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At What Part of The Game Do You Think The Majority of NEW Players Quit The Game?

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From what I've seen by staring in region chat, most new players are completely lost after finishing Vor's Prize. They finish that "tutorial" and ask what they should do afterward.

Imo the game should make clearer that your long-term goal as a beginner is the Second Dream quest, and thus they have to aim for Jupiter then Uranus ASAP.

 

A nice idea I had would be to show on the starchart where frames drops. For example a Rhino icon on both Venus and the boss node could be nice. Player would immediately know where Rhino, Mag, Excalibur, Trinity etc. drops and make that one of their goal. Going further, you could even add Gauss icon on Kelpie, Sedna, or Harrow System on Kuva Fortress Spy, etc... 

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7 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Actually, I find it's the kids under 25 that have the hardest time with it. Anyone who grew up playing NES, Genesis, N64, SNES, N64, etc. learned how to play games by just playing them. Trial and error, phone a friend, experiment with wacky ideas, and so on. It wasn't until about the N64 (and later into its life) that using the internet as a gaming resource really began to pick up steam--that was back in the days of Nintendo Power, the early days of sites like Cheat Code Central, IGN (before it was just corrupt access "journalism"), GameSpot, GameFAQs (before it was bought by GameSpot)... 

While a fair assertion, it should be noted that Warframe has significantly more (occasionally needlessly) complex layers than your average game from the N64/PSX or before eras, most of the time games back then were more limited in their design, so the complexity, even more complex titles like older RPGs, were still more user friendly and explained more on average.

I mean Super Mario 64 doesn't need that much explanation because it (along with a single instruction manual) shows the players methods to utilize the abilities present in the game, Warframe barely explains how to move to new players and the interactions of movement are mostly either hidden in the codex or not explained at all.

The issue Warframe has when compared to those older games in terms of explaining things is that it doesn't do anything to actually guide the player to the conclusions that yield success, which can be chalked up to the sheer amount of different approaches that are available, no system could be in place to account for all of them. Players wind up confused due to the lack of a structured start that eases them into it, which even older games had in some ways (there are examples like Ghosts n' Goblins that just bust the player's balls from second one though).

I don't think there is one unified action that DE could take to improve the new player experience, but I feel like a bit more (as much as people hate this word) railroading would help to prevent players from spilling out into things that are excessively confusing (looking at you PoE) or can be missed entirely (good modding practices/weapon blueprints).

Edited by Aldain

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I have to disagree that complexity alone is responsible for that difference. Partially because older games taught you how to play through design and expected you to try all the buttons to learn the controls. The other part is because you can compartmentalize every system in Warframe into something that isn't hard to understand. I think it's more that players are too lazy/entitled to believe they should have to go look for their own answers these days, because there isn't a question that a newbie could reasonably ask that the answer hasn't been provided hundreds of times.

 

The one thing DE could do to resolve a lot of the "Vor's Prize, now what?" syndrome is to have the Lotus inbox you some tutorial directions in the form of:

-Explain what MR is and how it is raised, why it's important, and the cheap/easy methods to get more early (MK1 weapons, for example).

-Explain how the Star Chart works and how to progress in it, including Junctions.

-Explain in more depth how mods work, polarities, and the importance of increasing mod rank. Maybe even provide about 200 Endo to get them started and some pointers on how to get more.

That's it. Most of these are self-explanatory enough that just these instructions would give enough direction for players to branch out and explore to progress their game. The game itself wouldn't really need anything changed on this front.

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In many ways I think one issue is that the game is maybe a bit TOO open with how much stuff there is to do. You open up your map and there's earth with it's dozen nodes. And then you zoom out to find the other places. Then you go into the codex or market and go through the INSANE list of available weapons to get and you just go "What the heeeeelll?" In MMO's that have hundreds of weapons to get, you don't know about them unless you research them through wikis or actually get them, here it's easily at your fingertip. 

I think Steve himself touched on this somewhere, maybe in the noClip documentary, where basically players see all the things they can (and thus feel they have to) do, and then go over in their head "Do I have time for this?" and come to the realization that maybe they are not willing to put in the time and so they stop. New players are just given so much information that the immediately relevant one info like how mods work is suddenly overshadowed by the massive library of mods. 

Do they need to see weapons in the market and Codex that have an MR requirement of 8? Do they need to see planets beyond the inner terrestrials? (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars) Do they need to see quests in their codex that won't be available to them until they have sunk at least 30-40 hours into the game? 

