Warframe 2. Perhaps?

[Nichivo]

Warframe 2? How about getting Warframe out of Beta first.

[844448]

2 hours ago, -vnn said:

I think majority of you have misunderstood what I'm saying. It might be because i wasn't bring too clear about it. I'm not suggesting that we completely throw out all our progress. It is only for WF2 (since most of you are calling it this). You can still access all of your gear when you play the current star chart. It's only when you play the subsequent star chart that you're starting fresh. You can hunt eidolon during the night cycle with your full gear and then hope onto WF2 during the day cycle if you want to, it's the next star chart. DE has never dictate (some of) the order of quest you play. It's instance based after all and not an epic RPG. It is not a game sequel but a continuation of story telling with added game mechanics. This is the reason why I put out a disclaimer out at the beginning because I don't know if this could be possible.

 

19 minutes ago, -vnn said:

You're right that there are flaws in my suggestion. I haven't thought through it all and it isn't job to do that. I merely pointing out the fact that new content  as of now is pointless because from a player's perspective there is no need for them. Empyrean might change that, no one knows for sure, not even DE. 

 

The only way for us to keep our progress and still have content is to either play another game and come back for a week max whenever there's an update, which at this point we might as well just delete WF tbh, or to have DE create challenging final bosses/stages that constantly require the use of our brain power and with unpredictable elements, somewhere along the lines of Dark Souls or Monster Hunter: World. And at this stage, the latter is highly unlikely because DE will cater to the desires of player that want to be overpowered but without first earning it. Unless Empyrean changes that. 

 

So my underlying point is that for us who have some hours on the game, new content is not content anymore but merely an addition we do not need (what is Gauss good for when we have other frames/gear that outperforms him in all he can do? Other than he is the second coming of Jesus running on water?) and we need something that will change that. 

Here's the thing, OP, why do you want challenge in the first place when you're a godlike creature wiping out existence left and right? At worst something "challenging" that needs brainpower and unpredictable elements is dismissed as annoying, too hard or outright trash by many

Then, there's this statement from you. Why challenge when there are frames/gear that outperform others? People would just find the one that outperforms everything and it becomes the meta

You want challenge? Try fighting profit taker orb without relying on chroma and rivened weapons, if your response isn't "why should I do that if chroma can do it better?"

[George_PPS]

The current Warframe works. If it works, it is good. All it needs are continuous minor and major updates and improvement in all areas of the game for all levels of players. I like it, almost all players who replied like it. I guess you need to try new things and achieve new objectives in game. Have you done them all? It’s endless. 

[LarryYourWaiter]

On 2019-09-11 at 5:49 PM, -vnn said:

Before I start, I would like to put a disclaimer out that I am in no way a developer or understand how a game is built. Nor am I a story/quest writer. And if this suggestion had been made in the past, I apologize for presenting the same idea once again.

 

Now, with the recent hoo-hah about partners leaving and the on-going rant of content draught, and the defense of the content draught comparing other games to Warframe as to what content is, I personally feel that it is not that Warframe is lacking content, but the model of how Warframe is presented that is lacking. I hope we can agree that Warframe is a grindy game, it was designed to be grindy, and it should be grindy. Let's ignore the rewards part for the entire conversation. Warframe is meant to be a grind. Therefore, we can learn from one of the most grindy, repetitive game there is out there, which people are using to defend content draught, Pokemon. It is undoubtedly one of the highest-grossing, longest-running game franchise in existence. 

Some have used it to counter the lack of content in Warframe and they are not wrong. DE coming up with new warframes and weapon and the like are content. Props to them for coming up with new ideas for weapons and warframes and game modes. But I think that there is a flaw with the comparison of Pokemon to Warframe: how these content are being presented, the model.

How can Pokemon, a game that has remained the same ever since the first generation came out still sell and still be popular? Literally, every game of the subsequent generation is the same as the previous one. You go catch Pokemon, beat gym leaders, and become the Pokemon League champion. That's all there is to it. I might be wrong and might have overlooked a few things, but I think that it is the way the content are being presented by the Pokemon franchise:

1. You start from scratch every time.
2. You get new Pokemon (maybe some previous ones carried over).
3. You get a new storyline (sort of). Albeit with the same goal.

If we were to use how new content is being presented to us in Warframe and apply it to the Pokemon games, it would be a train wreck. 

