Gender skins

[Katinka]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is also another thing people arent thnking about because it is a very of-the-beaten-path kinda issue. How should Wukong and Nezha be treated, or other future possible frames that may be based more on a deity? Should they risk doing genderbenders for those or should they play it safe? I mean even Blizzard were forced to change colors on some Symmetra skins because they were too much alike certain hindu deities. Certain people go on crusades for such small stupid things and often end up being "right" even if it isnt an actual depiction of their deities.

A not-so-quick Google search tells me that both Nezha and Wukong have been depicted as female before in other games/media (for example Seven Knights and the Fate series) and Wukong took the appearance of a beautiful concubine in the book Xiyoubu (or "Supplement to the Journey to the West") written around 1640.  Given he's a master of the 72 Earthly Transformations, it's not that surprising that he could and did.  I doubt DE would have to worry about any militant action regarding these two.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Katinka

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

I'm not the one presenting my argument as a rational thing when it is entirely emotional, you are, and if you want to try and apply logic to it then you should be ready to support it with factual and logical points in its favor. You didn't say you personally disagree because you just don't like the idea, you said you don't think it would fit reason x y and z, and now you are trying to swap focus since you none of those reasonings were able to hold up to any level of genuine thought. Either there is rationale or there is not, you're back peddling makes me think there is not, likewise with your selective view on where your logic is being applied.  

All of yours reasons have failed to make any actual sense, you've not been able to support them, and now you aren't even trying to it seems. 

Boring to you. And I didn't decide anything, you did when you tried to present your argument as factual and rationale rather than emotional which apparently is what it has fallen to. 

That would be up to DE, if it wasn't showing any benefit I would not blame them for discontinuing however. 

If DE have opted to go so extensively into that design path then they'll manage. 

That'd be again up to DE, their pr department in specific, when the times comes and with their ability to measure the impact of such instances should such a thing even happen given how far off the artistic style of this game is. I'm not a seer and I'm not going to just assume the future or operate in vague hypotheticals. 

It doesnt matter if I mention x, y or z, they are still personal opinions and nothing else. You are the one reading into what I'm actually saying, it isnt me saying it though.

And the reasons are there in the lore aswell as in the real world (when it comes to names). But those are still my opinions on it.

And never once have I tried to present anything as factual, except for possibly when I drew the comparison to machine models aswell as explaining to you regarding the "valkyrie" thing that the words are of an actual specific gender nature and not something about whatever it was you called it.

You wouldnt maybe, but how many does that apply to on this other so ragey forum?

Sure, but should they just focus on primes then or do both them and normals? And if they do the primes, should they ignore Excal completely?

For Overwatch it didnt happen until the character models were already in the game. And that was just a matter of colors really. Just imagine if a religious person starts going "nope you cant give X boobs because it is shaming my religion!". But it is anyways a very far fetched problem, I just mentioned it as a could happen things. Honestly it is something I personally would push just to piss those few extremists off.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

How do you rationalize deluxes I wonder. Or tennogen? New helmets? Why do you assume alternate helmets we have are from the past, but the ones that would result from this suggestion must be hand made in present day? 

And looking at how virtually all infested turn out that is a very broad and uninformed leap to make, everything we've seen would suggest frames developed to the contrary due to their infested state, and that Orokin likely had to cut and remold them to make them appear humanoid and feminine or masculine again after all was said and done. We must remember the infestations is an asexually reproducing bio weapon, it has no care or interest in preserving sex specific biology or characteristics, it's default progression is to completely warp and reform its hosts into things something other and there's no reason to think that suddenly doesn't apply now. Plenty of the game already tells us the transformation process from human to frame is beyond extreme, and leaves them starkly ressemblant of being human, even when cut into. 

Deluxe is simply an ornate extra special frame chassis. Tennogen can be anything from Mad Max ablatives to a hidden prototype chassis. The indication that alt helmets are from the past is because we create them through blueprints much like the frames.

Warframes dont use regular "wild" infestation though. And what you refer to as "cut and remold" is very likely more scientific and more bio-engineering than anything else. We are talking about the highly advanced Orokin afterall. So chances are the mass shapes into an intended form, or a form based on the original living frame biomass that was the first of that model type. You know the willing and unwilling Dax, the first frames long before the hostless biomass was implemented. Just as the man from the sacrifice either was the original Excal, or his infestation took that shape based on the original and the will of Ballas.

Just as the Rhino entry tells of a biomass that we cant really pinpoint as neither male or female, just a hulking raging beast i.e Rhino pre-chassis, neuropics and systems.