The answer to all those questions is "No." It's a rather ironic twist where we all want stuff to be transparent and have as much information as possible to make the right decisions, but truth is that "too much information" IS a valid problem because you lose the important bits in that noise. With some things that are important later, are given to you now and when the time arrives where you DO need it, the game goes "But I already told you." and you have to El Goog it. 

So honestly, the best thing DE should do with regards to new players is maybe curate and hide information that is not immediately necessary to them when they start off. Only show them equipment that is realistically available for use within the next few MR's both in the shop and Codex, but still be available through the search function. If you already know the name, then no point hiding that piece of kit. In the solar map, maybe have a sort of "Fog of War" dust cloud that obscures the next planet over and doesn't let you zoom out beyond what you have already uncovered. This could narrow the play field to components that feel much more manageable and also adds in a sense of discovery. You work your way through a planet and then suddenly a Junction node opens and poof! Holy cow, a new planet! And with all these things cut down to more bite-size bits, the important information that gets trickled in like how to the base mechanics work, might not have to compete so much for player attention. 

Edited by Lakais
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I couldn't disagree more. Hiding stuff from players won't solve the issues, and in the case of the Star Chart specifically, being able to look ahead at the junctions to see their requirements is actually useful for planning your progress through them.

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The Junctions could use more emphasis on the star chart (unless Empyrean will be changing this), and important Story Quests need to be prominent "GET TO THIS POINT" things that motivate people to reach them for more than the story (the blueprints are nice rewards... but a Warframe slot, Weapon slots, early on  in the game, are things that will drive newbies to go for them, and then get drawn into the story as a side effect.

The Arsenal could use some trimming down, at least compartmentalizing... not every weapon thrown into one big list. Like, "These are weapons that you "could use" right now, if you had the credits and components." And this other option that lets you look ahead, with weapons sectioned off into MR requirements. Some people just can't wrap their heads around the numbers and stats of weapons to truly compare them (like me), so a way to test them in a test environment would be welcome. Many weapons have unique characteristics that differentiate them more than just by numbers. (Additionally, what "type" of weapon they are, would be nice, written SOMEWHERE... so you know what mods they can use before you go to the modding section and see them filtered out for you. I don't think I've ever seen this on any stat page for any weapon... and it boggles my mind, in a confusion sort of way, that says, "go to the wiki for the real stats of this thing, the UI's not gonna tell you in game, you crazy?")

Warframes need their own Arsenal UI. As someone mentioned, a little warframe icon next to boss nodes would be useful, but the warframe arsenal tab should have that info too. I'd go so far as to section off "Quest" frames from the rest, even linking them directly to the quest codex entry. A "try me" type of interface would be really cool too, to see if they'd enjoy using a frame, and if it's worth it to them to get it (a test environment with a few enemies and objects to help showcase the frame and extoll their positives... to really sell players on getting the frame, rather than just a captura scene.) With the plat-purchase option made known, but not front and center, people could see the blueprint costs, where you find them, and what ingredients are needed... and then decide if they want to push to get it on their own, or skip it with plat.

 

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2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I couldn't disagree more. Hiding stuff from players won't solve the issues, and in the case of the Star Chart specifically, being able to look ahead at the junctions to see their requirements is actually useful for planning your progress through them.

But how would you address the issue of information noise? How do you parse all this relevant information for parts that are relevant NOW? I'm not saying that the "Fog of War" should be oppressive, but just enough to compartmentalize to sections that are relevant now and shortly after.

In practice, what is a more likely scenario for a player who just started off and hasn't even cleared the Venus junction: that they will holistically observe all the nodes, missions and requirements, cross-referencing wikis for the optimal methodology of going through all of the solar map nodes and the available arsenal for MR. Or will they consult general chat for some honorable soul to extort for information, look at the map and the arsenal and either go "Right, lets go alphabetically with the store weapons and just beeline to the junctions" or "What... where the hell am I supposed to go? Junctions? What are junctions? There are going to be TESTS!?" 

I can't think of ANY RPG game in recent history where the world map and in-game codex/encyclopedia (if available) was fully kitted out at the start of the game. None. In all the ones I have played, the map opens up gradually as you progress with information in the codex being provided as it is come across. Some games do it better then others, but the basic results are the same: Players are given an incentive to explore and push further because they got A Shiny to chase (codex completion) and they are not dumped with information that is not relevant to their current stage of play. Hell! You can draw a parallel with single-player story games as the progression of the game is not laid out at the very start. Player is not told that the game has X chapters or whatever with Y stages in a chapter with details as to what kind of encounters they can expect. You can look it up in online player sources, but in-game, that information is not given because it is either not necessary, or directly detrimental to the experience. As players are less likely to be in the moment and more motivated by a clearly visible "finish line". 

