Lua Lens discussion: What's in for those who are maxed out in all 5 trees?

[Jarriaga]

After the Echoes of Umbra item was met with near universal rejection, Space Mom indicated that it would be replaced with a new "Lua Lens" for farming focus:

Quote: We're going to hold this back to act on weekend feedback and more - 2 days isn't enough time to inject all the changes we want to add, so we will release this at a later date in a different form. The reward will likely be replaced with a new 'Lua Lens' for earning Focus - details to come!

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While details arrive, I think it's safe to speculate its purpose based on the item type: Focus lens. This means it may yield more focus than an Eidolon Lens, or may gather focus for more than 1 school at a time. Assuming you are yet to max out your focus farm, this is a good item since it will speed-up your progress. However, what's there for players who already maxed out all 5 focus trees and unlocked all way-bound abilities?

Currently, I have 3 schools maxed-out, and the remaining 2 are only missing a few non-essential nodes (Way-bound are unlocked already) because I stockpile 4.5 million extra focus before I move on to the next tree in case new nodes are added in the future. So this new item is nearly useless if you're at this level. DE mentioned 2 days are not enough time for implementing some changes, but adding a new item that does nearly nothing for veteran players just further adds fuel to the fire that is veteran players feeling left out with nothing for them to do or aim for while newer players are constantly getting new ways to shorten to gap and eventually end up where we are with nothing left while we get nothing to push us forward beyond farming for the sake of farming.

I don't see this new item helping unless it does something beyond speeding-up the focus farm. If it somehow unlocked a new focus school, or used its own focus points as currency so you can make nodes from other schools way-bound after they are already maxed out, then great. It would serve as a second "level" of focus farming after the first level is completed, and building your own custom focus tree with nodes from all other tress would be a beautiful addition as a long-term time investment and goal. 

Otherwise it amounts to nothing more than obtaining a focus lens for a tree that is maxed out.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[--RV--Dopekoke]

Agreed.

[Synpai]

We don't know because there's "MORE DETAILS TO COME" X.X The lens may convey the umbra effect as well

It may be with Duviri, but it's safe to say Focus is not in its final state 😄 I've got near 20 million excess in all my schools and that's before Eidolon Shards....but it's incredibly likely Focus sees an update eventuallyTM

[xXDeadsinxX]

Was thinking of this as well, guess we will have to wait and see since Reb did say more details to come so maybe there’s more to it than what was stated, not sure.

[Jarriaga]

12 minutes ago, Synpai said:

We don't know because there's "MORE DETAILS TO COME" X.X The lens may convey the umbra effect as well

It may be with Duviri, but it's safe to say Focus is not in its final state 😄 I've got near 20 million excess in all my schools and that's before Eidolon Shards....but it's incredibly likely Focus sees an update eventuallyTM

Yes, hopefully the focus system gets an expansion in the future. Right now though? Unless the Lua Lens offers a secondary bonus ability or effect veterans can use, it amounts to nothing more than a reward squarely aimed at newer players.

9 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Was thinking of this as well, guess we will have to wait and see since Reb did say more details to come so maybe there’s more to it than what was stated, not sure.

Indeed. Hopefully it does more than what it implies.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Gabbynaru]

You maxed all 5 trees. That's more than enough reward if you ask me.

That's like asking what's in it for you endgame players when the tutorial gets reworked. Why do you need tutorial items? Same thing here, why do you need to be appeased when you've already attained the end-goal? You've already gotten your rewards, stop being greedy!

[KochDerFrettchen]

y'all noped the goofy strange item, so now we're gonna get a hastily put together stat booster.

 

I'll be happy to get a lua lense and collect school affinity faster passively, grinding them always seemed like an unnecessary hell to me.

[Jarriaga]

6 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

You maxed all 5 trees. That's more than enough reward if you ask me.
 

It was not a reward. I got nothing from doing that. I did not unlock a new tree or an ability or a mechanic that required all trees as an unlock requirement, or a new game mode that only lets you use a maxed-out operator. Plus, I accomplished it passively while farming the Arcanes I wanted and the burning step sphemera from ESO, which I still don't have.

6 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

That's like asking what's in it for you endgame players when the tutorial gets reworked. Why do you need tutorial items? Same thing here, why do you need to be appeased when you've already attained the end-goal? You've already gotten your rewards, stop being greedy!