We will still be playing Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow, after eight generations of Pokemon (content) and we're still playing the same storyline, as Red (protaganist). It is no wonder we feel that there is no reward with new content. Because our first generation Pokemon from Red/Blue/Yellow has reached Lv100 and we have a fully optimized team that could take on whatever the game throws at us. Catching new Pokemon becomes a chore and only for the sake of completing the Pokedex. They are no longer content in our eyes, but merely more grind. Having more generations of Pokemon (content) no longer feels rewarding. A new set of gym leaders to beat is going to be another same old same old thing again after a while because we can just wipe them out with our fully optimized team and the same goes for the new Pokemon League, even if they require different ways to beat (new game modes).

So what is the difference between Pokemon and Warframe? It is the model in which new content and games modes are presented. What if we take the model from the Pokemon franchise and apply it to Warframe.

Perhaps Warframe 2 is a little bit too much to ask for and I doubt veterans would want to start a new game that they have mastered. My suggestion here is galaxies. Warframe: Milky Way (the current Warframe) (first generation Pokemon) officially ends with The War Within. Plains of Eidolon is the endgame, the final hurdle. Revenant is the last obtainable warframe. Anything after that will be available in the next galaxy, Andromeda (second generation).

Now here's what's different. Somehow by some series of events, we end up in Andromeda. We start Andromeda by choosing one of three new warframes and a set of new weapons. We have a whole new star chart to clear, new warframes and weapons to farm. But we are not able to access our previously own warframes and weapons. Let's leave the minor details like essential mods aside for now. It could be solved with some storyline allowing us to obtain them somehow. All warframes and weapons after Revenant are only available in Andromeda. Fortuna is only available in Andromeda. Disruption is only available in Andromeda. There are only so many warframes and weapons in that galaxy. And when the storyline for Andromeda ends, it connects back to Milky Way and allows us full access to all our gear once again. What if we  find out that the Tenno is not a mistake? Something we wouldn't have found out if we didn't end up in Andromeda? What if Empyrean is a technology of a different colony of Tenno that made it to Andromeda? It opens up possibilities, freshness, a sense of wonder.

What this does is it makes us actually feel like we are playing new content. Almost everything is new to us. New planets to explore. New enemies. New game modes that are only available in that galaxy. New warframes and weapons to obtain that are a part of the story that is connected to that particular galaxy. Churning out more warframes and weapons is basically redundant right now because we are not experiencing a sense of new-ness. It's the same old same old.

I understand that Warframe was never meant to be an epic RPG. But the current story is just a bundle of mess. Who even is the Lotus? The Second Dream is one of the best gaming experience anyone can have. I remember reading comments of veterans back then of how emotional they were, how it changed their view of the game, how it changes everything. I remember myself going, "Wtf? You've got to be kidding me!" It got me hooked on Warframe for the next 1000 or so hours. But now I don't even now what's going on.

 

With this model I'm suggesting, new players will not feel overwhelmed because they can choose to start in Andromeda. They can play as a Tenno in the new colony and once they finish the star chart they meet a Tenno from Milky Way that leads them there which they will start with starter frames again. They don't need to play Milky Way if they don't want to. Of course, there are disconnection that you would've thought of between the two galaxies (storyline, quests, etc.), but a well-written story would connect these missing pieces and we leave that to DE. And for the veterans, it's like a new game again. And if they like, they can go back go to Andromeda with the frames from Milky Way and optimize the gameplay there, or use equipment from Andromeda in Milky Way. Weapons types or gimmicks can also be tweaked for the specific galaxy. Maybe a new weapon element or two. 

 

I have not farmed every frame or weapons available and to be honest, I don't feel like it. Saryn Prime is out now, I don't have it nor do I have Saryn but I don't feel like farming it. Because I don't need it. Yeah, it's meta for ESO and clearing maps quickly, but I don't need it. I can use other frames. I'm bored of running the same missions again and again and cracking relics again and again. There is no incentive to do it. But if it's a new galaxy, a new setting where I don't have the optimized frames I now have and Saryn Prime is a new frame (for example), I would have the motivation to farm for it. Because I have limited frames and need to get all I can for optimization.

 

I understand that there are flaws and missing joints in the model I suggest but my main point is that a change of how new content is presented would potentially be the answer to the balance between beginner/casual player content and veteran/endgame content. This requires a great amount of resources. From story writing to coding a new galaxy. I leave it up to DE to consider this model. I hope this would help point DE in the right direction for the game. It's one thing for a game to be great, it's another thing for a game to remain great. 

So many words.  What do they all say?  No one will ever know...

