Can we have a huge balance update before new war?

[LupoDWolf]

I kjnow Empyrean/duviri/new war are requiring a huge part of the work right now, but seriously, we need balance updates sooner or later. Things like underpowered mods,number of mod and slots, difficult and scalling, older and underused frames kits and weapons, companions etc...

[Chewarette]

Honestly the game is in a good spot right now balance-wise, except a few Warframes which needs some tweaks (but that takes time and they're already on it).

The difficulty and scaling, well that's probably already included in the new tilesets/enemies/game modes anyway.

[BlachWolf]

While I do agree that some mods need ballancing, armor needs to be fixed first and then enemy need to be buffed with ne mechanics so they dont get stomped by the player (basically more difficulty based on mechanics instead of ehp). If that does happen, I really dont see the need to give players even more power through upgraded mods.

Edited August 13, 2019 by BlachWolf

[Birdframe_Prime]

The fun thing to note is that not all of DE work on the same things all at once. So yeah, they can work on the next big updates and still make progress on things like frame updates, balance passes, heck they just did a whole update on a load of the worst Augments to try and make them better.

The bigger updates do take a lot of work-hours, but that's not all they're working on at any one point. So yeah, we can still get balance passes before the big updates drop. Whether we do or not, however, is entirely their own scheduling.

[Teridax68]

I am fully in favor of another balance update, especially since the last time we got a major balance pass (which iirc affected hundreds of weapons), the update injected a significant amount of diversity to our weapon usage, and thus more longevity even (and especially) for veterans. The one issue I took, however, was that that pass restructured weapons in such a way that it tried to implement this MR-based power progression: lower-MR weapons were made generally weaker than higher-MR options, presumably with the idea that players would access increasingly stronger weapons as they'd progress through the game. This I think is harmful to diversity overall, as it obviously creates marked power differences between weapons, and ultimately I don't think really adds anything beneficial to the game.

Personally, I think that if there needs to be a progression, it should be one of complexity: lower-MR weapons should be simpler and familiar, and as the player progresses the game should introduce them to weapons with unique mechanics, alt-fires, conditional bonuses, and so on. In all cases, our weapons should be equally powerful, with more difficult weapons obviously offering proportionately higher rewards when used well. For the majority of currently underpowered weapons, this should mean raising their crit and/or status chance so that they can be modded more fully, or alternatively raising their raw damage to a point where pure +damage builds would still have them on par with crit or status weapons.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I find you’re lack of evidence to support your claim disturbing.

[DreisterDino]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

I find you’re lack of evidence to support your claim disturbing.

disturbing eh?

I find it "disturbing" if you cannot name at least 50 Mods that are completly useless, 5 Frames that are really underused, 25 weapons that are complete trash and not used right off the bat and if you dont see the whole companion-problematic (its either smeeta, carrier or helios, the rest basically doesnt exist) and all the problems we have related to scaling/difficulty.

You have close to 5000 posts, so i am 100% sure you have seen the thousands of topics providing the evidence again and again and again.

 

so +1 OP, i am completly with you.

Tennocon really managed to get me interested in all the future updates!

Still, if the foundation of the game basically remains as untouched as in the past i have the feeling that everything new and shiny wont hold up to the hype again.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

disturbing eh?

I find it "disturbing" if you cannot name at least 50 Mods that are completly useless, 5 Frames that are really underused, 25 weapons that are complete trash and not used right off the bat and if you dont see the whole companion-problematic (its either smeeta, carrier or helios, the rest basically doesnt exist) and all the problems we have related to scaling/difficulty.

You have close to 5000 posts, so i am 100% sure you have seen the thousands of topics providing the evidence again and again and again.

 

so +1 OP, i am completly with you.

Tennocon really managed to get me interested in all the future updates!

Still, if the foundation of the game basically remains as untouched as in the past i have the feeling that everything new and shiny wont hold up to the hype again.

Ok so this is kind of embarrassing. I accidentally misread “underpowered” in the OP as “overpowered”. 

[(NSW)CthulhuAzathoth]

I rather DE spend some time in updating enemy. Seems like all new enemy now a day have anti-teno power to make them harder to kill. It is bad design because the magic system in WF is what make it stand out from rest of the shooter. The core system itself is not very good compare to other online FPS (dump AI,  weak lore, limited mission ... etc.) If DE continue to solve the power creep problem using anti-magic system, people will likely to switch to better alternative.

