Why are new deluxe skins scrambled up?

[Jarriaga]

Some months ago I questioned why Khora was getting that deluxe skin. People pointed out the thorns and roses can fit her, but I didn't really see it over a spider motif and would have preferred if it was given to Saryn or made into its own frame.

This was without even considering that just Limbo deluxe looks more appropriate to Revenant due to its Sentient design and Revenant being the Eidolon-inspired frame:

 

Now at TennoCon, we got a Harrow deluxe that looks more appropriate for Limbo with the ethereal energy floating body parts motif, which is reminiscent of something out of this plane of existence:

 

We then got threads with people mentioning Ivara Deluxe doesn't feel like Ivara. And I agree. This whole asymmetrical "Gemini" motif reminds me a lot more of Equinox than Ivara. Having a hunting pouch with arrows and knives doesn't override the rest of the design. It could easily be Gara as well:




We also got an undead mummy design that is somehow not Inaros, but rather Ash:

And then there's that Excalibur skin which is somehow not for Baruuk with how laid back it looks or even Ash:

 

I know deluxe skins are meant to be a different take on an existing frame and all of these have been approved by Geoff, who is the art director and the one with the final word, but in previous deluxe skins I could see the base frame. I could easily tell "Yes, that's Trinity/Nidus/Nezha/Oberon/Frost/Atlas alright" in general right away without being told which frame it was underneath the deluxe skin. I can no longer do that with these.

It seems they are getting scrambled for the sake of being as different and getting as far away from the main model as it can get for the sake of it. I wish someone would have asked him (Geoff) the design intention for these back in the TennoCon art panel because it's just puzzling. They are beautiful designs. I just don't see the frames they are supposed to link to. Inaros is the "mummy" frame. You may call me close-minded, but unless a second mummy frame is made I think all mummy or undead Egyptian-looking skins (Outside TennoGen) should belong to Inaros, not Ash. Baruuk is the laid-back reluctant warrior, the "don't mess with me unless you want to get cut. I'm just passing by" type, not Excalibur.

Any possibility for someone from the art team to comment on this? I'd really like to understand the train of thought that results in "What if Ash looked like Inaros?" instead of "What are other ninja motifs we can explore with Ash"?
 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Rawbeard]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

deluxe skins are meant to be a different take on an existing frame

that's where all of this stops. you had the answer all along.

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

that's where all of this stops. you had the answer all along.

So there's no overton window of appropriate themes and anything goes? A Volcano/Phoenix Frost and a Tundra/Polar Bear Ember themes are appropriate just because they are different? Octopus Zephyr and Falcon Hydroid as well?

Edited July 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[WhiteMarker]

So because you have a different taste, you say that the Deluxe Skins don't work for their Warframe?

I find all the Deluxe Skins quite fitting. Does this mean you are wrong? No. It just means that you have a different taste. That's all there is to this thread.

End of the story.

[Jarriaga]

On 2019-07-10 at 11:47 AM, WhiteMarker said:

So because you have a different taste, you say that the Deluxe Skins don't work for their Warframe?

I find all the Deluxe Skins quite fitting. Does this mean you are wrong? No. It just means that you have a different taste. That's all there is to this thread.

End of the story.

I would kindly ask you why you believe Limbo's skin works best on Limbo rather than Revenant, or how the new Ash skin works better on Ash and not Inaros.

Take into consideration the Warframe's powers and even their default animations (Both agile and noble). Does that skin for Ash look like a character that would stand with a pose looking for a fight? Or like a character that would stand like a decaying mummy?

A matter of taste? Sure, but character design goes beyond the model alone. The sounds, the animations, the powers and abilities. The character background and lore. Hence I'd ask you the same question I asked the Tenno above: Do you consider a Volcano/Phoenix Frost and a Tundra/Polar Bear Ember themes to be appropriate? How about Octopus Zephyr or Falcon Hydroid?

