Encouraging words from Rebecca on Warframe's difficulty problem (GameSpot interview)

[VanFanel1980mx]

Wait, too easy? wasn't Rebecca struggling with Lv40 enemies in Disruption beta?

[Chappie]

41 minutes ago, CalmClouds said:

How about they start by letting the player increase the levels of a mission to our liking? I feel that level 90-110 enemies are just right for me, but unfortunately there isn’t realistically a way for me to choose that. I’d like to play earth missions against level 100+ enemies, for instance.

I look at what happened in the Division ans basically it is a race to max world level with only people wanting to troll n00bs going to lower world sets for PvP and using twink'd characters. 

I look at Destiny where light/power level for the most part means very little once you cross a threshold since they tune the game more around your accuracy/mechanics (e.g. skill) rather than gear meaning that any little ounce of power that is tangible is almost immediate meta.

It is an interesting idea...but what happens when you follow it bit further.   Do you not see the risk of "elitist silo forcing meta play" as a result?    There is so much that can go wrong with your idea ...more than I think can go right.   This happens in engineering all the time.  We have a "great idea that will solve most of our problems" until we actually start poking at it and go "well...crap".     Keep up with the ideas...but do not think that DE, for a moment, hasn't considered a litany of concepts/ideas and realized the risk vs reward was most likely not worth it.  

[Chaemyerelis]

Ill believe it when I see it. In order for us to not melt enemies our damage will need to be nerfed. Anything else is just a half measure and as a developer DE doesn't want to hear the moaning and groaning from the shortsighted playerbase about said nerfs. So any changes will he just a series of bandaids. 

I hope they prove me wrong though. 

 

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Yeah, no. They've been aware of this issue for a long time. Thing is, they can't or won't do anything about it. Lower the power level of our gear is dismissed with the ever present "respecting player investment" excuse, while DE has shown to hate revising the difficulty of content that has been in the game for a while. So, the only option for them is to add new content with more bullet spongy, more damaging enemies for new game modes/locations. But even then, with how little effort they put into balancing the overall power level of players, it won't take long until a set of weapons, mods or frames have been released that have pushed the power creep far enough to make that content trivial as well.

It's a never ending cycle that players keep lapping up, so as long as DE profits pushing the power creep curve there's little incentive to make them reconsider.

The only thing that would truly improve combat is if the ttk of enemies was drastically increased and the spawn rate lowered, so combat is less chaotic and players can actually engage with different enemy units instead of indiscriminately mowing them down with nukes and melee spin attacks. Problem is that this requires way more effort than, is less profitable and would cause players to complain about not being able to one shot tiles anymore.

Edited October 7, 2019 by AuroraSonicBoom

[Cubewano]

2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Still can't see why we need challenge in Warframe, it's been doing just fine without it for the past 6 years. Frankly, all we need is good, fun content (I know fun isn't allowed in DE's courtyard anymore, but hey, a man can dream).

Don't consider it necessarily as challenge, but engagement, people want to feel involved in play and that's not as easily accessed when the game is overly simplified or easy to combat. Face rolling entire rooms in an instant without any opposition or thoughtful involvement isn't a net enjoyment for some, in fact its the furthest thing from it, and that is what prompts all these threads and requests and controversies over the games balance state, because people want to change that experience to something they enjoy and can feel engaged with. I welcome challenge personally because I don't find myself entertained by rooms being emptied in an instant without particular thought or responsiveness on my part, I don't enjoy watching other people clear rooms in an instant leaving me with no involvement of my own, I don't like the feeling of disengagement that comes from it all and I'd be happy for any method that can shift that experience/combat loop away from such. To me that shift allows for my fun.  

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

In my opinion, true challenge is inherently interesting and engaging when it is skill-based rather than stat-based, which in turn makes it intrinsically rewarding and does not need external rewards to sustain itself.

Respecting the time and effort invested into player arsenals just throws a curve ball in there that moves it back to stat-based difficulty, which is an impossible goal unless all WF abilities are scaled to the same level, which in turn moves the needle towards efficiency.

What I like is games that have systems in place that make it accessible for new players, that can be disabled to make the game more challenging.

The first two Gunvolt games are a good example of this. The scoring and crafting systems encourage skillful play by rewarding you with a points multiplier (called Kudos) for avoiding damage and killing enemies in stylish ways (Such as killing multiple enemies simultaneously, or taking down as many as you can without touching the ground), which translates into a higher rank at the end and consequently more resources.

