Can something be done about Saryn?

[WoodedSkate89]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Why does damage output need to be proportional? 

I mean damage mitigation certainly isn't, I could never facetank the Profit Taker with Nova but Inaros can go the whole fight without flinching, not even trying to dodge attacks. I mean I could say that certainly isn't fair because what if I wanted my Saryn to be able to face tank the profit taker? 

Nuke frames are as all things a tool to facilitate a playstyle. In this instance killing things as fast and efficiently as possible. 

Having a different preferred is totally fine, just don't play or group with a Saryn. 

I know it can be a bit of a pain to have to leave a group because there is a frame you don't like but there is a frame or set of frames that each of us hate. 

 

For me, it's Nezha, Limbo and Mesa.. 

Nezha because people tend to be obnoxious when they play him always being well outside of affinity range while they Firewalk everything on the map. Any "leveling" map and a Nezha.... hard pass from me 90% of the time, cause that's exactly what they do. So if I was going to yeet one frame into space it would be Nezha before Saryn because at least Saryns know how to share, even if it's only Affinity.  

Limbos are touch and go because a good limbo can be good and then there is the full map timestop limbo that brings everything to a crawl for no reason and on anything that isn't "wait out the clock" that's a problem. 

And Mesa, Mesas don't get a rhyme..... they're just boring. She's boring to play, she's boring to play with.....,

.....but at the same time I'm always free to leave, so for the most part I don't care that someone likes to play a super obnoxious Nezha or plays a bad Limbo or reads a book while they pilot a Mesa. 

The first sentence is just opinion. I know it's a dead game, but if you look at overwatch, you will see a fairly balanced game and system. DPS's aren't too OP and are in balance with tanks. Thats why I still like and play it to this day.

I feel like the bridge between DPS, tanks and suport frames has gone too far. Just my opinion. I know many others disagree.

 

I agree with the rest though. (Also I only use Mesa if I have stuff to level.)

[InfinitusPhoenix]

Looking at the number of pages she will get a nerf soon 100%

[WoodedSkate89]

Just now, InfinitusPhoenix said:

Looking at the number of pages she will get a nerf soon 100%

That would be true if it was full outrage. The opinions here are very mixed

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

And, see, here's why power of all kinds needs to be proportional to the game it's in. Nukes, immortals - those are examples of power not being proportional.

Again we are back to, why? 

Disproportionate abilities offer different playstyles and the end user is always in charge of the playstyle that they prefer. 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

You've literally out-and-out admitted you can completely invalidate the Profit-Taker boss fight. If you can't die, then it's not a fight, is it? That's supposed to be end-game content, and Inaros can basically nullify it entirely.

If ever there was a fight that deserved to be invalidated it is the Profit Taker fight, Tho interestingly enough based on how I've seen people classify challenge in the past, it wastes a non insignificant amount of my time therefore it is still "challenging" at least according to the "time required to complete = challenge" school of thought. Not that I agree with that and it's still a miserable fight but at least I never have to go back to it, until the next time Nightwave forces me to. 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

There's player characters entering roles, and then there's breaking the game. There's a lot of characters in games about killing things really fast. Rarely does it let them completely turn off the game for other players or render them entirely untouchable. Dynasty Warriors, a game WF is frequently compared to, throws enemies that can't be disregarded at the player all the time - captains, commanders and the like. The only equivalent in Warframe is Nullifiers, and they are only that way because they literally turn off half the combat system. They should be a rare and powerful threat kind of enemy, not something that is spammed frequently.

And yet I don't play Dynasty Warridors because I find it to be horrible and boring. 

Sooo just keep slathering the game with enemies that completely invalidate Warframe abilities and weapon effects until it's just what? Another run of the mill cover based shooter? 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

At least a part of the enemies should always be able to pose a threat in a game centred around combat. Combat is, after all, in large part about the threat, the 'puzzle' of how best to win the situation you're in with the tools you've got. If the player can't lose or can avoid actually encountering enemies (CC is counted in this, an enemy with AI turned off throughout the fight is not actually being encountered). It takes two to tango, as they say.

We already choose how you tackle the encounter based on the weapon and frames that you select and group with. You can do things the difficult way full of hard fought challenge or you can do things the easy way by leveraging more of the games mechanics. How do you think endurance runs get done? Cause it's by leveraging mechanics that break the game but people still consider the application to be a skill. 

