To no one's surprise - buffing bows did not make them more viable

[No_Quarter]

They have same viability as they used to before the damage buff and before all the riven disposition buffs, now they just hit a bit harder.

Here is how to make people enjoy bows - make them a unique weapon class, make their own mods and let us fit them in ANY slot in loadout we want. Primary, Secondary,or Melee.
Bet a lot of people would use them once they do not have to sacrifice a viable primary weapon to something with such limited use. Or just let them keep primary mods but do not force us to maximize 2 Serrations.

I have few builds where I do not use melee at all, I may have some equipped because reasons but I would probably use Bow more if I could use it instead.
With some primaries I do not need a secondary so I could switch that, only thing that would suffer there are Glaives but you can just disable dual wield when bow is in secondary slot.

Don't see any drawbacks of such change, pros are loadout flexibility and adding some change to it. When Bow is in a melee slot you switch to it with your default melee button and continue using it as , well, a bow. And people will actually start using bows on regular, otherwise bows are cool but on alert mode and in crowded areas they suffer. Pretty good for stealth tho, if not the best.

Let us use them please.

If you just buff damage they will not become any more viable until you make them stronger than Snipers - then you got snipers to take care of and by same logic it's a dead end.
So ples, do not be lazy for bows, I love them in all games but all games also let me use a strong firearm when ship hits the fan. Secondaries are not as viable as primaries. Bows are not viable as assault rifles or shotguns, not on alert. All leads to Bows being separate.

[Jiminez_Burial]

4 minutes ago, No_Quarter said:

make them a unique weapon class, make their own mods and let us fit them in ANY slot in loadout we want.

My dreams of a Dread, Paris Prime and Rakta Cernos loadout will be a reality.  I'm gonna up vote this thread simply because of that idea.

[No_Quarter]

10 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

My dreams of a Dread, Paris Prime and Rakta Cernos loadout will be a reality.  I'm gonna up vote this thread simply because of that idea.

Could be fun.

My Ivara loadout would be Rakta Cernos, Cernos, Nagantaka - one shot, "shotgun" and a bit more flexible one. Suggesting that best place for such change to happen is before or with Ivara Prime access.

There is an issue of Bow rivens in such scenario, they could also be made as a separate drop like kitgun rivens are.

Apart from meme loadouts such as we suggested it would give us more reasons to use Bows anywhere. Buffing damage further will not do such thing, may make people try it, trade some Daikyu rivens and then go back to actual primary weapons.

When I say bows are not primary I am not saying bows are weak, in a horde shooting game they are not a viable primary choice which can be seen by how many people use them. They can be with stealth warframes and maybe support...

Edited October 5, 2019 by No_Quarter

[Miyabi-sama]

Just add the shot combo meter. Problem solved.

[No_Quarter]

12 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Just add the shot combo meter. Problem solved.

You may have missed the part where I said that buffing damage more will not be viable unless bows outdamage snipers and make snipers useless.

Adding combo to bows just like snipers have it would do the exact thing - it will either make bows still not viable if combo is not strong enough to reach snipers or if combo surpasses snipers then it made it so that snipers are turned into mastery fodder.

So instead of matching bows with a firearm, I find it better to have it be unique in a different way. What I suggested is a different way that does not power creep any other class and does not create more problems and more requirements for reworks. Instead it adds flexibility to otherwise quite boring loadouts that lack flexibility.

Adding combo either does nothing as bows already have high damage, or it adds problem of snipers being useless. Really struggle to see the value proposition of it.
Bows have stealth element and they should not have higher damage value. Stealth element sucks in this game, at least for the most part, so more damage is not a solution imho.

Especially with Exilus mods being added to all weapons - you can make any sniper silent. So if bows and snipers have combo, and both are silent, what makes you pick either of them? Damage. So in case of added combo to bows it is bows OR snipers, one is dead. Not a good solution imho

Edited October 5, 2019 by No_Quarter

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

My dreams of a Dread, Paris Prime and Rakta Cernos loadout will be a reality.  I'm gonna up vote this thread simply because of that idea.

That sounds a bit like the grakata, dual grakata and much-desired 3 grakatas duct taped together to form a crude Grineer bullet-vomiting glaive idea.

