Dog Days Exploit Hot Fix Red Text, Don't talk down at your supporters DE

[kuciol]

Just now, (XB1)Togashi said:

Your not wrong. 

I really worry about the future of humanity. 

Yea in older days if you would be offended you would simply replay with F.Y. and move on with your life. Now? Everybody feels the need to make elaborate explanation why their feelings where hurt.

[Alpha_Tango]

In hindsight, it would have been a fairly decent event if released at its current state. I tried playing dog days again and besides the occasional kill stealing, it is a fair grind for a 10 day event.  

Instead, we have to go through a bad case of two sides being fed up with each other. One, a joke that did not come out of thin air gone wrong and the other bored of waiting got stirred up, accused of being a cheater. No matter how you look at it, red text did not give DE any favors on the PR side.

Personally, it's a petty thing to wallow over it, but hey I bought the noggles! I think they are the best thing that came out of it.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2019-08-10 at 2:21 PM, kuciol said:

You see what you want is to change a game into Destiny. Destiny has everything you speak of and is different game. There is a reason why i play warframe and not other games you know. I dont want it less AoE oriented, i also think nuking whole maps shouldnt be a thing but thats different topic. You see the problem is if you want challenging endgame you would have to enforce coop. You would have to force teamplay in organized groups, otherwise it will not be challenging. But once you do that you lock out sizable portion of players from even attempting that content meaning you make content for basically nobody. You seem to not understand that game has ONLY outliers, you nerf 1 or 2 and others take their place. Nerf enough and nobody will want to play. You see after some time games attract certain types of players. Those that want engaging gameplay with bosses and raids play destiny already, those who want just to farm some stuff and bash heads looking awesome in the process play warframe. You say you dont see Eidolons as bosses and yet they are, i dare to say they are as hard content as you will ever get. Anything above that will just end up being empty.

Nope not at all. Destiny is a looter shooter with far less mob density and quite longer TTK. The only thing I'm saying is we should narrow down the range of abilities and only a handful of them at that. AoE would still be a large part of the game but it would no longer be things with 50-70m range. It would instead be AoE with 15-20m reach, things that you use actively at incoming masses of enemies.

You also wouldnt have to enforce group play. This game would still suit single play just as fine without map wide abilities. Enforced group play really only becomes a thing in trinity based games because the encounters are set up to require a tank, healer and dpsers. I also dont know where you get the idea of engaging gameplay with bosses only needs to fit in more slow paced games like Destiny. Power creep in WF is the only thing that has caused the "bash heads looking awesome" mindset. Prior to the power creep this game was not what it is now. So the real thing is, why should it stay as this when it isnt the core idea of the game anyways? Dialing it all back would be far healthier.

And the reason why I think eidolons arent bosses is because they dont cater to the actual mechanics of the game. They are simply hard-denial units that completely renders the majority of warframes pointless due to the ability immunity. Also a cause of power creep running rampant and solving it the wrong way. Same goes for PT, Exploiter and Ropy. There are a millions ways they could have dealth with the frame powers better since the immunity still has loopholes against major offenders. They could have just as easily had cleansing mechanics throughout the fight so it was even for all frames, no matter if you played the chromatic buffbot or the toxic flower.

Also, saying the game is made up of only outliers is quite silly to say the least. If everyone was an outlier then no one would be an outlier. What you are talking about is simply a case of either overnerfing a select few or just straight up ignoring balance in the roster. Outliers go both ways, so they'd have to bring down the top and increase the bottom.

[kuciol]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope not at all. Destiny is a looter shooter with far less mob density and quite longer TTK. The only thing I'm saying is we should narrow down the range of abilities and only a handful of them at that. AoE would still be a large part of the game but it would no longer be things with 50-70m range. It would instead be AoE with 15-20m reach, things that you use actively at incoming masses of enemies.

And thats what you need to have engaging, challenging combat, fewer enemies with longer TTK. The moment you mow down thousands of enemies it will never be a challenge.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

You also wouldnt have to enforce group play. This game would still suit single play just as fine without map wide abilities. Enforced group play really only becomes a thing in trinity based games because the encounters are set up to require a tank, healer and dpsers. I also dont know where you get the idea of engaging gameplay with bosses only needs to fit in more slow paced games like Destiny. Power creep in WF is the only thing that has caused the "bash heads looking awesome" mindset. Prior to the power creep this game was not what it is now. So the real thing is, why should it stay as this when it isnt the core idea of the game anyways? Dialing it all back would be far healthier.

