Encouraging words from Rebecca on Warframe's difficulty problem (GameSpot interview)

[OvisCaedo]

"We're aware of the unsolvable problem that's been true for most of the game's life and we've only perpetually doubled down on and worsened with powercreep over time" isn't particularly encouraging.

[Jarriaga]

30 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So you don't mind the risk of losing everything you equipped from any mission as your retention? Alright, maybe this system can be made exclusively for you as a test, means no excuse for you to come to the forum crying when you lose your maxed arcane grace, umbral build frames and weapons with rivens and you need to reclaim it or get a new set of those lost gears because you died once

Bring it on. I cleared The Witcher 2 on Death March, dying meant losing your entire save file.

30 minutes ago, 844448 said:

You're a Tenno, an omnipotent being fighting mortals, what do you expect? As a demigod you expect every mortal human to be able to face you at your level?

In God of War, Kratos can be killed by simple mortals. In Mortal Kombat, Raiden, Kronika, Jason, and Shinnok can be killed by Sonya. In Dragon Ball games, Yamcha can defeat Ultra Instinct Goku. In Pokémon, you can somehow capture Arceus, which is God. In Halo, Master Chief experiences recoil from firing a puny pistol. In Bioshock, plasmids and vigor are available like candy and caused the falls or their civilization due to overuse, yet no enemy is seen using them against you (Other than bosses).

The game's lore is second to the gameplay in any game. Not the other way around. This is why the "videogame logic" meme exists, and it is a terrible argument. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Jarriaga

[-CdG-Zilchy]

DE can't address the issue of difficulty cos they suck at playing their own game. How are you supposed to balance such things when you have no idea what each frame and weapon is truly capable of?

And look at their next step: exilus slot for weapons... I'm sure that won't be used to add more power creep or anything.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Zilchy

[Jarriaga]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If you feel like the early game was more challenging and more fun for you, you know you dont have to use completely min maxed builds all the time right? You can make the game more challenging by making yourself less powerful.

I'm not making any assumptions about you, but I think it's funny how people will put like 6 forma in a warframe so they can use umbral mods, use maxed arcanes, use three riven modded weapons with like 30 forma between them, and use mods that have like 70 trillion worth of endo and then wonder why everything dies like ants.

I have tried it. And it does work, until you realize this is not adding to your growth and progress. At that point you might as well play with one hand tied to your back.

For the record, I'd be perfectly fine with DE adding a cap to the number of Forma you can add and I'd like it if they'd remove Arcane Energize, Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, Zenurik's dash, and squad energy restores so each ability cast matters and the game becomes more tactical. Sure there's still Trinity and Nekros, but not everyone is going to limit themselves to not play the game if those frames are not available, and Rage/Hunter Adrenaline are fine because you need to take damage, so they are not free energy just because with no downside.

But that's a highly unpopular opinion.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Jarriaga

[VanFanel1980mx]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

The new system of Tau needs to have a lock behind it so they can start balancing around later game players and not new mr4 or something that got carried there.

Or make it still hard for said MR4 player despite being carried there.

[VanFanel1980mx]

6 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

DE can't address the issue of difficulty cos they suck at playing their own game. How are you supposed to balance such things when you have no idea what each frame and weapon is truly capable of?

And look at their next step: exilus slot for weapons... I'm sure that won't be used to add more power creep or anything.

Finally someone said it, sorry but its true, this is a clear case of GDC's  "We are developers not gamers" approach to actual game development.

[Jarriaga]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

The new system of Tau needs to have a lock behind it so they can start balancing around later game players and not new mr4 or something that got carried there. A lot of the things they've made still have had the considerations of newer players in mind which while not a bad thing itself definitely isn't going to come close to pushing the boundaries of difficulty. Or perhaps put an open world on a further planet like Eris for infested open world where you can push that. The original Corpus on Fortuna were pretty tough and hit hard and fast but it was on Venus so there was legitimate reason to cut the enemies back unfortunately.

This would be beautiful, and that's something I am hoping for. Time will tell if they go this route.

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Or make it still hard for said MR4 player despite being carried there.

Or make it impossible for an MR4 player to be carried there just like they can't join sorties until they clear TWW themselves so they are not even part of the balancing equation at all.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Jarriaga

[VanFanel1980mx]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Or make it impossible for an MR4 player to be carried there just like they can't join sorties until they clear TWW themselves so they are not even part of the balancing equation at all.

Technically speaking that's how it is supposed to work, no access to certain areas until you completed the quest and so on, but then again we get into the argument about old players not liking when new players catch up to them.