[Cubewano]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

It doesnt matter if I mention x, y or z, they are still personal opinions and nothing else. You are the one reading into what I'm actually saying, it isnt me saying it though.

And the reasons are there in the lore aswell as in the real world (when it comes to names). But those are still my opinions on it.

And never once have I tried to present anything as factual, except for possibly when I drew the comparison to machine models aswell as explaining to you regarding the "valkyrie" thing that the words are of an actual specific gender nature and not something about whatever it was you called it.

You wouldnt maybe, but how many does that apply to on this other so ragey forum?

Sure, but should they just focus on primes then or do both them and normals? And if they do the primes, should they ignore Excal completely?

For Overwatch it didnt happen until the character models were already in the game. And that was just a matter of colors really. Just imagine if a religious person starts going "nope you cant give X boobs because it is shaming my religion!". But it is anyways a very far fetched problem, I just mentioned it as a could happen things. Honestly it is something I personally would push just to piss those few extremists off.

They are not, you cannot call a factual claim just personal opinion, either it is factual or it is a false hood. There isn't an in-between.  

Feel free to re-read our previous interactions if you've forgotten the gaps in those arguments. 

You can and still are presenting your arguments as factual and rationale, even though they clearly aren't accurate or founded in fact, from lore based reservations to technical management. But again, if your memory is failing you can easily look back to our prior interactions if you need a memory jog. 

Who cares? Unless that bleeds into active sales which neither you or I can predict it isn't a point of argument. 

DE can decide that, though the defaults seem like the natural starting point. 

Hypothetical be purely hypothetical. May as well look into a glass ball for answers on this one. 

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

A not-so-quick Google search tells me that both Nezha and Wukong have been depicted as female before in other games/media (for example Seven Knights and the Fate series) and Wukong took the appearance of a beautiful concubine in the book Xiyoubu (or "Supplement to the Journey to the West") written around 1640.  Given he's a master of the 72 Earthly Transformations, it's not that surprising that he could and did.  I doubt DE would have to worry about any militant action regarding these two.

Indeed, it was just an example of what could happen. Not saying it would be an issue with Wukong or Nezha, they are simply the only two example we have here, because scandinavians dont really give a crap about what cool things their gods are used for, so Loki wouldnt really be a good example to bring up.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

They are not, you cannot call a factual claim just personal opinion, either it is factual or it is a false hood. There isn't an in-between.  

Feel free to re-read our previous interactions if you've forgotten the gaps in those arguments. 

You can and still are presenting your arguments as factual and rationale, even though they clearly aren't accurate or founded in fact, from lore based reservations to technical management. But again, if your memory is failing you can easily look back to our prior interactions if you need a memory jog. 

Who cares? Unless that bleeds into active sales which neither you or I can predict it isn't a point of argument. 

DE can decide that, though the defaults seem like the natural starting point. 

Hypothetical be purely hypothetical. May as well look into a glass ball for answers on this one. 

 

 

It would be a thing if I claimed that anything I said were facts, but I simply havent. You are the one claiming that I claim that I presented facts. And the thing always goes two ways, so where are your massive facts for your opinions, if that is what we need to start doing from now on i.e present facts for opinions?

And regarding who cares? I obviously do since I would rather see new frames and more interesting costumes.

Yeah DE can decide and it already seems like they have.

Hypothetical yes, glass ball area, no. It is a fairly recent event that whole thing, so it is an actual issue in this day and age where everyone gets offended over the slightest thing. I dont think it would happen here because I doubt religious chinese people would care. But if they introduce something with a Hindu theme S#&$ may start rolling because those guys are on the bite, atleast parts of the american hindus.

[Katinka]

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

so Loki wouldnt really be a good example to bring up.

Loki would also be a bad example given that he once transformed into a female horse and was mother Odin's eight legged horse, Sleipnir, so maybe his alt-sex skin should have a horse-like helm? 

[Cubewano]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Deluxe is simply an ornate extra special frame chassis. Tennogen can be anything from Mad Max ablatives to a hidden prototype chassis. The indication that alt helmets are from the past is because we create them through blueprints much like the frames.

Warframes dont use regular "wild" infestation though. And what you refer to as "cut and remold" is very likely more scientific and more bio-engineering than anything else. We are talking about the highly advanced Orokin afterall. So chances are the mass shapes into an intended form, or a form based on the original living frame biomass that was the first of that model type. You know the willing and unwilling Dax, the first frames long before the hostless biomass was implemented. Just as the man from the sacrifice either was the original Excal, or his infestation took that shape based on the original and the will of Ballas.