Enemy patterns are fairly tricky to dodge (especially bosses), so the game also has a mechanic that lets you avoid taking health damage at the cost of another resource that you can recharge at will (meaning you are functionally invincible in most situations if you just mash the recharge input), but since Kudos is defined by hits and not damage, you still lose out on the aforementioned score.

Each game also has an item that disables Prevasion in exchange for an increase to Kudos accumulation, which serves as a direct incentive to take off the training wheels once you feel you've mastered the game.

43 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Wait, too easy? wasn't Rebecca struggling with Lv40 enemies in Disruption beta?

You say that as if she can't also recognise other people's opinions as valid. Being able to understand where someone is coming from even if you have a different perspective is a valuable skill.

It's worth noting that IIRC, her weapons were unmodded in that demo.

[Gabbynaru]

6 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Face rolling entire rooms in an instant without any opposition or thoughtful involvement isn't a net enjoyment for some,

They're playing the wrong game then. I really don't see the need to make this game exactly like all other games on the market. Like, what's the point of turning every single game into the exact same one that they've been playing for years? Cause I see none, other than utter stupidity.

Seriously, these threads and this line of thinking is the exact same as the threads asking for Warframe to become a MOBA, Hero Shooter or Battle Royale. People coming from game X want Warframe to become game X, even though they already have game X and will likely go back to game X even if Warframe does give in and follow in the footsteps of game X. Why? Is creativity, innovation and uniqueness so hated in this world that Warframe is somehow a cardinal sin? Cause F me if these threads don't make it look like it is.

Warframe has every right to exist in this form, as a power fantasy, and if people don't like it and want it to be like a different game... good, but they should play that other game. Because just as that other game is their fun, and y'all defend this pointless homogenization of gaming, Warframe as it is is my kind of fun, and I will defend it's uniqueness.

I didn't complain when Sekiro wasn't to my tastes, why do you complain when Warframe isn't to yours?

[VanFanel1980mx]

8 minutes ago, Corvid said:

You say that as if she can't also recognise other people's opinions as valid. Being able to understand where someone is coming from even if you have a different perspective is a valuable skill.

It's worth noting that IIRC, her weapons were unmodded in that demo.

I am just saying the general feel the staff gives me when it comes to testing and saying "that's challenging" seems to rely on people who barely play vs people who have played extensively, there isn't even a middle point most of the time, despite the time I have played Warframe I consider myself around the middle where I like to breeze through sometimes while having some good action here and there, a lot of people who ask for challenge seems to limit themselves to complaining how everything dies too fast and thus allows DE to just keep the broken scaling system and keep adding stuff that basically mandates tank or nuke frames unless they also add dispels and immunities, are there even people who actively play the game on the dev team? and I mean play the game like the average player does, not just meme streams and half-baked demos.

[VanFanel1980mx]

Just now, Gabbynaru said:

They're playing the wrong game then. I really don't see the need to make this game exactly like all other games on the market. Like, what's the point of turning every single game into the exact same one that they've been playing for years? Cause I see none, other than utter stupidity.

Sometimes I just hate how everyone wants to turn the game into "le Dork Soulz of X" just because.

[bibmobello]

I have' never seen DE playing something over level 30. They had 7 years to balance the game and they instead transformed a strategical shooter into a no brain horde shooter.

I don't understand what's the problem to having a level selector to start from level over 100, the only problem is they don't want because this is a casual game and the only point is to collect stuff. And no this should not be a dark soul like game (considering Dark soul is not even an hardcore game) but not a click a random button game neither.

[Madway7]

1 hour ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Wait, too easy? wasn't Rebecca struggling with Lv40 enemies in Disruption beta?

She also talks a lot during streams and tries to keep certain talking points in mind, along with having to keep track of time. Both on Devstreams and Prime Time

While her builds are usually bad, which contributes to that. She also has a lot on her mind while playing in streams.

[Cubewano]

3 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

They're playing the wrong game then. I really don't see the need to make this game exactly like all other games on the market. Like, what's the point of turning every single game into the exact same one that they've been playing for years? Cause I see none, other than utter stupidity.