[-vnn]

2 hours ago, 844448 said:

 

Here's the thing, OP, why do you want challenge in the first place when you're a godlike creature wiping out existence left and right? At worst something "challenging" that needs brainpower and unpredictable elements is dismissed as annoying, too hard or outright trash by many

Then, there's this statement from you. Why challenge when there are frames/gear that outperform others? People would just find the one that outperforms everything and it becomes the meta

You want challenge? Try fighting profit taker orb without relying on chroma and rivened weapons, if your response isn't "why should I do that if chroma can do it better?"

If people think that they are annoying or trash, that's because of bad design, bad implementation, or they just want things to be handed to them on a silver plater.

You do realize that meta doesn't mean there cannot be any challenge, right? It just means that it is the most efficient way of doing things. It does not guarantee you a win and it shouldn't. 

And yes I have done PT with other frames other than chroma without riven mods. I actually finished the mission the first time without chroma, rivens, and meta mods on archgun. And I still don't have the meta mods for archgun. Let's be clear here, nothing in warframe right now is challenging. If it wasn't before the existence of rivens, it won't be after either. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by -vnn

[844448]

1 hour ago, -vnn said:

If people think that they are annoying or trash, that's because of bad design, bad implementation, or they just want things to be handed to them on a silver plater.

You do realize that meta doesn't mean there cannot be any challenge, right? It just means that it is the most efficient way of doing things. It does not guarantee you a win and it shouldn't. 

And yes I have done PT with other frames other than chroma without riven mods. I actually finished the mission the first time without chroma, rivens, and meta mods on archgun. And I still don't have the meta mods for archgun. Let's be clear here, nothing in warframe right now is challenging. If it wasn't before the existence of rivens, it won't be after either. 

How many people that actually try before complaining? Just a slightly faster enemy got massive complaints

And why bother using others when meta exists? This is the main problem with games with challenge, people always chase the meta

Did you do it solo or in a team that happens to have chroma in it?

[-vnn]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

How many people that actually try before complaining? Just a slightly faster enemy got massive complaints

And why bother using others when meta exists? This is the main problem with games with challenge, people always chase the meta

Did you do it solo or in a team that happens to have chroma in it?

Yes, that is exactly the player base of WF right now. They just want to be one punch man. The game will continue to be this way unless something is done. But we know that it will not so DE will have to figure out a way to cater to the player base that wants something else. 

I think you still don't get the point. I'm suggesting for challenge despite the meta. We can have chroma as meta for PT only because of PT total health but where are the elements/mechanics which require the player to do something else despite already using chroma? Something that challenges the player rather than the frame. 

I have been running solo since about 100+ hours into the game. Can't recall exactly when but I finished second dream at about 180 hours solo. I only play with a squad for tricap or back when NW forced us to. The only thing in WF right now that requires a squad is eidolons, and that is only for efficiency sake. 2x3 can be done without energy pads. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by -vnn

[orangescythe]

30 minutes ago, -vnn said:

Yes, that is exactly the player base of WF right now. They just want to be one punch man. The game will continue to be this way unless something is done. But we know that it will not so DE will have to figure out a way to cater to the player base that wants something else. 

I think you still don't get the point. I'm suggesting for challenge despite the meta. We can have chroma as meta for PT but where are the elements/mechanics which require the player to do something else despite already using chroma? Something that challenges the player rather than the frame. 

I have been running solo since about 100+ hours into the game. Can't recall exactly when but I finished second dream at about 180 hours solo. I only play with a squad for tricap or back when NW forced us to. The only thing in WF right now that requires a squad is eidolons, and that is only for efficiency sake. 2x3 can be done without energy pads. 

You haven't expanded on why any of those things are bad.

[-vnn]

9 minutes ago, orangescythe1990 said:

You haven't expanded on why any of those things are bad.

Watch one punch man and you'll realize why. It's not bad per se, it's more that it's not sustainable. 

If more enemy ehp is difficulty, then school exams should just increase the number of questions on a paper. 

Running solo isn't bad. I love it. But if a mission can be completed solo without much trouble, what's the point of having a squad? Just categorize WF as a single player game with the option of playing with friends. But that still doesn't solve the issue of difficulty/challenge. 

[orangescythe]

4 minutes ago, -vnn said:

Watch one punch man and you'll realize why. It's not bad per se, it's more that it's not sustainable. 

If more enemy ehp is difficulty, then school exams should just increase the number of questions on a paper. 