Just as the Rhino entry tells of a biomass that we cant really pinpoint as neither male or female, just a hulking raging beast i.e Rhino pre-chassis, neuropics and systems.

And that differs in method how to a alternate sex skin? And where do the helmets and designs for all these cosmetics land given your timeline reservations? None of them are crafted. 

But they still use the infestation, and all experience up to now suggest wild physical alterations that distance the host from its initial build and design. Any further assumption on the form is just baseless at this point. We know what control they had over even the new strain wasn't potent enough to pacify their subjects and keep them in line so it's unlikely their powers over the virus had advanced all that much since its initial creation, the biggest leap they had was the tenno and just as mental hijackers of a sort. Otherwise the known process for creating a tenno was still fraught with physical manipulations through the use a virus known exclusively to warp forms away from their initial design and resulted in a creature who internally holds no suggestion of ever being of human origins, all heavily suggestions a departure from the human form not a preservation of. The great range of styles frames come in compounds on the notion their builds are very likely unnaturally molded, or otherwise it is a rather extreme convenience they present in such an artistically viable way for the oh so aesthetically wanting Orokin. 

We could also explore the questionable nature of Excalibur Umbra and how seems to take after Excalibur the base design albeit oh so clearly being conceived from an entirely separate human being. Excalibur was after all labelled the first, and Umbra was an exception after the advent of frames as a punishment so not quite the first. If this strain is so individualistic then why did two individuals wind up with nearly identical forms given the suggested range it can have with via all other frames? 

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It would be a thing if I claimed that anything I said were facts, but I simply havent. You are the one claiming that I claim that I presented facts. And the thing always goes two ways, so where are your massive facts for your opinions, if that is what we need to start doing from now on i.e present facts for opinions?

And regarding who cares? I obviously do since I would rather see new frames and more interesting costumes.

Yeah DE can decide and it already seems like they have.

Hypothetical yes, glass ball area, no. It is a fairly recent event that whole thing, so it is an actual issue in this day and age where everyone gets offended over the slightest thing. I dont think it would happen here because I doubt religious chinese people would care. But if they introduce something with a Hindu theme S#&$ may start rolling because those guys are on the bite, atleast parts of the american hindus.

You did, with each factual claim you made. Again, you can revisit the entire history of our conversation at will if you are feeling forgetful. 

And if you feel I've made factual claims that seem unsupported feel free to point them out.

By your rationale nothing would be able to be done since there is always someone with some inconceivable grievance in the hypothetical. So again, who cares for the entire premise you are presenting?

Then you will be fine should they ever change track, glad to hear. 

The ball said it's unlikely, make of that what you will. 

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Cubewano said:

And that differs in method how to a alternate sex skin? And where do the helmets and designs for all these cosmetics land given your timeline reservations? None of them are crafted. 

But they still use the infestation, and all experience up to now suggest wild physical alterations that distance the host from its initial build and design. Any further assumption on the form is just baseless at this point. We know what control they had over even the new strain wasn't potent enough to pacify their subjects and keep them in line so it's unlikely their powers over the virus had advanced all that much since its initial creation, the biggest leap they had was the tenno and just as mental hijackers of a sort. Otherwise the known process for creating a tenno was still fraught with physical manipulations through the use a virus known exclusively to warp forms away from their initial design and resulted in a creature who internally holds no suggestion of ever being of human origins, all heavily suggestions a departure from the human form not a preservation of. The great range of styles frames come in compounds on the notion their builds are very likely unnaturally molded, or otherwise it is a rather extreme convenience they present in such an artistically viable way for the oh so aesthetically wanting Orokin. 

We could also explore the questionable nature of Excalibur Umbra and how seems to take after Excalibur the base design albeit oh so clearly being conceived from an entirely separate human being. Excalibur was after all labelled the first, and Umbra was an exception after the advent of frames as a punishment so not quite the first. If this strain is so individualistic then why did two individuals wind up with nearly identical forms given the suggested range it can have with via all other frames? 

Some are crafted, not all. And we are comparing chassis components to bio-organic mass. There is a huge difference in swapping a chassis on something, compared to changing the inside, even on something that is purely mechanical. 

It is still not the infestation, it is a manipulated strain of it. It started with actual subjects (willing and unwilling) to make up the bio-mass, by introducing them to the infested version used. This was pre primes and pre tenno. When those didnt work they tried to use the tenno to control them. After that didnt work as planned they introduced a new line of frame (likely the primes) that were just based on the old frames, but with a bio-mass core without a host to attach to. Somewhere in all of this, maybe/possibly after, the punishment experiments such as the one that turned into our Umbra Excal happened.  But the frames are all in the end copies of copies of copies that keep the base physical attributes of the original. The tenno are simply following old aswell as ancient schematics when building them.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea from that I said the strain is individualistic. It is an organic-nanite compound that does what it is told according to the schematics provided in order to house the mechanical aspects of the individual frame they are intended for.

