Why no cover system?

[Hypermega]

Just now, Corvid said:

In other words, you're not playing at levels the game is balanced around. If you're squishy it's your own fault, what with the modding system and all.

 

MODS? which mod turns a squishy frame (ie most of them) into a none squishy! considering the game is balanced around being a horde shooter and not a single mod scales then yes it would be my fault. which is why i dont do it (waves ivara in the air) be nice if i could though wouldn't it

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

If I can try to summarise the point I think op is making (Please correct me if I'm wrong)......

He's eventually getting one-shot by enemies once they go up to lvl 200 ish and wants to be able to hide behind cover to try and avoid this.  He's finding this difficult and is upset.

Well, tbh, normal gameplay in wf is not designed to go much beyond lvl 100.  Sure, it's something you can do and I've done it many times myself, but you do of course have to select an appropriate load out to deal with the extreme enemy damage and armour.  In my opinion, if you're having to depend on hiding behind a box in order to survive in that level of content then that level is too high for the load out you are running.  

There are numerous loadouts can handle lvl 200 though and to many players that's not even very high.  I often do 60-90 min survival arbies solo with nekros just fine, no cheese required, just movement and awareness.

But surely the point of going 2-3 hrs is so you can test your build and it is going to get hard.  Enemies that you could face tank at lvl 50 will obliterate you at lvl 200.  There simply isn't time to hide behind a box and pew pew them with your soma.  Remember, we're fighting enemies where all the factions fight based on trying to win by attrition - they'll just keep throwing more enemies at you until they win.  

In short, if you can't survive lvl 200 content go and look at improving your loadout instead of demanding the entire mechanics of the game be re-written because you're having difficulties.  (I do accept enemy armour scaling needs looked at quite drastically but we just have to make do it until it is, one day, hopefully)

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

That counts as a cover system by the standards book. If you want to argue, don't use your personal opinions.

When people talk cover systems, they are usually referring to the type that originated in Winback, and was popularised by Gears of War, in which you press a button to stick to a chest-high or taller wall. CoD's system does not fit that category.

2 minutes ago, Hypermega said:

 

MODS? which mod turns a squishy frame (ie most of them) into a none squishy! considering the game is balanced around being a horde shooter and not a single mod scales then yes it would be my fault. which is why i dont do it (waves ivara in the air) be nice if i could though wouldn't it

Adaptation, Vitality and Primed Vigor are my main 3. They keep you alive through pretty much everything, aside from a few boss attacks at sortie level.

[bibmobello]

1 hour ago, Hypermega said:

 

You're the one coming to me but by all means keep playing the victim all because i had answer for your "tongue and cheek response" its nothing if not entertaining 🙂 

If you watch the  gameplay videos of developers, you see a strategic game, they take cover behind pillars and blah blah blah. When you play the real game you have to press random buttons like a crazy and spamming 4.

Someone said Ninja don't take cover, WTF! Ninja were stealth assassins! the main characteristic of ninjas was to hidden weapons in the toilet of the  victim!

[Hypermega]

Just now, Corvid said:

When people talk cover systems, they are usually referring to the type that originated in Winback, and was popularised by Gears of War, in which you press a button to stick to a chest-high or taller wall. CoD's system does not fit that category.

Adaptation, Vitality and Primed Vigor are my main 3. They keep you alive through pretty much everything, aside from a few boss attacks at sortie level.

OK put all 3 of them on ooh i duunno MESA! put em on her or maybe equinox. take the sword that has the best block and parry you have and go swing it at one of the butchers or stagger a single tick of damage in vodyanoi which will be a nice easy example for you. let me know how hard your jaw hits your desk as you watch that frame evaporate before you can roll away. i know im being  little flippent but my point here is that mods do not scale! you can not make a squishy frame tanky with any combo of mods in the game. you can put them on inaros it will simple push the point of failure a little further which is why we need mechanics or mods/gear that create mechanics that scale alongside damage

Also i often don't see sorty 3 bosses, because i dont get to em first and they are dead when i do despite being a couple of seconds behind are you seeing the issue?

 

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

If I can try to summarise the point I think op is making (Please correct me if I'm wrong)......

He's eventually getting one-shot by enemies once they go up to lvl 200 ish and wants to be able to hide behind cover to try and avoid this.  He's finding this difficult and is upset.