[taiiat]

i'm not sure how i see letting you put Bows into any Weapon Slot making them 'more viable' than they are now. the Weapon is either capable of doing its job, or it is not. the couple Status viable Bows do that job, the rest do their Damage job (and could still do the Status job with the right Riven).
but letting you musical chairs them around doesn't... change anything.

[Madway7]

I think the main problem is just that silent weapons don't really have a strong place in the game atm.

 

Edit:

"Especially with Exilus mods being added to all weapons - you can make any sniper silent. So if bows and snipers have combo, and both are silent, what makes you pick either of them? Damage. So in case of added combo to bows it is bows OR snipers, one is dead. Not a good solution imho"

@No_Quarter Good point, I guess my point is moot then unless they scrap the silencer mods.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Madway7

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

4 hours ago, No_Quarter said:

Don't see any drawbacks of such change

I do, you could pile primary set mods on the bow (same as you can with the sentinel weapons) to boost your actual primary in ways that may be an absolute pain for DE to code.

Instead, I'd just make bows benefit from melee combo and stealth multipliers on headshots. Chain stealth headshot kills for damage and affinity boosts.

This would give them something to rival snipers, a utility snipers don't have, and a synergy with melee.

See more 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by (XB1)KayAitch
Added link to new thread

[No_Quarter]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I do, you could pile primary set mods on the bow (same as you can with the sentinel weapons) to boost your actual primary in ways that may be an absolute pain for DE to code.

Instead, I'd just make bows benefit from melee combo and stealth multipliers on headshots. Chain stealth headshot kills for damage and affinity boosts.

for one - we already can do that with Sentiniel weapon mods, it is even stated on Wiki. We cannot stack beyond what we can already stack with sentiniel weapons so I do not see the problem with it.

Stealth combo is cool - until you realize that 99% of the gameplay is not stealth.

Rest of your quote ends up comparing snipers and bows trying to copy/paste combo on bows which imho creates unnecessary war between them. Switching bows to other place lets you use both.
 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'm not sure how i see letting you put Bows into any Weapon Slot making them 'more viable' than they are now. the Weapon is either capable of doing its job, or it is not. the couple Status viable Bows do that job, the rest do their Damage job (and could still do the Status job with the right Riven).
but letting you musical chairs them around doesn't... change anything.

imho it would give them a place to be used, they are viable as they are, just not viable as a primary weapon. Sidearm, yes.

That's why I think it would make more people use bows, AND would give loadouts a third dimension. Why not take bow as secondary? Easier to answer than taking it as primary.
Weapon's job is, at least one of them, is to give dimension to your loadout. You have shotgun primary? You should pick secondary with some range to it. Melee with condition overload? Pick primary or secondary weapon with some status, or maybe even sentiniel one.

Changes that, gives place to bows and raises loadouts to a next level. I see it as a win but I respect if you are against it, I just see that getting out of the box of primary, secondary, melee loadout could be a fun venture.

[DoomFruit]

5 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Just add the shot combo meter. Problem solved.

That was a stupid idea in the first place. Snipers ought to have been given a much higher weakspot multiplier - that's their purpose, after all. Pick one very valuable target and kill it in one hit from long range.

I've never liked the combo meter idea. Frantically spamming off shots to build a damage multiplier seemed completely wrong, especially for what's supposed to be a single shot precision weapon.

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, No_Quarter said:

imho it would give them a place to be used, they are viable as they are, just not viable as a primary weapon. Sidearm, yes.

but how is that any different? there are Spike Damage Weapons in both Gun Slots. there are Secondary Weapons that out Damage Bows too, so what, then?
are you really believing that making Bows not exclusively slot compete with a Sniper Rifle means that they'll become 'more viable'? if you're already bringing a Spike Damage Weapon like a Sniper Rifle, what use do you have another one for, especially if it still does the same things (Spike Damage, sometimes some Status).

if you want Bows to stand out more, then they'll have to... stand out more.

[NekroArts]

Something I want to point out is that the “problem for why bows aren’t used” hasn’t been identify, just a solution.

Bows are definitely strong, but I believe the reason why very few (if not no one) uses them is because they don’t quite fit into our gameplay. What I mean is that the process (charge, take aim, lead the shot if have to) is a bit much for a shot that is a hit-or-miss. In all of my bow-only sorties, almost everyone (except for those using warframe powers to kill) were performing 1/3 or lower compare to me in terms of kills. This holds true with snipers.