Running solo isn't bad. I love it. But if a mission can be completed solo without much trouble, what's the point of having a squad? Just categorize WF as a single player game with the option of playing with friends. But that still doesn't solve the issue of difficulty/challenge. 

Why is it not sustainable. Also why are you comparing a game to school exams.

[GrandLompus]

What appeals to me in Warframe is the actual grind and trying to collect it all, the storyline / quests, and the diversity of content to explore.  But since I'm almost turning MR27 (I only need 999 XP and Gauss is now in the oven), I suspect that the "content drought" will hit me soon too.  I can also start chasing collecting all mods; that should keep me busy quite some hours as well.  Or cosmetics, though since most are paid-for I don't feel too much in "collect them all" there.

During all this I still rely mostly on Ivara and Valkyr Prime though, with some Nekros and Hydroid for farming.  And I'm still on Broken War, Lex Prime and Ignis Wraith or Amprex, with the occasional Rubico Prime or Lanka (though I'm using Pyranha Prime more often too lately).  Not exactly the meta I guess (though I don't give a f^&k what the meta is; not following it, just having fun mostly solo).  I often tried out other gear on random solo missions, and while it is fun to rediscover nice gems here and there, they're not lasting, and I end up with the same old when I need to do some hard farming.  I think DE already tried to address this with Arbitrations; one single warframe + weapon gets a boost, to incentivize players using more types of content again.  I wonder though how much it helps, since the meta is still going to overpower the boosted gear mostly anyway.

So I think this situation won't improve at all for any new item DE can churn out.  And while the bigger quests are nice, I think they'll take too much development time to focus on as the main source of extra content.  That (for me) leaves only room for improvement in the diversity part.

Warframe 2 is a bit of an (over)stretch I think, though I see what you meant.  So no disconnected sequel, but just a separation of content in the same game, just a bit like what operator mode does; it has it's own set of weapons and it's own style of game play, effectively starting you over from scratch once you unlock the operator.  That would mean more diversity, but disconnected diversity at that.

I think it would actually help more if existing content is going to be more intertwined than it is now, not disconnected.  There's a ton of diversity in the game, but lots of it is still disconnected.  While e.g. railjack and the open world maps drag the archwing into the main experience, it in turn does nothing for archwing missions.  And animal preservation is a nice distraction, but it is totally disconnected from regular gameplay as well (apart from collecting floofs, in the spirit of "collect them all").

However, I can't come up with new interlinks between existing content to make old content shine again, and I assume DE would have the same problem, since they would have done so already otherwise (I suppose it's easier to tweak old content than to introduce new).

[-vnn]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that new content as it is now doesn't feel like content.

Edited September 17, 2019 by -vnn
Error on chrome part placing the reply as a quoted text

[orangescythe]

13 minutes ago, -vnn said:

 

Would you mind posting the context or is that the absolute best you can come up with.

[-vnn]

On 2019-09-14 at 10:08 AM, orangescythe1990 said:

Would you mind posting the context or is that the absolute best you can come up with.

Sorry about the misquote. It was an error on chrome that somehow put my reply as a quoted text

[nslay]

On 2019-09-13 at 6:07 AM, -vnn said:

Watch one punch man and you'll realize why. It's not bad per se, it's more that it's not sustainable. 

If more enemy ehp is difficulty, then school exams should just increase the number of questions on a paper. 

Running solo isn't bad. I love it. But if a mission can be completed solo without much trouble, what's the point of having a squad? Just categorize WF as a single player game with the option of playing with friends. But that still doesn't solve the issue of difficulty/challenge. 

I think DE should spend some time to improve the game AI. It would be the single least intrusive change that everyone would immediately notice and enjoy immensely. Heck, AI is the hype right now. They could make a Kaggle competition to improve Warframe enemy unit AI with the requirement that it run on in real time on a toaster of a computer! Collect thousands of examples of gameplay data and dump it on a website for training the AI algorithms and, voila, Kaggle competition.

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

I think DE should spend some time to improve the game AI.

No point, as long as the popular frames continue to have an AI off switch.

[Aldain]

On 2019-09-12 at 11:18 PM, Nichivo said:

Warframe 2? How about getting Warframe out of Beta first.

What if when it does get out of beta it launches as Warframe 2?

That would be a plot-twist.

[Nichivo]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

What if when it does get out of beta it launches as Warframe 2?

That would be a plot-twist.

I fully expect it to launch as,  "Dark Sector Ten 0 Reborn" 

[Vlada91]

Yes its coming when my kids get my age,so its in 2047 for shore 😁👌