There is no real questionable nature of Umbra, except for the part where Ballas decided to use living hosts again. By the looks of it, the Umbra line (likely called something else by the Orokin) were intended to be the MK3 frames, more specialized in fighting the sentients. Given how they came with their own specific modifications focused on fighting sentients. Ballas also took this chance to punishing his opposition by turning them into frames. Somewhere he probably thought that the extra control tech implemented into the Primes would rid them of the mental problems that were present in the MK1 frames that went mad. That didnt work though, atleast not as far as we know. In the end it was simply a man introduced to the strain which was told to create the core for an excalibur model frame.

15 hours ago, Katinka said:

Loki would also be a bad example given that he once transformed into a female horse and was mother Odin's eight legged horse, Sleipnir, so maybe his alt-sex skin should have a horse-like helm? 

If they ever make genderbenders, yes definently a must!

[Deshiel]

This is a recurring request. So recurring that it even appeared on a Devstream and Steve was visibly upset this S#&$ is on again and he was like No we will never do that.

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Some are crafted, not all. And we are comparing chassis components to bio-organic mass. There is a huge difference in swapping a chassis on something, compared to changing the inside, even on something that is purely mechanical. 

It is still not the infestation, it is a manipulated strain of it. It started with actual subjects (willing and unwilling) to make up the bio-mass, by introducing them to the infested version used. This was pre primes and pre tenno. When those didnt work they tried to use the tenno to control them. After that didnt work as planned they introduced a new line of frame (likely the primes) that were just based on the old frames, but with a bio-mass core without a host to attach to. Somewhere in all of this, maybe/possibly after, the punishment experiments such as the one that turned into our Umbra Excal happened.  But the frames are all in the end copies of copies of copies that keep the base physical attributes of the original. The tenno are simply following old aswell as ancient schematics when building them.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea from that I said the strain is individualistic. It is an organic-nanite compound that does what it is told according to the schematics provided in order to house the mechanical aspects of the individual frame they are intended for.

There is no real questionable nature of Umbra, except for the part where Ballas decided to use living hosts again. By the looks of it, the Umbra line (likely called something else by the Orokin) were intended to be the MK3 frames, more specialized in fighting the sentients. Given how they came with their own specific modifications focused on fighting sentients. Ballas also took this chance to punishing his opposition by turning them into frames. Somewhere he probably thought that the extra control tech implemented into the Primes would rid them of the mental problems that were present in the MK1 frames that went mad. That didnt work though, atleast not as far as we know. In the end it was simply a man introduced to the strain which was told to create the core for an excalibur model frame.

No deluxes or tennogen are crafted, they are exclusively purchased, helms and all. And the deluxes skins are an entire physical mold change, no different to what a alternate sex skin would necessitate. 

It is the infestation, we know that much, its just so far as we know (or assume really) an alternate strain that leaves their hosts pacified/hollowed out rather than linked to the rest of the infestation, with the difference being so meek that even the infestation seem to still confuse us as their own, and the physical exchange being so extreme that even when cut into the human physiology was all but gone. So under those context there is again nothing that suggests your theory frames are custom built by their infested strain to appear how they do, not remotely, then this copy theory further aligns with that notion since having multiples of the same design come from different biological products suggests a clear disconnect between the two, the infestation process and the end physique. 

You're notion that the builds are unique to the hosts suggests it must be individualistic by nature, taking on the unique genetic code of that host and mirroring it as it creates what you believe is a human physique for the frame. But as noted above, there are numerous holes in that kind of theory. 

 But if your theory is now swapping to they can design the strain to make a physique (which i'm not agreeing is canon and there is nothing to suggest it) and that's all the trouble it takes, why again is an alternate sex template not an option if it has nothing to do with the host? If anything this just shows the range of options frames truly can have as their design is fully malleable and based on the creators want near entirely. 

1 hour ago, Deshiel said:

This is a recurring request. So recurring that it even appeared on a Devstream and Steve was visibly upset this S#&$ is on again and he was like No we will never do that.

So far as I'm aware we've only gotten a maybe from devstream responses with DE indiciating it was an original want of theirs they had to unfortunately put away because of their rocky start, never was an explicit no made or furthermore devs acting distraught at the notion. Can you link me to what devstream you seem to be referring to? 