New rewards are being added in a way that only consider new players. I believe for each new reward, item, or mechanic that is added in favor of new players, the exact same number of rewards, items, or mechanics should be added for veterans. The reason why veterans feel left out is that there is nothing being added exclusively for them.

I challenge you to mention just 1 from this year. 

Arbitration mods could have been that if it wasn't because a new player can buy those mods with plat, making them moot veteran rewards.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

exclusively for them.

As a 5 year veteran, allow me to say this: f*ck exclusivity and f*ck excluding people. This is a video game, not a meritocracy, everyone deserves to have as much fun as possible and no one should be able to have a monopoly on that.

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I got nothing from doing that.

Yeah, sure mate, now go and do a tridolon hunt with an operator that has literally nothing unlocked, see how that goes versus how it goes for your fully equipped operator, then talk to me about gaining nothing.

[Synpai]

17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Yes, hopefully the focus system gets an expansion in the future. Right now though? Unless the Lua Lens offers a secondary bonus ability or effect veterans can use, it amounts to nothing more than a reward squarely aimed at newer players.

Indeed. Hopefully it does more than what it implies.

I understand your concern. I agree it's a valid concern; however, could wait until we know a bit more. Especially when the post literally states more info to come.

Cause right now there's no where for this post to really go; we only have a piece of the story....we don't even know if the lenses will need to be crafted for example.

That being said, I've made a whole post about Focus 3.0 and hopefully these lenses will give newer players a chance to get focus faster. Doesn't really bother me either way, I tend to find something to do every update then go raid in Soul Worker. \o/

Edited August 26, 2019 by Synpai

[xXDeadsinxX]

17 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

That's like asking what's in it for you endgame players when the tutorial gets reworked. Why do you need tutorial items?

Yes, but that’s the tutorial, at the literal start of the game, where Lua is not.

17 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Same thing here, why do you need to be appeased when you've already attained the end-goal? You've already gotten your rewards, stop being greedy!

Even Reb said herself on Prime Time that the Echo of the Umbra will incentivize players, likely old and new, so that they will constantly have to farm them. Now, I know that has absolutely nothing to do with the Lens themselves, but my point is that if the Lens is just a normal Lens and nothing else, then there is little to no incentive for players to do the game mode if they are maxed their Focus Schools.

However, Reb did say on her post that there is more to come, so there could be something unique to the Lens from the already existing Lens to begin with, so we could technically be arguing about nothing here.

Edited August 26, 2019 by xXDeadsinxX

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

As a 5 year veteran, allow me to say this: f*ck exclusivity and f*ck excluding people. This is a video game, not a meritocracy, everyone deserves to have as much fun as possible and no one should be able to have a monopoly on that.

Your argument is a two way street: I am not having fun because nothing is being added for veterans. Additionally, new players can eventually become veterans and access the same content and rewards, while veterans can not become new players because even if they delete their profile and start over, they retain the experience and know what to do.

Not everything has to be scaled on a flat plane. It kills progression otherwise.

13 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Yeah, sure mate, now go and do a tridolon hunt with an operator that has literally nothing unlocked, see how that goes versus how it goes for your fully equipped operator, then talk to me about gaining nothing.

Well, I felt like I gained nothing because making my operator stronger was not why I was hunting Eidolons. I wanted the arcanes, and my operator was nothing more than a tool towards that end. Did I unlock a new node after maxing out? No. Did I unlock the ability to mix and match nodes from other schools (Other than pre-set way-bound) after maxing out? No. Did it amplify or buff all other nodes? No. Did I get a new hidden focus school? No. Did I get an operator prism you can't get otherwise? No. Did I get a new passive either for my OP or WF? No. I got nothing for it. It was the equivalent of beating DMC in Son of Sparda only to unlock easy mode as a "reward" instead of Dante Must Die difficulty. It made it easier, not rewarding. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Rawbeard]

I hope the Lua Lens can be used to simply delete lenses from your gear.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Lua lens could have some kinda Warframe passive other than collecting focus.... We will see. 

[Rogunz]

52 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

New rewards are being added in a way that only consider new players. I believe for each new reward, item, or mechanic that is added in favor of new players, the exact same number of rewards, items, or mechanics should be added for veterans. The reason why veterans feel left out is that there is nothing being added exclusively for them.