Edited July 12, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Dhrekr]

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

So there's no overton window of appropriate themes and anything goes? A Volcano/Phoenix Frost and Tundra/Polar Bear Ember themes are appropriate just because they are different?

No, they are not appropriate "just because they are different".

They could be appropriate because they are interesting and distinctive, "despite" being very different.

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

No, they are not appropriate "just because they are different".

They could be appropriate because they are interesting and distinctive, "despite" being very different.

Interesting and distinctive do not automatically fall outside an overton window.

I'll reformulate my question now taking your observation into account: Do you consider a Volcano/Phoenix Frost and a Tundra/Polar Bear Ember themes to be appropriate for a Deluxe skin? How about Octopus Zephyr or Falcon Hydroid?

Take into consideration the Warframe's powers and even their default animations (Both agile and noble) before you answer. Character design goes beyond the model alone. The sounds, the animations, the powers and abilities. The character background and lore.

Does that skin for Ash look like a character that would stand with a pose looking for a fight (Ash agile) or proudly boasting (Ash noble)? Or like a character that would stand like a decaying mummy (Inaros either)?

Edited July 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Do you consider a Volcano/Phoenix Frost and a Tundra/Polar Bear Ember themes to be appropriate? How about Octopus Zephyr or Falcon Hydroid?

Actually, a parrot Hydroid would be both ironic and hilarious.

[peterc3]

29 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I know deluxe skins are meant to be a different take on an existing frame

This is clearly not true because of the wall of text you wrote before it.

8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Do you consider a Volcano/Phoenix Frost and a Tundra/Polar Bear Ember themes to be appropriate? How about Octopus Zephyr or Falcon Hydroid?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryovolcano

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Interesting and distinctive do not automatically fall outside an overton window.

If your issue is shoehorning odd themes into already existing frames with the Deluxe skins, why are you bending the concept of the Overton window to the breaking point by applying it to video game skins?

Edited July 10, 2019 by peterc3

[Jarriaga]

Just now, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Actually, a parrot Hydroid would be both ironic and hilarious.

Sure it would be ironic and hilarious.

Would it be appropriate though?

Even in the main stage Steve forbid Rebecca from using pink on the ship because they want for the game to be taken seriously up to a certain degree. Turning a character into a meme would fall outside that.

[rapt0rman]

None of the frames in your first post are polar opposites of their original theme, only slightly different takes of the same overarching theme.

[Dhrekr]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I'll reformulate my question now taking your observation into account: Do you consider a Volcano/Phoenix Frost and a Tundra/Polar Bear Ember themes to be appropriate for a Deluxe skin? How about Octopus Zephyr or Falcon Hydroid?

Oh wow are still here? I thought it was clear, but I'll spell it out.

If these skins were beautiful and interesting, yes.

 

Please reformulate your question once again so that I can again tell you "yes and I see no problem with this".

 

Besides, your argument is just all desperately one-sided. You have, for instance, looked at Excalibur's concept and thought "Baruuk". I see nothing of that. 0%. You are not the judge of how I see and understand deluxe skins. To you it might look like a Falcon Hydroid, to me it might look like a Shark Hydroid - it is abundantly clear that we disagree on what skins look like.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Dhrekr

[WhiteMarker]

10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I would kindly ask you why you belive Limbo's skin works best on Limbo rather than Revenant, or how the new Ash skin works better on Ash and not Inaros.

I don't have to explain anything. It's my taste. I like it the way it is. I would even like it if other frames had these skins.

Let me ask you this do you know what taste means?

[Jarriaga]

7 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is clearly not true because of the wall of text you wrote before it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryovolcano

If your issue is shoehorning odd themes into already existing frames with the Deluxe skins, why are you bending the concept of the Overton window to the breaking point by applying it to video game skins?

1) An overton window allows for polar extremes within that window.

2) I will concede here. Fair enough.