[Jarriaga]

Just now, VanFanel1980mx said:

Technically speaking that's how it is supposed to work, no access to certain areas until you completed the quest and so on, but then again we get into the argument about old players not liking when new players catch up to them.

Those players should be ignored by DE. I was not born a veteran. None of them were. If other (New) players stay and devote themselves just like we did there's no reason why they shouldn't have what we have.

I do have a problem with new players being able to buy their way to the top though. Exergis for example. Not a meta weapon, but the acquisition requirements are steep, yet they can be bypassed day 1 with plat. Some weapons should not be up for sale.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Jarriaga

[VanFanel1980mx]

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Those players should be ignored by DE. I was not born a veteran. None of them were. If other (New) players stay and devote themselves just like we did there's no reason why they shouldn't have what we have.

I do have a problem with new players being able to buy their way to the top though. Exergis for example. Not a meta weapon, but the acquisition requirements are steep, yet they can be bypassed day 1 with plat. Some weapons should not be up for sale.

The problem for some of those players is how stuff has gotten streamlined, let's say for example they get rid of daily standing limits and other time walls, certain players really don't like the idea of people going from MR0 to MR25 in a week (which mind you, would require a full week of endless sessions and grinding.

[Ikyr0]

when or if DE addresses this, I'll return to once again enjoy the game. I love WF's lore and style, but the terrible rewards and lack of challenge are what ultimately got me to uninstall it so I can make more space on my SSD. D2 really has the difficulty curve and reward scaling figured out, which is why I'm enjoying that game so much right now. many of us have been discussing this issue for years on these forums only to be laughed at by the fashionframers...it's kind of a letdown that DE listened to these goofs, and allowed core system problems build up for so long.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Ikyr0

[-CdG-Zilchy]

54 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

This would be beautiful, and that's something I am hoping for. Time will tell if they go this route.

They won't because they won't makeas much money. This is the simple truth, imagine the uproar on the forums if they locked it from newer players. There would be countless threads of players whining that they can't access the new content after playing for a whole week. And DE won't be able to sell as many cosmetics which has become their main focus as opposed to engaging gameplay. 

And MR locks are garbage anyway. You want to put a REAL player lock on something? Make it based on how many logins.

[Aldain]

It all stems from the Diablo-tier power creep limiting what can be designed due to having to account for a player being able to deal 12 quadrillion damage in a few seconds.

This absurd numerical upper limit is the reason why we have things like, absurd damage resistance, hilarious armor, ability immunity/nullification, damage caps and so much more that many players have voiced a dislike of.

No matter how high the enemy numbers creep up the players have an innate advantage due to the enemies being dumb as a bag of rocks, which results in the enemies only being a "challenge" when they start having hitscan one-shot-kill bullets.

The lack of challenge is a two-fold issue that needs a compromise from the players on the damage front as well as a once-over for the design of the enemies, however that is such a large scale overhaul that it would likely take as long as Empyrean is taking now to come in any form.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

35 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

when or if DE addresses this, I'll return to once again enjoy the game. I love WF's lore and style, but the terrible rewards and lack of challenge are what ultimately got me to uninstall it so I can make more space on my SSD. D2 really has the difficulty curve and reward scaling figured out, which is why I'm enjoying that game so much right now. many of us have been discussing this issue for years on these forums only to be laughed at by the fashionframers...it's kind of a letdown that DE listened to these goofs, and allowed core system problems build up for so long.

You echo my sentiments exactly bro, half my competitive clan plays other games these days, lying dormant in the hopes that the game will one day improve.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Pretty sure unless they program it in to a dev build, none of the dev team has ever encountered a level 10099 eximus, unlike many of us. They have no clue about the existing synergies that allow for endless scaling in a mission and thus no idea how to prevent us doing it. Just look at the recent event where they were clueless that the Demolysts health became 10hp after reaching level 9999, they don't thoroughly playtest their new content because they have no idea HOW to. There is existing gear, frames and weapons which simply trivialize all content and they're utterly unaware of how we do it. 

They don't learn from previous mistakes either, to name just a couple the Profit Taker was released with Shield disruption auras affecting it (I was doing the fight in 3 minutes with a MK 1 Braton) just like Eidolons originally were and then you also have the recent Pathocyst released and people aborting the mission if they didn't get the right part drop to save their key, just as we did when Acolytes were first introduced and everyone was farming argon scope before they added the drop as an identified item until you completed the mission.