Embrace the chaos, enjoy the ride and if you find a playstyle you don't like, don't engage with it but don't try to nerf it until it fit's into yours. 

I think the most frustrating thing in these forums (and this is a bit of a tangent) is reading complaints that the game is too easy, knowing full well that Warframe is a game where the player has full control of the difficulty. They are CHOOSING to play in a manor that they don't enjoy and then refusing to use the tools they HAVE at their disposal to play in a way they do. It's like watching someone with peanut allergies who just absolutely refuses to stop eating peanuts and keeps petitioning for a region wide peanut ban. 

Edit:

Or since I'm into tangential analogies the old Minecraft Forums back when I read them, there was almost always a thread about how Mojang NEEDED to nerf dirt blocks because someone was offended at the very notion that while they had build this huge stone castle of granditude, someone somewhere else, not even in their game.... was having just as much fun and all they built was but a lowly house out of dirt blocks. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Oreades

[InfinitusPhoenix]

23 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

That would be true if it was full outrage. The opinions here are very mixed

Mixed means a nerf. 

Players leave the game because of Saryn. DE will obviously nerf her. That's the only logical option.

[goatwin]

27 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Again we are back to, why? 

Disproportionate abilities offer different playstyles and the end user is always in charge of the playstyle that they prefer. 

If ever there was a fight that deserved to be invalidated it is the Profit Taker fight, Tho interestingly enough based on how I've seen people classify challenge in the past, it wastes a non insignificant amount of my time therefore it is still "challenging" at least according to the "time required to complete = challenge" school of thought. Not that I agree with that and it's still a miserable fight but at least I never have to go back to it, until the next time Nightwave forces me to. 

And yet I don't play Dynasty Warridors because I find it to be horrible and boring. 

Sooo just keep slathering the game with enemies that completely invalidate Warframe abilities and weapon effects until it's just what? Another run of the mill cover based shooter? 

We already choose how you tackle the encounter based on the weapon and frames that you select and group with. You can do things the difficult way full of hard fought challenge or you can do things the easy way by leveraging more of the games mechanics. How do you think endurance runs get done? Cause it's by leveraging mechanics that break the game but people still consider the application to be a skill. 

Embrace the chaos, enjoy the ride and if you find a playstyle you don't like, don't engage with it but don't try to nerf it until it fit's into yours. 

I think the most frustrating thing in these forums (and this is a bit of a tangent) is reading complaints that the game is too easy, knowing full well that Warframe is a game where the player has full control of the difficulty. They are CHOOSING to play in a manor that they don't enjoy and then refusing to use the tools they HAVE at their disposal to play in a way they do. It's like watching someone with peanut allergies who just absolutely refuses to stop eating peanuts and keeps petitioning for a region wide peanut ban. 

You stated that saryn shouldn't get nerfed because people should have the freedom of playing the way they want. Yes,  freedom of playstyle is important.  The problem is, saryn's ability to completely empty the map of any enemy distrupts every other player's playstyles. People wouldn't be against perma nuking abilities if it didn't force them to put down their controller/mouse and watch the clock tick. In fact, this forced a lot of my veteran friends into only playing solo for years.

And your statement that people should use the best tools they are given etc and ignore how broken they are is..  that's just an odd way of seeing it. It might be true for single player games,  but  a multiplayer? What's next? We should be allowed to use god-mode cheats because that's my playstyle? 

Edited August 7, 2019 by goatwin

[WoodedSkate89]

5 minutes ago, InfinitusPhoenix said:

Mixed means a nerf. 

Players leave the game because of Saryn. DE will obviously nerf her. That's the only logical option.

True. But salty saryn mains will leave the game if she gets nerfed

Edit: And honestly I don't care about saryn enough to leave the game. I'd just rather her be fixed.

Edited August 7, 2019 by WoodedSkate89

[sungod1]

1 minute ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

True. But salty saryn mains will leave the game if she gets nerfed

What if I told you people who main any frame do not know how to play the game correctly and should uninstall. 

[WoodedSkate89]

1 minute ago, sungod1 said:

What if I told you people who main any frame do not know how to play the game correctly and should uninstall. 

