Gender skins

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

13 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Imagine that no one has ever suggested they'd need to redo every skin and not just the default one.  The only people who say they'd need to are those who oppose the idea.  It's a strawman argument.

  Reveal hidden contents

But we aren't changing the original person, we're changing something we built in our foundry based off a blueprint of a copy of the original.  It's no more that person than their grandchild would be.

 

Every side of this is a straw man arguement. Us arguing about this is pointless. DE already decided no.

[HugintheCrow]

3 minutes ago, Raqiya said:

Alright, shut this thread down.

Why, because of a single transphobe trying to troll me?

[HugintheCrow]

Just now, -VS-Zany said:

Just to underline my argument - I saw you already agreed in this term before - we, as a player. As a operating person. Cannot, under NO giving circumstance, declare that the warframe is in "discomfort". When you are in a discomfort it is just a real life. Accept it. Done. Don't force something you think is the "correct one" or "good looking" state on something/someone.

Gender skins are wrong. In any way, regardless if you think there are 2 Gender, 26 Gender, or 230548 Genders.

You, I like you.

[VentiGlondi]

46 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Imagine them then having to make the opposite gender version of that Deluxe skin, then the normal skin, then all the tennogen skins. Now do that for all 40+ frames. It’s far too much work for what basically comes down to a toggle function, and unlike a Deluxe skin, they can’t make money off it.

I imagine those skins would be sold separately, the same way deluxe skins are.

Anyone who expects them to exist for every single warframe and come bundled with said warframe is delusional.

[JackHargreav]

Is it even worth discussing this topic?

I mean it always gonna be locked after a few days and disappears into the nether.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Why, because of a single transphobe trying to troll me?

No, because YOU are bringing social political issues into this thread. Also a gender switch option is never going to happen.

[-VS-Zany]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb HugintheCrow:

You, I like you.

Thank you 🙂 I like you too. You are not "stuborn", and insulted me directly - something you should expect nowadays.

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, because YOU are bringing social political issues into this thread. Also a gender switch option is never going to happen.

I don't actually want sex-switch skins. And transgender issues are not political, unless you're a transphobe trying to gain the votes of stupid people.

I'm not that, so, I'm not talking about politics. you're the one who mentioned them.

[Cubewano]

18 minutes ago, -VS-Zany said:

And we honor the original with not changing anything the person sacrificed for us. We honor them with accepting their idenity. Anything else would be disrespectful.
Cosmetics, idle animations, deluxe skins are like costumes. Nothing more. But the base, the person we honor, is still the same.

But the form we use wasn't theirs, it was one the Orokin forced onto them, one that resulted from their forms being warped against their will until they were starkly a hint of what they used to be. Forms so far warped than even when leading scientists cut into them they were perplexed as to what they were and how they worked i.e Alad V. If honoring the victims that results in these frames was the purpose, paying homage to the frames physique is the last way to do that, as it is something they never had a say in the begin with and it represents nothing of their person hood or pride. It's an assumption in itself to think the build of the frames and the victims match up to begin with, and that the Orokin didn't do swaps on their own out of aesthetic preference. 

Reality is the victims aren't caring in the least about how the tools of war made from them look like. (and if they did we have far larger problem spots already in game)

13 minutes ago, -VS-Zany said:

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But this does not change the fact, that the very base is still the same. Look at Umbra. Male identiy. Male Frame. Or the prime trailer. "He" "She". Clear and direct clues who that person is or was.

 

Spoiler

It does, their physique is not their own, and hasn't been since a very early stage that we have no access to. Creating trite linear connections because both are molded after the same sex doesn't honor or respect anything. Umbra looks male, so what? It's not male outside that realistically, it's not even human, and it certainly isn't who it was before the transformation. That was already handled by biological changes far beyond the level of just shifting from a masculine to feminine build. And deluxes do no different than either by creating new physiques, so if you can't accept body alterations then you can't accept deluxes, heck you shouldn't even be able to accept frames at all since they're a result of body augmentation well beyond either. 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Cubewano

[-VS-Zany]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Cubewano:

But the form we use wasn't theirs, it was one the Orokin forced onto them, one that resulted from their forms being warped against their will until they were starkly a hint of what they used to be.

Source? We only know that Umbra has been forced. The son was actually happy that this is happening, cause it is an honor. So tranformed into the first Warframe of a "series" is actually something, that maybe a lot of people wanted. We dont have enough sourced to assume other things.