How do you ever expect a company like that to manage to add challenge to this game, given the amount of mods that exist, the powercreep that is rivens, corrupted mods, primed mods, exilus slots etc as well as the known frame synergies that they are completely clueless about?

Edited October 8, 2019 by Zilchy

[844448]

Let's take a look at the problem on difficulty on several viewpoints

- Putting the balance on view, how do you make a balance between average players and players that min-max their builds? A very simple example would be the eidolons. Just on teralyst, how big is the percentage on groups that able to deplete the shield in one hit? And looking at the whole, how long is the average time to beat a teralyst? The power on each player is wildly different

Looking at the balance again, if there's any kind of balancing attempted, people will immediately scream like DE commit a mass murdering that makes holocaust a joke. Look at riven disposition balancing, it's already written in the first place that the disposition will change based on popularity and people still scream "DE don't respect player investment" when they don't bother to read the warning and set the price ridiculously

- Putting the difficulty and challenge on view, how do you make something that is difficult or challenging, but acceptable on both sides that want to play as usual and want to test their limits? Also how do you make difficulty and challenge that won't be dismissed as cheap, cop out or broken? So far any kind of thing that resembles some difficulty or challenge is dismissed as "bad design", even people are crying "it's too hard" and demand a nerf on enemies like terra corpus being seen as "broken"

As seen on this thread I made

- Looking at the accessibility, if you make a requirement for something, people would complain like Profit-Taker requiring Old Mate with Solaris United, or arbitration requiring you to clear all mission nodes

So, how do you make a challenge or difficulty that able to satisfy any side, but at the same doesn't make people dismiss it as cheap, annoying or bad? Also without changing the core of the game to make people screaming it's a nerf and massive disrespect on player investment?

[taiiat]

the awareness of stuff like that has been expressed since like, 2015.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Bring it on. I cleared The Witcher 2 on Death March, dying meant losing your entire save file.

In God of War, Kratos can be killed by simple mortals. In Mortal Kombat, Raiden, Kronika, Jason, and Shinnok can be killed by Sonya. In Dragon Ball games, Yamcha can defeat Ultra Instinct Goku. In Pokémon, you can somehow capture Arceus, which is God. In Halo, Master Chief experiences recoil from firing a puny pistol. In Bioshock, plasmids and vigor are available like candy and caused the falls or their civilization due to overuse, yet no enemy is seen using them against you (Other than bosses).

The game's lore is second to the gameplay in any game. Not the other way around. This is why the "videogame logic" meme exists, and it is a terrible argument. 

A “hardcore” (Diablo 2 days) mode where frame and weapons are lost when you die but Operator is eternal would be a GREAT MODE.

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I think we often forget that they have a major goal to accomplish while still trying to address our concerns (potentially thousands and thousands of requests, changes, reworks, etc.). Looking at the dev workshop alone blows my mind with just how many requests they receive. Adding rando difficulty and reconstructing scaling would be added chaos if building within current content...so much so, we would be out with the pitchforks screaming for bloody murder because there would be no focus on content progression. Looking at where the games is now, I didn't expect them to just randomly change the entire scope and model of Warframe's difficulty without also applying a real reason to be difficult. Their route is definitely not the solution for this generation of gamer impatience...but, then again, warframe was never designed for the impatient.

DE puts in a helluva lot of detail that slows the process and I agree it can rattle the nerves but I'm also very happy they stay the course. For them, telling the story is critical to the model and is also the best reasoning to fulfill requests while remaining on the big task. Railjack and New War creates a LOT of room to add difficulty, puzzles and refreshing content that vets want while also giving new-mid level players an even larger library of content to navigate through.

I am not sure DE has a goal anymore, or even if it does it doesn't have a direction to actually reach it, atleast one we can observe. 

DE has dug itself into a hole by introducing things that at launch have potential for growth and then ignoring it cause it did not work out as intended (archwing, conclave, raids come to mind). 

And instead of going back they make new things hoping to get it to be popular enough to keep us occupied until the next update. And there have been hits and misses with this approach. 

The suggestions in the workshops didn't come up in a day, they have been piling for 6 years of course you would be overwhelmed, you aren't supposed to go through 6 years worth of feedback in 2 seconds, you need to give it time every day. 

The story and lore is all over the place, multiple loose ends no thematic or temporal consistency and power creep that keeps on creeping on making things too easy, we don't need more challenging content honestly, we need to scale down on all that has crept so far. 

