Ember is hot Garbage

[ShortCat]

Ember rework completely changed her essence and left only the fire theme as a reminder of her past self. This new adaptation is a lesser version of the old flame mistress, as her design is a patchwork of already existing abilities and mechanics without a clear design or distinct identity.

Fireball remains as terrible as it used to be. Its offensive potential even with combo meter and stacking damage nature is pointless, because it still competes with weapons against single targets and with Inferno in terms of AoE, while Inferno costs only 10e per target, compared to Fireball’s 25e. Fireball has little to no place in now Ember’s energy hungry skill set. Not to mention the redundant 2.5 seconds charge mechanic with doubled energy costs, which ironically doesn’t even work with Fireball Frenzy Augment. Its contribution to bong charge seems like the only remaining use, but it even fails in this regard; I will explain it later.

Immolation is meant to be a centerpiece of Ember’s kit. It successfully reaches this goal with extensive micro management and dependencies. Deceptively free maintenance costs successfully hide uncapped overheat tax as well as frequent 75e expensive regulation via Fireblast. All those intertwined skills forge a spammy and thus energy hungry kit, with a lot of busy work for little payoff.

Fireblast deals no damage; knock back CC is short, highly inconvenient and has wonky LoS detection. Its clunky Armor strip utility is the only viable feature, however against non-armored targets this skills is almost pointless and seems more like a band-aid for Armor.

Inferno is mediocre. Its potential damage relies on Fireblast’s armor strip as well as massive ability spam, due to a target limit of 10 units per cast. It is possible to nuke lower levels, but get ready for some unimpressive and tedious button mashing. The feature to spread fire debuff is highly unreliable, especially since dead enemies cannot spread it.
Inferno has no initial energy costs and can be activated without targeting anything to fill the bong for free. This neat interaction makes Fireball completely pointless.
At last, WTF is this cartoony meteor summoning? It is hard bias from my side, but maaaaaan does it look silly and out of place.

In the end, Ember brings very little to a team. Her nuke potential falls off around lvl 70. In higher lvls Ember also struggles to stay alive, because she has no CC and cannot kill fast enough. As a result, you would have to invest more into survivability at the cost of nuke power, which makes her even less dangerous in the process. This leaves only clunky Armor strip as a possible contribution.
With careful ability usage Immolation’s DR can be combined with Adaptation for some survivability, but then Ember becomes just a walking weapon platform. At least Fireball Frenzy is still an option.

Ember’s nuking role is modeled after Saryn, but Ember pales in a direct competition. Bong joggling is a less successful Gauss rip-off. Augments can transform Ember into a semi-support, which works similar to Nezha, but again Ember falls behind.
Finally, Ember is just not a joy to play.

Edited November 2, 2019 by ShortCat

[Midas]

^^ How do you suggest it be fixed?

[Xyhon]

Well, welcome to DE type of reworks. They only seem to play them at 30 max. Most of frames which are numbers based tend to fall off at 70-80, also, they cannot even rebalance tedious fights like Eidolons, to be more frame/weapon viable. So, don't expect miracles in this department. 

[ShortCat]

Just now, Midas said:

^^ How do you suggest it be fixed?

Is this Feedback or Player Concepts? Neither do I know what was inteded or what De can do with their tech. I am not working for DE to design Frames for them, the fact that we are beta testing the game is bad enough.

 

[Midas]

Just now, ShortCat said:

Is this Feedback or Player Concepts? Neither do I know what was inteded or what De can do with their tech. I am not working for DE to design Frames for them, the fact that we are beta testing the game is bad enough.

 

Then your feedback is not productive friend. You must include solutions to the problem. I’m sure they’d love to hear reasons and how to fix it.

[Shockness]

I'd love if they made Fireball a lobbing projectile that leaves an area of fire behind that spreads much like a molotov, enemies that get into this area will proc'd with heat, the longer the enemy stays inside this area the more heat procs are occuring and thus the more damage it can do. This would make it a great ability to lockdown hallways.

For fire blast I'd make it a free cast whenever immolation meter is at maximum. Afterall, all you're doing is releasing the build up fire energy, doesn't make sense to me that it costs any energy.