[Katinka]

19 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

...and that the Orokin didn't do swaps on their own out of aesthetic preference.

We know that the Orokin swapped bodies from War Within and we know that the elder queen would have no issue with taking over the body of a player's Tenno even if that player is male so we don't actually know that the body of the original person to become the warframe was the original body (or sex) of that person.

[Cubewano]

26 minutes ago, -VS-Zany said:

Source? We only know that Umbra has been forced. The son was actually happy that this is happening, cause it is an honor. So tranformed into the first Warframe of a "series" is actually something, that maybe a lot of people wanted. We dont have enough sourced to assume other things.

I am skeptical to imagine the hosts of frames were given a sketch pad before their transformation and asked to design how they wanted to look as a bio mech, or the deluxes that we now have, or tennogen. As for Isaah being happy about his fathers transformation, there was nothing to imply he was even aware of what was happening to his father other than him being ill and potentially passing, and it is incredibly unlikely given the circumstances Ballas volunteered the information himself that it was anything else since the entire affair of Excalibur Umbra was effectively an explicit act of rebellion/betrayal by Ballas and had to be done in secrecy. (Isaah's father was spying on him for the Orokin, it'd be highly suspicious for him to then publicly be knowm to volunteer to become a frame under Ballas control with his mind effectively wiped) 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Cubewano

[Cubewano]

3 minutes ago, Katinka said:

We know that the Orokin swapped bodies from War Within and we know that the elder queen would have no issue with taking over the body of a player's Tenno even if that player is male so we don't actually know that the body of the original person to become the warframe was the original body (or sex) of that person.

Exactly my point, the lines are so blurry in this game in that regard. 

[-VS-Zany]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Katinka:

We know that the Orokin swapped bodies from War Within and we know that the elder queen would have no issue with taking over the body of a player's Tenno even if that player is male so we don't actually know that the body of the original person to become the warframe was the original body (or sex) of that person.

comparing a situation where you NEED to change your body to survive, and change a body out of .. idk.. interest(?) is something totaly different.

[-VS-Zany]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Cubewano:

-Snip-

Okay. So. I need to tell you somestuff.

1. As i said Deluxe is a theory, that this would be the original warframe if it would happen "in the wild" without the technology of the orokin.

2. The ORIGINAL and FIRST Warframe, that was designed by the Orokin, were the Prime Warframe, with Excal Prime as the very first.

Edit: There are also theories, that the original human was able to influence the transformation to an certain degree. example: Umbra. Stalker. Titania(iirc)

And since we don't have sources that indicate that the original sex/gender from that said human was diffrent... we cannot argue about that.
There was 1 Warframe that was originaly designed (iirc) as a transgender aka gender swap. Equinox. Day and nigght. Male and female. But apparently some ppl got triggered and they reworked it to just female.

Edited September 7, 2019 by -VS-Zany

[Katinka]

5 minutes ago, -VS-Zany said:

There was 1 Warframe that was originaly designed (iirc) as a transgender aka gender swap. Equinox. Day and nigght. Male and female. But apparently some ppl got triggered and they reworked it to just female.

Equinox was the winner of a 'design the next female warframe' competition.  As per the requirements of the competition, she was designed as a female frame, both parts always were.

7 minutes ago, -VS-Zany said:

There are also theories, that the original human was able to influence the transformation to an certain degree. example: Umbra. Stalker. Titania(iirc)

Nothing in Titania's story even mentions humans being used to make warframes, never mind the host having a say in their transformation.  If anything it goes against that idea as Silvana designed Titania, so specifically someone other than the host definitely played a part in deciding the new form.

[Cubewano]

Just now, -VS-Zany said:

Okay. So. I need to tell you somestuff.

1. As i said Deluxe is a theory, that this would be the original warframe if it would happen "in the wild" without the technology of the orokin.

2. The ORIGINAL and FIRST Warframe, that was designed by the Orokin, were the Prime Warframe, with Excal Prime as the very first.

And this we don't have sources that indicate that the original sex/gender from that said human was diffrent... we cannot argue about that.
There was 1 Warframe that was originaly was designed (iirc) as a transgender aka gender swap. Equinox. Day and nigght. Male and female. But apparently some ppl got triggered and they reworked it to just female.