 

If your going to try and summerise make sure you read everything. as iv said about 6 times now i have no difficulty i know what my loadouts are capable of and i know better than take a build that isnt capable of scaling out of the arsenal. other than that my saryn, ivara, nidus are doing fine 🙂 

[Corvid]

12 minutes ago, Hypermega said:

OK put all 3 of them on ooh i duunno MESA! put em on her or maybe equinox. take the sword that has the best block and parry you have and go swing it at one of the butchers or stagger a single tick of damage in vodyanoi which will be a nice easy example for you. let me know how hard your jaw hits your desk as you watch that frame evaporate before you can roll away. i know im being  little flippent but my point here is that mods do not scale! you can not make a squishy frame tanky with any combo of mods in the game. you can put them on inaros it will simple push the point of failure a little further which is why we need mechanics or mods/gear that create mechanics that scale alongside damage

Not sure why you'd call Mesa out as an example of squishiness. She's one of the Tankier frames with Shatter Shield. Otherwise, this paragraph seems mostly incoherent, but the best I can discern is that you want me to get hit by a high level enemy with said mod setup. Considering that I regularly walk off such damage on non-tanky frames, I'm not sure what your point is.

Mods scale, just not infinitely. If we have infinitely scaling offense and defense, you might as well remove enemy levels altogether, as you'd have the same result. Again, you're complaining about a difficulty in a level range that the devs have explicitly stated the game is not balanced around. Even adding a cover system with damage reduction like you suggest wouldn't fix this "Issue".

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Considering that I regularly walk off such damage on non-tanky frames, I'm not sure what your point is.

Probably that they're doing something wrong and just can't wrap their head around the concept of this being a "it's not the game, it's just you", problem?

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Probably that they're doing something wrong and just can't wrap their head around the concept of this being a "it's not the game, it's just you", problem?

I try to take things in good faith, and assume that he doesn't realise how much of an impact the multiplicative effect of durability mods can have. The thing about them is they compound on each other. More health/shields means more time for Adaptation to kick in, and so on.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

18 minutes ago, Corvid said:

I try to take things in good faith, and assume that he doesn't realise how much of an impact the multiplicative effect of durability mods can have. The thing about them is they compound on each other. More health/shields means more time for Adaptation to kick in, and so on.

Taking what they're saying on good faith, doesn't negate "not knowing what you're doing, to the point of not realising that you don't know what you are doing wrong." And it looks like that's exactly what is going on here. 

It's like during the first nightwave when people kept saying that they were using "great weapons" against the wolf, but were hardly able to scratch him. Whenever they posted up their builds, it was blatantly obvious that many of those weapons were not only not good for fighting the wolf, but generally sub-par. 

 

Dunning-kruger is real. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Clarification

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

When people talk cover systems, they are usually

Again you're arguing with opinions, not facts. Just because something is mentioned more commonly than something else, does not mean the less common example does not fit into the same category. Cover mechanics are defined as having some kind of interaction between the cover and the avater. This does not mean you 100% must have your back velcroed to a chest-high wall for it be counted.

COD game's allow you to lean and when in certain postions, aiming when near the edge of a wall will automatically make you stand up and not aiming down ironsights will move behind the cover again. That counts. Gears of War was not the first to have cover mechanics and nor did it invalidate different iterations of it. Soldier of Fortune for example had leaning cover system.

Edited August 5, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[Hypermega]

23 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Not sure why you'd call Mesa out as an example of squishiness. She's one of the Tankier frames with Shatter Shield. Otherwise, this paragraph seems mostly incoherent, but the best I can discern is that you want me to get hit by a high level enemy with said mod setup. Considering that I regularly walk off such damage on non-tanky frames, I'm not sure what your point is.

Mods scale, just not infinitely. If we have infinitely scaling offense and defense, you might as well remove enemy levels altogether, as you'd have the same result. Again, you're complaining about a difficulty in a level range that the devs have explicitly stated the game is not balanced around. Even adding a cover system with damage reduction like you suggest wouldn't fix this "Issue".

Because mesa was one of the last frames i tested in vod (rathuum 3) to see how she would fair in a solo end game run. with shatter shield, adaptation, and umbral mods the first tick of damage i took killed mesa outright. It turns out the damage reduction from shatter shield 95% still leaves enough to knock her spark out. i wouldn't mind this, infact i demand it but there needs to be a counter play beyond simply go get a cheese frame. 

If the devs have said the game is not supposed to balanced past 100 when what are they doing? the game is not exactly balanced pre-100 considering the damage we do so where is the game balanced? I really dont think im asking too much in wondering why we don't have methods of overcoming difficulty (which we dont) outside of play the cheesy memeframe

And  i too try to take everything in good faith but i think your shrugging off damage in fissure missions and nobody said these systems are needed there

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Eklectus said:

TL;DR: We're too lazy to actually change anything or try to make the game challenging through the addition of mechanics that require skill, and would rather keep feeding the endless scaling issue instead.

