Pressure point, sacrificial pressure and sacrificial steel all made useless.

[Fallen_Echo]

15 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Got to support this... from testing so far it really does feel like they're a lot weaker than before.  Weapons that used to easily handle level 100+ enemies are now struggling and that's ignoring the range nerf for some weapons.

My builds what were desinged around the idea to kill a full group of lv150 corrupted (in case the void ever gets relevant again) are all struggling to work. My CO zaw is weak as hell, my pure crits are also terrible, only the hybrid builds seems to function to some degree but they are still terrible.

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

bumped for visibility

[Raso719]

I'm not a big math guy but I like to think I'm pretty savvy with the whole cause and effect thing.

Can someone please explain why nerfing the mods that the OP says have been nerfed affect completely separate mods?

Like, half the mods in question are critical focused in nature. Pressure Point, however is damage focused. With less crit to play with isn't it good to have more damage to make up the difference? Aren't bigger numbers generally better than smaller numbers? If you have less crit to work with how does that make a mod that ups damage useless when you want more damage?

I don't meta. I don't power creep. I don't spreadsheet to see which weapon is mathematically 1 DPS stronger than an other and then immediately delete the lesser of two weapons. 

I have not cared up until this point how all that math works (and I still don't) but I am genuinely interested in how the "mods offer less crit" leads to the obvious conclusion "Thus this damage mod clearly sucks now"

[Xzorn]

Prime Pressure Point isn't useless. If anything the previous top roll of +%Damage on Rivens is what's been hit.

It's a fairly simple comparison. Take 100 base damage weapon with 1.0 attack speed using Primed Pressure point, CO and Berserk then compare the point when Primed Fury becomes a better option than Primed Pressure Point.

• 1 Status Active PPP: 100 * (1 + 1.65 + 1.2) * ( 1 + 0.75) = 673.75
• 1 Status Active P.Fury: 100 * (1 + 1.2) * ( 1 + 0.75 + 0.55) = 506
• 2 Status Active PPP: 100 * (1 + 1.65 + 2.4) * ( 1 + 0.75) = 883.75
• 2 Status Active P.Fury: 100 * (1 + 2.4) * ( 1 + 0.75 + 0.55) = 782
• 3 Status Active PPP: 100 * (1 + 1.65 + 3.6) * ( 1 + 0.75) = 1,093.75
• 3 Status Active P.Fury: 100 * (1 + 3.6) * ( 1 + 0.75 + 0.55) = 1,058
• 4 Status Active PPP: 100 * (1 + 1.65 + 4.8) * ( 1 + 0.75) = 1,303.75
• 4 Status Active P.Fury: 100 * (1 + 4.8) * ( 1 + 0.75 + 0.55) = 1,334

...and there's your break point. 4 Active Status effects.

Given the probability in relation to attack speed to have 4 separate status effects active at once; CO is not really going to replace Primed Pressure Point outside certain configurations like spoofing your melee with Zakti or similar. It is however no longer ideal to run Primed Pressure Point with CO and a Riven that has +%Damage.

Oh and melee DPS in general is about half it's previous value comparing a modest 2 Active status effects and 3x combo to new 12x combo. Add in the removal of stance modifiers, forced procs, ect then Melee is doing about 25% it's previous DPS esp when you consider higher end 4+ Status effects and 4x combo.

[Dragazer]

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Prime Pressure Point isn't useless. If anything the previous top roll of +%Damage on Rivens is what's been hit.

It's a fairly simple comparison. Take 100 base damage weapon with 1.0 attack speed using Primed Pressure point, CO and Berserk then compare the point when Primed Fury becomes a better option than Primed Pressure Point.

• 1 Status Active PPP: 100 * (1 + 1.65 + 1.2) * ( 1 + 0.75) = 673.75
• 1 Status Active P.Fury: 100 * (1 + 1.2) * ( 1 + 0.75 + 0.55) = 506
• 2 Status Active PPP: 100 * (1 + 1.65 + 2.4) * ( 1 + 0.75) = 883.75
• 2 Status Active P.Fury: 100 * (1 + 2.4) * ( 1 + 0.75 + 0.55) = 782
• 3 Status Active PPP: 100 * (1 + 1.65 + 3.6) * ( 1 + 0.75) = 1,093.75
• 3 Status Active P.Fury: 100 * (1 + 3.6) * ( 1 + 0.75 + 0.55) = 1,058
• 4 Status Active PPP: 100 * (1 + 1.65 + 4.8) * ( 1 + 0.75) = 1,303.75
• 4 Status Active P.Fury: 100 * (1 + 4.8) * ( 1 + 0.75 + 0.55) = 1,334

...and there's your break point. 4 Active Status effects.

