Weapon exilus slot flaw

[sitfesz]

Dear DE,

 

Please take a good look at this screenshot and tell me why is my weapon build capped at only a 6 capacity exilus mod (if the polarity matches).

Please tell me why am I not allowed to use -recoil, +zoom, -holster speed and any other 6+ capcity mods. Are they too strong?

I have 3 capacity left even with 8 forma'd slots, which means I can equip a 6 capacity mod at best if the polarity matches with the exilus slot.

[torint_man]

That's the point. DE implementing Pexilus is ingenious really, as it's a way for people who really, truly care about a weapon get a little bit more out of it, but in such a way that any sort of power creep has to be earned, or potentially done at a cost or not at all depending on what mod setup the weapon in question has. DE is giving us an extra option for more power while making the overall power creep impact minimal. 

[Aldain]

You have 2 Prime mods, Split Chamber and a Riven stuffed into one gun.

How much more do you actually need for the gun to be considered "good" at this rate?

[sitfesz]

Okay guys, I get it. Take this handful of air and don't complain, it's a gift. Useless, but a gift, so appreciate it.

[GruntBlender]

36 minutes ago, sitfesz said:

Okay guys, I get it. Take this handful of air and don't complain, it's a gift. Useless, but a gift, so appreciate it.

It's not useless, you can equip a non-maxed mod for most of the benefit.

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, torint_man said:

That's the point. DE implementing Pexilus is ingenious really, as it's a way for people who really, truly care about a weapon get a little bit more out of it, but in such a way that any sort of power creep has to be earned, or potentially done at a cost or not at all depending on what mod setup the weapon in question has. DE is giving us an extra option for more power while making the overall power creep impact minimal. 

If the feature is designed to defeat itself, it's bad design by definition.

55 minutes ago, Aldain said:

You have 2 Prime mods, Split Chamber and a Riven stuffed into one gun.

How much more do you actually need for the gun to be considered "good" at this rate?

The Pex slot isn't what makes it "good" or not. That's not the point. This flaw shows how this feature isn't going to provide what it was supposed to.

 

[Test-995]

You don't have to spend 20pt, that's a good thing don't you think so?

[torint_man]

13 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

If the feature is designed to defeat itself, it's bad design by definition.

It doesn't defeat itself though. Pexilus isn't necessarily universally applicable, it's just an extra option.

15 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The Pex slot isn't what makes it "good" or not. That's not the point. This flaw shows how this feature isn't going to provide what it was supposed to.

It doesn't need to universally provide what it's "supposed" to provide. It just needs to be an extra option, which it is.

Even with just 3 or 4 (because of the amalgam serration) points, you have plenty of options. The ammo conversion mods just got cheaper, holster speed fits, and you can have other mods which aren't necessarily max rank. This isn't nor should be as simple as "every weapon now has an extra mod". Pexilus has objectively given us more power overall, it's just that you aren't necessarily going to get the max theoretical power out of it in every possible case.

[FrostDragoon]

5 minutes ago, torint_man said:

It doesn't defeat itself though. Pexilus isn't necessarily universally applicable, it's just an extra option.

It doesn't need to universally provide what it's "supposed" to provide. It just needs to be an extra option, which it is.

Even with just 3 or 4 (because of the amalgam serration) points, you have plenty of options. The ammo conversion mods just got cheaper, holster speed fits, and you can have other mods which aren't necessarily max rank. This isn't nor should be as simple as "every weapon now has an extra mod". Pexilus has objectively given us more power overall, it's just that you aren't necessarily going to get the max theoretical power out of it in every possible case.

That's a half-assed way of looking at it, especially if we're supposed grind or pay plat for it. "Just extra" when it doesn't actually give you the full benefit that you should reasonably be able to expect--especially when the OP has forma'd EVERY slot!

Sorry, but you're just wrong on this.

[sitfesz]

Why do you try to justify it?

If it's not a good option, then it shouldn't have been an option at all.

Not like I would die trying to fit these expandable mods into my build, sacrificing straight damage. My options are severely reduced only because I dared to fit the best mods on my base slot.