You have a strange definition of new player if it includes everyone who hasn't gone out of their way to grind millions of focus to max out their trees. Anything that makes focus easier to obtain is a reward for almost all players including lots of veterans who don't like eidolons.

 

52 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Arbitration mods could have been that if it wasn't because a new player can buy those mods with plat, making them moot veteran rewards.

Archgun rivens were absolutely a reward made for veterans just like all rivens were. The fact that you can buy them doesn't change that unless the only thing you want as a reward is something to show off that you are "better" than other players because you are a veteran. Even if that is your condition at least some of the ephemeras should count since you need to do  Arbitrations to craft them and lots of them drop from endgame content.

[Jarriaga]

44 minutes ago, Rogunz said:

You have a strange definition of new player if it includes everyone who hasn't gone out of their way to grind millions of focus to max out their trees. Anything that makes focus easier to obtain is a reward for almost all players including lots of veterans who don't like eidolons.

You misunderstand me. We already have Eidolon lenses. We can max-out daily focus standing cap in just 16 rounds of ESO. Anyone who hasn't maxed out is not due to lack of tools. I don't see many people saying Focus farming speed is slow considering how much you get when using the game mode DE directly said was designed with focus farming in mind (ESO). Also, I did not go out of my way to farm millions of focus. It's something that happened passively and progressively as I was farming something else.

Beyond that, adding a new item to make it easier doesn't change the fact it still is useless for people who already went through that. It amounts to no reward. 

44 minutes ago, Rogunz said:

Archgun rivens were absolutely a reward made for veterans just like all rivens were. The fact that you can buy them doesn't change that unless the only thing you want as a reward is something to show off that you are "better" than other players because you are a veteran. Even if that is your condition at least some of the ephemeras should count since you need to do  Arbitrations to craft them and lots of them drop from endgame content.

I am one of those players who believe there are some things you should not be able to buy with plat. I used to favor Ephemeras as a reward until DE gave the Lotus and Fae Path Ephemeras away fully built without requiring nothing more than just 1 vitus essence like all other ephemera. Their value as rewards for dedication or veteran rewards have diminished in my eyes due to these decisions that kill the concept of "earned rewards", and I believe it's just a matter of time before they start selling them fully built in the in-game store for plat. The demand for the smoke body Ephemera is cash on the table for them.... Oh, right.... They already started selling them for straight cash with Wukong Prime Access....

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Vox_Preliator]

What's in Kuva missions for players that don't want Kuva?

What's in Invasions for players that have crafted everything from them?

What's in any gamemode for players that neither want nor need what they offer?

I likely won't be bothering with Kuva Disruption more than I have to because it likely won't offer anything I want even if it handed out kuva by the million, but if I complained that it didn't offer me anything I'd be the one with whom the issue lies.  More focus in just about any form sounds good to me, ESO is so mind-numbingly boring I could never max focus more than like two days in a row at most, and it's not like Focus is mandatory for the Operator to be effective, though the health waybounds did massively increase mine's usability.

[Jarriaga]

32 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

What's in Kuva missions for players that don't want Kuva?

Something they can still farm later on when they feel like it because there is a use for Kuva and it doesn't hit a point in which you can't use it at all even if you want to.

32 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

What's in Invasions for players that have crafted everything from them?

Built Fieldrons, Detonite Injectors and Mutagen Masses for new weapons requiring them, saving you build time and resources from dojo BP's. Also reactors for new frames and weapons. There are no new nodes or focus schools to use excess focus points on.

32 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

What's in any gamemode for players that neither want nor need what they offer?

Nothing. Hence why they are abandoned and ignored when given the chance. See Infested Salvage after Nidus and Defection after Harrow.

32 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

I likely won't be bothering with Kuva Disruption more than I have to because it likely won't offer anything I want even if it handed out kuva by the million, but if I complained that it didn't offer me anything I'd be the one with whom the issue lies.  More focus in just about any form sounds good to me, ESO is so mind-numbingly boring I could never max focus more than like two days in a row at most, and it's not like Focus is mandatory for the Operator to be effective, though the health waybounds did massively increase mine's usability.