Given the probability in relation to attack speed to have 4 separate status effects active at once; CO is not really going to replace Primed Pressure Point outside certain configurations like spoofing your melee with Zakti or similar. It is however no longer ideal to run Primed Pressure Point with CO and a Riven that has +%Damage.

Oh and melee DPS in general is about half it's previous value comparing a modest 2 Active status effects and 3x combo to new 12x combo. Add in the removal of stance modifiers, forced procs, ect then Melee is doing about 25% it's previous DPS esp when you consider higher end 4+ Status effects and 4x combo.

Actually Berserker provides a multiplicative boost on your modded attack speed: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Berserker

So in your example, P.Fury will actually outdps at 2 status effects compared to PPP

[Miyabi-sama]

56 минут назад, Xzorn сказал:

the removal of stance modifiers, forced procs, ect

I'm struggling to find anything on this matter. Did they completely remove all forced procs and damage modifiers? From all stances?

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

Actually Berserker provides a multiplicative boost on your modded attack speed: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Berserker

So in your example, P.Fury will actually outdps at 2 status effects compared to PPP

 

I find that entry highly suspect since it was added a year ago and Berserk is a 7 year old mod.

All other buff based bonuses to attack speed and fire rate in the game are additive. Valkyr's Warcry, Volt's Speed, Arcane Strike, Arcane Velocity. All of them. You're welcome to test it but I've corrected and entered enough data on the wiki to know not to take something at face value and instead double check entries myself. DE openly avoids multiplicative values and destroys them when possible, ie Blood Rush + CC, CO, Ember's Accelerant being fatalities of this most recent patch.

It wouldn't be hard to test though. I might do it if I get bored enough.

[dota_Icarus]

On 2019-11-02 at 2:25 AM, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

Nerf WAS necessary, but said mods are now even more mandatory than before, that's my complaint and everyone's.

Can not agree more, the is also the only problem in my opinion.

Condition Overload and Blood Rush are more mandatory right now than pre patch, the nerf is, let us just be honest here, more than justified. 

[dota_Icarus]

To say it in a simple way, there was 4 kind of builds previously, the most op one was obviously the slide attack one, and a normal crit build, a normal status build, and a hybrid build.

Today, people are basicly forced to use both Condition Overload and Blood Rush since other mods are made not even considerable and the free slots from the first 3 builds must be filled with the "best" mod... 

So basicly hybrid build is almost always the best build today...

Though, we should consider that we can also use the slots modding for heavy attacks. I really like this idea of one heavy stylish punch for the finish, but the heavy attack we have right now is just (sadly) the opposite of it, slow and clunky.

For me, these nerfs are fine, maybe condition overload is nerfed just a little bit too hard? At the end, it wouldn´t really matter anyway, if the heavy attacks were done faster and more impactful...

And props on DE: the really solved the range problem well and make basicly all weapons at least playable! Thanks for that! 

[Dragazer]

33 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I find that entry highly suspect since it was added a year ago and Berserk is a 7 year old mod.

All other buff based bonuses to attack speed and fire rate in the game are additive. Valkyr's Warcry, Volt's Speed, Arcane Strike, Arcane Velocity. All of them. You're welcome to test it but I've corrected and entered enough data on the wiki to know not to take something at face value and instead double check entries myself. DE openly avoids multiplicative values and destroys them when possible, ie Blood Rush + CC, CO, Ember's Accelerant being fatalities of this most recent patch.

It wouldn't be hard to test though. I might do it if I get bored enough.

I've personally just tested this myself, With a quickening mod equipped, I tested a 1 stack berserker against fury on a gram p with cleaving whirlwind neutral combo. Berserker was noticeable faster. Both Rhino's roar and Ironclad charge have multiplicative calculations with mods and they've been here for 5-6 years.

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I'm struggling to find anything on this matter. Did they completely remove all forced procs and damage modifiers? From all stances?

 

Quite a few forced procs were removed from combos. Not entirely but enough to notice. Esp on Blade Whips and Rapiers.