I like the spread from Inferno but it just doesn't feel right, it also really doesn't look like fire like cmone who designed the inferno spread effect? I'd rather just have inferno do massive direct damage and put the enemy on fire.

On top of that I'd like heat procs to spread much like inferno does now. Enemies standing close to another burning enemy should also recieve a heat proc. 

All these together gives Ember a nice use and adds to her persona of being able to burn the world. But who am I DE is never going to do this after they've just spent time revamping her.

[-QUILL_PETER-]

If you're  not modding max efficiency on Ember, then you're the problem. New Ember is great.

[ShortCat]

11 minutes ago, Midas said:

You must include solutions to the problem.

All the solutions are there, read between the lines.

Fireball cannot compete damage-wise. Turn it into something else, maybe CC, becasue Ember has none.

Immolation is unreliable, due to frequent ups and dawns and energy overtaxation. Forced synergies or dependencies are horrible, remove them.

Firebalst is too expensive, does nothing against non armored targets and ragdolls are annoying.

Inferno needs a new effect as well as everything else.

Even with fixes to Ember's kit she will remain a bad ripp-off. There is nothing to salvage there. Rework the rework.

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by ShortCat

[ShortCat]

6 minutes ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

If you're  not modding max efficiency on Ember, then you're the problem. New Ember is great.

Thanks for assuming the build I use. Maybe you share your view on her rework and point out how my criticism is out of place. Or share your current build. Everything is more welcome than this void speech bubble.

[Gurpgork]

7 minutes ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

If you're  not modding max efficiency on Ember, then you're the problem. New Ember is great.

Well there's two problems with this. First, a Warframe's kit shouldn't be unmanageable at base efficiency. And second, and more importantly, the energy drain of Immolation is still uncapped regardless of how much efficiency you have. Not to mention that this does nothing to fix the outrageous micromanagement you have to do at all times. 

[bad4youLT]

So far my own personal expirience :

 - energy hungry , her 2 needs to build up gouge slower or remove energy drain

 - 4th doesnt scale well past lvl 70 and Im using umbral build on her

 - 1st should have been fused with her old fire blast and strip armour as enemys burn wich would make it for once a usefull ability

 - her best ability accelerant should have been fused with her 2 into psuedo aura instead of revoming enterily

[ZenHare]

28 minutes ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

If you're  not modding max efficiency on Ember, then you're the problem. New Ember is great.

That is way overkill. There are plenty of ways to regen energy without needing to do that.

[Colyeses]

43 minutes ago, Midas said:

Then your feedback is not productive friend. You must include solutions to the problem

That is not how feedback works. You can give feedback and tell the devs what is and isn't working without also being required to do their job for them. They have people who are paid to design solutions.

[ShortCat]

15 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

her 2 needs to build up gouge slower or remove energy drain

Gauge fills according to your skill usage, if you spam a lot, especially #4, it rises faster. Overheat energy tax depends on Duration. With high Duration you can stay at 90% without losing too much energy, but her other skill do not require Duration. Lastly, you can turn off #2 to reset it, but this juggling feels really forced.

[bad4youLT]

4 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Gauge fills according to your skill usage, if you spam a lot, especially #4, it rises faster. Overheat energy tax depends on Duration. With high Duration you can stay at 90% without losing too much energy, but her other skill do not require Duration. Lastly, you can turn off #2 to reset it, but this juggling feels really forced.

doing so you lose damage reduction wich vital in higher levels , with out it shes like paper 

[Windy_Wind]

kinda agree with you, she really need some more helps, the dmg is just not impressive for the amount of energy spent, and the energy drain is just tedious, meanwhile someone like saryn or mesa doesn't have to manage any of that and ditches out more than ember can ever hope. The only good thing for her is the heat proc change and even then it can't bring her on par with other frames.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Windy_Wind

[ShortCat]

12 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

doing so you lose damage reduction wich vital in higher levels , with out it shes like paper 

I know, and mentioned that you either save energy or compromise survivability.