Are you trying to say weapon exilus mods aren't for utility and we should give up damage in order to use them? We didn't need an exilus slot for that, it was like that just before.

Edited October 31, 2019 by sitfesz

[fr4gb4ll]

DE indeed neglected to think of the capacity limit most people will reach for many weapons, when all slots are already formated and filled with high capacity hungry mods...

those who claim this new slot just an 'optional' one, they are right, we done well even without it - BUT... since this is meant to be a chance for those nifty utility mods that rarely saw any use in a weapon, your argument is beside the point here - for who would readily decrease their weapons firepower just to fit in such an utiliy mod? no one with half a brain - else, we could have done so already without this extra slot...

that said, either the base cap of all weapons should be increased, or maybe better, each used forma on a weapon also increases the total cap usable to +1. even without the doubling effect of a potao, this would be likely enough to fit in any of the current util-mods we have after the weapon has every slot polarized... though, with some weapons, this should better go retrospective if it comes with already polarized slots.

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

I know how DE can solve this problem.

Step 1: Remove rivens from the game.

Annnnd done. Problem solved.

[Avienas]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

You have 2 Prime mods, Split Chamber and a Riven stuffed into one gun.

How much more do you actually need for the gun to be considered "good" at this rate?

Replace Split chamber with Amalgam mod in that sentence, those tend to just be an extra bonus that usually can be ignored. Split chamber is a huge norm, though i feel like d.e. may need to tweak some norm used mod costs so we at the very least have about 5 capacity to work with, so we can cram most standard 9 cost type mods, which would become 5 cost after polarity matching.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Avienas

[Avienas]

9 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

DE indeed neglected to think of the capacity limit most people will reach for many weapons, when all slots are already formated and filled with high capacity hungry mods...

those who claim this new slot just an 'optional' one, they are right, we done well even without it - BUT... since this is meant to be a chance for those nifty utility mods that rarely saw any use in a weapon, your argument is beside the point here - for who would readily decrease their weapons firepower just to fit in such an utiliy mod? no one with half a brain - else, we could have done so already without this extra slot...

that said, either the base cap of all weapons should be increased, or maybe better, each used forma on a weapon also increases the total cap usable to +1. even without the doubling effect of a potao, this would be likely enough to fit in any of the current util-mods we have after the weapon has every slot polarized... though, with some weapons, this should better go retrospective if it comes with already polarized slots.

Plenty of easy methods to deal with the issue:

• Do not use a riven mod for every weapon
• Do not use Amalgam mods unless they are absolutely necessary
• If your using your weapon for status procs instead of extreme raw damage, use Madurai Elemental/Status chance mods over the chunky 11 cost pure damage ones.

Should easily result in plenty of room for say a pyrana prime to have Steady hands in that utility slot, then let a player pop something else in the slot it would normally take up since: Not using recoil reduction on guns like P.Prime is a absolute pain to keep it accurately shooting at what you want to shoot. Especially when you throw in Arcane Pistoleer to revive that glorious fun when the gun used to be glitched.

OTHERWISE, yes, D.E. needs to take the time to trim some capacities, maybe have some lose about 1 in some costs to trim down a bunch of 1 costers in post-polarity applying to greatly save room, i know mods like Split Chamber would certainly benefit from it.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Avienas

[grindbert]

because the largest part of the warframe community, including the devs, which are all casual roleplayers assumes that you lack a chromosome if you actually dare to minmax your gear.

[fr4gb4ll]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

I know how DE can solve this problem.

Step 1: Remove rivens from the game.

Annnnd done. Problem solved.

how about: remove complaining players? that would certainly help too...

i agree that riven mods might have been a concept that wasn't thought through thoroughly (too many damn 'th' here, sorry), and that wouldn't been the first time they did so, but if they would remove it now, all hell would break lose - that i can guarantee you ^^)

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

7 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

how about: remove complaining players? that would certainly help too...

But the who would play the game?