Cover system is a s*itty, boring and overused mechanic that has absolutely nothing to with skill. I've literally never played a cover-based shooter where it wasn't used just as an excuse to unnecessarily draw out combat.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

4 hours ago, Hypermega said:

OK put all 3 of them on ooh i duunno MESA! put em on her or maybe equinox. take the sword that has the best block and parry you have and go swing it at one of the butchers or stagger a single tick of damage in vodyanoi which will be a nice easy example for you. let me know how hard your jaw hits your desk as you watch that frame evaporate before you can roll away. i know im being  little flippent but my point here is that mods do not scale! you can not make a squishy frame tanky with any combo of mods in the game. you can put them on inaros it will simple push the point of failure a little further which is why we need mechanics or mods/gear that create mechanics that scale alongside damage

Also i often don't see sorty 3 bosses, because i dont get to em first and they are dead when i do despite being a couple of seconds behind are you seeing the issue?

 

If your going to try and summerise make sure you read everything. as iv said about 6 times now i have no difficulty i know what my loadouts are capable of and i know better than take a build that isnt capable of scaling out of the arsenal. other than that my saryn, ivara, nidus are doing fine 🙂 

Bud, I did read everything.  I can't see the 6 times you've said you don't have any difficulty, know what your loadouts are capable of or that you know better than to take a build that isn't capable of scaling.  If anything, the opposite is true. 

To me you're complaining that you can't take any loadout because eventually you'll get one shot.  Yeah, you will.  With any load out eventually you'll get oneshot if you go far enough.  That's why people who do very long runs don't put any survivability mods in at all because they're pointless past a certain level.  Better to use the mod space for other things.

It also seems to me you're advocating some new item that can be installed on your wf that will give a % damage reduction if hiding behind something.  Considering that end game just now is probably sorties and arbies there is absolutely no need for this.  The majority of the playerbase rarely if ever see lvl 100 enemies as it is.  Such an item would make "normal" content irrelevant.  With all the dr we have at our disposal already combined with the fast movement for evasion and our ability to kill so fast, such an item would be gamebreakingly bad.  Unless it only kicks in at say lvl 200.  But really what's the point?  A few more levels and you'd be getting oneshot again. 

[PyreFox]

If your Tenno is dying you are doing something wrong mate, I can switch in and out effortlessly, no need for cover when I have an immortal child that is a leaf on the wind mate.

 

Maybe you have put no effort into your Tenno powers. I'm only 3 houses into my Tenno and he's untouchable.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Poster learn to dodge.  Or is your name gohan? Does piccalo need to keep training you?

Rule 1 of warframe. You never ever stop moving.  Just about every frame has something to stay alive. Self healing,  arcanes, parkour, slow glide, wall running, and using your surroundings .

Have a team to spread the enemy fire.  Use a minion with actual hp. Even espers.  All of it can be useful. unless something insto deaths me in one hit outa no where.  I have little issues. And I'm by no means hardcore.

We are much faster then the ai.

[Eklectus]

2 hours ago, Pr1A said:

Cover system is a s*itty, boring and overused mechanic that has absolutely nothing to with skill. I've literally never played a cover-based shooter where it wasn't used just as an excuse to unnecessarily draw out combat.

Of course, there's absolutely no way a game where you have to use Warframe's movement mechanics in tandem with a mentality of "cover = safety, running/jumping/sliding at gunfire = stupid" in order to gain an advantage over the enemy gunline could ever be interesting. How could I ever think otherwise? Let me just go back to the scintillating gameplay we have right now.

[uAir]

Why do you need to crouch behind anything when you can just run in and kill everything instead?

You'll be there crouching and I'll just clear the room. Keep up, please. o_o

[TioMegaManX]

11 hours ago, Hypermega said:

I get that were supposed to be ninjas flipping and flopping hither and thither and most people just nuke or skip enemies altogether because 2 minute missions  races are life and the easy bullet jump mechanic combined with ridiculously high respawn rate makes it pointless to bother anyway unless required but outside of this the more i think about it the more i wonder why we cant use cover. we have automatic rifles, snipers, beam weapons, bows, im sorry but nobody looks like a ninja standing in the open while using this kit, idiots maybe but not ninjas lol.