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Look, Lakais, I agree with you to a point on the issue existing, but I just don't agree with your proposed solution. I mentioned a few pages earlier than I started a fresh account to see how exaggerated some of the claims around new players are, and the only knowledge I used that wasn't obvious to a new player is that I have 3 goals once I finished Vor's Price:

-Collect endo to rank up mods (along with knowing that Vitality, Hornet Strike, Serration, and other basic mods are actually important).

-Begin clearing the star chart. I'm not sure why this needs a tutorial since it's about the only thing there is to do for a new player. I suppose you could include "Don't get too tied down in Cetus/Fortuna yet" as a sub point here, but I think the difficulty curve of those places is enough to push people away from them in the early game.

-Begin raising MR asap.

Honestly, the information overload is not even as problematic as you make it sound since the vast majority of weapons/frames in the market are very clearly labeled as locked by MR. If anything, I think some sorting options in the market would go a long way:

-Sort by credits cost

-Sort by MR progress (make it easier to find stuff you haven't leveled yet)

-Sort by pre-built first, craftable last

-Sort by weapon type (that works)

-Sort by most commonly purchased (because I actually buy potatoes and forma, not that I expect everyone to)

These would be more helpful, imo, than just hiding them from the player, and isn't likely to irritate vets who create new accounts for one reason or another (maybe they are changing platform--I've done that before). I know there's a balance between pleasing the people who have always stuck with the game and paid to support it and people who are just trying it out with a high risk of abandoning it out of ignorance or false frustration... but I think it's important to try to approach that balance thoughtfully instead of hard skewing to one side.

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The long and tedious star charts that you need to clear so you could get to the resources you need to progress your builds. 
When I started playing that was the thing that almost made me quit, the only reason I didn’t was because I was on an annual leave for a month and had absolutely nothing to do.

DE need to reduce the number of nods and re arrange the resources drops. 

Also thanks you to the awesome group of randoms  who taxi me to higher level missions when I was MR 2 to gather resources, those 40 minutes survival and 20 waves defense in the void and Sedna were a great boost, without me even asking.

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)SCiFiOne said:

The long and tedious star charts that you need to clear so you could get to the resources you need to progress your builds.

You only need them for certain things, but those aren't "necessary" to progress enough to get to those places on your own. The main thing you actually get bottle-necked by is enough credits/endo to raise your mods to sufficient level that you can take on the mid-tier plants by the time you get there (Ceres, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus).

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1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

You only need them for certain things, but those aren't "necessary" to progress enough to get to those places on your own. The main thing you actually get bottle-necked by is enough credits/endo to raise your mods to sufficient level that you can take on the mid-tier plants by the time you get there (Ceres, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus).

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)SCiFiOne said:

The long and tedious star charts that you need to clear so you could get to the resources you need to progress your builds. 
When I started playing that was the thing that almost made me quit, the only reason I didn’t was because I was on an annual leave for a month and had absolutely nothing to do.

DE need to reduce the number of nods and re arrange the resources drops. 

Also thanks you to the awesome group of randoms  who taxi me to higher level missions when I was MR 2 to gather resources, those 40 minutes survival and 20 waves defense in the void and Sedna were a great boost, without me even asking.

 

Rhino. It is supposed to be early player frame, unlocked at Venus Boss.

 

Let's look at what is needed.

Neuroptics

150 Alloy Plate, easily gainable from Venus, no problem.

1 Morphic, a bit rare on Mercury but doable.

150 Polymer Bundle, drops from Venus and Mercry, not much of problem.

500 Rubedo, drops from Earth, not much of problem.

Chasis

1 Morphic, a bit rare on Mercury but doable.

1000 Ferrite, drops from Mercury and Earth. Might take time for a newb but it's quite common.

300 Rubedo, drops from Earth, not much of problem.

 

So far ezpz, but the problem starts from here.

System

1 Morphic, a bit rare on Mercury but doable.

1 Control Module, which drops like candy from Void, but to get there new players need to go through Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Phobos THEN Void. Which is ridiculous

600 Plastid. Earliest is Saturn. Without help form veteran, it can be weeks of playing until they get some.

500 Salvage, it starts dropping from Mars, but Venus Junction should give it so actually not problem, this one.

 

Finally Gallium for actually building it entirely, which starts dropping from Mars.

 

I think they need to fix the building requirements on Rhino, at least. So new players can actually build it without asking it help or be frustrated and quit.

 

 

Edit: Actually Control Module, Plastid and Gallium are all possible early Bounty rewards so they did try fixing it... But like I said and some others said, Open World is very newbie-unfriendly so not sure if it was the best way to handle it.