What stood out was that the frame they were using didn’t help them get kills. Even if a players’ performance with bows shouldn’t be dependent on the frame then they should’ve been performing close/at my performance or the squads kill score should be relatively even. What I use is Peaceful Provocation Night-Equinox, I was a mobile AoE slow. Learning to use bows, where enemies can sometime move erratically and suddenly to somewhere else, without a frame to slow/stop them can be daunting, especially when Warframe power makes killing so much faster. It’s achievable, but daunting.

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by NekroArts

[No_Quarter]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

but how is that any different? there are Spike Damage Weapons in both Gun Slots. there are Secondary Weapons that out Damage Bows too, so what, then?
are you really believing that making Bows not exclusively slot compete with a Sniper Rifle means that they'll become 'more viable'? if you're already bringing a Spike Damage Weapon like a Sniper Rifle, what use do you have another one for, especially if it still does the same things (Spike Damage, sometimes some Status).

if you want Bows to stand out more, then they'll have to... stand out more.

Okay, let's compare Euphona Prime and any random bow. Bow has easier trajectory, and is stealthy, Euphona does not have a charge time and has a buckshot. Bow can use Thunderbolt which could make it a fun choice.

So there is value proposition for both of them depending on player's taste and desires with a particular build. If we were looking what does most ONLY everyone would run with Saryn, Ignis, Catchmoon, Plague Kripath... Oh wait, every public matchmaker has at least one of those.... dem meta slaves.

It is even easier to justify using it instead of a melee weapon, like, "I do not feel like doing melee right now" which suggests that I may use other weapons which further suggest that I'd enjoy having more weapons at my service. Arca Plasmour is quite a useful primary, I'll take it, recently built Prisma twin gremlins cause of an awesome riven so we'll go with that.... hmmm.... If I could only use a third slot for something that I'd actually need...
Not everyone can carry Redeemer all the time, so why not? I'd take the bow there in certain scenarios, Orb Vallis, with everyone having bubbles it is easier to keep your mid distance and shoot them, also, randomness of bounties suggests that A rotation is a slaughterhouse and rotation B is sneaky spy mission. 

Point being that any weapon only needs to be good enough to be likeable and if it does not prevent you from doing things you want you are likely to use it. Tatsu is a good example, weapon is good enough but it looks darn cool so a lot of people use it. Also situation may suggest you use different things, I mean you can always bring Saryn and 1, 4 your life but not everyone finds joy in that.

My proposition is that every other primary weapon's existence is very reason why no one uses bows - it is a horde shooter. So if bows could fit in any other slot we would see more people use them because their use case scenario dictates that once ship hits the fan that you just holster the bow and start using actual weapons.

Does not make bow weak or less fun, just in horde shooter bow is not your primary weapon of choice. Warframe is played like a horde shooter for 99% of the time

As for why would people do this loadout or that loadout, I suggest you learn every possible gameplay before trying to question it. Particular suggestion from you may mean that you went solo stealthy with a bow which makes sense, then you got spotted and you pulled out a firearm and your firearm of choice just happens to be a sniper because you like it. Because I do not see reason to use snipers on most missions cause most combat will happen on less than 30 meters, open worlds for sure. That is why bow is there for stealth for those who like it. Same as snipers are there for those who like it.

I avoid talking and comparing damage because it is irrelevant for the proposition, it is about flexibility and you do not have to put it in there but I bet a lot of people would. I hate snipers for example, they hit hard but you got 0 flexibility, so I rarely pick them as high alpha damage weapons. It is either Euphona or a Bow... cause I like it, sure, I do Tridolons with Rubico cause it is just noticeably better. But for enemies on most missions Euphona Prime one shots arbitration targets with ease even after 1 hour, has a buckshot for when enemies get close so value proposition for a sniper rifle there is about 0. So by your logic of "why would you use X with Y" is because I mucking want to or I do not freaking want to. As a lot of Warframe players do, it is not all about that highest potential DPS you will never get to make use of, it is about having fun.

Bows are good enough to be fun when playing stealthy. In fact they always were, before all the buffs. so problem lies somewhere else. Okay charge time reduction was cool, I give it that.

