I think condition overload was nerfed the wrong way

[lukinu_u]

Reading the future changes to melee, there are a lot of thing that are hard to judge without testing but some are just number tweaks and stuff that can easily be calculated and discussed about. One of them is how Condition Overload will be changed.
For people who didn't read about the change, Condition Overload is changing from +60% to +120% but with a cap of 3 status, so 2.2^3 which result to x10.648 multilier.

The mod definitely needed a nerf, but I don't think it's the right way. With these changes, the mod will no longer reach astronomic number above x30 multiplier, but considering how easy it is to get 3 status on a target and how strong a x10.65 damage multiplier, the mod will no longer require status oriented builds to work and remain a mandatory mod, even more than Pressure Point (and its Primed/Umbral variant) which only grant a x2.2 to x2.65 multiplier.
Basically, it become another mandatory damage mod instead of being situationnal and rewarding the player for using status good enough to benefit from the mod.

To solve this, my idea is to change Condition Overload to act as a weaker variation of Pressure Point that is work using only with status build. To achieve this result the changes I would make are :

• Condition Overload effect now stack additively with other base damages mods to discourage using both.
• The buff is reduced from +60% to +55% and now stack additively instead of the current 1.6^number of status formula. This mean the mod equal Primed Pressure Point at 3 status with a +165% damage buff and goes beyond up to +715% (x8.15) with all 13 status effects.
  As the buff is additive, it also mean each additionnal status become less and less effective as opposite to how it works right now. 0 to 1 status is a 55% increase, 1 to 2 status is a 35.5% increase, 2 to 3 status is a 26.2% increase, etc... it make the mod useful but automatically balance itself at higher number of status.

The main problem I see with these changes is the fact it encourage using only of one Condition Overload or Pressure Point (Primed/Umbral), which free a mod slot which benefit a lot to hybrid crit/status build that could be unwanted, but exept this, I think it could make melee a lot more balanced and avoid making Condition Overload another mandatory thing like damages and multishot mods.

Let me know if you see any alternative or tweaks in number that would better work, or have completely different opinion about it, it's intersting too !

[(PSN)Ragology]

I think math is important.

[2old4gamez]

Maybe wait until we have the update before commenting on changes?

Just a thought.

[Xzorn]

Math aside the 3 status limit is detrimental to the unique synergy Condition Overload brought to the game through multiple aspects like Elemental frames, dual wielding, team play stacking, ect. It was far too powerful but I'd like to keep that interesting synergy it had.... Dual wield will prolly die thanks to a 3 status limit.

[taiiat]

if you made it an Additive Bonus, you'd need to make the value on the Mod stronger, not weaker. otherwise it will not increase Damage very much unless you replace Pressure Point with it and then find something else to Multiply your Damage in a Multiplicative fashion instead.

 

 

and yes i'll reiterate in as many places as possible that capped to 3 Status Effects means Condition Overload is literally EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE the Mod.
instead of a Mod that creates actual Synergy and allows Players to use Skill, turned into an AFKFarming Mod.

probably a metaphor for almost all balance/design changes in the past 2 years. turn everything into an AFKFarming tool, while complaining that people are playing in an AFK fashion. maybe if the game stopped punishing Players for not being AFK, and incentivized Skill? nah, that's just crazy talk.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 10 minutes, taiiat a dit :

if you made it an Additive Bonus, you'd need to make the value on the Mod stronger, not weaker. otherwise it will not increase Damage very much unless you replace Pressure Point with it and then find something else to Multiply your Damage in a Multiplicative fashion instead.

Using it as a situationnal replacement of Pressure Point is the idea.
About the stats, I initially though it would need a higher bonus if it's not mutliplicative, but currently the number are just too high. Is there any reason for a single mod to add a x10.65 damage stacking multiplicatively with everything else, while other mods barely reach x2.65 and the strongest warframe buff witht Umbral build doesn't go beyond x8.50 ? And it's even worse since most people consider that x10.65 cap as a hard nerf because it's currently able to reach x1152.92, stacking multiplicatively with base damage mods and warframe buffs !

It's understandable that people want the mod to keep similar numbers, but it's way too strong right now, compared to other options we have and using it isn't even a choice.

 

Il y a 2 heures, 2old4gamez a dit :

Maybe wait until we have the update before commenting on changes?

Just a thought.

That's right for most of stuff, but this is just number tweaks on stuff we can already calculate and test ingame, so no need to wait for the update.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

Using it as a situationnal replacement of Pressure Point is the idea.