Edited by OwlOfJune
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On the switch they quit once they get a taste of the trading on there and realize they can get a lot more for a lot less on other consoles.  It's 2019 almost everyone has a PC or laptop in there house. When the PC transfers stop scamming everyone maybe more people will stay.

Nintendo has been geared towards kids for over 30 years, and kids can not afford what traders are selling especially the vaulted items.

PC transfers are to blame for that. They have been nothing but vultures since day 1.  

Pretty sad when Ash Prime Systems alone won't sell for less than 900p, or Vauban Prime for 1200p.  There is no reason for people to keep playing on the switch if its better for them to play the game elsewhere.  

DE could do more to get vaulted items into circulation on the switch, especially the items that have never been available there yet.  You could put vaulted relics up for sale in the market at least for a few months.  People would rather give their plat  to DE than to a bunch of scammers from the PC.

Enough is enough already and anyone who says its all supply and demand can go back to the PC and stay there.  You sh*t won't float on any other console warframe is played on so why should it on the switch?

I've been in clans on the switch where I asked to help the clan founders farm Ash and Vauban primes and other vaulted frames and weapons then go to the market and try and raise their prices up as high as possible.  They are sitting on hundreds of the relics and it's all about greed.  Obviously I declined and left those clans.  Warframe on the switch is bad enough for the lack of people on it and those people are just making it worse by driving more people away.

The only positive thing on the switch trading right now is that people are indeed getting fed up with the PC users and calling them out as SCAMMERS in trade chat.

They started this mess on day 1 of switch release.  IF they actually gave a sh*t about Switch Warframe instead of greed then they can start to  clean it up and stop looking for those desperate suckers to try and f*ck over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, OwlOfJune said:

600 Plastid. Earliest is Saturn.

Phobos.

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2 hours ago, OwlOfJune said:

Let's look at what is needed.

Neuroptics

150 Alloy Plate, easily gainable from Venus, no problem. Check

1 Morphic, a bit rare on Mercury but doable. Not rare at all. You easily get more of these than you need before you get to the junction for the next planet.

150 Polymer Bundle, drops from Venus and Mercry, not much of problem. Check

500 Rubedo, drops from Earth, not much of problem. Check

Chasis

1 Morphic, a bit rare on Mercury but doable. Again, not really rare. Just play through to the junction.

1000 Ferrite, drops from Mercury and Earth. Might take time for a newb but it's quite common. Check

300 Rubedo, drops from Earth, not much of problem. Check

 

So far ezpz, but the problem starts from here.

System

1 Morphic, a bit rare on Mercury but doable. Same as Neuroptics.

1 Control Module, which drops like candy from Void, but to get there new players need to go through Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Phobos THEN Void. Which is ridiculous Drops frequently from Ceres, which is easy to get to as you clear through the chart.

600 Plastid. Earliest is Saturn. Without help form veteran, it can be weeks of playing until they get some. Drops on Phobos, which you need before you ever get to Jupiter.

500 Salvage, it starts dropping from Mars, but Venus Junction should give it so actually not problem, this one. Check.

Honestly, if you just follow the star chart, you get everything you need. The only resource that's hard to get early is Neural Sensors, because they don't start dropping until Jupiter. However, you don't *need* anything that requires them before that point anyway. All of the starting frames are more than capable of getting through to at least Neptune/Pluto/Eris before your build starts to actually matter if you just have a rank 6 Vitality and Redirection--again, easy to do.

Your post is a typical example of over-exaggerating the claims of Warframe's early game mostly on the basis of ignorance rather than fact. Even if you want to say "I didn't know about X," there's a ton of information available in text form as well as in video form. Ignorance isn't entirely the fault of the game. The game is responsible for 10-15% of it. The rest is on the player.

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21 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Your post is a typical example of over-exaggerating the claims of Warframe's early game mostly on the basis of ignorance rather than fact. Even if you want to say "I didn't know about X," there's a ton of information available in text form as well as in video form. Ignorance isn't entirely the fault of the game. The game is responsible for 10-15% of it. The rest is on the player.

I will admit I have missed some agree there are lots of good resources.

 

So, the question returns to 'why the f**k can't DE put on few lines of resource guide on tutorial (even just saying 'check planetary resources' would help tremendously)'

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I think that's a fair criticism and have personally made similar suggestions earlier in this thread.

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When i remember how it was when i started the game, it was all a little overwhelming and confused.

The game clearly needs some pointers for new players what to do next after the introduction quest. How to get on with the main storyline, how to get to other planets.