Did you play any other games with bows? How do they stand out there? And in which cases did you use them? Go with popular one, Rise of the Tomb Raider, everyone has played it by now. You use it for hunting, when you are stealthy and for utility of taking down cases for example. That is where bow stands out there, when gameplay is slow, it has slight learning curve to learn to lead targets and that is it. Assault rifle is better there, shotgun is better, everything is better than bow but it is pretty cool to use it on stealth approach.
And that applies to a lot of games which feature bows, so why try to re-invent wheel in warframe and try to make Arrows magically do more damage than anti material rifles which effectively means Snipers in this game? Arrow velocity on strongest bows is about 300kmph and sniper rifles can pull nearly 2 mach which is about 9 times more. Why are we even comparing these? Why would anyone suggest they should be used for the same thing? Adding damage to bows for sake of adding it makes no sense to me

Bows are good for stealth, and not a primary weapon of choice in ANY game. That is how it's different.
And in other games people use bows and in Warframe they do not *surprised pikachu*. Which is also different.

Not to mention that shuffling your loadout in such way that there is more than one way to equip your self for the mission is not bad for the game.
And if ONE weapon class should be switchable between slots it's bows just because of their unique use case scenario.

We all know people who never use melee in this game, why not let those have more fun with it? I met many, tho personally I try to use everything to avoid getting bored.

[taiiat]

38 minutes ago, No_Quarter said:

Okay, let's compare Euphona Prime and any random bow. Bow has easier trajectory, and is stealthy, Euphona does not have a charge time and has a buckshot. Bow can use Thunderbolt which could make it a fun choice.

your entire argument for why this helps any, is nullified by part of your own complaint in the first place - if Guns are all going to have Exilus, then the Bow has no significant features in the Secondary Slot, either, by your determination.

- - - - - - - - - - 

having a Bow replace a Melee Weapon would first be a major downgrade overall (since Guns don't have Melee Mods), and while someone would choose it, would they have a reason to choose it over a Thrown Melee or a Gunblade?

being able to musical chairs the Weapons around only matters if there's something unique to offer. which Bows don't, but i don't really think that's a problem anyways, as they perform well so what is even the problem, especially when you now also say that it doesn't matter whether something is better, you use it because you like it. so then why not use a Bow because you like it? you've nullified yourself again.

 

you really gotta decide where your goalposts are. you can't say "Bows aren't good enough, so let me carry one somewhere else so that it doesn't have to compete" and then also say "i use this or that thing because i like it regardless of what other Weapons there are".
you can't stand in multiple opposing locations at once.

if you don't think a Bow is worth using over something else that fills a similar role, well, the solution would be for Bows to stand out more. do things that their competition can't, and/or in a way that they can't.

you also seem to be in the mistaken rut thinking that 'Primary' and 'Secondary' Weapons means that your Primary Weapon is your best Weapon, your Secondary Weapon is your 'eh' Weapon, and your Melee is (apparently) your throwaway Weapon or another good Weapon.
it's just 3 Weapon Slots, no Slot is better than another. that hasn't been that way for more than 4 years.

 

 

and uh, in the new Tomb Raider trilogy, the Bows' main standout features are actually that uh, it deals a crazy amount of Damage, with a strong Headshot Multiplier. quiet and also competing with the Bolt Action Rifles that you only get access to much later in the games, but having great handling at the same time, offering things that the Bolt Action Rifle can't (since the Bow has Ammo Types), and being something you can easily Craft Ammo in quantities for, so that you can use it a lot.
being silent is only one of the useful traits that Bows in Tomb Raider are presenting. most of what's useful are stand out features that the other Weapons simply cannot do.

(unrelated: Projectile Velocity is only one of the two components of the basic Force formula, and then after that you have to get into actual effect on target, which the Projectile itself actually determines more than its Velocity does. while sure, increasing Velocity is easier than increasing Mass, Diameter, or creating a more complicated Projectile - you do have to increase Velocity a lot in order for sheer Velocity to make up for all else, when talking about soft body targets. while on hard body targets, Velocity has a much harder time making up for all else.)

[Renegade343]

50 minutes ago, taiiat said:

(unrelated: Projectile Velocity is only one of the two components of the basic Force formula, and then after that you have to get into actual effect on target, which the Projectile itself actually determines more than its Velocity does. while sure, increasing Velocity is easier than increasing Mass, Diameter, or creating a more complicated Projectile

Increasing velocity only increases momentum, technically. You want increasing change in velocity to increase force, because force can be written as change in momentum over time, and change in momentum, assuming constant mass, is mass multiplied by change in velocity.

