Catchmoon is being nerfed...

[George_PPS]

3 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Lets talk again when the concept of outliers is familiar to you.

Metas are supposed to be outliners. Or you prefer all weapons to work similarly? 

[ShogunGunshow]

2 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

Lazy. Bandaid solution to a greater issue. Just like most things in warframe.

Could it be that the other pistols are absolute trash in comparison? Nooooo!

Yes, let's buff 100+ secondaries instead of nerfing one that's clearly above the power curve.

Because that's totally reasonable.

[EmailSoup]

I think that most of you are forgetting that the catchmoon isn't being nerfed solely because it is being used too often. That is one of the reasons, yes, but not the only reason. The catchmoon has been known to be extremely powerful for a while now. It's not a secret. They've held off on nerfing it for a long time. The playerbase percentage that uses the catchmoon is just further evidence that the thing is so stupidly powerful that using anything else is a massive disadvantage. It has come to the point where it's been in such an obviously absurdly powerful state for so long, that it can no longer be ignored.

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by EmailSoup

[prodi1600]

Its laughable the amount of complaints about the nerf, at the same time complaints about the game being too easy, the elephant in the room here ts that the weapon its broken and need changes.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

Serious answer: Releasing a feature or gun or whatever, monitoring its use, and then patching it is literally how you test things in a game. This is literally how games are made. 

Sure, but  releasing a feature, monitoring its use, and then patching it promptly has a far better chance of inspiring confidence in a developer's judgement.  

Better late than never, usually.  But timely beats both.

[toafarmer]

On 2019-10-24 at 8:25 PM, Psianide73 said:

...due to 50% of the playerbase using it.

Discuss.

Edit... I'm not bothered, I favour diversity/playing things for fun.

wellcome to WF. anything good/fun will eventually get nerfed.

[Spookzqi]

DE recipe: You love it? We nerf it!

[Laosduude]

After you spend 1000+ hours in this game, of course the meta is to find the best room clearing methods, then mid tier players will follow such metas of old players who already grind through 100% of the content aka MR 27. The Brakk when it first came out followed the same story as this Catchmoon debacle, bandaged with a dispo 4 riven bandage system to power creep.

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Sure, but  releasing a feature, monitoring its use, and then patching it promptly has a far better chance of inspiring confidence in a developer's judgement.  

Better late than never, usually.  But timely beats both.

The lateness of this nerf is a very fair criticism. 

In hindsight, though, all those Catchmoon riven nerfs might have been an attempt to balance the guns usage stats. Maybe it didn’t work as well as they hoped, so nerfing the gun itself had to finally be done.

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

The lateness of this nerf is a very fair criticism. 

In hindsight, though, all those Catchmoon riven nerfs might have been an attempt to balance the guns usage stats. Maybe it didn’t work as well as they hoped, so nerfing the gun itself had to finally be done.

I'm sure you're right, but that doesn't exactly inspire confidence either.  Rivens are a related but obviously separate issue.   If nothing else, disposition balancing has zero effect on all the people using these weapons without rivens.   I feel like it's a way to shirk or backburner  the essential problem...while producing other problems  Address the real problem first, and maybe disposition doesn't need to get hit so hard.

[KingGladiator88]

4 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Yes, let's buff 100+ secondaries instead of nerfing one that's clearly above the power curve.

Because that's totally reasonable.

maybe you dont understand how these kinds of video games work, but you will ALWAYS have 1-5 weapons or so everyone uses.

What other secondary can be properly used to take on sortie level missions reliably? It isn't that the catchmoon is over the power curve, its that the other ones are far too below the curve to bother using.

 

Here go to https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Secondary_Weapons and tell me, what weapons here are useful for running in sorties? They need to have high DPS, they need to have good ammo economy, and since warframe is a horde looter shooter, AOE, rapid fire, and punch through are preferred.

 

Would you recommend I build the bronco? How about the Seer? Maybe the Furis or Ballistica?