You have to enforce group play if you want any challenge because if not then groups would make it trivial so you have to balance it around them but then you cant solo it because its balanced around groups and circle closes. Why should they suddenly change direction if the current model works? I play warframe for what it is now and not what it was. You want DE to waste 3-5 years of development for a huge gamble. Why should they go to the "less popular" days? It makes no sense. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And the reason why I think eidolons arent bosses is because they dont cater to the actual mechanics of the game. They are simply hard-denial units that completely renders the majority of warframes pointless due to the ability immunity. Also a cause of power creep running rampant and solving it the wrong way. Same goes for PT, Exploiter and Ropy. There are a millions ways they could have dealth with the frame powers better since the immunity still has loopholes against major offenders. They could have just as easily had cleansing mechanics throughout the fight so it was even for all frames, no matter if you played the chromatic buffbot or the toxic flower.

Then you make them even easier then they already are. You must not forget that vast majority of players cant even solo those and we already have topic how boring they are. They could have made it differently, sure like any other part of the game but they chose this approach that kinda works. 

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, saying the game is made up of only outliers is quite silly to say the least. If everyone was an outlier then no one would be an outlier. What you are talking about is simply a case of either overnerfing a select few or just straight up ignoring balance in the roster. Outliers go both ways, so they'd have to bring down the top and increase the bottom.

Yes there are only outliers, every single frame is op in vacuum its just some frames are more op then others for different tasks. Just think about it. You take out Chroma and Volt out and people will use Ivara, Titania and Octavia instead, you take out Inaros people will default back to Valkyr or Nidus. You cant have balance with so much diversity. Games with 5 classes have issues with balance, here we have 40 frames with 2-3 builds each, it will never be balanced, not even close.

Edited August 11, 2019 by kuciol

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

Dog Days, just like plague star and Arbitration, is DE trying a points system to see how we react while also providing a themed event. It was fun with a nice mechanic and some enemies that take equal damage as us. Exploit aside, it was "balanced" damage with better ai (some) and really took advantage of flanking and dodging to allow your teammates to score the kills and keeping deaths to near zero.

Technically speaking, it was great collective data if that was the underlying goal! 

More pearls for kills or higher k/d rate would've been awesome though!

[kevoisvevo]

On 2019-08-08 at 11:29 PM, Falseliberty said:

People are getting bent about a silly side event about floofs...  FLOOFS MAN. Go out and have a beer.

yeah you are right, i would rather get myself a nice cold one rather than waste time on this game anymore with its perpetual grind

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

On 2019-08-10 at 6:10 AM, DOOMPATRIOT said:

1. The problem is that DE consider the "Warframe is Easy" mentality as a joke.

2. Why would you Nerf yourself , when you grinded hard to get those Fancy mods, you are not a New Player.

3. Lol, just search "endgame" on Forums or Reddit.

1. That's a personal problem and your opinion. Not one I or many others share.

2. If your a new player you wouldn't complain it's too easy, if you're complaing about not having the shiny. My 'nerf yourself' solution, isn't meant for newbies.

If your a vet crying about how easy it is, what the hell do you expect when you get better at things? If it's too easy that's your problem. There are options if your smart enough.

The point of self nerf is personal challenge. To become better by purposefully making it harder. Having the shiny doesn't make you good. It doesn't make you more skilled. Rising to the challenge does.

3. Search "end" in a dictionary. ......Facepalm.  I swear, root words and thier meanings are lost on this generation.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, kuciol said:

And thats what you need to have engaging, challenging combat, fewer enemies with longer TTK. The moment you mow down thousands of enemies it will never be a challenge.

You have to enforce group play if you want any challenge because if not then groups would make it trivial so you have to balance it around them but then you cant solo it because its balanced around groups and circle closes. Why should they suddenly change direction if the current model works? I play warframe for what it is now and not what it was. You want DE to waste 3-5 years of development for a huge gamble. Why should they go to the "less popular" days? It makes no sense. 