[Klokwerkaos]

lol at the title.

not to be condescending but your optimism in asking for a giant balance pass on the forums and having any expectation that it will be met before new war as if they just have time to send that out with everything else, is extremely naive.  

first because that's a huge project and second, because devs make it a point of ignoring the forums.  if you want in their ear directly, get them to follow you on twitter, or make a post on reddit that gets 100000 upvotes, otherwise fat chance they will ever even know your request exists.

we will get balance passes when they decide to release it and not before.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

im always terrified when people ask for balance update. as it usually means make the item unusable. 

[000l000]

Le 13/08/2019 à 08:03, Chewarette a dit :

Honestly the game is in a good spot right now balance-wise, except a few Warframes which needs some tweaks (but that takes time and they're already on it).

The difficulty and scaling, well that's probably already included in the new tilesets/enemies/game modes anyway.

No. Just no.

If everyone wasn't gearing with corrosive, using Saryn only in ESO, spamming nothing but Ignis & Spin-2-win or even facerolling every content before the lvl 100-120 range and aiming for red crits cause status basically isn't scaling at all - i would say you couldn't be more right.

Sadly, you can't be more wrong. Balance is awful and until we get melee 3.0, damage 2.0 and some content update, no one can say WF is balanced. Enjoyable, but certainly not balanced. Gearing corrosive only shows that even the whole damage mechanics isn't balanced at all.

Edited August 14, 2019 by 000l000

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

No. Just no.

If everyone wasn't gearing with corrosive, using Saryn only in ESO, spamming nothing but Ignis & Spin-2-win or even facerolling every content before the lvl 100-120 range and aiming for red crits cause status basically isn't scaling at all - i would say you couldn't be more right.

Sadly, you can't be more wrong. Balance is awful and until we get melee 3.0, damage 2.0 and some content update, no one can say WF is balanced. Enjoyable, but certainly not balanced. Gearing corrosive only shows that even the whole damage mechanics isn't balanced at all.

If you need Corrosive to kill enemies before lvl 100-120, you definitely have a problem. I can eradicate Grineer with full Magnetic damage if you want.

And yeah Status sucks, that's probably why Condition Overload is such a trash mod. And probably why you mentioned "Corrosive" in your first sentence, I'm pretty sure "Corrosive" is a status (is it both "Godlike" and "useless" ?). And also why Slash is a godlike status. Toxin too.

Saryn-only in ESO doesn't speak about balance but only about "rushing one content with the Meta". The game could be perfectly balanced (as all things should be), there will ALWAYS be a Meta with some weapon dealing 0.1% more damage than everything else. And then this weapon will be used by 98% of the players. Congratulations, you just understood "theorycrafting" combined with "I don't have time to test everything myself so the first YouTube video will be the only truth I'll accept". You can clear those sweet 8 ESO rounds with Saryn in 20 minutes. But you will clear the same waves in the same time with Volt, Equinox, Gara, Garuda, Trinity, Mesa, Atlas, Wukong, Titania or Gauss.

There isn't any single game in the universe which is balanced as you seem to want Warframe to be, and there will never be, unless all Warframes are template with the exact same skills and all weapons have the exact same theoretical DPS. Is that the game you want to have ? You'll be the only guy playing this S#&$.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Chewarette

[000l000]

Il y a 4 heures, Chewarette a dit :

If you need Corrosive to kill enemies before lvl 100-120, you definitely have a problem. I can eradicate Grineer with full Magnetic damage if you want.

That sounds really optimal. Perhaps you should check what means balance before replying then. Anyway if you're killing things with magnetic before lvl 100 it's good for you - that's exactly what i said, we are facerolling that content.

I spoke about corrosive, but not in that way, you're mixing everything.

Edited August 14, 2019 by 000l000

[DCaedus]

Honestly the problem I'm seeing more and more is they underpower everything lately.

They nerfed Ember to the ground a long time ago, they nerfed farming frames, because apparently they were too good at giving us "trash" resources like ferrite and poly. And they are very likely going to nerf Itzal, which I kinda understand the reason behind, but not good reason enough.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, D_Caedus said:

Honestly the problem I'm seeing more and more is they underpower everything lately.

They nerfed Ember to the ground a long time ago, they nerfed farming frames, because apparently they were too good at giving us "trash" resources like ferrite and poly. And they are very likely going to nerf Itzal, which I kinda understand the reason behind, but not good reason enough.

all archwings are slated for fat nerfs with railjack around the corner... think amesha will still make you invincible?  lol...

[DCaedus]

53 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

all archwings are slated for fat nerfs with railjack around the corner... think amesha will still make you invincible?  lol...

Maybe?

[Midas]

On 2019-08-13 at 2:03 AM, Chewarette said:

Honestly the game is in a good spot right now balance-wise, except a few Warframes which needs some tweaks (but that takes time and they're already on it).