[Jarriaga]

In-game lore is structured in such a way that each frame is implied to be unique and the only one in existence. For example, it was not a Gara that took down the Eidolon Sentient, but just Gara, as if she's the only Gara that can be referenced. Same for Revenant. This is further supported by the events of The Sacrifice. If so, each frame is unique and not something that can be gender-swapped.

Sure us Tenno have multiple copies of each frame, but that's just a gameplay concession so WF's playerbase is not 50 players. In my opinion, this is the main reason why DE said they are open to explore the same theme on a different gender, but not gender-swapping the existing frame. Other reasons involve modeling and animation work, but considering they could just make neutral animations (Zephyr) rather than noticeable female animations (Khora/Mirage/Wisp), then it boils down to the in-game universe lore working as unique frames.

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

Nah I’m ok with just the operators. frames are who they are

Edited September 11, 2019 by (PS4)CodyXSavageX

[Swagernator22663]

Guys why is this thread still going ? OP is not even playing the game anymore.

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

9 minutes ago, Swagernator22663 said:

Guys why is this thread still going ? OP is not even playing the game anymore.

Probably some irrelevant argument 

[Mak_Gohae]

This requires no workload, just have a contest and the winners get sold as tennogen.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I for one would welcome male gender swaps of all female frames (I'd just use the default idle animations, rather than the frame-specific ones that have all the female flair.)

I understand some guys like running around looking at a pretty female form, but I'd rather play a more comfortable same-y form to my own, instead.

Lore-wise, the Orokin took body modding to an extreme (changing the lengths of their appendages, color of their skin, etc) and body-swapped themselves with new hosts to extend their lives, as part of continuity. There's no lore either way, if they kept to their own gender/sex (I use them interchangeably, I don't care) when they chose new bodies. The Operator tenno is a single gender, and controls warframes of either, with no issues. I don't think, from what I've seen of the lore, including Sacrifice, that the warframes themselves keep any real identity beyond an "echo", and the Tenno just calm the infested mindless beast that's in confusion/agony/rage, and gain control of its body. (The whole Rhino pre-tenno shows them to be more to be mindless beasts than people in twisted forms, at least from my standpoint.)

Some frames may never make sense to have a male form (Mirage and Valkyr seem like candidates for this, but even then, I wouldn't rule them out), mainly because the quest frames and those with prime trailers seem to imply a more unique "character" to the frame, than new boss-part-drop-only frames - which is not to say that each individual tenno couldn't customize their warframes using the Helminth room to do the fancy bio-engineering work. (given how advanced the Orokin were, i don't put it past their technology to have a "push button to toggle male or female helminth frame" type of controls built into the orbiter's manufacturing systems.

The mere fact that DE intended to originally have both genders for each frame, but cut the option due to practical costs involved in art creation at the time, shows that it would have originally been possible, and had no lore reason not to be the case.

I don't see an issue with a slow roll-out, when the art team gets inspired to make an alternate version of a particular frame (I've played this long without them.)
 

[Katinka]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

In-game lore is structured in such a way that each frame is implied to be unique and the only one in existence. For example, it was not a Gara that took down the Eidolon Sentient, but just Gara, as if she's the only Gara that can be referenced. Same for Revenant.

Lore like that already gets messed up by Primes.  For example Limbo, who's quest sees us recover blueprints for him after what is implied to be the only one was lost inbetween dimensions due to a small mathematical error, yet there is a Prime version we can get too.

2 hours ago, Swagernator22663 said:

Guys why is this thread still going ? OP is not even playing the game anymore.

It's a discussion, people post things on the given topic that then inspire other people to post things.  It's what forums are for and the absence of the OP doesn't mean the rest of us can't keep discussing, as long as we keep it civil.

51 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

(I'd just use the default idle animations, rather than the frame-specific ones that have all the female flair.)

There's always the Excalibur Umbra idle animations that you get for free after The Sacrifice (or any you might choose to purchase).

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Katinka said:

Lore like that already gets messed up by Primes.  For example Limbo, who's quest sees us recover blueprints for him after what is implied to be the only one was lost inbetween dimensions due to a small mathematical error, yet there is a Prime version we can get too.

 BP's are only an in-game mechanic for fabrication with no meaning beyond that.

It's likely the Orokin referred to Prime WF's as if they were the original ones (Excalibur Prime was just Excalibur for them) and the quest could have been just you getting Limbo Prime (Simply called Limbo) but you ended up with an inferior copy (Regular Limbo, worse stats) because you don't have the necessary Orokin technology in order to create a perfect replica. This also explains why Prime frames have better stats (Or rather, why regular frames have worse stats), why there are no quests for Prime frames, and why you'll see see a Harrow Prime, Inaros Prime, Titania Prime and Revenant Prime despite their in-game lore.