 

 

[XaoGarrent]

DE needs to stop basing their logic on usage statistics.

...That isn't to say the Catchmoon isn't over performing, but the degree by which it is, is much lower than the 50% should suggest. They're going to over nerf because they don't understand the bandwagoning fallacy, and by extension the nature of bandwagoning being, in itself, highly irrational.

Everyone is just going to rotate to different setups and loadouts, and an even more stagnant, limited meta will emerge, because the nerf doesn't actually address anything fundamental. DE doesn't really seem to understand *why* certain weapons frames and loadouts see the kind of use they do.

[StarlightEmperor]

I use the Catchmoon because it's the only secondary I have currently that keeps me alive in Sorties and other high-tier missions. Sure, It's insanely powerful, but sometimes you need a powerful weapon as a last resort to survive. I've tried out quite a few other secondary weapons, and Catchmoon is one of the only ones I've used so far that has actually worked for me in a way that makes me want to keep it after ranking it up. It's my go-to for all sorties because it doesn't take me forever to wittle an enemy's health down, unlike others I've used. This nerf affects me quite a bit.

[Laosduude]

> "Hey guys we're gonna nerf said weapon because it's way too popular! No, no, don't look at those other secondaries, enemy scaling, and don't worry, when the popularity drops down, we'll use our best logistics to change its riven disposition because we love band-aid solutions to our never-ending power creep!"

Brakk, Tonkor, Simulor, and now Catchmoon. Who will be the next victim? 

🙂

[BL4CKN0ISE]

3 minutes ago, Pyr0Knet1c said:

I use the Catchmoon because it's the only secondary I have currently that keeps me alive in Sorties and other high-tier missions. Sure, It's insanely powerful, but sometimes you need a powerful weapon as a last resort to survive. I've tried out quite a few other secondary weapons, and Catchmoon is one of the only ones I've used so far that has actually worked for me in a way that makes me want to keep it after ranking it up. It's my go-to for all sorties because it doesn't take me forever to wittle an enemy's health down, unlike others I've used. This nerf affects me quite a bit.

Build any of the other 3 Kitguns.

I get why people love the Catchmoon. I love it too. It's super strong, but just like Zaws, every single Kitgun is strong. Before modular weapons, there were other crazy powerful weapons too and there still are.

This nerf will affect anyone who used the Catchmoon as their main Secondary, but it might get people to check out the other three Kitguns or another great secondary. I got a Riven for a Gaze and it was awesome because it actually got me to build one. Now it's my favorite, and I use it for enemies much higher than Sortie3 level. 

5 hours ago, EmailSoup said:

I think that most of you are forgetting that the catchmoon isn't being nerfed solely because it is being used too often. That is one of the reasons, yes, but not the only reason. The catchmoon has been known to be extremely powerful for a while now. It's not a secret. They've held off on nerfing it for a long time. The playerbase percentage that uses the catchmoon is just further evidence that the thing is so stupidly powerful that using anything else is a massive disadvantage. It has come to the point where it's been in such an obviously absurdly powerful state for so long, that it can no longer be ignored.

 

Incorrect. It's almost 100% about usage data. DE has created how many Secondaries? Players only want to use one. Devs never want that. Every single game that considers balance always focuses on stats. 

Notice how they never actually talked about or showed off how powerful it is. It doesn't matter. The list of weapons would be too long if that was their focus. It's about the unbalance of usage. Obviously usage is connected to it being strong, but there are weapons that are just as strong. People just don't care, but DE wants to change that. This nerf is basically telling players to maybe try something else for once. I can't believe how many people hopped on the bandwagon. It's problematic for a game like this.

[XaoGarrent]

2 hours ago, KingGladiator88 said:

Here go to https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Secondary_Weapons and tell me, what weapons here are useful for running in sorties? They need to have high DPS, they need to have good ammo economy, and since warframe is a horde looter shooter, AOE, rapid fire, and punch through are preferred.