Seriously, these threads and this line of thinking is the exact same as the threads asking for Warframe to become a MOBA, Hero Shooter or Battle Royale. People coming from game X want Warframe to become game X, even though they already have game X and will likely go back to game X even if Warframe does give in and follow in the footsteps of game X. Why? Is creativity, innovation and uniqueness so hated in this world that Warframe is somehow a cardinal sin? Cause F me if these threads don't make it look like it is.

Warframe has every right to exist in this form, as a power fantasy, and if people don't like it and want it to be like a different game... good, but they should play that other game. Because just as that other game is their fun, and y'all defend this pointless homogenization of gaming, Warframe as it is is my kind of fun, and I will defend it's uniqueness.

I didn't complain when Sekiro wasn't to my tastes, why do you complain when Warframe isn't to yours?

That isn't for you to dictate though, and everyone has a right to air their wants for the games direction. I also cannot agree in the least than making Warframe balanced would somehow rob it of its identity, Warframe has a wealth of attributes that make it the entity it is, least of all being the ability to immediately invalidate all play, ranging from its unique art style to its narrative to its marvelous dev team to its mobility style and so much more, Warframe was lauded for the entity it was long before it became as broken as it is today, and it would stay as such with or without it. 

Anything outside that is just harsh exaggeration if not just flat out misrepresentation of the views of most people I've interacted with on the matter of this games balance, nobody wants this game to change what it is, they still want the fast paced horde shooting combat, they still want this rich roster of class options and a mountain guns to play with, slinging about the map like some over active speedster on their tenth cup of coffee for the day, they just want it to be balanced so those aspects can be better felt and none of that makes Warframe less Warframe. I've been around this game for a long time and I've experienced it in a range of balance states, from slower to faster paces of combat, and at no point did this game ever wind up feeling any less than itself, or any more like some other game because of it, and it's a hideous disservice to all the creative work that goes into this game to say something as sparse as a handful of numerical scales controls the whole of what makes this game what it is. Warframe is so much more than just if you can one shot a room or not.  

[Cubewano]

22 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Sometimes I just hate how everyone wants to turn the game into "le Dork Soulz of X" just because.

Where did anyone say they wanted Warframe to become dark souls? 

[VanFanel1980mx]

Just now, Cubewano said:

Where did anyone say they wanted Warframe to become dark souls? 

Figuratively speaking of course, meme term for "le hardcore difficult game" nowadays.

[trst]

30 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

They're playing the wrong game then. I really don't see the need to make this game exactly like all other games on the market. Like, what's the point of turning every single game into the exact same one that they've been playing for years? Cause I see none, other than utter stupidity.

Seriously, these threads and this line of thinking is the exact same as the threads asking for Warframe to become a MOBA, Hero Shooter or Battle Royale. People coming from game X want Warframe to become game X, even though they already have game X and will likely go back to game X even if Warframe does give in and follow in the footsteps of game X. Why? Is creativity, innovation and uniqueness so hated in this world that Warframe is somehow a cardinal sin? Cause F me if these threads don't make it look like it is.

Warframe has every right to exist in this form, as a power fantasy, and if people don't like it and want it to be like a different game... good, but they should play that other game. Because just as that other game is their fun, and y'all defend this pointless homogenization of gaming, Warframe as it is is my kind of fun, and I will defend it's uniqueness.

I didn't complain when Sekiro wasn't to my tastes, why do you complain when Warframe isn't to yours?

Except for players that have been here long enough this was that exact game. There used to be a degree of challenge that required some thought put into one's build and team comp that has long since been taken from us with years of powercreep and a lack of more difficult encounters.

Then there are those who enjoyed the struggle and challenges of Warframe's early game and now having all the game's gear and content available to them are required to arbitrarily restrict the gear they can use and are often forced to play solo to avoid others soloing content for them. The game they want is already here but gets spoiled by content not scaling to even half of our gear.

Warframe was slowly made into the sci-fi themed cookie clicker it is now and many players have been protesting this change as it happened and still want the game to go back to how it was. Or at the very least be adapted to accommodate how absurdly overpowered we've slowly become.

Edited October 7, 2019 by trst

[Jarriaga]

18 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

They're playing the wrong game then. I really don't see the need to make this game exactly like all other games on the market. Like, what's the point of turning every single game into the exact same one that they've been playing for years? Cause I see none, other than utter stupidity.

Seriously, these threads and this line of thinking is the exact same as the threads asking for Warframe to become a MOBA, Hero Shooter or Battle Royale. People coming from game X want Warframe to become game X, even though they already have game X and will likely go back to game X even if Warframe does give in and follow in the footsteps of game X. Why? Is creativity, innovation and uniqueness so hated in this world that Warframe is somehow a cardinal sin? Cause F me if these threads don't make it look like it is.