3) I am not bending the concept of the overton window unless taken literally to its meaning in public discourse usage. Replace the word or the term if you must to whatever equals "exploring a theme while allowing it to remain recognizable and cohesive to the original concept without clashing with something else that could explore the new theme better".

Edited July 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

9 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

None of the frames in your first post are polar opposites of their original theme, only slightly different takes of the same overarching theme.

I don't even see them as polar opposites, but completely misplaced. I see other frames in them rather than the ones they are intended to.

The Ash one for example. If you could see Ash in there rather than Inaros then more power to you.

[Jarriaga]

21 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Oh wow are still here? I thought it was clear, but I'll spell it out.

If these skins were beautiful and interesting, yes.

 

Please reformulate your question once again so that I can again tell you "yes and I see no problem with this".

 

Besides, your argument is just all desperately one-sided. You have, for instance, looked at Excalibur's concept and thought "Baruuk". I see nothing of that. 0%. You are not the judge of how I see and understand deluxe skins. To you it might look like a Falcon Hydroid, to me it might look like a Shark Hydroid - it is abundantly clear that we disagree on what skins look like.

I don't see how beautiful and interesting would need to translate to Ash looking like Inaros. My issue is not the skins, but who they are assigned to. I have no issues with the designs per se.

More power to you if you do not see a problem with this. I do. Call me a purist. Call me closed-minded. I see Baruuk in that Excalibur skin because of how laid back it looks, which fits more into the type of frame Baruuk is in both lore and abilities. While I am not the judge of how you see the skins (Nor did I claim to be), I can see themes that would not even need for the frames to be named to categorize them. Hence why I mentioned I could see Trinity/Nidus/Nezha/Oberon/Frost/Atlas in their Deluxe skins without needing to be told which skin belongs to which frame. I can't do that here. More power to you if you can.

And no, I am not referring to what may look like a Shark/Falcon Hydroid in my example. I am referring to full flown wings and feathers, because it's different and beautiful. Agree to disagree then.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

17 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

I don't have to explain anything. It's my taste. I like it the way it is. I would even like it if other frames had these skins.

Let me ask you this do you know what taste means?

If you would like it if other frames had those skins then we are in a fundamental disagreement with no middle ground.

My taste is rather limited compared to yours. More power to you.

I like it better when I can tell and identify what I'm looking at on its own, like the older deluxe skins, which I didn't need to look at the labels to know who they belonged to.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Dhrekr]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

More power to you if you do not see a problem with this. I do. Call me a purist. Call me closed-minded

I am not going to call you anything but this is a problem that you are making for yourself.

It is abundantly clear that you have decided to have a problem with this and that we can't talk you out of it. But equally you cannot convince us that this should be a problem for us. It is not a problem for me and your purism isn't contagious at all.

So... yeah, feel free to stay here and invent increasingly lunatic scenarios ("what if a Hydroid deluxe skin looked like a Falcon/Vulcan/Screwdriver") that have nothing to do with what is happening. You aren't going to cause any reaction in most of us except slight amusement.

I will be eagerly waiting to rock that Excalibur skin on my Excalibur. I'm personally a big fan of Liger, and this new concept is just amazing.

[Tsamu]

These designs still have to be approved by DE so they must fit the frames somehow. Rather than being "scrambled," it's more likely that the designs are just making references you're not seeing. I'd like it if we could get a little blog post by the artists to accompany new skin releases, it'd be interesting to hear what they were thinking during the design process. I'll offer a couple of my takes:

I posted on another Ivara deluxe thread about my thoughts on her design but the half-tone is a reference to kyudo archers and the samurai feel might be inspired by Hachiman, a god of war and archery worshipped by samurai.