Then you make them even easier then they already are. You must not forget that vast majority of players cant even solo those and we already have topic how boring they are. They could have made it differently, sure like any other part of the game but they chose this approach that kinda works. 

 

Yes there are only outliers, every single frame is op in vacuum its just some frames are more op then others for different tasks. Just think about it. You take out Chroma and Volt out and people will use Ivara, Titania and Octavia instead, you take out Inaros people will default back to Valkyr or Nidus. You cant have balance with so much diversity. Games with 5 classes have issues with balance, here we have 40 frames with 2-3 builds each, it will never be balanced, not even close.

You can have select few enganging enemies in a horde shooter/hack n' slash aswell among the hordes of trash. That is a common thing in most of them, just not here.

Regarding groups they'd simply have to have a balanced scale for those enganging encounters, like every single co-op game has. We have enough loadout options to solo most things that have the proper mechanics to cater to groups and solo play alike. WF is also not about a "current model" it is about what model it has unintentionally slipped into. They really wouldnt waste any development, they'd just pave a better way for future content instead of keeping the slowball rolling.

Eidolons wouldnt be easier, they'd simply be different. You must be really stuck in the box if you cant put what I suggest into a reality that isnt just 1 simple change. I'm not saying we should just remove the shield and give them an ability cleanse. I'm saying they should be reworked to work around ability use etc. instead of just being denial units that removes 99% of all WF powers across the roster. Currently they are just sponges with different phases, nothing else.

No that isnt what an outlier is. An outlier is the extreme end on both sides of the norm. The norm is being OP in general, the outlier go well beyond that to a place that is impossible to balance around. And there is a game that has proven that you can bring outliers to the norm group. Marvel Heroes managed to do it with over 60+ diverse heroes when they set their mind to it. Not to mention all heroes had 3 different talent trees, several perks (in the later itteration of the game) and multitudes of items to take into account. That was also an arpg that actually managed to turn content that was previously faceroll due to outliers, into something that was fun and worthwhile for every single hero. The heroes that were extremely bad and struggled were reworked and brought up to par while those that were extremely OP beyond imagination were brought down and still performed well but on par with everyone else. WF has around 40 frames with 4 skills and a passive each. It should be very easy to balance it.

I think out of the 60+ heroes they only really missed the mark on 2 and that was Jean Grey who turned out weak and Iron Fist who became the outlier. The rest turned out well. Doom got tuned down but was still a great hero, Punisher, Hawkeye, Black Widow and Deadpool went from bottom of the barrel to really well performing heroes that could compete with the likes of Doom, Strange, Wanda and Carol. Aside from that the only one that may have also turned out a bit too strong was Carnage, but he was a completely new release so would obviously get balanced shortly down the road. Gazillion also didnt have near the budget nor manpower that DE has.

[kuciol]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

You can have select few enganging enemies in a horde shooter/hack n' slash aswell among the hordes of trash. That is a common thing in most of them, just not here.

And we already have them Noxes, Nulifiers, Ancients. Those are the top of the line how hard you can expect the game to be. This is not a hard game, stop trying to make it that way.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Regarding groups they'd simply have to have a balanced scale for those enganging encounters, like every single co-op game has. We have enough loadout options to solo most things that have the proper mechanics to cater to groups and solo play alike. WF is also not about a "current model" it is about what model it has unintentionally slipped into. They really wouldnt waste any development, they'd just pave a better way for future content instead of keeping the slowball rolling.

But then you dont fix the issue. People that complain that its to easy will still complain that its to easy because you can solo it. Also WF is very much about current model, the simple fact that DE continues to release that kind of content is proof enough of that. What you call "pave better" i call "wasted of time", I for sure wouldnt be playing the thing you want the same way i didnt even touch trials. I dare to say there is a lot more players like me then players like you.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Eidolons wouldnt be easier, they'd simply be different. You must be really stuck in the box if you cant put what I suggest into a reality that isnt just 1 simple change. I'm not saying we should just remove the shield and give them an ability cleanse. I'm saying they should be reworked to work around ability use etc. instead of just being denial units that removes 99% of all WF powers across the roster. Currently they are just sponges with different phases, nothing else.