Warframe has every right to exist in this form, as a power fantasy, and if people don't like it and want it to be like a different game... good, but they should play that other game. Because just as that other game is their fun, and y'all defend this pointless homogenization of gaming, Warframe as it is is my kind of fun, and I will defend it's uniqueness.

I didn't complain when Sekiro wasn't to my tastes, why do you complain when Warframe isn't to yours?

That is an extreme strawman. And by the same token, if we take the "power fantasy" argument to its extreme logical conclusion with no regards to engagement or growth then I should have had all of that within 10 minutes of starting the game, which is equally as stupid.

You do not need to come from other games in order to recognize there's a moment in the game in which you hit a progression brick wall. As @(PS4)Mono-Pop pointed out the game felt a lot more rewarding and engaging at the beginning. Looking back, when I started the game, it was a lot more difficult. I even played stealth with Excal to avoid getting damaged because with my Endo reserves and credits I was a soft target. I had not invested in forma or catalysts either because I had no plat and I wasn't buying yet because I didn't feel invested-enough into the game's world until I completed the Second Dream.

It felt more like a power fantasy to me because I was struggling and succeeding. I got my ass handed over to me by a few specters. I could not complete defense missions on my own. It was a different and more satisfying experience when I didn't even have a maxed-out Vitality in my arsenal.

Then I started getting enough Endo to max-out my mods. Then I started getting Primed mods. Then I started adding 6 Forma to my frames. Then I got Rivens. Then I got corrupted mods. Then I got Arcanes. Then I got the Umbra set...... But the rest of the game didn't scale with me. I didn't need to come from another game to see that, because I was enjoying the game and felt appropriately challenged up until this point.

Less effort for the same result is objectively more powerful, you are right there and I'm not going to argue that, but the end result is having "that much power" is boredom because your growth is not paired with something that makes you feel you've grown and that you are powerful. What you feel instead is automation because engagement decreased.

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Figuratively speaking of course, meme term for "le hardcore difficult game" nowadays.

Where did people say they wanted Warframe to become a hardcore difficulty game? 

[VanFanel1980mx]

5 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Where did people say they wanted Warframe to become a hardcore difficulty game? 

People keep asking for tougher enemies (read: bullet sponges.)

[MPonder]

Lowering how fast you kill stuff won't make the difficult harder, just more boring, they would need to redo the enemies, with a better AI, with a fun fight, and lower the number of mobs in exchange.

[Zekkii]

5 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

People keep asking for tougher enemies (read: bullet sponges.)

Bullet sponge: survives more than one hit from literally anything?

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

People keep asking for tougher enemies (read: bullet sponges.)

So you conflate enemies being tougher full stop with hardcore difficulty? 

[VanFanel1980mx]

Just now, Cubewano said:

So you conflate enemies being tougher full stop with hardcore difficulty? 

Their words, not mine plus DE's bandaid implementations, not mine.

Edited October 7, 2019 by VanFanel1980mx

[MPonder]

Let the brain dead grind be what it is, would be too much work on it to put some difficult, give us some good boss fights or new fun mob enemies.

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Lowering how fast you kill stuff won't make the difficult harder, just more boring, they would need to redo the enemies, with a better AI, with a fun fight, and lower the number of mobs in exchange.

The ai in this game isn't actually as dumb as we think it is, I remember a thread some time ago that got a lot of traction suggestion ai improvements to enemies to make them more engaging and ironically over half the suggestions were actually already in the game but just not noticeable because of how quickly we dispatch of our enemies. Without giving enemy npcs time to respond no amount of intelligent ai is going to create a more engaging combat experience, not that it is highly necessary in a horde shooter since the hordes themselves are supposed to be the difficulty modifier/engagement, but we've made all of that so incredibly redundant with how quick and to such high ranges we are able to dispatch all enemies that they can't provide much of anything. Lowering our ttk would absolutely improve the difficulty/engagement of the game because quite simply our current rate doesn't allow for enemies to even have a chance to respond presently with any tools to create a form of difficulty/engagement.  

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Their words, not mine plus DE's bandaid implementations, not mine.

Did they use your account to make the responses you've been giving me? Because those very much seem like your words being presented.