Damage modifiers have been fairly normalized. Broken Bull for Heavy Weapons seems to just do half the normal damage twice instead of it's previous 400% per hit and Cyclone Kraken has one combo that does the same damage every hit (Lightning Siren Combo) while another that varies more with slower hits (Thunder Hydra). Cyclone Kraken being a stance where none of the combo attacks have the same modifiers. Forced procs from Ground Finishers seem untouched from what I tested so far.

[Xzorn]

50 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

I've personally just tested this myself, With a quickening mod equipped, I tested a 1 stack berserker against fury on a gram p with cleaving whirlwind neutral combo. Berserker was noticeable faster. Both Rhino's roar and Ironclad charge have multiplicative calculations with mods and they've been here for 5-6 years.

 

Not sure how you'd go about testing a single stack of berserk but I used Fury 30% + Warcry 77% Vs Fury 30% + Berserk 75%.

Berserk would appear to be faster. It would be nice if the combo meter went higher but on a slower weapon base 0.8 attack speed the first got 220 hits in 23 seconds while the Berserk got 220 hits in 22 seconds given it took 1 second to hit 75% from crits and of course using a macro to remove human error. At the same time I can't get Warcry over 50 seconds so even putting them in a video editor and counting hits would not be the best sample size to be 100% certain but it does appear Berserk is multiplicative.

My point also wasn't how long something has been multiplicative it was how long it's been recorded as such. If you look at History on Berserk that info was added last year and the mod is quite old which leads me to think this is a recent interaction and more than likely not intended. Unlike Rhino's Roar or other Multiplicative damage sources where DE just changed their minds a few years ago how they want buffs to work. This is an anomalous interaction throughout the entire game's history.

[Hayzemet]

En 1/11/2019 a las 12:49, (PS4)cdzbrbr dijo:

That's exactly what I didn't do while also saying i wouldn't do. 

Fail to see your preoccupation.

Regarding your last paragraph, no, no other base damage mod is viable in comparison with condition overload.

i.e We are FORCED to use condition overload and FORCED TO DROP any other base damage mod.

The same goes for critical chance, we used to have 3 viable mods, 4 with rivens, now they all suck compared to bloodrush, which was itself nerfed.

It was an unecessary double dip nerf, a literall exponential nerf, since one nerf multiplies the other nerf. Get it?

It's an obvious oversight, they made half the mods from the umbra quest useless, we gotta tell them.

If something has to be nerfed or removed from the game it's bloodrush and condition overload, not that mods that interacted with them and were only in our builds because of that.

Yes exactly, idk how thay still make this kind of mistakes, its dissapointing.

[Andele3025]

On 2019-11-01 at 12:34 PM, (XB1)razberryX said:

 Maiming Strike got a somewhat nerf

Understatement of the century.

Tho it shouldnt return to all flat bonus but be a vigilante effect with 100% proc on slide giving 3 ranks of crit, thus never interacting with the rest of the crit calculation and applying last just like vigilante, same as BR for total crit and CO for total damage but additive to itself.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Andele3025

[Hiruma-Kai]

I'm not sure I buy the useless part.  For an endurance run dealing with level 300 grineer and without complete armor stripping, then yeah condition overload and blood rush without sacrificial pressure and .  You can pretty much guarantee your combo counter will be maxed out and that you'll have plenty of time to build up all the statuses you want.

However, there's many portions of the game where that is not true (or at least in my experience its not).  Even sorties and arbitrations don't start out at that tier.  Lets make the assumption of an average player, who just wants to hit things in melee, and not constantly switch back and forth between a primary or secondary weapon to generate status, and so are just relying on their melee.  Lets say they like nikanas and Exalibur.

In such a case, if it takes less than 3 hits to kill the target, primed pressure point will generally do a better job than condition overload assuming a 100% status chance and each time you hit you get a different status (which won't happen in real play)

Condition overload, 100% status, different status, overall damage dealt after X number of hits:

1 hit: 1.0 damage multiplier, 2 hit: 2.2 + 1.0 = 3.2 net damage, 3 hit: 3.4 + 2.2 + 1.0 = 6.6 net damage, 4 hit: 4.6 + 3.4 + 2.2 + 1.0 = 11.2 net damage

Primed Pressure Point, overall damage dealt after X number of hits:

1 hit: 2.65 damage multiplier, 2 hit: 2.65 x 2 =5.3 net damage, 3 hit: 2.65 x 3 = 7.95 net damage, 4 hit: 2.65 x 4 = 10.6 net damage

If any of those assumptions are not true, then pressure point will be ahead for 4 and potentially more hits.  Like with a high crit, low status weapon.  For me, for a vast majority of my playtime, enemies generally don't take that many hits to kill.  I also don't always use 100% status chance weapons with equally balanced status type chances.