Oh hey, this is the exact sort of understanding I'm talking about. Well, it's a good chunk of the picture, anyway, maybe a bit oversimplified, but it gets all the basics correct so it shows again that for whatever reason some of the players seem to get the game better than the devs do.

The horde shooter bit is what's really important here. It's the crux of why the Catchmoon caught on to begin with, and outside of the normal irrationality, it's part of what's causing the bandwagoning effect. It's probably more important to this issue than anything else in this post.

Warframe has a problem with secondary weapons in that the majority of them are good for single target DPS, or small AoE at best. Nnnnnooot really the right set of stats for eidolon killing, but far more suitable for your run of the mill mission. ...Except very, very rarely do you run into a hard target that can't be burnt down by an AoE weapon, because as DE increased the number of enemies we fight, they never bothered to add new and beefier "special" enemies.

That would require they design enemies with custom AI, that can do more than just run up to you and start shooting, and walk a thin line between obnoxious meatshield and dying too easily to weaknesses- This in itself is a problem that is caused by elemental weaknesses and resistances being far too high by the way.

The overall result is that single target weapons really aren't suitable to keep pace with the blazing fast flood of enemies that assault the player, and at the same time have almost no real use case for taking down a single, priority target. Demolysts are a great example of a use case, I find myself pulling out a high damage hiscan secondary far more frequently just because of how dependable it is at burning them down. 

This isn't a problem with Catchmoon specifically, this is a problem with the design of the entire game. Catchmoon just sticks out like a sore thumb, because it's one of the few secondaries that does what it does, and it does that thing exceptionally well. The result is nerfing the Catchmoon will only nudge players towards the remaining few good AoE secondaries, and greatly intensify the AoE primary meta, forcing even more people into using the Plasmor/Fulmin/Acceltra/Tonkor/Phantasma, etc. Which are all going to end up under the nerf bat one by one... This in turn will cause a nerf spiral that will result in AoE frames becoming even more meta, and "gunframes," which at the moment are still competitive with weapons like the Catchmoon, will completely fall off the radar.

All of this trouble could be avoided by giving the really outstanding nails a slap or two on the wrist, and instead of going on a nerf fest that's just going to screw up the balance of the game everywhere else... Introduce new, much more dangerous and durable special enemies into each faction that actually give you a reason to pack both a strong single target gun, and something for dealing with crowds.

Oh, and stop introducing weapons that are more powerful than the previous batch for crying out loud. There's enough diversity in weapons and frames now that there shouldn't be a reason to allow things to power creep for the sake of making mechanics rewarding. Use something like the Phantasma as a baseline and just stick to that general power level, fixing the problems that exist on the other end of the balance symmetry (namely armor scaling being too high, enemy weaknesses/resistances being too high, enemy health values actually being too low, the general lack of special "boss" type spawns)...

Demolysts were a good idea, do more stuff like that, buff Noxes with new special attacks, make maniacs more dangerous, give scramblers more aggressive and unpredictable AI, more bigass mecha spiders showing up randomly, etc. Try to avoid making the enemies cheap or giant sacks of meat, but... At the same time, remember we all can pick each other up, and have three free revives, if not more from Arcanes.

Edited October 26, 2019 by XaoGarrent
I swear I'm not drunk

[BL4CKN0ISE]

2 hours ago, KingGladiator88 said:

Here go to https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Secondary_Weapons and tell me, what weapons here are useful for running in sorties? They need to have high DPS, they need to have good ammo economy, and since warframe is a horde looter shooter, AOE, rapid fire, and punch through are preferred.

 

Would you recommend I build the bronco? How about the Seer? Maybe the Furis or Ballistica?

 

 

Because nobody did Sorties before the Catchmoon? Or are you saying DE changed Sorties just to make the Catchmoon the only viable Secondary? 

Wait...are you trying to tell me the Sniper only Sortie I just did was really a Catchmoon only Sortie and I didn't actually beat the mission? 