I think the real theme of Limbo's deluxe is Eastern magic vs. Western magic. Limbo's default is a stage magician, but the deluxe looks like a Taoist with the hat, draping ropes and flowing sleeves. I remember seeing on a lot of discussions the resemblance to a jiangshi, a corpse controlled by magic through the paper talisman on its face. It just has an eidolon artstyle because that was the hot new aesthetic the art team was working with at the time. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Tsamu

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, Tsamu said:

These designs still have to be approved by DE so they must fit the frames somehow. Rather than being "scrambled," it's more likely that the designs are just making references you're not seeing. I'd like it if we could get a little blog post by the artists to accompany new skin releases, it'd be interesting to hear what they were thinking during the design process. I'll offer a couple of my takes:

I posted on another Ivara deluxe thread about my thoughts on her design but the half-tone is a reference to kyudo archers and the samurai feel might be inspired by Hachiman, a god of war and archery worshipped by samurai.

I think the real theme of Limbo's deluxe is Eastern magic rather than Western magic. Limbo's default is a stage magician, but the deluxe looks like a Taoist with the hat, draping ropes and flowing sleeves. I remember seeing on a lot of discussions the resemblance to a jiangshi, a corpse animated by magic through the paper talisman on its face. It just has an eidolon artstyle because that was the hot new aesthetic the art team was working with at the time. 

Now these are explanations I can accept. Thank you.

I agree a blog post on the thought process for a deluxe skin would certainly help understand what Geoff and his team were going for.

[Valiant]

Bigger question - why isn't Frost getting a second deluxe skin? ;<

[Yxivi]

I'm all for "thematic consistency" and I'm also kinda 😕 about the new deluxe skins. You can achieve "uniqueness" and still tie it close to the frame, like the Corpra Excalibur skin, although it's tennogen but still, Excal and Corpus doesn't seem to mix but you know in one look that the frame is Excalibur because some of its features. Those "features" I think, is what we're missing on the new deluxe skins so they feel "off".
^{And no don't tell me "well duh! Because Tennogen can only use the base model so there's not much they can change on the model". It's not just the model, it's the "characteristics" of the frame.}
It just feels rambo jumbo now and while I know there's nothing we can do about it, it would really be interesting to know the thought process behind it.

It is to be different and unique, ofc, however as I said before, you can achieve different and unique design without losing the frames' identity. 

[Jarriaga]

8 hours ago, Valiant said:

Bigger question - why isn't Frost getting a second deluxe skin? ;<

Well, it may only be a matter of time. Now that Nova is getting a second deluxe we can safely assume Nyx was not just a one time exception.

7 hours ago, Yxivi said:

I'm all for "thematic consistency" and I'm also kinda 😕 about the new deluxe skins. You can achieve "uniqueness" and still tie it close to the frame, like the Corpra Excalibur skin, although it's tennogen but still, Excal and Corpus doesn't seem to mix but you know in one look that the frame is Excalibur because some of its features. Those "features" I think, is what we're missing on the new deluxe skins so they feel "off".
^{And no don't tell me "well duh! Because Tennogen can only use the base model so there's not much they can change on the model". It's not just the model, it's the "characteristics" of the frame.}
It just feels rambo jumbo now and while I know there's nothing we can do about it, it would really be interesting to know the thought process behind it.

It is to be different and unique, ofc, however as I said before, you can achieve different and unique design without losing the frames' identity. 

That's my train of thought as well. I don't see the frame's identities in these designs, and it looks/feels even more off when taking into account the core frame's animations. That Ash deluxe doesn't look like a character that would stand in a boasting pose with hands crossed (Noble), or like a character that would pose like picking a fight (Agile), player taste aside.

Another poster mentioned earlier above that a blog post detailing the design intent would do wonders for helping tie the vision to the frame.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Jarriaga

[ExcaliburUmbra]

8 hours ago, Valiant said:

Bigger question - why isn't Frost getting a second deluxe skin? ;<

Asking the real questions around here.

[KokoroWish]

I really dislike Liger's designs. Too busy and incohesive. They don't really say Warframe too me. The Khora one is probably the best one they've done as far as having a cohesive theme goes, but there's just too many design elements that just scream for an editor to me.