Sure if you're using a frame that inflicts status, or your willing to juggle to a 100% status shotgun or whatever, but then the primed pressure point should be compared to a similar situation, such as an Exalibur using Radial Blind, where 1 hit kill is likely, so condition overload won't even come into play.

There's also something to be said for a heavy attack build.  Don't bother with building combo, or do so only when the opposition is light.  Spam heavy attack even with 0 combo multiplier.  For most weapons it looks like a heavy strike is 5 times that of base damage.  Combine killing blow and amalgam organ shatter, you can get the heavy attack wind up down to something like 0.2 seconds for base 0.5 wind up weapons (like a nikana prime).  Berserker seems to increase the animation speed of the heavy attack so can you can basically spam them twice or maybe 3 times a second.  This frees up the slots normally assigned to blood rush and a combo duration mod since you never bother acquiring combo.  Sacrificial steel + sacrificial pressure will put a nikana prime at 58.8% crit chance, with the amalgam organs shatter, that is a x4.4 crit multiplier, times a base damage multiplier of 19.5 (how the killing blow +120% damage interacts with sacrificial pressure on heavy attack), for 85.8 times base damage when it crits, and just 19.5 when it doesn't crit, or about 58.8 times base damage on average.  This works from cold, no setup.  If you've got a kavat with +60% crit, you've got periods of time where every hit is 85.8 times base damage or so.

Swap in Blood rush, Condition overload, and drifting contact for the killing blow, sacrificial pressure and sacrificial steel.  A cold start up is 1.95 times base damage on average.  Once warmed up a little, 1 status and say 2x combo multiplier, that jumps to 6.8 times base damage, about an order of magnitude less per hit.  Lets say you're finally really cooking, and sitting at a 11x combo multiplier (~200% crit chance), and your target has 3 status effects (360% damage).  Thats 7.8 times for the crit multiplier and 4.6 for base damage, so 35.88 times base damage.  You're attacking faster (potentially much faster with warframe buffs like volt), so overall damage output is higher.  However, you've got to build up to those 3 status effects and not lose your combo multiplier during a lull in combat.

Lastly, the heavy attack build offers life strike, which basically means healing to full after every hit, without taking a hit to your damage output.

So I'll agree that the patch changes push the pressure point and the sacrificial mods down in usefulness in long endurance runs compared to CO and bloodrush, but for some new builds the patch brought and for every day usage they still look quite competitive to me.

[ShakeyMac]

On 2019-11-01 at 5:16 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

The new melee is terribly weak to the point where every high level mission can safely be labeled as "NO MELEE ZONE".

Even the previously "useable" and now buffed melee weapons feel much weaker than before.

Speak for yourself.  My crit-focused katana zaw still 1-2 shots mooks at sortie 3 levels, and will take down a bombard or tech in a matter of seconds.  My CO 2h sword zaw still does quite well too, and I've had success with a hybrid Ninkondi Prime build too.

[OvisCaedo]

While CO certainly makes some potential cases for dropping pressure point, it's not a COMPLETE outclass. Not with how often DE throws in enemies completely immune to status effects, anyhow.

blood rush does seem like it would make just about all other crit mods pointless for anyone planning on actually using melee combat though. I'm running the sac crit mod on my redeemer because i don't plan to do so.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, ShakeyMac said:

Speak for yourself.  My crit-focused katana zaw still 1-2 shots mooks at sortie 3 levels, and will take down a bombard or tech in a matter of seconds.  My CO 2h sword zaw still does quite well too, and I've had success with a hybrid Ninkondi Prime build too.

 

Heh, I think Mooks is a key word here. Sorties and pretty much anything lvl 100 or under is meaningless fodder.

I've done M3 Survival with no mods on. It's just a joke. Other player is also overreacting since in that level range melee still clobbers enemies.

That doesn't really change that it was reduced by more than 50% in total damage output which comically still doesn't matter because at lvl 300+ only a select few frames can still afford to melee. So doesn't seem to be much point either way if you ask me. It's like they wanted to cut down the top end while causing a huge mess when there isn't anywhere to use the top end anyways and all we got out of it was directional Ground Slams and previous Quick Attack being able to do combos.