[ShortCat]

3 minutes ago, Windy_Wind said:

the dmg is just not impressive for the amount of energy spent,

Befor rework Ember had good damage potentail via Acelerant, fire buffs and weapon scaling. Now she lost it.

[ZenHare]

32 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

doing so you lose damage reduction wich vital in higher levels , with out it shes like paper 

Add Adaptation and one or two Arcane Guardians and she has no issues surviving at high levels. Her Immolation is excellent in keeping the first wave of damage down to give her Adaptation time to ramp up to 90%. It is very similar to Adaptation's interaction with Nova's Null Star.

Edited November 2, 2019 by ZenHare
Spelling

[Raqiya]

27 minutes ago, Windy_Wind said:

kinda agree with you, she really need some more helps, the dmg is just not impressive for the amount of energy spent, and the energy drain is just tedious, meanwhile someone like saryn or mesa doesn't have to manage any of that and ditches out more than ember can ever hope. The only good thing for her is the heat proc change and even then it can't bring her on par with other frames.

Mesa and Saryn just needs to be nerfed. They're overtuned.

[Raikh]

Ember is FAR stronger post-rework. The rework has a fair share of problems but it still puts Ember ina better palce than before, which isn't hard but still.

Fireball is still just a paltform for her augment. Its never worth using b y tiself. The augment is still evry good though.

Immolation is finally giving her the survivability to smoothly run in content past starchart level. While its starting to become a generic trait these days its the key to be able to do Arbi's for past an hour w/o randomly getting sniped for all your hp.

Fireblast is a bandaid, agreed. A band-aif to be the broken armor sclaing of the game. It enables her kit to work on armored enemies and generally also functions as a strong damage increase if you aren't running 4x CP. The LoS requirement however, I agree, is bad, its actually worse than her 4 where it is even listed as a requirement.

Meteor is dealign fine damage. Once armor stripped you can kill 100+ heavies with it and normal mobs around the 100 still jsut die. Its fairly similar  It could and should probably brought up to Bladestorm levels of damage but its certainly functional and for a non-weapon scaling AoE nuke it is fairly strong and up there. It obviously doesn't strictly onehsot enemies but the dot and dot spreading can do a lot of work and its functionality wise fine. Either make the meteors splash to have extra pwoer against more stacked enemies or give some extra damage and then its quite fine.

Her biggest issue is by wide and far her energy consumption. Its insane. Max efficiency is pretty much mandatory and even with that its hard to sustain yourself witohut other help form Zenurik, ENergize or pizzas. This is where changes need to go. SHe needs to spend energy to stop drainign all her energy which is jsut silly and the general expenses for her kit and need to constantly cats abilites even if makes no sense for the actual combat jsut make her high cost and high maintenance which hinders her usability.

[ZenHare]

16 minutes ago, Raqiya said:

Mesa and Saryn just needs to be nerfed. They're overtuned.

Mesa is not that bad unless you are playing on a very open map. Saryn on the other hand is annoying as #*!%. All frames need to require LoS on their abilities. It would solve one of the bigger problems of warframe where one nuke frame can leave the three other people in the mission little to do aside from sitting on their ass.

[ShortCat]

6 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Fireblast...It enables her kit to work on armored enemies and generally also functions as a strong damage increase if you aren't running 4x CP.

Meteor is dealign fine damage. Once armor stripped you can kill 100+ heavies with it and normal mobs around the 100 still jsut die.

Unfortunatelly, this theory crafting gets smashed by reality, more precisely by logarithmic Armor scaling. This means, if you do not strip Armor completely, enemies will have enough DR to reduce damage to a fraction. As a result, when enemies get tougher and you want your Inferno to deal some damage, it becomes necessary to use Fireblast while Ember's bong is full.

 

[bad4youLT]

43 minutes ago, ZenHare said:

Add Adaptation and one or two Arcane Guardians and she has no issues surviving at high levels. Her Immolation is excellent in keeping the first wave of damage down to give her Adaptation time to ramp up to 90%. It is very similar to Adaptation's interaction with Nova's Null Star.

have adaptation and two graces , still squishy 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

She’s in a much better spot to be improved and buffed over the coming weeks.