Not how it works... Think about your arguments before presenting.

Some frames require skill and others do not.

A frame with an "I Win" button does not require skill.

Frames which require harder builds and use of abilities. Do require skill.

 

Obviously 

[uAir]

3 hours ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

2 things.

1. If you cannot make a build to do well in ESO without some warframe that does everything for you. You are doing something wrong. Fact. That's pretty embarrassing. And a bit sad that you rely on carries like that to do everything for you

2. I'm not online right now. 

I need someone to carry me to level up my stuff. You said you can do it with skill with hildryn, rhino, and not using an aoe skill spam clear frame.

So please do. I want to see it. Because yes, I'm calling your bluff. We're both on PC, you can host. We'll pop into a duo ESO and I just want to see you non-aoe clear your way through 8 waves of ESO. For the sake of your viewpoint and to prove me wrong.

[Oreades]

7 minutes ago, goatwin said:

You stated that saryn shouldn't get nerfed because people should have the freedom of playing the way they want. Yes,  freedom of playstyle is important.  The problem is, saryn's ability to completely empty the map of any enemies distrupts every other player's playstyles. People wouldn't be against perma nuking abilities if it didn't force them to put down their controller/mouse and watch the clock tick. In fact, this forced a lot of my veteran friends into only playing solo for years.

You hardly need to play solo to play with people who don't disrupt your play style. 

Just roll another group and if the PUG groups have failed you still have two options that aren't solo. Hitting up LFG to find a group of like minded individuals or just play the game with the disruptive frame accepting the fact that you aren't going to get your way every time. 

I play with Mesas, don't particularly like em but whatever it's not like every group I play in has a Mesa in it or a Limbo or a Nezha. Hell I even PUG into SO/ESO groups that do just fine without a Saryn. 

Going solo is not the only option, your friend is choosing it. 

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

3 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Some frames require skill and others do not.

A frame with an "I Win" button does not require skill.

Frames which require harder builds and use of abilities. Do require skill.

I know I'm probably the worst judge of skill but what are these frames you are talking of?

[WoodedSkate89]

1 minute ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

I know I'm probably the worst judge of skill but what are these frames you are talking of?

Hildryn

Rhino

Frost

Oberon

Wukong

Zephyr

Wisp

 

You might disagree with some of those

[WoodedSkate89]

5 minutes ago, uAir said:

I need someone to carry me to level up my stuff. You said you can do it with skill with hildryn, rhino, and not using an aoe skill spam clear frame.

So please do. I want to see it. Because yes, I'm calling your bluff. We're both on PC, you can host. We'll pop into a duo ESO and I just want to see you non-aoe clear your way through 8 waves of ESO. For the sake of your viewpoint and to prove me wrong.

This guy really wants a carry lol.

I'm on a different game right now. I'm not coming online just to carry some MR6 or whatever

[goatwin]

16 minutes ago, Oreades said:

You hardly need to play solo to play with people who don't disrupt your play style. 

Just roll another group and if the PUG groups have failed you still have two options that aren't solo. Hitting up LFG to find a group of like minded individuals or just play the game with the disruptive frame accepting the fact that you aren't going to get your way every time. 

I play with Mesas, don't particularly like em but whatever it's not like every group I play in has a Mesa in it or a Limbo or a Nezha. Hell I even PUG into SO/ESO groups that do just fine without a Saryn. 

Going solo is not the only option, your friend is choosing it. 

Of course, there are other options. But i'm talking about the better option. The one where we don't need to constantly exit games or spend valuable time in lfg instead of playing: make it so no playstyle is at the cost of anybody elses playstyle.

Going solo is not the only option, some people might only see saryn a few times a week, but some others had to waste 2 hours of their time sitting around doing nothing because 8 out 10 of their sessions are filled with saryn

Edited August 7, 2019 by goatwin

[uAir]

6 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

This guy really wants a carry lol.

I'm on a different game right now. I'm not coming online just to carry some MR6 or whatever

IGN: uAir

I've added you. I want to see some real skill.

Edited August 7, 2019 by uAir

[WoodedSkate89]

2 minutes ago, uAir said:

IGN: uAir

I've added you. I want to see some real skill.