[Miyabi-sama]

3 часа назад, No_Quarter сказал:

So if bows could fit in any other slot we would see more people use them because their use case scenario dictates that once ship hits the fan that you just holster the bow and start using actual weapons.

Pffffft...

3 часа назад, No_Quarter сказал:

Bows are good for stealth, and not a primary weapon of choice in ANY game. That is how it's different.
And in other games people use bows and in Warframe they do not *surprised pikachu*. Which is also different.

This is no "other" game. This is Warframe. If you lack "stealth" grab thrown secondary or melee.

Bows are good. It's just people suck in killing stuff with bows. Landing hit is too hard for them. But once you can manage - it becomes even funnier than opticor.

There is literally nothing wrong with bows today. And never was. It's just general players' mindset "Why should I aim at one guy when I can wipe a crowd with my Plasmor?"

[No_Quarter]

5 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

This is no "other" game. This is Warframe. If you lack "stealth" grab thrown secondary or melee.

Bows are good. It's just people suck in killing stuff with bows. Landing hit is too hard for them. But once you can manage - it becomes even funnier than opticor.

There is literally nothing wrong with bows today. And never was. It's just general players' mindset "Why should I aim at one guy when I can wipe a crowd with my Plasmor?"

so you are saying there should never be any other option, any other option thinkable is bad by that logic? What if someone dislikes thrown secondaries? Or as I mentioned, just does not feel like doing melee that day? My argument is based on person not being meta slave and using stuff that he or she finds fun to use.

And once again, I am talking about THE OPTION to use them in any slot. Not forced, you can still use them wherever you like.

We agreed on one thing - that bows are damn strong but defeated by meta plebs. I just expanded on it - what if we could let people use pleb weapons and also have a bow somewhere in there?

Tho I gotta add that even tho it is possible to fight with a bow on full alert, enemy movement is too erratic to begin with, any kind of ping makes it impossible to lead no matter how good your aim is so it is no wonder very few people do use that on full alert. And this is coming from someone who plays games for 25 years, high refresh rate monitor, 1000hz mouse, all about that low input latency cause I like aiming and hitting heads. Bow is fun for memes, and for the sake of being that one guy who uses stuff no one else uses, for Legolas roleplay, because it can be fun, but never because it is the best option for gameplay on full blown alert.

I feel like that is the only thing that keeps bows in check - what you give out for using the bow. Not the damage, not the power - you give out the option to switch to before mentioned Arca Plasmour when you really need it. And with it a 3-rd dimension to loadouts, more choice. Not saying everyone will start using bows with this, there is still a problem of bows just requiring a brain to use compared to Atterax or Ignis, but I feel like there would be a better argument to put it in a bit more often, have a different loadout, change things up, spice them.

[Sharkgoblin]

 

what about: thunderbolt now has a 100% chacne to explode  and the damage instead of being soem S#&$ty flat number like it is, it reflect the damage of the bow counting crits and apply status. 

23 hours ago, No_Quarter said:

Secondaries are not as viable as primaries

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhm yeah im not sure about that one

[Miyabi-sama]

4 минуты назад, No_Quarter сказал:

so you are saying there should never be any other option, any other option thinkable is bad by that logic?

Sure, let's add here anime lolis. Or even better swap operators for cute lolis. That'll be splendid! And swap kubrows for ponies, no one uses them anyway. And we have peculiar bloom only for crits. That's unfair. Let's add mods to grow flowers on each status proc! My grakata and shotguns are sooooo status'ey!

8 минут назад, No_Quarter сказал:

What if someone dislikes thrown secondaries? Or as I mentioned, just does not feel like doing melee that day?

Just don't use them. Problem solved. I don't like infested guns and melee. Heard infested Zaw packs a punch. Guess what I did with that Zaw? Sold it right after rank 30.

10 минут назад, No_Quarter сказал:

My argument is based on person not being meta slave and using stuff that he or she finds fun to use.

You can outright check my profile and rest assured I am WAY FAR from being META fanboy.

12 минут назад, No_Quarter сказал:

And once again, I am talking about THE OPTION to use them in any slot. Not forced, you can still use them wherever you like.

Because giving that OPTION to just one bow weaponry class is nonsense. I'd like to have a Tonkor instead my melee. Someone wants to have 3 sniper rifles. Someone wants 3 kitguns.