1. It's a theory that doesn't fit, and isn't really supported by anything.

2. Excalibur or Excalibur Prime, it isn't made explicit which was first, but otherwise accurate yes. 

We don't have a source for either, so you are making just as much an assumption they line up. As for Equinox being genderswap, that was more an experiment they were toying with that they apparently decided ultimately not to go with for reasons never explained. It is odd they went with a concept from when they were toying with the gender swap concept, but I don't care to theorize beyond that as it'll do no good. 

All that said, I'm not sure any of this meets the points I've made. If you have an issue with the bending of a character physique to be something unlike them, then you have to take issue with the entirety of what frames are, because they go through far more augmentation than masculine to feminine to become just the base models we receive. Lore wise they fit the frames just fine however, as noted they go through larger physical augmentations by default, and at one point this was meant to be the standard which means there is probably more lore in reserve to back it as well. Outside lore, the practice of creating alternate frame models alone is not a new practice, and if done probably has been suggested to be fairly lucrative. Honor wise it makes no sense to be fine fully altering a physique one way and not another. 

[Im_a_Turtle]

It's ridiculous that every single of these damned thread devolves into gender identity arguments. And to think that almost a decade ago people would be arguing more about how much more unnecessary work would need to go into making gender skin cosmetics than these poo ponds of modern debate subjects.

I'd really like just for TennoGen to get full access to editing body meshes to a degree to allow for simple template gender cosmetics.

[DrakeRemorea]

Idk why a hunk of metal gotta have a gender tbh

[(PSN)Kamil-the-KamiKa]

16 hours ago, Raqiya said:

Alright, shut this thread down.

couldnt agree more but then again its only a matter of time until another thread is let loose.

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

Warframes are but puppets.  Gender is merely a matter of aesthetic for them.

Their Operators consider the matter no more than selecting the proper tool for a task.

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Drake_Remorea said:

Idk why a hunk of metal gotta have a gender tbh

I'm a long-time Transformers guy.  The popular consensus in the nerds newsgroups of the day was that gender for a Transformer was purely aesthetic.  The bulk of masculine-presenting Transformers was purely a matter of default and not much else.  Optimus Prime wasn't so much manly as he was a gruff, neutrally masculine build.  There's also a layer of learned behavior.  There are few feminine-presenting Transformers because the aesthetic or utility of gender was unimportant or they had been poorly exposed to representations of gender.

I've typed all of this thinking it was relevant for some reason, but I've had a few drinks and it's late and I've lost myself.  But yeah, it uh ... it shouldn't matter if the Warframe you dig is a buckaroo or a ladybuck.  It doesn't matter to Operators.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2019-09-07 at 7:43 AM, rastaban75 said:

Then, there's the problem with the names of several Warframes. Sure, female Frost and male Ember would make sense. But female Oberon? Male Titania? Female Atlas? Male Banshee? Male Valkyr? Female Loki? Many frames are direct references to characters or figures from the real world, and these have a specific genders. Or you have names like Nidus (-us alludes to male names in Latin) or Nekros (-os alludes to male names in Greek) etc. that also pose problems. Sure, you can have alternate names for each frame along with the alternate "gendered" skin, but this would pose yet another problem. Or you could stick to the current names but that would be silly imo.

Very good points. The only case of those you mention where it really wouldnt matter is Loki, since he has even gone to the extent of being a mare and giving birth to a horse in the myths. However, for someone like Atlas and Valkyr (although only using parts of the name for Valkyries) it simply wouldnt fit with a gender swap. In those cases it would be better with a Jord, Hlodynn or maybe Gaia for a female version of Atlas with an earthly theme and Einherjer or Berserker for a male Valkyr with a similar theme.

Banshee I'm still not sure of. Cant there be male Banshees? Or those are called something else?

[ZelUrk]

You can't change gender.

[Katinka]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Banshee I'm still not sure of. Cant there be male Banshees? Or those are called something else?

Etymologically, Banshee comes from the old celtic for 'fairy woman' or 'woman of the fairy mound', ban deriving from the Irish for woman, bean.  A quick search suggested there could be male banshees but the source also referred to them as 'ban-he' which makes me think it's utter rubbish made up for a TV show at some time since they changed the wrong part of the word.  Most sources just mentioned them being women, crying out in mourning.  There's no doubt some other death omen spirit that could provide a name though.