AGAIN. I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF A GAME. I WILL CARRY YOU LATER

Edited August 7, 2019 by WoodedSkate89

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

1 minute ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

AGAIN. I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF A GAME. I WILL CARRY YOU LATER

And to this day he still waits for his carry...

[Oreades]

Just now, goatwin said:

Of course, there are other options. But i'm talking about the better option. The one where we don't need to constantly exit games or spend valuable time in lfg instead of playing: make it so no playstyle is at the cost of anybody elses playstyle.

So the "homogenize everything so it fits within my preferred playstyle" option. Not sure I'd call that one the "better" one because there is always going to be someone who doesn't like X playstyle. If we keep playing to the lowest common denominator there won't be anything left and god forbid someone take offense to you or your friends play style cause whelp then that's gotta go~

[WoodedSkate89]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

And to this day he still waits for his carry...

I just don't wanna quit my game to carry a MR2

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

18 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I just don't wanna quit my game to carry a MR2

Im just messing guy, I know what it is. I dont primarily play warframe myself.

[Cephalon_Saryndipity]

so yeah. Saryn is a divisive frame. So strange that this thread is still going. 

Either they will nerf her or bring up the other frames or, more likely, do nothing. I think the HOW of reworking her abilities is more important than the WHY. It is easy to suggest a nerf or a buff, much harder to propose a difference. I've seen some good examples here like get rid of the x4 damage with Miasma on those with Spores. But I've seen just as much: she's just too good, make her suck like ember (not verbatim but you see where I'm coming from- some people just hate her with no recourse.).

Why is DPS so controversial in a PVE CO-OP game? Do people really care how many kills they get? Some of my favorites runs were with EV Trinity, and she doesn't do much damage without weapons. I don't feel upset or deflated when I'm outclassed in damage or kills. I can see how others would, though. But just because you didn't lead kills it doesn't mean that you suck or are incompetent or on the wrong track with your builds. Like in life you take a step back, analyze then move forward better off than before.

Perhaps the role of each frames should be better defined, and folks should remember that games are fun. If Saryn is ruining your fun I understand. It can be easy to get your self-worth tied up with your success at hobbies. 

[goatwin]

25 minutes ago, Oreades said:

So the "homogenize everything so it fits within my preferred playstyle" option. Not sure I'd call that one the "better" one because there is always going to be someone who doesn't like X playstyle. If we keep playing to the lowest common denominator there won't be anything left and god forbid someone take offense to you or your friends play style cause whelp then that's gotta go~

Where did i ask for such dramatic change such as homogenizing everything? Going for Logical fallacy eh.  classic.  Warframe is already full of diverse playstyles that nobody have a problem with. And how is the argument that there will always be others that don't like playstyle-x, counters the argument that playstyle-x nullifies playstyles A-z?

Ps. I Doubt my playstyle is ever going to get axed.  

Edited August 7, 2019 by goatwin

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

4 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Hildryn

Rhino

Frost

Oberon

Wukong

Zephyr

Wisp

 

You might disagree with some of those

To be honest I'm all about taking a frame and trying to make it work how I want. The result is usually a build designed to speed up and trivialize gameplay because I'm playing to farm .

As for the list I don't use Hildryn and Wukong but

With Rhino, Frost and Oberon I build them to maximise their 4th, so basically I just spam one button (and Rhino's armor) to nuke the map with them. For example (I believe I posted it in this thread at some point) I had an encounter with a Saryn a few days back on Hydron where I ended up teasing her by nuking the map with my frost as soon as she landed her spores.

I used to spam Zephyr but now I've been using her to skip the wires during the Ropalolyst fight. Between her and my Operator they trivialize the fight a bit.

As for Wisp. I had crit, speedy, spin2win heavy sword builds going as it was, Wisp's speed just makes it crazier. I also partner her up with the Cyanex which is a deadly weapon without added speed. Her 4th while not the best DPS ability is still deadly especially down halls. After the Survival arbitration I did with her last week she might be one of my main frames for a while.

[sungod1]

52 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Not how it works... Think about your arguments before presenting.

Some frames require skill and others do not.

A frame with an "I Win" button does not require skill.

Frames which require harder builds and use of abilities. Do require skill.

 

Obviously 

Nothing in this game requires any skill at all.  If you think it does you are wrong.