The difficulty and scaling, well that's probably already included in the new tilesets/enemies/game modes anyway.

good meme.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

all archwings are slated for fat nerfs with railjack around the corner... think amesha will still make you invincible?  lol...

Source please.

As of now, all they've said is that every Archwing will get Blink as its forward dodge, while Itzal gets a Tether function similar to Ripline in its place. So the only Archwing getting an actual nerf is... well, it's not even the Itzal because it gets its Blink for 0 Energy.

10 hours ago, D_Caedus said:

Honestly the problem I'm seeing more and more is they underpower everything lately.

Actually, there's a theory behind that. The idea is that if DE actually wants to change the functional difficulty of the game, they'd have to do it by altering how the enemies take damage from our damage system and improve their AI so that the level scaling actually meant something instead of just becoming sponges.

If that's the case, they have three ways they can approach it. The first, and worst from DE's view, way is to simply do a massive game update that nerfs our functions, nerfs the enemy sponge-ness, and fixes the AI up. The second, and next least likely, is that they change the enemies first and leave us as over-powered gods among them completely blowing any and all balance out of the window until the changes to us come along. And the third, and most likely, is that they're under-powering us and setting us up that basic number changes will be enough to balance us, and then fix the enemy scaling.

If that third idea is correct, then all the reworks in the last couple of years so far, things like making Saryn's scaling powerful, but also more logical from a game-function stand-point, or Nezha's and Wukong's removal of total invulnerability in favour of damage reduction and timed, situational invulnerability points, all makes a lot of sense. By simply tweaking numbers in their functions they can change anything about the frames for that balance pass.

Buuut... that change is also a long way off if they're going to do anything like it.

So they're probably just worried about power creep at long last and I'm just reading into it too much.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Source please.

your information is old.  i don't have the link but i think it was the last dev stream they said openly "we need to do a balance pass on all arches before railjack" or something like that... it was said.

if you think invincibility is going to be kept in, seems highly unlikely

Edited August 16, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

"we need to do a balance pass on all arches before railjack"

A 'balance pass' this year made Wukong into the most active and well-performing Ability Melee frame in the game, putting him from an objective standpoint even above Excal, thanks to the inclusion of situational invulnerability, base (unaugmented) better stats on the melee, self healing, and a secondary source of damage, CC and defense.

You could, in your own words, use information that's older and say that a balance pass made the current Ember too, but if I get somebody saying my information is old from only a month or two ago, then why should you get to use a balance pass from back in February of 2018?

A balance pass could, and just as likely might, universally buff Archwings.

Stop trying to doom-say this, I was there for the DevStreams and nothing they said even mentioned the Amesha, let alone about whether it will keep or lose any of its abilities.

 

[Klokwerkaos]

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

A 'balance pass' this year made Wukong into the most active and well-performing Ability Melee frame in the game, putting him from an objective standpoint even above Excal, thanks to the inclusion of situational invulnerability, base (unaugmented) better stats on the melee, self healing, and a secondary source of damage, CC and defense.

You could, in your own words, use information that's older and say that a balance pass made the current Ember too, but if I get somebody saying my information is old from only a month or two ago, then why should you get to use a balance pass from back in February of 2018?

A balance pass could, and just as likely might, universally buff Archwings.

Stop trying to doom-say this, I was there for the DevStreams and nothing they said even mentioned the Amesha, let alone about whether it will keep or lose any of its abilities.

 

that's not a full balance pass, much less a large balance pass as described in the op... apparently you want to mix words.  that's fine, just know that you're using words to mean things they don't mean to achieve your point.

additionally your info about wukong is wrong.  he is good at melee if you don't factor in melee weapons, but once you do, volt is objectively better for many reasons... sorry to burst your bubble.  done the tests already.

additionally "we need to" was a poor choice of words... "they are going to" is the better way to read that.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

much less a large balance pass as described in the op

I'm not talking about the OP, I'm talking about your statement; where you tried to use DE's words about a simple balance pass to say 'yeah, doom, gloom, Amesha nerf'.

That's not what they said, stop twisting their words.

12 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

additionally your info about wukong is wrong.

Please read posts. I said

On 2019-08-17 at 10:02 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ability Melee

And I said it for that specific reason.

Regular melee can, and often does with the right frame, out-strip ability melee. However, I do want to point out that Volt still doesn't have instant access to invincibility, self healing and a mobile damage turret that can be modded as a Rhino Stomp. Even Wukong's 2 is faster than Volt's 2 and more versatile because of it's omni-directionality and not triggering any traps. So you can stick your 'Volt's a better melee frame' up your jumper, because no, he's a better generalist and has a good single ability to boost melee.

So I'm not using words to mean things they don't mean, you're not reading words and pretending you have a counter-point because of it.