An Eidolon Lens is 2.25% affinity conversion and that's enough to max out daily standing when doing ESO with 4 lenses. A new Lua Lens would not give you other ways to farm focus unless it converted at least 30% of affinity into focus to make it a viable alternative over ESO.  

And still, it is a new reward being added with a new gameplay node tied to a mechanic that has not been updated since late 2017 and has been capped to the max by many players since then. It does nothing for those who already finished farming focus, yet this is a new reward to aid in farming focus. It is a disappointing for veteran players if it doesn't do anything else beyond aiding focus farming because it amounts to no reward.

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[sinnae]

You: milks every last ounce of novelty out of this game through thousands and thousands of hours of nonstop grinding
Also you: why is there nothing left for me to do

[AkyFenrir]

Well, we started from Umbra shards to lens now... Wouldn't have farm those shards and will most likely not farm those lenses unless there's some interesting added effect (not being the umbra thingie ...) 

Il y a 2 heures, Jarriaga a dit :

An Eidolon Lens is 2.25% affinity conversion and that's enough to max out daily standing when doing ESO with 4 lenses. A new Lua Lens would not give you other ways to farm focus unless it converted at least 30% of affinity into focus to make it a viable alternative over ESO.  

I'm capping with only 2 lenses... Trinity +melee with focus naramon. No need to get primary and secondary this way ^^

@sinnae Well, when DE talked about an "infinite" reward grind ... this should have been something. Looks like they're backing up about this and in exchange they are talking about lenses... even less reasons for us to farm it. Don't get me wrong it's great for new players but we're really gone far from our talked "infinite reward". That's my problem there. 

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by AkyFenrir

[Klokwerkaos]

all my focus was done like a year ago.

if i can trade this for plat that's fine, but it has to be enough plat to bother with.  currently eidolon lenses are nice plat as long as i passively farm them while doing other stuff.

if this is something that kills that market and ends up being worth 10p then I"ll be very disappointed.

[Jarriaga]

2 hours ago, sinnae said:

You: milks every last ounce of novelty out of this game through thousands and thousands of hours of nonstop grinding
Also you: why is there nothing left for me to do

I maxed out my trees passively while aiming for specific arcanes, the Braton Vandal, then the Burning Step Ephemera (Which I still don't have). In many days I just logged in to do an ESO run and logged off. Only 25 minutes of time invested for that day. 

Does that sound so extreme even though my goal was not focus farming but rather items that are painfully hard on me to get due to RNG? 

Please try not to be so facetious. It adds nothing to the discussion.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Jarriaga

[sinnae]

I actually think it's very pertinent to the discussion that the absolute tiniest minority of players with as advanced a degree of completion as you should not dictate the rewards for the rest of the playerbase. Hope that clears things up! 🙂 

[Jarriaga]

16 minutes ago, sinnae said:

I actually think it's very pertinent to the discussion that the absolute tiniest minority of players with as advanced a degree of completion as you should not dictate the rewards for the rest of the playerbase. Hope that clears things up! 🙂 

Your argument is a two way street: I actually believe players who are yet to make enough progress in the game should not dictate the rewards for those who have. Particularly so because eventually, if you stay long enough, you will find yourself sitting where I am today while I can not go back to where you are. 

As I posted above: I believe for each new reward, item, or mechanic that is added in favor of new players, the exact same number of rewards, items, or mechanics should be added for veterans. Does that sound so unreasonable to you? A balance between both sides so they are both happy?

I mean, why must one side feel constantly left out? Why must we feel ignored and like DE doesn't want us to be here playing their game anymore by constantly shafting us? Why must we be treated like we have an expiration date and are not allowed to progress further? What was the point of dedicating yourself to farming all weapons and frames then? I mean, they give you more loadout slots, increased minimum slot capacity, void traces, and syndicate standing by increasing your MR level with farming, so it was incentivized for me to do so.

3 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Well, we started from Umbra shards to lens now... Wouldn't have farm those shards and will most likely not farm those lenses unless there's some interesting added effect (not being the umbra thingie ...) 

At this stage, even a temporary umbra passive buff is starting to sound better to me because it would at least be something new that I could use.... That's how low the bar is.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Xaero]

I've got every focus school maxed, but still gonna farm for Lua lens if it gives focus to multiple schools at once, just to stock up on focus. Why? Because DE definitely planned to introduce new focus nodes in future (not sure if the idea was eventually dumped though).