And yes i get that the likes of frost and volt exist they are the exception not the rule in 2k plus hours i have never once seen a team use someone's shields, plenty die outside em tho!  

EDIT: just a quick note to say im not advocating a sweeping change to the entire game! a mod, deployable piece of gear, something that can be ignored by those who have no need im not out here trying to turn warframe into gears of war lol

A game about space ninjas that has horribly inconsistent stealth, you can get pretty close to enemies and they won't spot you in regular missions or somehow telepatically tell the other guys 3 rooms away to trigger the alarms or go to open world and everyone on a 10 km radius can spot you and call "Potter" for help or deploy a beacon that alerts everyone that is not an orb mother.

Edited August 5, 2019 by VanFanel1980mx

[Brey223]

This game doesn’t need a cover system. It would actively hamper this game and would not provide anything. If you don’t have a means to support yourself in a squish frame be prepared to be on your back. You need to be more active with your frame than someone who took a tank or survivability

[seprent]

if you did force a cover system into the game id unbind the key that allows me to use out of spite 

[Lutesque]

The reason nobody uses cover is because there is no cover.... 

You're just going to get shot from behind....

[Butzebaer]

Dear OP,
I absolutely can see where you are coming from and I do agree that it would be nice to able to deal with everything in the game, without being oneshot, with every frame. (Explicitely Talking about Rathuum 3 and stuff like that and NOT endurance runs.) But I would rather see a different approach from the dev team to adress this issue, than them adding in a cover mechanic, that, in my opinion, does not fit the overall theme of the game. At least not as a whole. I would much rather have the enemy scale, as they do know, up until, let's say, level 100 and then let other mechanics kick in. Example: 100+ Heavies are immune to status - without hitting you harder and of course don't get more armor either - or maybe they just get more resistant to getting hit by those. At 150+ or even earlier trash mobs could have a similar "buff" applied to them. At 200+ normal spawns could cease entirely and be replaced by eximus units - and only those - sucking away your energy, blocking shots with shields and blowing up, while still, purely statistically, considering Health, Damage and Armor, being just as strong as at level 100. I wouldn't even be opposed to having a chance of having "boss like" enemies spawn at really high "levels". Something the likes of Vor or Lech Kril. Something, that doesn't just get blown to pieces.

To me that might feel a little more natural in a game like Warframe and might put more emphasize on managing the hordes of enemies in this horde-mode-game, without them simply hitting you harder in the face.

Regarding cover at a system in Warframe: I wouldn't be opposed to having a Soldier-like Warframe, that has abilities, that make use of a cover like system, only he as access too.

[(PSN)ImTheOx]

Auto cover when not sprinting should be a thing. 

[sungod1]

Who needs cover when you can roll from Damage reduction?  

[WellIHopeThisOneWorks]

I don't mean to intrude, but, I lie, I do.

To answer your edited point, it would be pretty neat to be able to deploy a Grinieer Bulwark or something from ones inventory, have used those on occasion for fun some times, and thought it would be cool to have something like it!

BUT on the greater point getting argued in this thread, I think adding cover just simply wouldn't work in the way you want it to. Think about it, if your rolling around and still getting one shot, with the 75% reduction on top of every other survivability you might have, you really think a wall in the way would really help? Even with, say, that same 75% damage reduction while against that chest high wall, the enemies behind you will obliterate you the instant you get behind it and stop moving. The bombard whih shoot his explosive shot at you (that has punch through/ignores terrain on impact!) and obliterate you and smear you over that wall you tried so hard to hide behind. 

My point being, if your dying even while hiding behind a wall right now, you think a dedicated system for it will help you? No, not likely, not unless they changed a LOT of factors to make it function, and then by that point, I default to the rest of the arguments here. That's just not what Warframe is, it's a run and gun shooter. We aren't the 'ninja that stick in the shadows and wait for there moment to strike', we are the ninja that attack fast and hard, dive into a confrontation and take out all targets in the room quickly before vanishing into the comfort of our ships as we zoom away. That is what Warframe is/has become, and based on how its been that way for YEArs now, it's how it is going to stay. Getting a cover system will do nothing besides make enemies suddenly have more stationary targets to blast, and give them yet another thing that they need to attempt to balance around. Its not going to happen, and in my opinion, it wont add anything to the game besides yet another system to be under developed and never used.

Id recommend trying Gara though, I feel her walls would help you nicely! Shatter shield's infinite scaling is pretty nice too! (toggle crouch too!)

Edited August 6, 2019 by WellIHopeThisOneWorks