Your argument on progression stops when they make changes would have been valid if there was an actual progression with each update (note the term progression not content) for me progression happens when you learn more about the universe that usually only happens once every year (nightwave is nice as side progression from that regard) 

There is detail in the graphics, most other things are kinda not as polished I feel,

I do get that they may not know what to do other than take a sledge hammer to some of the things that exist. But they need to decide and say if they are actually going to do something about it or they are fine with how things are. 

I will reserve my judgement on new war and Railjack until its actually released. 

I like DE, I like the game, I do not see myself stopping, but I see myself playing it less and less as there are not that many fun things to do at my stage where I already have everything. 

[VanFanel1980mx]

2 hours ago, Zilchy said:

Pretty sure unless they program it in to a dev build, none of the dev team has ever encountered a level 10099 eximus

As I mentioned before, disregarding the "concentration issues" Rebecca may have to deal with (considering many streamers can do a bit of multitask) she was overwhelmed by a bunch of Lv40 enemies in that one stream where she was testing disruption and I think someone on the staff really thought having damage debuffs was "challenging" and stuff like that, I don't know how the internal testing may work but I can't believe nobody among them performs some extreme testing, not even a constant Lv100-1000 checks on the simulacrum, let alone 10099.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

As I mentioned before, disregarding the "concentration issues" Rebecca may have to deal with (considering many streamers can do a bit of multitask) she was overwhelmed by a bunch of Lv40 enemies in that one stream where she was testing disruption and I think someone on the staff really thought having damage debuffs was "challenging" and stuff like that, I don't know how the internal testing may work but I can't believe nobody among them performs some extreme testing, not even a constant Lv100-1000 checks on the simulacrum, let alone 10099.

Mate do you remember the devstream hydrocap 1x3 that took 40 minutes? I was praying that the Eidolon would fall through the map so they could experience the same bugs we do. She also died while showcasing the new Arbitrations mode, inside of 5 minutes into the mission. 

As for those debuffs lol, only the consistent nullifier field was irritating, the rest I didn't notice in my 8.5 hour run.

In the recent devstream they showed enemies up to level 250 in the simulacrum so it is possible but like I said they have no clue of the techniques we use to kill max level enemies so they can't combat it with their limited gaming knowledge and abilities. And most people aren't going to tell them how either since their kneejerk response to finding out about how players are doing such things is to blanket ban. 

It's as simple as providing a cosmetic/badge, special booster etc as a way of thanking Tenno for doing their playtesting for them. Give a soft release of the new content to the exploiters, theory crafters etc whatever you want to call us crowd and we'll find the bugs so that they can release an actual polished product for the first time in years.

[VanFanel1980mx]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The story and lore is all over the place

Didn't they admit they are making up stuff as they go? I think that's why they discarded the connection to Dark Sector.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

5 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Didn't they admit they are making up stuff as they go? I think that's why they discarded the connection to Dark Sector.

How's that karma system going after the choice in War Within lol.

[belanya]

Il y a 13 heures, Jarriaga a dit :

This part of the interview with Rebecca at the 14:52 mark made me happy as she directly addressed the power scaling vs. difficulty problem in Warframe. She mentions how being able to one-shot everything up to certain point leads to boredom because the game feels too easy, and that's a challenge they (DE) want to tackle on as a team. How they go about it is anyone's guess, but it is encouraging to know that they are aware of it in no uncertain terms.

Should i do a list of all the declarations they made and compare them to what they finally did?

Well lets do a quick one.

Melee 3.0 ll come this year, they said that 2 years ago (3 years?)

Damage 2.5 ll come with khora. I dont think they are working on it anymore

Eidolon ephemera ll be tied to some kind of challenge. Actually its true, if you consider nightwave challenges as challenges....

Disruption ll be some kind of end game content. Its level 30 regular content

Disruption ll be a "better performance = better reward" thing. If you consider doing the bare minimum expected as a performance, thats true.

etc...

Anyways they can tell what they want, the game design and the game balance make it nearly impossible to provide any difficulty or atleast interesting difficulty.

They can still pull out a bullet sponge with damage cap per hit, immune to cc, operator/wf abilities, status and who can randomly one shot you without being able to revive. And obviously, go for at least 16 phases with unskippable transitions to artificially increase the fight lenght. Oh and yeah, put some limitations in order to avoid those tryharder to spam it, like one every 12 hours. Sounds very fun to me.

And on top of that, they ll not be able to provide any good rewards for the same reasons. Well they can still go for better arcanes/mods, yeah pretty sure primed serration would be great or primed arcane energize, or primed primed continuity, or my favorites ones primed blood rush and primed arcane guardian...

Edited October 8, 2019 by belanya