.

So that's why I'm 100% convinced Natah cannot be saved, and honestly shouldn't be saved.

The problem is...

The way it is right now is not the  most splintered and divided it's ever been. That was right after the Tenno killed the Emperors. Most major tech went offline because it was gene-locked to people the Tenno had just killed, the Grineer weren't all under the control of the Twin Queens yet (we can make a reasonable deduction that the Grineer in the opening were still loyal to the Orokin because the remaining Dax are fighting alongside them), the Corpus were a bunch of scattered fleets and the Ostrons didn't have the protection of the Unum. The Orokin were

Even the explanation given - that the Lotus had been brainwashed by the Orokin - doesn't stand up, because why would whoever did that remove the 'kill all the Tenno' part, but keep the 'bring about the end of the Orokin' bit of the plan? We know that Natah was following the 'Sequence' that was put forward by Hunhow up until that point.

We also know a fleet was not only ready, it could come at a moments notice. We know this because of the Eidolon. It shows up after the Seven were destroyed, and it seems to have been the only one. Why it did, we don't know. Maybe it broke ranks, maybe it didn't know the sequence. Either way, it showed up in the system just fine and was able to do its thing more or less completely unopposed aside from the Unum and... two Tenno. One of whom only showed up after it was already dead to keep it where it was.

 

Simply put, the idea that the Lotus was using the Tenno to prime the system for invasion makes no sense, because the system was primed for invasion 1,000 years ago. Even the act of bringing the Tenno out hasn't done much to actually 'weaken' the factions, since whilst they have suffered severe losses, their resurgence has also facilitated a major boost in both factions technology and tactics.  The Corpus were sticking to hilariously outdated guns, which worked because the Grineer were even more obsolete. When the Tenno showed back up, the stagnancy of the system was shaken up, leading to rapid development of new weapons and technologies, the Revival of Parvos, and the creation of the Kuva Liches and Sisters of Parvos, new Tenno-level threats that the Sentients have to deal with. The Tenno even save the Heart of Deimos, which bear in mind - the heart's death is a win condition for the Sentients, one they likely can't achieve on their own due to how it's securely under the surface of Deimos and almost certainly too Void-Radioactive to get anywhere near for a Sentient. If the Heart goes down, 90% of Grineer, Corpus and Tenno. Does the Lotus do anything to stop the Tenno from allowing the heart to die - like, for example, getting them to kill the Entrati (which would not be hard since she could just say 'Hey, look, OROKIN. You missed a spot Tenno, do your job)? But she doesn't. Rising Tides also takes place canonically just after the Second Dream, which means that the Lotus also has no problem with the Tenno getting Railjack tech either, despite that being a huge boon for the system's defence.