Revenant in particular. It was a originally known as a different WF called "The Warden", which then got exposed to the remnants of the Sentient killed by Gara. Having Revenant Prime still somehow follow this exact same development pattern so it can result in the same frame is convoluted beyond absurdity. The alternative (All of that happened to the original Revenant Prime, then simply called Revenant) is a lot more simple and less convoluted.

I am yet to read a Codex entry for a regular frame or its Prime counterpart that hints at there being more than one of it. Even Valkyr Prime. There's no reason why she would have the same anger screams and abilities as her normal counterpart if she was a completely different frame back then. Either she was like that from the beginning and Alad V. captured a Tenno recreation (Gersemi), or it's just an in-game update with no meaning beyond that because DE didn't know the game would stay afloat for so long that they got to release Valkyr Prime.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Kingsmount]

Whenever this topic comes up, people act like it requires every frame ever to come with an alt-gender form.

Instead of the obvious fact that it would just be a skin line similar to the immortals,  a form of deluxe skin only some frames get and only once in a blue moon,  and like a deluxe skin alters the model more than just a paint job skin does.  Though I would recommend that whenever they do get released they come in pairs,  one male frame to female frame, and one female frame to male frame,  if not in a sequence of mfmfmfmf-

It could also be similar to Smash Brothers,  where to my understanding different characters share the same base fighter.   So it's a skin, but in universe it's a different frame with a matching move pool, or an alternate dimension variation. Though not necessarily canonical, like any skin.

 

Top votes in my opinion:  Limbo, Nezha, and Saryn, Trinity.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Kingsmount

[Katinka]

13 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

BP's are only an in-game mechanic for fabrication with no meaning beyond that.

Except that "Limbo part blueprint" is a term used by Ordis.  Not that it matters really, I could have said "plan" or "theorem", my point was that the quest implies a singular Limbo that ours is based on but isn't explicitly referring to the Prime.

17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It's likely the Orokin referred to Prime WF's as if they were the original ones (Excalibur Prime was just Excalibur for them) and the quest could have been just you getting Limbo Prime (Simply called Limbo) but you ended up with an inferior copy (Regular Limbo, worse stats) because you don't have the necessary Orokin technology in order to create a perfect replica. This also explains why Prime frames have better stats (Or rather, why regular frames have worse stats), why there are no quests for Prime frames, and why you'll see see a Harrow Prime, Inaros Prime, Titania Prime and Revenant Prime despite their in-game lore.

I like that idea, that the Orokin just didn't bother with the Prime suffix.  You could also add Valkyr to the list of frames where the lore refers to the singular original without calling it out as a Prime.  It doesn't work so well with Chroma though, unless that's a case of it not being the Prime and it's already a copy that we are copying.

19 minutes ago, Kingsmount said:

It could also be similar to Smash Brothers,  where to my understanding different characters share the same base fighter.   So it's a skin, but in universe it's a different frame with a matching move pool, or an alternate dimension variation. Though not necessarily canonical, like any skin.

Injustice does that as well with Powergirl being a skin for Supergirl, two Green Lanterns with one being a skin for the other, and all four Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles being one character but your weapon choice defines their moves and voice/lines.

[Cubewano]

On 2019-09-11 at 10:49 AM, Jarriaga said:

In-game lore is structured in such a way that each frame is implied to be unique and the only one in existence. For example, it was not a Gara that took down the Eidolon Sentient, but just Gara, as if she's the only Gara that can be referenced. Same for Revenant. This is further supported by the events of The Sacrifice. If so, each frame is unique and not something that can be gender-swapped.

Sure us Tenno have multiple copies of each frame, but that's just a gameplay concession so WF's playerbase is not 50 players. In my opinion, this is the main reason why DE said they are open to explore the same theme on a different gender, but not gender-swapping the existing frame. Other reasons involve modeling and animation work, but considering they could just make neutral animations (Zephyr) rather than noticeable female animations (Khora/Mirage/Wisp), then it boils down to the in-game universe lore working as unique frames.