Balance passes are actually, from the history of this game, almost always buffs. If you want me to address larger aspects of the game than just the most recent, then let's look at Parkour 2.0 versus Parkour 1.0. Let's take a look at Damage 2.0 versus 1.0, let's look at Focus 2.5 versus Focus 1.0, every time they've actually gone through a balance pass on the larger game systems, they've made them better.

They did a balance pass in the winter of 2017-18 on a truck-load of Primary and Secondary weapons and buffed 99% of what they touched in some way, including making all Bows have a max of a 1 second charge time (gone is the Daikyu's mandatory 3 seconds per shot) and disconnecting Beam weapons from the 'per second' limitation and making everything they did based on Fire Rate instead, one of the greatest buffs to a section of the weapon system since Melee 2.0 introduced actual scaling to that system.

And so you can keep trying to spread negativity with this, and I'm just going to hear 'balance pass' and see the game getting better.

And to loop this back around, the Amesha may even be the one Archwing that DE doesn't even touch, and the only thing that happens to it is it gets Blink on its dodge for free. A balance pass generically in Warframe means buffs. You took 'balance pass' to be 'Amesha nerf' and that's not what they said.

You're the one that's trying to use words to mean what they don't mean.

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2019-08-18 at 6:31 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm not talking about the OP, I'm talking about your statement; where you tried to use DE's words about a simple balance pass to say 'yeah, doom, gloom, Amesha nerf'.

That's not what they said, stop twisting their words.

Please read posts. I said

And I said it for that specific reason.

Regular melee can, and often does with the right frame, out-strip ability melee. However, I do want to point out that Volt still doesn't have instant access to invincibility, self healing and a mobile damage turret that can be modded as a Rhino Stomp. Even Wukong's 2 is faster than Volt's 2 and more versatile because of it's omni-directionality and not triggering any traps. So you can stick your 'Volt's a better melee frame' up your jumper, because no, he's a better generalist and has a good single ability to boost melee.

So I'm not using words to mean things they don't mean, you're not reading words and pretending you have a counter-point because of it.

Balance passes are actually, from the history of this game, almost always buffs. If you want me to address larger aspects of the game than just the most recent, then let's look at Parkour 2.0 versus Parkour 1.0. Let's take a look at Damage 2.0 versus 1.0, let's look at Focus 2.5 versus Focus 1.0, every time they've actually gone through a balance pass on the larger game systems, they've made them better.

They did a balance pass in the winter of 2017-18 on a truck-load of Primary and Secondary weapons and buffed 99% of what they touched in some way, including making all Bows have a max of a 1 second charge time (gone is the Daikyu's mandatory 3 seconds per shot) and disconnecting Beam weapons from the 'per second' limitation and making everything they did based on Fire Rate instead, one of the greatest buffs to a section of the weapon system since Melee 2.0 introduced actual scaling to that system.

And so you can keep trying to spread negativity with this, and I'm just going to hear 'balance pass' and see the game getting better.

And to loop this back around, the Amesha may even be the one Archwing that DE doesn't even touch, and the only thing that happens to it is it gets Blink on its dodge for free. A balance pass generically in Warframe means buffs. You took 'balance pass' to be 'Amesha nerf' and that's not what they said.

You're the one that's trying to use words to mean what they don't mean.

nope, you're throwing a lot of words out there though...

so lets address something... volt's melee ability is just straight better.  he has an ability that flat affects melee in the description... i'd call that a melee ability.  If you're only talking about exalted weapons and ability weapons that fit into the melee bracket, sure wukong's is best, but that's irrelevant when literally all of those weapons are garbage compared to standard melee that costs no energy...  and frankly when it comes to exalteds mesa doesn't have melee but hers is infinitely better... why you'd get literally that specific is beyond me because of how niche it is... moving on... volt doesn't need defy, or mist, or any of the other abilities.  really wukong's kit has only 2 places:  1) newbies that are undergeared 2) people that want to take random frames to endless.  He's good for newbies because he can't die, but that becomes irrelevant at mid game when you can mod every frame to be functionally immortal.  as far as endless, he's flat out not the best at it by a long shot, but he works there, if that's your thing... which is literally just for S&G's because you're actually actively working against your own rewards by doing it.

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Letter13
Let's try to be a bit more civil and less antagonistic.

[Xzorn]

Balance is not possible in the current Damage system and it's gotten progressively worse over time.

We need new foundation mechanics for the game. Scaling, Damage types, Armor, Status effects, Enemy Damage, Buff / Debuff interactions; Everything.

It's a lot of work, esp with the mess of content and janky enemy design piled on top. DE backed out twice for good reason. Instead we got immunity.