Ofcourse they would be easier because somebody will find some way to cheese it, we always do. You may not like the current mechanic but it doesnt mean they should be reworked, i prefer them that way. I would like even more bullet sponge bosses, complicated mechanics get annoying after a while.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

No that isnt what an outlier is. An outlier is the extreme end on both sides of the norm. The norm is being OP in general, the outlier go well beyond that to a place that is impossible to balance around. And there is a game that has proven that you can bring outliers to the norm group. Marvel Heroes managed to do it with over 60+ diverse heroes when they set their mind to it. Not to mention all heroes had 3 different talent trees, several perks (in the later itteration of the game) and multitudes of items to take into account. That was also an arpg that actually managed to turn content that was previously faceroll due to outliers, into something that was fun and worthwhile for every single hero. The heroes that were extremely bad and struggled were reworked and brought up to par while those that were extremely OP beyond imagination were brought down and still performed well but on par with everyone else. WF has around 40 frames with 4 skills and a passive each. It should be very easy to balance it.

You still dont know what i mean. Once you remove 1 outlier the other will take his place, because every frame is OP but then you also have weapons, combinations of mods you dont think about now because you dont need it etc. Also you look at Marvel Heroes with rose tinted glasses, they had the same topics there as we have currently here. 

 

Is warframe an easy game once you have enough experience? Sure it is but i see no reason to change that state. For you it may be to easy but to many its very hard, as i said most people cant even solo Teralyst, there was a topic how hard it was to do Index for nightwave etc. Tridolon is as hard as it will ever get, expecting anything harder is just daydreaming.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I walked away with two floofs and that one mod that never dropped for me when farming Keyla...I sorta wish they would've added the Silent Shotgun mod...but maybe next time...

And on that note I'm not grinding for that captura...and everything else in there...maybe two years ago I would have..but, I've reached a point where I just don't care anymore...If it shows up' it shows up...

I'm no hurry to get Hyldryn...I would have been in no hurry to get Wisp, but her farm was actually pretty reasonable...I'm not in a hurry to get any new frames and jumping through DE's hoops anymore...I hit the saturation mark where it's sorta why bother worrying about it..they'll be great and then too great, and then nerfed..and then gather dust...and then a re-work..and maybe it'll be good and maybe it won't, but eventually I'll just move back to the five or six frames I really use and just plod along...

Rivens though are the DE's true surprise mechanics..and I do not like the time investment in those to only have them undercut every month or so..Other than that...Reduce the power if you want..I don't build for power nuke frames..I build for speed and agility with only enough power to do its job to save a downed player and have both walk away fighting instead of getting killed trying...I can go an hour, two hours, three hours..but I rather not...20 to 40 minutes is fine since the rewards are only really ten minutes worthy if not zero minutes at times...

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[White_Matter]

The problem is, DE devs and employees don't play the game as much as the players do. It is a job for them, so they probably do something else in their free time.

So I highly doubt that any of  them are aware how grindy, boring and repetitive the game at this stage is. Because they create new content, test it out for a while, play once or twice after it gets released and never play it again till the next bit of content. 

So yeah, at this point in time, don't expect them to get the frustration of people who've put 1000+ hours into the game.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

And we already have them Noxes, Nulifiers, Ancients. Those are the top of the line how hard you can expect the game to be. This is not a hard game, stop trying to make it that way.

But then you dont fix the issue. People that complain that its to easy will still complain that its to easy because you can solo it. Also WF is very much about current model, the simple fact that DE continues to release that kind of content is proof enough of that. What you call "pave better" i call "wasted of time", I for sure wouldnt be playing the thing you want the same way i didnt even touch trials. I dare to say there is a lot more players like me then players like you.

Ofcourse they would be easier because somebody will find some way to cheese it, we always do. You may not like the current mechanic but it doesnt mean they should be reworked, i prefer them that way. I would like even more bullet sponge bosses, complicated mechanics get annoying after a while.

You still dont know what i mean. Once you remove 1 outlier the other will take his place, because every frame is OP but then you also have weapons, combinations of mods you dont think about now because you dont need it etc. Also you look at Marvel Heroes with rose tinted glasses, they had the same topics there as we have currently here. 