7 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

i agree that riven mods might have been a concept that wasn't thought through thoroughly (too many damn 'th' here, sorry), and that wouldn't been the first time they did so, but if they would remove it now, all hell would break lose - that i can guarantee you ^^)

Hell is other people. We're always in hell, as evidenced by the people who hate rivens, and the ones who love them, spend thousands of plat, then get fantastically anrgy at every disposition change.

The reality is that rivens are just in a constant state of making people angry and fudging up the game.

They're a nice idea in theory. They combat power creep (actual power creep, not what players define it as), in theory anyway. They let "obsolete" weapons serve a purpose by offering a balancing factor. Buuuuut...

RNG. Regular and Prime sharing dispositions despite being disparate in stats and use. The sheer increase in power they offer, not just to skew lesser items up, but also to top tier items that don't need the boost.

They're a nice idea, but poorly implemented to the point that they fail at everything except making OP items OPer to further trivialize content.

And this, ultimately, is another symptom. Rivens are expensive to slot. Remove them and capacity is cleared up.

I mean, how bad does something have to fail before it's worth removing? Rivens are 100% fail, and even spend an inordinate amount of time pissing off the people who actually like them.

Will people freak out if they're removed? Sure, but they're constantly freaking out over them anyway.

[fr4gb4ll]

18 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Plenty of easy methods to deal with the issue:

• Do not use a riven mod for every weapon
• Do not use Amalgam mods unless they are absolutely necessary
• If your using your weapon for status procs instead of extreme raw damage, use Madurai Elemental/Status chance mods over the chunky 11 cost pure damage ones.

tell me again why i shuold bother with exchanging firepower with some utility that, even though would be nice to have, has no real value for combat? like i said: if i would value those utility that much, i could have used it without the need of an extra slot all the time before... or in shore: this argument is beside the point - but if you want to use util-mods instead of a riven, this your own choice - and i'm guessing here, i think you're not fond of riven mods yourself, hence this suggestion.

same goes for amalgam mods, but tbh, those aren't really that much of an cap-eater compared to riven and also have their drawbacks for use already, so not that many use them compared to riven mods (if available to them, ofc).

for proc builds that's pretty obvious - but only a part of our arsenal is for such build... i have many weapons for crit-builds and also those 'raw' damage ones you mentioned and sure won't re-build them just to able to use some nice gadgets in them... sorry, but that isn't really a solution for this issue - the only one so far is: don't use the new slot... and that is also a silly one imo.

[Endorphinz]

DE did make mention that they are aware that weapon capacity is at a premium already, and they think that including a polarity is a proper trade-off, but I strongly disagree.

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, Endorphinz said:

DE did make mention that they are aware that weapon capacity is at a premium already, and they think that including a polarity is a proper trade-off, but I strongly disagree.

I think the best solution is to reduce the base capacity of Serration and Hornet Strike by 4 each, which makes the proper amount of room to include Pex slots while helping new players progress more smoothly.

[Endorphinz]

9 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I think the best solution is to reduce the base capacity of Serration and Hornet Strike by 4 each, which makes the proper amount of room to include Pex slots while helping new players progress more smoothly.

That would be really nice. Maybe reduce elemental damage mods by 2 each, I had suggested this before for 2 reasons:

1, the ice elemental mod used to be 9 for some reason, while other elements were 11, until an update made them 11 across the board. 2, because it would put them on the same growth curve as the dual status/damage elemental mods, which would just be aesthetically pleasing.

[Zebiko]

They are going to be like the warframe exilus slots before adding drift mods, not used. Then DE will fix them after some time and it's going to be good.

[torint_man]

4 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

That's a half-assed way of looking at it, especially if we're supposed grind or pay plat for it. "Just extra" when it doesn't actually give you the full benefit that you should reasonably be able to expect--especially when the OP has forma'd EVERY slot!

Sorry, but you're just wrong on this.

It's an extra option, not  "pay 20p to attach an extra mod for free". If you can't use it, you shouldn't get it.

4 hours ago, sitfesz said:

If it's not a good option, then it shouldn't have been an option at all.

Pexilus is not a universally good option. I would say that it is a good option for the majority of mod builds, it's just that it's not feasible to use 100% of the time. 