It is not I am envy and demanding. It is how rules of the game are.

15 минут назад, No_Quarter сказал:

Tho I gotta add that even tho it is possible to fight with a bow on full alert, enemy movement is too erratic to begin with, any kind of ping makes it impossible to lead no matter how good your aim is so it is no wonder very few people do use that on full alert.

Bull@#$t, you can complete every mission without a single kill, hence there is a riven challenge. Moreover, pings are the problem of a person who experiencing it. You can set a range of preferrable ping in options before connecting to hosts.

You invented a phantom problem and proposed a solution that does not solve it in any way.

Bows are for challenge and fun. Not for your regular mowing down grineer for bounty. Wanna memes? Go for Grakata or Hema.

If your real concern is about bows are underappreciated then I agree. But, well, as a Banshee main I got used to this feeling.

[No_Quarter]

4 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

you can complete every mission without a single kill

So you saying it is possible to do so does not mean people find it fun to do, it is actually quite boring after 2 minutes or so to not shoot in horde shooter game. To each his own, just because YOU can do it does not mean some random person on this planet may not do it.....

4 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Because giving that OPTION to just one bow weaponry class is nonsense. I'd like to have a Tonkor instead my melee. Someone wants to have 3 sniper rifles. Someone wants 3 kitguns.

It is not I am envy and demanding. It is how rules of the game are.

I have a brother who spends entire life on HARDCORE fights against anything new and when he finally tries it he finds it fun.

Maybe you should try accepting that stuff could be fun even if YOU personally, without a single evidence or a rational thought, you do not know if it will be fun or not.

Reason 3 snipers in loadout are not in my suggestion is because people already use snipers.... And people do not use bows, as suggested it is a weapon class with unique use case that no other weapons have. And who knows, if people accept that then maybe we can get some other more flexible loadouts that do not break the game. We know for sure that having Arca, Ignis and Catchmoon in one loadout is broken so my step one of the suggestion was a class that would not make it broken.

I find it funny that someone takes such passion to fight something just for sake of keeping things as they are.... You still got time to learn how much rules change in this game 😉
Weapons are getting an exilus slot, that is a new rule? Should it be banished? I really dislike that kind of argument against any change, it is shallow, defensive and has 0 creativity to it. Argue the topic which suggests to change the rule, do not argue me that rule is such. I got no personal quarrel against you or I am tied to this idea - I want quality suggestions how bows can be improved without hurting other weapon classes.

Instead of telling me that things are as such and that those are rules and that things should be that way because you think so - tell me why is it bad to have bows there? Let's move back to being constructive, I did not claim anyone here being a meta slave, it was a sarcastic way of saying this game has more weapons than Ignis, Catchmoon and Plague Keewar and maybe people would appreciate a dimension of having an option to shove in a bow. Since bows are the most underused class in the game I figure they are a good option, DE buffing them left, right and center shows a desperate attempt to make people use and enjoy bows. And no one does, so my logic says - we are doing something wrong here. It is not their power level that keep them in check.

My answer to it is that it's other broken weapons they are fighting against for a slot in our loadouts and they are loosing. So either make them broken enough, or, give them more slot options. That is my logic.

I would be happy to see your solution to the problem, how can we let more people use bows? One of my initial ideas was - why not have a unique slot for a bow and let everyone have one with them but that kinda interferes with warframe roles and you would need to kinda shove it in the lore that they sleep with their sword and their bow and that is just too much work and kinda forcing it.

So with the thought that bows are fun and not broken I find it that no matter where you let people use them they will not break the game.

1) adding combo to bows adds unnecessary fight against snipers
2) adding more raw damage will do nothing as it already did nothing
3) synergy with stealth kills won't work much as not many people play stealth and it still does not gives us reason to use it because we might need it
 

so we can:

1) make peace with it
2) keep buffing them because repeating same process 7 times and wondering why the heck will it not work is not insane
3) think outside the box

I find loadouts to be to narrow, if you want ranged weapon it has to be primary, secondary weapons that have zoom also have projectile velocity of 2 meters per day.