Is warframe an easy game once you have enough experience? Sure it is but i see no reason to change that state. For you it may be to easy but to many its very hard, as i said most people cant even solo Teralyst, there was a topic how hard it was to do Index for nightwave etc. Tridolon is as hard as it will ever get, expecting anything harder is just daydreaming.

No nullifiers and the rest really dont count. They arent engaging. And DE have already provent hey can give us more (look at Orb Vallis enemies). Things could easily get interesting if more of the game was designed with the "difficulty" of OV, where some mobs may infact be lethal. It is probably the most balanced area in the game.

Difficulty doesnt equal group content, it can be challenging solo and in group. Just because you can solo it, it doesnt mean the challenge is removed nor that the horde shooter theme takes a backseat. Again you arent thinking outside the box, you have an extremely narrow view on it. Also the only proof of the content is that DE have dug themselves deep into power creep over time. 

All of what you are saying regarding eidolons is what is wrong with gaming today.

No, you dont get what outlier means. You are talking about overnerfing and poor balance still.

We dont need to change much of what is now, but DE needs to change the future content to actually give us progression. Everything is much to easy out the door now and finished within hours. That doesnt bring future longevity. They wont be able to ride the stale gravy train on player influx for ages.

[kuciol]

59 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No nullifiers and the rest really dont count. They arent engaging. And DE have already provent hey can give us more (look at Orb Vallis enemies). Things could easily get interesting if more of the game was designed with the "difficulty" of OV, where some mobs may infact be lethal. It is probably the most balanced area in the game.

Difficulty doesnt equal group content, it can be challenging solo and in group. Just because you can solo it, it doesnt mean the challenge is removed nor that the horde shooter theme takes a backseat. Again you arent thinking outside the box, you have an extremely narrow view on it. Also the only proof of the content is that DE have dug themselves deep into power creep over time. 

All of what you are saying regarding eidolons is what is wrong with gaming today.

No, you dont get what outlier means. You are talking about overnerfing and poor balance still.

We dont need to change much of what is now, but DE needs to change the future content to actually give us progression. Everything is much to easy out the door now and finished within hours. That doesnt bring future longevity. They wont be able to ride the stale gravy train on player influx for ages.

It is not to easy thats the point. Its to easy to you while tons of people are complaining that its to hard. OV is for me the worst designed area with many random one shots, enemies thats jump god knows from where and nullify abilities and because of that removing the possibility to play a lot of frames that relay on them to survive and deal dmg. If every area would be like OV i would just quit, no bullS#&$. It will never be challenging for you because they cant afford to make content for you, its stupid to do something for 1%. They dont need to change anything, you want them to change because you are bored of the game. You say the mobs i mentioned doesnt count because they do not fit your narrow point of view. Challenge is subjective and you are to sure that your idea of challenge is correct one. For me sorties and ESO up to like wave 10 are the sweet spot and even current arbitrations. You will never have balance in warframe because we dont want balance here, i want my op S#&$ to be op. I dont need more power creep but i want more Niduses and Inaroses. Thats why i play this game in the first place and judging by what DE is doing many others. You may try to deny that you must enforce coop to have any challenge but the fact is you will never have anything hard without that. The moment it will be soloable people will cry its to easy and it wont matter that 90% of players cant finish it, people that have mostly everything in game will call it to easy, always.

[Peter]

Apparently they make a lot of internal jokes about who sends this kind of feedback to the point of getting a redtext, I'm impressed.

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2019-08-12 at 3:16 PM, White_Matter said:

The problem is, DE devs and employees don't play the game as much as the players do. It is a job for them, so they probably do something else in their free time.

So I highly doubt that any of  them are aware how grindy, boring and repetitive the game at this stage is. Because they create new content, test it out for a while, play once or twice after it gets released and never play it again till the next bit of content. 

So yeah, at this point in time, don't expect them to get the frustration of people who've put 1000+ hours into the game.

They do, but not in a way that players see.

The issue with it tho its not just the grind, but the Content issue as well, like ESO it was out and then cuz it was not "popular" its tossed aside and never touched again. Arcwing, Raids, PoE (Before it got "reworked").

So your not completely wrong, you just need to step into the shoes of a Player, rather then a person to builds the game, to understand such issues.