4 hours ago, sitfesz said:

Not like I would die trying to fit these expandable mods into my build, sacrificing straight damage. My options are severely reduced only because I dared to fit the best mods on my base slot.

That's a ridiculously bull headed way of looking at it. The "best mods" statement is subjective, and saying an entire mechanic is useless because it isn't useful 100% of the time is, well, not logical. For example, you could use non prime shred and have 5 points free, enough to use stabilizer. What's more valuable to you, 25% fire rate, or -60% recoil? You could even compensate with arcane acceleration. Why is being put in a situation where there are tradeoffs so bad? DE has decided to introduce a mechanic that can potentially induce tradeoffs.

Tradeoffs are something the mod system is severely deficient of. Tradeoffs are good from a game design perspective.

 

[Avienas]

13 minutes ago, torint_man said:

It's an extra option, not  "pay 20p to attach an extra mod for free". If you can't use it, you shouldn't get it.

Pexilus is not a universally good option. I would say that it is a good option for the majority of mod builds, it's just that it's not feasible to use 100% of the time. 

Exactly, its why i leaned mostly to mods like Recoil reduction & Projectile speed as the 2 more critical mods for this new slot, since reload speed (and magazine size?) were pretty much left out cause it affects DPS too much with some guns apparently(*remembers the fact D.E. has drift mods all up in exilus mod slots*).

Granted, this mainly applies to stuff like Lanka & Daikyu and some other guns with a nasty slow projectile speed down-side, with not many guns having the recoil issue, with guns like Pyrana prime being the major except, lacking a recoil reduction makes the thing a pain to use for continuous fire that are longer then .7 or more seconds.

Mutation & Ammo capacity mods are absurdly niche with only the recent Guns that came with Gauss being one of the few batches of weapons that could highly use those particular mods.

13 minutes ago, torint_man said:

That's a ridiculously bull headed way of looking at it. The "best mods" statement is subjective, and saying an entire mechanic is useless because it isn't useful 100% of the time is, well, not logical. For example, you could use non prime shred and have 5 points free, enough to use stabilizer. What's more valuable to you, 25% fire rate, or -60% recoil? You could even compensate with arcane acceleration. Why is being put in a situation where there are tradeoffs so bad? DE has decided to introduce a mechanic that can potentially induce tradeoffs.

Tradeoffs are something the mod system is severely deficient of. Tradeoffs are good from a game design perspective.

 

Honestly i would say the issue is because of how modding is currently, mods that usually fall under `utlity` or `does not help damage at all that much`, in most player`s definitions, are part of the auto-ignore club despite some weapons have insanely good synergy. But it was the whole fact they had to compete with slots where damage mods can be placed, hence why i have been wishing for some kind of utiity slot system for the weapons themselves for a long while. Still did not help certain mods got once again, ignored for such boons, but still:

D.E. really needs to get around to condensing and merging plenty of auto-used mods into innate stats and just delete said mods from the game, to further force available room, so people would lean more to using utility mods, once they actually have extra slots free, since not much else to setup for modding their builds...

...too bad that even if 2 mod slots got freed up, chances are everyone would rather go the double dual elemental route, even on guns that have trash for status sadly...

[FrostDragoon]

22 minutes ago, torint_man said:

It's an extra option, not  "pay 20p to attach an extra mod for free". If you can't use it, you shouldn't get it.

Again, you're wrong. Your own statement shows the flaws in your reasoning because you're describing 20p as "free."

23 minutes ago, torint_man said:

Why is being put in a situation where there are tradeoffs so bad? DE has decided to introduce a mechanic that can potentially induce tradeoffs.

Tradeoffs are something the mod system is severely deficient of. Tradeoffs are good from a game design perspective.

This doesn't induce them in a productive/healthy way. If the Pex slots are too limited, most people will forgo them entirely because trying to use them with those "trade-offs" would end up being strictly inferior to not using them at all. He isn't being bull-headed about this, you are. You are so incredibly wrong about the whole thing that I'm not sure if it's worth my time--or anyone else's--to continue acknowledging your posts on this topic. You have yet to make a single decent point that would give pause to the complaints about the flaws in this system.