[XaoGarrent]

7 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Because nobody did Sorties before the Catchmoon? Or are you saying DE changed Sorties just to make the Catchmoon the only viable Secondary? 

Wait...are you trying to tell me the Sniper only Sortie I just did was really a Catchmoon only Sortie and I didn't actually beat the mission? 

A LOT in this game has changed since the days prior to AoE weapons being meta. You don't understand the argument: Nobody's saying you can't sortie without Catchmoon. But also, nobody is saying you even need a secondary period. This kind of whack a mole balancing will just make a moving target that will, eventually, over a long enough time, throw the entire player side of the game's balance and design out of whack. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened either.

This is just one of many reasons you don't balance based off usage statistics. It's not just argumentum ad populum, it's entirely ineffective if not outright counterproductive to bringing the entire game into better balance with itself. It's several layers of myopia one atop the other.

In balance, literally everything is connected to everything else by a six degrees of separation effect. NEVER forget that. Any change, no matter how small or large, can ripple across the entire game's meta... ...Or accomplish absolutely nothing, depending on what's waiting to take over afterwards. People need to stop balancing in a vacuum.

Edited October 26, 2019 by XaoGarrent

[Teoarrk]

This nerf was inevitable. It will be less useful for profit taker and Orb mother, but tileset uses will not be affected that much.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

A LOT in this game has changed since the days prior to AoE weapons being meta. You don't understand the argument: Nobody's saying you can't sortie without Catchmoon. But also, nobody is saying you even need a secondary period. This kind of whack a mole balancing will just make a moving target that will, eventually, over a long enough time, throw the entire player side of the game's balance and design out of whack. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened either.

This is just one of many reasons you don't balance based off usage statistics. It's not just argumentum ad populum, it's an entirely ineffective if not outright counterproductive effort to bringing the entire game into better balance with itself. It's several layers of myopia one atop the other.

This is the part of the argument I don't understand. Many frames do a ton of AoE with abilities. Many weapons do a ton of AoE. Why do people think the Catchmoon is the only AoE weapon? Why do players even think the Catchmoon is the only AoE Kitgun? How many missions actually require killing a ton of enemies? I'm definitely confused. 

People get so dramatic about stuff like this. Just like the Melee changes. Why are people acting like anything will change? I NEVER use the Catchmoon anymore. I'm proof that you shouldn't care. I rarely play content with low level enemies. I'm confused about the argument, but I'm not confused about reality. I just don't think it matters. There is only one mission that requires AoE, and if you're using guns for that mission, that's on you. AoE is nice, but just not needed all the time. Sometimes killing is just not needed at all. 

Get a simulacrum key and get creative. DE is trying to help guide you guys. Some players only look to others and end up getting stuck on one thing. There's more out there. You balance based on usage when players pick the obvious/easy solution. There are different types of balance. This is not about power because there are more powerful weapons. 

Players are just using the same weapon, so DE is trying to change that. I understand why some people might have a problem with that, but I'm just saying why I don't. Just look at the arguments. Players act like the Catchmoon is needed to play Warframe and that's actually kinda sad. That's the problem with weapons like the Catchmoon. People just get kinda weird about it. It's great, but not the best and it will probably still be great after the nerfs. 

[Cerebrophage]

On 2019-10-24 at 4:25 PM, Psianide73 said:

...due to 50% of the playerbase using it.

Discuss.

Edit... I'm not bothered, I favour diversity/playing things for fun.

Praise God!

1. I enjoy weapon diversity
2. the weapon is blinding
3. shake up the meta

[EmailSoup]

55 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Incorrect. It's almost 100% about usage data. DE has created how many Secondaries? Players only want to use one. Devs never want that. Every single game that considers balance always focuses on stats. 