Is there any reason for a single mod to add a x10.65 damage

but then it isn't Modding choices to be made, just something you use always if you're going to face Enemies higher than what Level you'd Kill Enemies in 1-3 hits with Pressure Point.

the reason is that it's currently one of if not the single most Mechanically complex Damage Mod in the game. the Mod incentivizes Players mixing their tools and being active - while almost every other Mod does not(even most of the Shadow Debt Mods are pretty thin on Mechanics). if we want to make Modding better, Mods that aren't just passive Stats need to be significantly better than the passive ones.

Edited October 26, 2019 by taiiat

[Kimimoto]

On 2019-10-25 at 8:55 PM, 2old4gamez said:

Maybe wait until we have the update before commenting on changes?

Just a thought.

That's a trash way to try and silence discussion. Here's another thought, the feedback forums are here for a reason, and it's not so white knights can try to shut down all the threads.

[Miyabi-sama]

В 26.10.2019 в 03:13, lukinu_u сказал:

Let me know if you see any alternative or tweaks in number that would better work, or have completely different opinion about it, it's intersting too !

Maybe that was a goal they wanted to achieve with this nerf? Ez procs + ez damage?

В 26.10.2019 в 04:59, Xzorn сказал:

Math aside the 3 status limit is detrimental to the unique synergy Condition Overload brought to the game through multiple aspects like Elemental frames, dual wielding, team play stacking, ect. It was far too powerful but I'd like to keep that interesting synergy it had.... Dual wield will prolly die thanks to a 3 status limit.

And here I am EZ Loki Zakti/Glaive oneshotting crowds with barely 3-4 procs up to 60 arbitrash minutes (it's boring for me to stay longer).

I do respect endurance runners, seems devs don't care. Pretty much never did.

[Sharkgoblin]

i liked my machete, condition overload (and a riven) made it from a complete waste of a weapon slot, to an ok wep

somehow i got another machete mod so i even upgraded the regular machete

did machetes deserve to have condition overload nerfed

hell no

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Sharkgoblin

[Xzorn]

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

And here I am EZ Loki Zakti/Glaive oneshotting crowds with barely 3-4 procs up to 60 arbitrash minutes (it's boring for me to stay longer).

I do respect endurance runners, seems devs don't care. Pretty much never did.

 

Eh, we're pretty much an endangered species at this point. I've been an Admin for a popular Endurance runner community like 3-4 years. The Discord is nearly dead these days and there's usually avg 1,500 online at all times, 7,000 total. Just no one talking outside how bad the game has become and cracking jokes about it.

It's was never really about the time spent in a mission. Least for most of us. It was more about finding that sweet spot of challenge and a place to really push builds, knowledge of the game and put all those mods, Arcanes and such to good use.

I'm not sure if they cared at some point or not. They still give out mixed signals with Event Leaderboards engraving player names in Warframe history well as the weekly leaderboards. Why do these things exist. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Xzorn

[Miyabi-sama]

10 минут назад, Xzorn сказал:

 

Eh, we're pretty much an endangered species at this point. I've been an Admin for a popular Endurance runner community like 3-4 years. The Discord is nearly dead these days and there's usually avg 1,500 online at all times, 7,000 total. Just no one talking outside how bad the game has become and cracking jokes about it.

It's was never really about the time spent in a mission. Least for most of us. It was more about finding that sweet spot of challenge and a place to really push builds, knowledge of the game and put all those mods, Arcanes and such to good use.

Honestly, couple of years ago i'd drowned in your community and became a endurabro, but was been "polishing my builds" before real challenging runs, and here I am not having time to actually use those builds, damn it.

However, on a topic, 3x120% stacked CO is way more than enough for your average Joe to stay on mission until he succumbs to his sleep.

[BDT_Flames]

is not nerf use naramon and remove this stupid weapon and use Guandao  and no need stupid mod  Condition Obverload and Drifting Contact /Professional player use  school :Naramon  max GL 

[Miyabi-sama]

1 час назад, BDT_Flames сказал:

Professional player use  school :Naramon

How much you get paid, again please?

[Midas]

On 2019-10-25 at 8:13 PM, lukinu_u said:

Reading the future changes to melee, there are a lot of thing that are hard to judge without testing but some are just number tweaks and stuff that can easily be calculated and discussed about. One of them is how Condition Overload will be changed.
For people who didn't read about the change, Condition Overload is changing from +60% to +120% but with a cap of 3 status, so 2.2^3 which result to x10.648 multilier.

The mod definitely needed a nerf, but I don't think it's the right way. With these changes, the mod will no longer reach astronomic number above x30 multiplier, but considering how easy it is to get 3 status on a target and how strong a x10.65 damage multiplier, the mod will no longer require status oriented builds to work and remain a mandatory mod, even more than Pressure Point (and its Primed/Umbral variant) which only grant a x2.2 to x2.65 multiplier.
Basically, it become another mandatory damage mod instead of being situationnal and rewarding the player for using status good enough to benefit from the mod.