Can't say I agree there, this game manages to be rather vague and inconclusive about just how many of a frame does exist in the game, never directly stating either state on its own. We get frames from quests with apparent personality quirks, but its never made clear if that's from the frame or the tenno behind the frame, they get referred to by name but we don't know if that's for the sake of character recognition (a frame name is about as specific as one can get in referring to a frame without stepping into spoiler territory) or something more as you've chosen to assume. It's worth noting in a comic series written by DE they do actually refer to a frame with a secondary modifier at one point when the Lotus is requesting a rescue, which moves counter to the notion that frames are singular, asking a separate tenno to save "this excalibur" rather than "the excalibur" or just simply "excalibur" which prompts the question of why that would be used if there was only a single one of that unit. It also wouldn't quite make sense that there is a vast number of tenno, but only a handful of frames for them to all share, which has been the implication for the game for quite a while. 

And DE said they were open to the idea of alternate sex options/skins, in fact it was an initial want of theirs for the game, they simply weren't confident at the time that people would be satisfied with such a practice or otherwise responsive enough to it. This was naturally before deluxes took off and DE were made aware there was more than enough interest in just new meshes alone to be a viable investment, and since then DE hasn't made a comment. Their openness to the idea however suggests they don't believe it'd have any lore interference, it certainly has never been mentioned as a point of conflict or reservation when the topic has been addressed. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Cubewano

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

Can't say I agree there, this game manages to be rather vague and inconclusive about just how many of a frame does exist in the game, never directly stating either state on its own. We get frames from quests with apparent personality quirks, but its never made clear if that's from the frame or the tenno behind the frame, they get referred to by name but we don't know if that's for the sake of character recognition (a frame name is about as specific as one can get in referring to a frame without stepping into spoiler territory) or something more as you've chosen to assume. It's worth noting in a comic series written by DE they do actually refer to a frame with a secondary modifier at one point when the Lotus is requesting a rescue, which moves counter to the notion that frames are singular, asking a separate tenno to save "this excalibur" rather than "the excalibur" or just simply "excalibur" which prompts the question of why that would be used if there was only a single one of that unit. It also wouldn't quite make sense that there is a vast number of tenno, but only a handful of frames for them to all share, which has been the implication for the game for quite a while. 

And DE said they were open to the idea of alternate sex options/skins, in fact it was an initial want of theirs for the game, they simply weren't confident at the time that people would be satisfied with such a practice or otherwise responsive enough to it. This was naturally before deluxes took off and DE were made aware there was more than enough interest in just new meshes alone to be a viable investment, and since then DE hasn't made a comment. Their openness to the idea however suggests they don't believe it'd have any lore interference, it certainly has never been mentioned as a point of conflict or reservation when the topic has been addressed. 

That is lore outside the game which may or may not be cannon. Show me a single instance of in-game lore in which frame's feats, descriptions, or codex entries imply more than one of it and I'll concede your point.

Otherwise, how would you go about creating multiple Revenants? Would they all have to wait for a Gara to kill a specific Sentient, then guard its corpse for a set amount of time until it starts trying to use the "Warden" frame to revive itself, then the Warden seals itself with it so we can get another Revenant? That's convoluted beyond absurdity.

How about Harrow? Or Titania? Or Inaros? This only makes sense if multiple frames are nothing more than gameplay concessions, and canonically, there's only one of each. There could have been thousands of different Warframes, but only one of each. I have not seen DE say that they are open to alternative sex skins.At least not on their end. They allowing non-cannon Tennogen artists to express themselves does not change how the frame's cannon look functions and its animations. What I know for certain is that they've said they are open to exploring the same theme in a different gender. A female ice frame would not be just a female skin for Frost because she'd have her own abilities and her own animations.

Quirks and personality traits serve no purpose beyond offering a visual complimentary accessory. Otherwise, you are looking at a level of sentience way above Umbra if it is the frame itself, or serious cases or living in your cosplay for unhealthy amounts of time if Nidus's and Inaros's animations are due to their Tenno choosing to behave that way. What we know for certain, is that by taking them as nothing more than visual accessories, DE are still making distinctively female (Wisp) animations instead of neutral animations (Zephyr), which means making the animations appropriate for a male/female variant is not a concern at all regardless of the core reason (Which I personally believe is due to them considering each frame as unique).

And still, that is still looking way too deep into it. The moment you start looking into the implications of XYZ instead of taking it at face value the way it is presented, you end up with issues tied to the practicality of implementation like the Harry Potter lore discussions in which there should be no toilets in Hogwartz because they are a human invention, and all human inventions were canonically rejected by mages in their universe.

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

That is lore outside the game which may or may not be cannon. Show me a single instance of in-game lore in which frame's feats, descriptions, or codex entries imply more than one of it and I'll concede your point.

Otherwise, how would you go about creating multiple Revenants? Would they all have to wait for a Gara to kill a specific Sentient, then guard its corpse for a set amount of time until it starts trying to use the "Warden" frame to revive itself, then the Warden seals itself with it so we can get another Revenant? That's convoluted beyond absurdity.