[el_chanis]

On 2019-11-01 at 8:07 AM, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

 

Just like serration is a nerf to chroma, everything damage or critical chance related are now nerfs to melee weapons, bravo!

 

Let me remind you that NO BOSS IN THE GAME last more than 2 seconds (minus invul phases), even in SORTIES. Even if this was a straight nerf (wich it isn't), it would be just fine. We are obnoxiously powerfull. Warframe has no endgame, not for lack of design, but for excess of power. If all the damage we deal is cut in half, we probably still gonna be too strong for the game.

We need more challanges, and less BS (like grendel missions). The best way to achieve that is nerfing the players.

[vaarnaaarne]

Not to mention, thinking level 300+ is the thing mods and builds should be balanced for is absolutely prepostrous.

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

10 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

Let me remind you that NO BOSS IN THE GAME last more than 2 seconds (minus invul phases), even in SORTIES. Even if this was a straight nerf (wich it isn't), it would be just fine. We are obnoxiously powerfull. Warframe has no endgame, not for lack of design, but for excess of power. If all the damage we deal is cut in half, we probably still gonna be too strong for the game.

We need more challanges, and less BS (like grendel missions). The best way to achieve that is nerfing the players.

I think you need some interpretation of texts classes there pal.

They could nerf Chroma to the ground for all I care.

It was an analogy to indicate a repeating pattern: Because they were too afraid to nerf chroma, they nerfed its interaction with one single mod, serration, much like they just did now with bloodrush and condition overload; said mods are now MORE MANDATORY than before.

All they did was to render 3 10 rank mods that gave players a sense of progression, useless; the ones i mentioned in the OP.

Want my opinion? Remove Bloodrush and Condition Overload; adjust base damage and critical chance some more.

How can you ballance a game with mods that go from 60% to 660%, from 120% to 980%?

I'm serious when I say these guys need help balancing their game.

Not only did players circumvent that chroma interaction nerf as the only thing we were left with is the inconvenience of replacing serration for another mod to obtain similar results.

Players are circumventing the pressure point interaction removal as well, adding a third dual stat, usually the heat one.

Get it now?

Rest wise, we have the same opinion.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by (PS4)cdzbrbr

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

3 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

While CO certainly makes some potential cases for dropping pressure point, it's not a COMPLETE outclass. Not with how often DE throws in enemies completely immune to status effects, anyhow.

blood rush does seem like it would make just about all other crit mods pointless for anyone planning on actually using melee combat though. I'm running the sac crit mod on my redeemer because i don't plan to do so.

I'll be fair and agree with you there, it's how I feel regarding both mods too.

Bloodrush kills its counterparts more than condition overload does, based on the sheer difficulty of getting the most out of the latter.

We have 660% crit chance forever after dedicating 2 minutes vs. 60% or 88%. - Not fair at all

And then potential 980% base damage, which realistically will always be around 360, 480 vs. 165% and 135%.

 

 

[Hayzemet]

Are you people ok? man it is incredible how some people can not read, OP never said that melee was weak. The fact is that CO and Bloodrush outclass very #*!%ing expensive mods, and stacking them is now not optimal. Melee is still pretty strong no doubt. But the subject here is not about melee, but about S#&$ balance, between easy to get OP mods and hard to max/get "primed" mods which are supposed to be the best.

Also getting to  x12 combo takes less than a minute. Don't pander to DE's crappy design, they should have thought this through.

[(PSN)TEWOOK2]

blood rush? maiming?  It's not nerf It's the harmonies of mocking and lying 

[(PSN)TEWOOK2]

On 11/2/2019 at 12:14 PM, George_PPS said:

DE is now dictating how and what players should play. Terrible. Just watch that DE Bear explaining why Catchmoon has to be nerfed. This new nerfing mentality is being applied to all areas of the game play. 

If players use too much of something, it’s abuse, nerf it. If players found out what is powerful and work hard to craft/get them, it’s called power creep, nerf it. If too many players love and use some weapon, nerf its stats and Riven disposition. If an ability makes the space ninjas’ day easy, take it away. 

All in the name of balance, killing the most fun, rewarding parts of the game. 

I see de bear screaming an nerfed and I thought, de is dead