To solve this, my idea is to change Condition Overload to act as a weaker variation of Pressure Point that is work using only with status build. To achieve this result the changes I would make are :

• Condition Overload effect now stack additively with other base damages mods to discourage using both.
• The buff is reduced from +60% to +55% and now stack additively instead of the current 1.6^number of status formula. This mean the mod equal Primed Pressure Point at 3 status with a +165% damage buff and goes beyond up to +715% (x8.15) with all 13 status effects.
  As the buff is additive, it also mean each additionnal status become less and less effective as opposite to how it works right now. 0 to 1 status is a 55% increase, 1 to 2 status is a 35.5% increase, 2 to 3 status is a 26.2% increase, etc... it make the mod useful but automatically balance itself at higher number of status.

The main problem I see with these changes is the fact it encourage using only of one Condition Overload or Pressure Point (Primed/Umbral), which free a mod slot which benefit a lot to hybrid crit/status build that could be unwanted, but exept this, I think it could make melee a lot more balanced and avoid making Condition Overload another mandatory thing like damages and multishot mods.

Let me know if you see any alternative or tweaks in number that would better work, or have completely different opinion about it, it's intersting too !

i'd prefer total damage like faction mods. Additive damage is so small compared to total damage. I completely agree with your post in the fact exponential multis are a joke on Condition Overload even with 3 statuses.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Midas

[Uhkretor]

On 2019-10-27 at 9:10 PM, BDT_Flames said:

is not nerf use naramon and remove this stupid weapon and use Guandao  and no need stupid mod  Condition Obverload and Drifting Contact /Professional player use  school :Naramon  max GL 

On 2019-10-27 at 10:29 PM, Miyabi-sama said:

How much you get paid, again please?

... I don't even know if what he used was english or googlish... I think it was googlish due to the whole "not makes a F*ING sense" thing... but yeah, @BDT_Flames, share with us how much you're getting paid.

[kapn655321]

On 2019-10-27 at 4:42 AM, Sharkgoblin said:

did machetes deserve to have condition overload nerfed

hell no

Good thing the change to CO isn't coming without a rework of all the melee base damage and effectiveness.

[lukinu_u]

il y a une heure, Midas a dit :

i'd prefer total damage like faction mods. Additive damage is so small compared to total damage.

Lowering the damage is intended, the mod actually need a big nerf to be balanced (and still usable).

[Midas]

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

Lowering the damage is intended, the mod actually need a big nerf to be balanced (and still usable).

I made sure of that nerf lul.

[Miyabi-sama]

1 час назад, Midas сказал:

I made sure of that nerf lul.

I might be an idiot but I've read this whole thread. And partially agree with your point.

[George_PPS]

The current CO provides higher damage potential and requires more weapons synergy and skills and proper builds. 

The new stats destroys all that synergy, requires less skills and also much easier to build. Yet this is the direction of Warframe’s melee system? This is huge nerfing and also taking away the fun and build diversity and weapon synergy all at the same time. 

[Sharkgoblin]

12 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Good thing the change to CO isn't coming without a rework of all the melee base damage and effectiveness.

we'll see 😒

[George_PPS]

16 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Good thing the change to CO isn't coming without a rework of all the melee base damage and effectiveness.

Base number buff of about 300% couldn’t make up the huge nerf of CO’s max damage potential of about 5000%. Most players think we are getting some buff but the math shows that the new melee system will be nerfed to the ground. We are also losing weapon synergy and build diversity in the new system. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by George_PPS

[kapn655321]

3 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Base number buff of about 300% couldn’t make up the huge nerf of CO’s max damage potential of about 5000%. Most players think we are getting some buff but the math shows that the new melee system will be nerfed to the ground. We are also losing weapon synergy and build diversity in the new system. 

The reason we need it is the enemy armor scaling.

We currently have a slim fraction of tools available to go late in the game, and when we do, we're jobbing very specific set ups for CO or memeing strike.
Seriously, options are thin and getting tired.

Yes, the ability to stack up CO has some good interplay and synergy, and it's about the only thing that can yet.
First we fix the weapons, then the enemies, then maybe 2 or 3 mods can go overkill instead of 2 or 3 being critical and essential while the rest are near functionless.
Like cleaning a room, it's gonna look worse before it looks better. I don't want one mod to be the only mod, and neither does DE.

[Miyabi-sama]

1 минуту назад, kapn655321 сказал:

We currently have a slim fraction of tools available to go late in the game

This is wrong.