Having one class or few classes to be "free floaters" sounds like we are breaking a rule, but it also sounds that we may get some fun loadouts. I do not think every class should free float, shotguns that are primary should stay that, feel like rocket launchers could float, snipers need to stay primary, beam weapons too. Thrown secondaries could free float, I can see an argument to use it instead of your melee weapon if you do not intend to use your melee, Chroma could finally have 2 weapons he can use cause you do have to have that Emo Hikou.
Feel like spearguns could use a push, maybe dual wield them with one handed Melee? Roleplay as Gandalf, get CO going... They could free float too imo.

It would also open up opportunities for new weapons to fill up roles, like raw stupid example would be Redeemer in your primary slot.

Since bows are at dead end after 7 buffs - if we will ever have those free floaters at any point then it should start with bows as they are least likely to break the game and most likely to benefit from it. Or we could say rules are there and change won't happen because we like how no one ever uses one weapon class... Sorry, 3 people use it, sorry. But one of those started after Daikyu got buffed and will stop after next weapon gets a buff....

Ples, give me a good idea or try to make my idea better ❤️ 
We are here to try to address the problem with bows, not a phantom problem, no one uses bows and those are official stats backed up by 7 buffs that made total output way over 100% of what it was and still no one uses them - about 50% raw damage buff, riven disposition got pushed significantly, charge time reduced, projectile velocity made shots more reliable and still usage of bows is nowhere to be seen. I am not creating a phantom problem, or maybe I am just so unlucky that I never meet all those people who use bows cause I see it once a week. Then why would DE buff them so much if there was no problem? I do not see them buffing Saryn, Ignis, Equinox, Volt, Arca Plasmour...... Maybe cause I see at least one of those on each public matchmaker but chances are more than one?

So do not fight me, give us a good idea instead.

4 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

 

what about: thunderbolt now has a 100% chacne to explode  and the damage instead of being soem S#&$ty flat number like it is, it reflect the damage of the bow counting crits and apply status. 

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhm yeah im not sure about that one

couple of them are, majority are not. Means game has balance issues, yes, but it also means that majority of weapons are not as viable and not everyone likes Catchmoon.

Still, by such logic, if you compare it to Acceltra..... yea.... Even specters are OP with Acceltra, just leave one on Arbitration Interception and unless Ai bugs out you will nto lose the point. Only after 40 minutes it starts to feel weak, then you just recast a specter to get higher level Acceltra and see it MELT heavy enemies like they are cheese. It is stupid.

But since community has a lot of meta slaves who do not even look at the new content if their meta is still meta - DE has to power creep everything with each update to keep player retention. It is DE's fault for feeding that culture, yet again it is a cheap way to make a lot of people run for something, farm it the entire day, trade it, buy it so it works, keeps meta slaves entertained, keeps cash flow to DE - everyone wins. Except the game who suffers from power creep but something's gotta give and it is easier to take a giant dump on your previous content than to get less money.

[NekroArts]

31 minutes ago, No_Quarter said:

Reason 3 snipers in loadout are not in my suggestion is because people already use snipers.... And people do not use bows

By "already use" are you telling us that their's a good amount people using snipers outside of Sortie bosses/weapon restriction and Eidolons?

6 hours ago, No_Quarter said:

We agreed on one thing - that bows are damn strong but defeated by meta plebs. I just expanded on it - what if we could let people use pleb weapons and also have a bow somewhere in there?

 

1 hour ago, No_Quarter said:

I find it funny that someone takes such passion to fight something just for sake of keeping things as they are....

It's not so much that those opposing wants to keep it the way it is, it's because adding the ability to equip bows into any slot won't help bows get used more. Seriously, it's not the "no one uses it because of meta", it's because actually using bows in our normal gameplay is not easy and worth it.

[Sdric]

Bows need reduced RELOAD speed. Having reload ON TOP of charge time reduces DPSto massively for a horde shooter like Warframe. Adding more overkill damage won't change that.

As long as enemy momentum won't be introduced outside of Archwing and enemies are still able to do instant 180° turns or go from 60km/h to 0 in an instant - bows will also need a more larger hitbox in order to be reliable. In comparison to other games trying to lead enemies (aiming in their path) is just not consistently possible.

[AzureTerra]

On 2019-10-05 at 6:44 PM, No_Quarter said:

Let us use them please.

They are very usable right now.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Sdric said:

Bows need reduced RELOAD speed.

You have to be joking with this one.  The reload on bows is virtually instant.  Enough to the point that using Fast Hands mod or similar practically has no effect.  There is one exception to this and that is Artemis Bow (which is a unique case all by itself).