How about Harrow? Or Titania? Or Inaros? This only makes sense if multiple frames are nothing more than gameplay concessions, and canonically, there's only one of each. There could have been thousands of different Warframes, but only one of each. I have not seen DE say that they are open to alternative sex skins.At least not on their end. They allowing non-cannon Tennogen artists to express themselves does not change how the frame's cannon look functions and its animations. What I know for certain is that they've said they are open to exploring the same theme in a different gender. A female ice frame would not be just a female skin for Frost because she'd have her own abilities and her own animations.

Quirks and personality traits serve no purpose beyond offering a visual complimentary accessory. Otherwise, you are looking at a level of sentience way above Umbra if it is the frame itself, or serious cases or living in your cosplay for unhealthy amounts of time if Nidus's and Inaros's animations are due to their Tenno choosing to behave that way. What we know for certain, is that by taking them as nothing more than visual accessories, DE are still making distinctively female (Wisp) animations instead of neutral animations (Zephyr), which means making the animations appropriate for a male/female variant is not a concern at all regardless of the core reason (Which I personally believe is due to them considering each frame as unique).

And still, that is still looking way too deep into it. The moment you start looking into the implications of XYZ instead of taking it at face value the way it is presented, you end up with issues tied to the practicality of implementation like the Harry Potter lore discussions in which there should be no toilets in Hogwartz because they are a human invention, and all human inventions were canonically rejected by mages in their universe.

It was lore made with the intent of being a part of the games lore, and has had active effects within the game including characters from it being introduced to the genuine game with references to events within the material. It is as reliable as any piece of lore provided by DE. Otherwise, as again noted, it isn't clear in any direction how many of a frame there is, or at least not to my awareness. 

And what do you mean how does one make multiples of a frame? By using the blueprints we acquire as the central means of making them. That's generally how duplicates of any product work, you get a blueprint, acquire the resources, and produce the end result as many times as you feel practical. Blueprints don't have a limited use period before they stop having the same result, they aren't going up in smoke after we discover them and use them a first time around. 

In regards to personality and quirks, I meant thematically within the writing, like how vividly angry the Valkyr entry is, or how playful the initial Mirage from the quest is, people often convolute that with the frame being clearly a specific individual, I'm just supplying that such a notion is guess work at best given how vague those instances are. If you don't recognize that then I suppose its not a point of concern for you then however. 

I will say you did lose me with this wizard toiletry business though. If you're saying we shouldn't look too deeply into the story, that doesn't really change anything, the surface level is incredibly vague and inconclusive on this matter. The most express sentiment we've gotten is again that sentiment with the "this excalibur" and even that feels rather light doesn't it? Or perhaps I've misunderstood?

[Katinka]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

That is lore outside the game which may or may not be cannon. Show me a single instance of in-game lore in which frame's feats, descriptions, or codex entries imply more than one of it and I'll concede your point.

In Hidden Messages, after building the Mirage Neuroptics, Ordis says "Now you have the helmet for a whole new class of Warframe.", not "...a whole new Warframe" which would be sufficient if there was only ever one Warframe of a given name, rather "...class of Warframe" establishing that Warframes are in some way categorised into classes.  It could still be argued that a singular Mirage is the first Warframe we get of whatever unnamed class she fits in (a class that includes a trickster like her but not Loki?) but I think it more likely that "Mirage" is the class.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Otherwise, how would you go about creating multiple Revenants? Would they all have to wait for a Gara to kill a specific Sentient, then guard its corpse for a set amount of time until it starts trying to use the "Warden" frame to revive itself, then the Warden seals itself with it so we can get another Revenant? That's convoluted beyond absurdity.

Or we could reverse engineer a method for our foundry to copy the resultant warframe without having to go through those exact steps, streamlining the process to make a copy rather than rebuilding the original.  This would fit with how we get Chroma in the New Strange (scanning without destroying him).

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

What we know for certain, is that by taking them as nothing more than visual accessories, DE are still making distinctively female (Wisp) animations instead of neutral animations (Zephyr), which means making the animations appropriate for a male/female variant is not a concern at all regardless of the core reason (Which I personally believe is due to them considering each frame as unique).

They are also still allowing use to pay to unlock idle animations for use on any warframe, so yeah, they likely did not concern themselves about whether or not Wisp's animations would fit a male Wisp in the same way that they did not concern themselves about whether or not it would fit any other male warframe current or future.  I can have a dainty floating Rhino with the "distinctively female (Wisp) animations" if I want.