Well, after i figured out how to get to the next quest, i focused on the main storyline first.

Which was great btw, sadly it feels a bit unfinished. If you ask me the game could use a little more storyline quests, that have a replay value.

A Little new quest with every nightweave would be nice too. It is not that i don't like the random encounters, but that's hardly a real story.

So back to the new player experience, apart from being lost and overwhelmed. you have only bad gear at the start. the broken mods you get in the beginning need to go, new players dump their hard earned endo into them, just to figure out a little later that this was a big mistake.

Also credits are a big issue. Before you even get to be allowed into the index, apart from that you will nothing more than leech anyway, a new player will always be low on credits before that part of the game.

The normal credit drops from monsters could really be more.

Also it would be nice to give new players a little boost, like the first 5 mastery levels you get an orokin catalyst for free. So at least you have a chance try out some stuff with all the mods you get.

Edited by AtckAtck

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54 minutes ago, AtckAtck said:

The game clearly needs some pointers for new players what to do next after the introduction quest. How to get on with the main storyline, how to get to other planets.

http://prntscr.com/pa07ph

The game already does this. I think a lot of non-new players think it doesn't because it's been so long since they've done it and don't know all the things that have changed. There's more it could be doing, but it definitely tells you how to progress through the star chart.

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58 minutes ago, AtckAtck said:

So back to the new player experience, apart from being lost and overwhelmed. you have only bad gear at the start. the broken mods you get in the beginning need to go, new players dump their hard earned endo into them, just to figure out a little later that this was a big mistake.

These mods are more efficient and have lower capacity drain, which makes them good for newbies. The amount of endo they take is negligible.

58 minutes ago, AtckAtck said:

Also it would be nice to give new players a little boost, like the first 5 mastery levels you get an orokin catalyst for free. So at least you have a chance try out some stuff with all the mods you get.

You get a blueprint from one of the first quests with Maroo.

 

Edited by FrostDragoon

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I quit after an hour of playing when getting into the game for the first time. There was no roadmap, nothing. I had no clue what to do at all so I just quit.

2 years have passed since then and I put almost 2k hours into it in the past year.

Assuming there are others like me, it is easy to get overwhelmed by all the content at once without a clear goal in sight. Not having a clear goal is a huge issue at the beginning, and at the endgame too. Now I just sit in the ship wondering what should I do, just like when I first started. As soon as people unlock a few good weapons, the mr locked quests and gamemodes, it will be repetitive eventually. 

However I quite enjoy playing arbis even if i get little to nothing out of it in terms of rewards.

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On 2019-09-11 at 6:36 PM, VotumPrime said:

State what part of the game you think it is and why

When vets tell them there's no point to it and there's no endgame

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31 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

When vets tell them there's no point to it and there's no endgame

Vets say that about basically every game tho

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7 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Vets say that about basically every game tho

Either this, or "the game is dying", or a combination of both.

 

I guess there are many reasons why people quit games before they even get going properly. I didn't expect to get invested in Warframe at first, either. I was looking for something to play, tried it out and for some reason it kept my interest. And despite there being games that are better at specific things, Warframe is a really nice game offering a bit of everything. 

 

IMO, and that might rub some people the wrong way: Warframe is not particularly complicated. If you've played shooters and action-rpg's before, and actually look at the consoles in your Orbiter by yourself you should at least have a rough idea of what your first steps might be.

Warframe does have its share of cryptic stuff, but that comes way later (like what's the Quest 'Natah' and how do I start it).

 

A few reasons I've seen from players not really sticking around:

"Those controls…" - not everybody can adapt to fast and kinetic movement, which is IMO one of the biggest strengths of the game. Moving around can be so much fun in Warframe. But some try it out, get frustrated early on, and then don't try anymore.

The artstyle is not everybody's cup of tea. When Warframe popped up on Steam for the first time I was like "dafuq am I looking at". I still find WF to look really weird, but I find it really awsome that way. Others don't.

"There's almost no story." - Well... there is. But to get to see it one has to put effort into the game. Back in the early PS1-days, cutscenes and Story were quite often a reward in itself, for completing parts of games or for completing challenges. Modern players might have forgotten...

"There's so much grind!" - Well that really depends on your personal tolerance. By just playing the game one accumulates pretty much any resource at a steady rate, some admittedly slower than others - but you get the idea. Even when it's just resources, you basically get something for every hour played. 

 

Then of course, there are those people who hop into every free-2-play-game. They start, quickly lose interest and try out the next one. Or they have actual interest but they like some other game better while not having the time to play both (although you can technically split that).

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