Notice how they never actually talked about or showed off how powerful it is. It doesn't matter. The list of weapons would be too long if that was their focus. It's about the unbalance of usage. Obviously usage is connected to it being strong, but there are weapons that are just as strong. People just don't care, but DE wants to change that. This nerf is basically telling players to maybe try something else for once. I can't believe how many people hopped on the bandwagon. It's problematic for a game like this.                             

I agree that there may be weapons that are just as strong (or even stronger) but the catchmoon is about ease of usage and the observed results. They didn't need to show or talk about how powerful it is. Anybody that has picked up a catchmoon sees how large the projectile is and how much output it has for the little effort involved. I don't think either party would have seen benefit from wasting time on stream watching a demonstration for a weapon everyone knows is insanely powerful. They literally didn't need to show it and people already knew. I'm not saying that there aren't alternative options that are just as viable, I'm saying that the catchmoon is one of the more easier weapons to use effectively, and of course is extremely effective too. When something is being used to that extreme extent, there is a rift in the balance and something needs to be done about it. Is the nerf about usage data? Yes, I already agreed upon that.

But I won't agree that it's almost 100% about usage data. It wouldn't be used as much as it is if it wasn't so powerful and so easy to play with. So what if an extremely powerful option is nerfed. There are other options, as you've said. Less people are going to use the catchmoon now because it won't be as powerful as it once was. It might have been about usage data, but it definitely is also about nerfing a weapon that is too easy and too powerful. They've shown in the past that they don't like simplistic, lazy playstyles that yield results that are just as powerful as other playstyles. If anything, I think it's more about that than the usage data. The usage data was provided to bring into focus just how insane the equip rate has gotten on the thing.

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

Right now I only really use mine during the exploiter orb and use some of the other crazy secondarys for everything else. But if overall usage is the reason for the nerf I'm going to start using it more to give DE the middle finger so to speak.

Edited October 26, 2019 by (PS4)deathwolfclaw666
edit

[Typhonatos]

14 minutes ago, Cerebrophage said:

Praise God!

1. I enjoy weapon diversity
2. the weapon is blinding
3. shake up the meta

1. I too enjoy tons of weapons that aren't worth the time and only for the mastery..What does your enjoyment of weapon diversity have to do with what others are using? It's not stoping you from using what weapons you want too.

2. I can agree with that part, but that just visual and nothing to do with nerfing

3. Why so they can shake up the next one and the next one and so on? You know what? Really shouldn't be meta, if more of the giant of pool of weapons would actuality be usefully/not niche as hell then we wouldn't have to worry about it. Yeah I know, and after reading a bunch of post, you guys really hate seeing lots of thing die at once, need to drag it out as long as possible. I hate that mentally of longer it takes the more challenging! 

I haven't used catchmmon in awhile. Yet it still one a few secondaries that seem worth it. 

What is with people here and the over use of the word lazy? If you use X build you're lazy! How does that even make sense? You're being way too efficient and how much/fast you are killing stuff! How dare you! We need to only be able to kill one mob at a time and push those boosters to make up for it!  Do you guys go up to modern farmers and whine they are producing crops to "lazily"? That they need to be nerfed  of their tractors, tillers, etc and be only able farm a few acres of land with a horse?  Watch most of it die before harvest time? If its a form of "You're lazy cause you didn't think about you build!" then that's all kind of wrong. Or do think every weapon needs to be maxed forma to be good? I don't go with meta cause I like too, hell I hate the word even, its because most other things are just not worth it. I understand the need for some trash weapons, as a sense of progression, but not as many that exist. 

DE seems to be hell bent on slowing to much down at one time. Between this, melee changes, how the new kuva thing works. But hey we have the cash shop to make up the difference!.

[Vay_Kek]

Catchmoon is a great example of how you cannot possibly make everyone happy. People were complaining about power creep for years and here are we, with Catchmoon - literal manifestation of power creep in flesh being nerfed and people are still complaining. Honestly, Im all for the catchmoon being nerfed: it's just not right when almost 50% of the player base uses only one specific weapon when there are so many weapons with unique mechanics collecting dust.