DE, the Lich System is bad and it needs to change.

[George_PPS]

On 2019-11-03 at 1:41 AM, Whiskered said:

Now I am worried about the railjack update.

If you have stopped playing like me and many veterans and hardcore players, you have nothing to worry about Railjack. 

Haven't you watched the Prime Time with DE Bear? He shows us, instead of creating new contents, how DE Is spending a huge deal of time studying spreadsheets and analyzing cold numbers to decide what to nerf next if anything is deemed to be an outlineR because playerS love to use it and are having too much fun. Fun is now banned. Your metas gears can be thrown into trash bins anytime. 

The new contents are simplified into quarterly, monthly, and weekly nerfs of players favorite items and weapons that we also spend a lot of time to grind and build.  

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by George_PPS

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

to decide what to nerf next if anything is deemed to be an outlineR because playerS love to use it and are having too much fun. Fun is now banned.

Spoiler

 

 

Before you start whinging about how these are just your feelings and how dare I talk down to you for expressing them, google "vitriol".

Vitriol is not productive, over exaggerating is not productive, spreading salt in every thread you can is not productive. I strongly recommend taking a break from the forums until your head is in a better place, because you're liable to get good threads locked.

[Whiskered]

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

If you have stopped playing like me and many veterans and hardcore players, you have nothing to worry about Railjack. 

Haven't you watched the Prime Time with DE Bear? He shows us, instead of creating new contents, how DE Is spending a huge deal of time studying spreadsheets and analyzing cold numbers to decide what to nerf next if anything is deemed to be an outlineR because playerS love to use it and are having too much fun. Fun is now banned. Your metas gears can be thrown into trash bins anytime. 

The new contents are simplified into quarterly, monthly, and weekly nerfs of players favorite items and weapons that we also spend a lot of time to grind and build.  

 

You talk like meta is only way to play this game.

I am personally not chasing metas and grinding for top tier stuff, but just playing for fun. On a cycle of playing for few months and then few months break.

Yeah sometimes nerfs are necessary and justified but not always.

Like I am okay with catchmoon nerf but not weith desecration/pilfering swarm interaction nerfs.


Now I am wondering.
Shouldn't Warframe have some sort PTE servers? To test things proselyte before shipping.

Also I'd suggest special capture missions to get like 50% of murmur progress instantly.

[DBrolli]

I'm on board with the opinion. 😓

1.Going to any lvl 20+ Grineer mission would make it easy to initiate the lich, that shouldn't really be the case.

2. Poking thralls as a means of interrogation? Very long.

• Something that can increase the rate of murmur acquisition like a mod or item
• Something that can lower the requirements of murmur acquisition, a sort of gague like Lich hunting experience, or better yet, our Mastery Rank!

3. The Tax system? I am indifferent about it either way, but hearing that there's emphereas to get is kind of cool to me. More for the fashionframe, y'know?

4. Kuva weapons are cool, but as someone mentioned it in the thread, there could be more traits to base off the Progenitor warframe than just an elemental bonus. Also seeing them being able to get up to 40 in mod capacity is okay, but that's just affinity grind^tm.

• Innate silence (haha funny boom weapon yet no one hears it)
• Reload speed

All in all, this gives some of that good ole content, but... It feels imbalanced.

 

[EclipseIstaken]

After getting 4 liches(close to 5), i've found out that its disastrous for farming all these weps

And so, i have few suggestions to address and really hope DE can take a look

1. Increase/unlimited use of the requiem mods, so the farm won't be painful, and people can also run the requiem relics for riven silver, amber star, kuva and weapon exilus adapter instead of just the mods

2. Decrease the amounts required thralls to kill, now it is 50 kills per requiem relevant, this is outrageous, spend almost 1-2 hours to assemble all 3 mods need to kill the lich, at least reduce the amounts, reduce it to 5-10 from my point of view, just like what you did to mutalist alad v. From 3 to 1 per key need

 

[Skaleek]

Im just going to chip in here. I have zero problems with influence spread/taxing. We get it all back so it is simply delayed gratification. What i would prefer is for their influence to spread far and wide, but the missions to remain their normal selves, including fissures, sorties, kuva, arbitration etc. In those missions thralls spawn randomly to contribute towards your murmur until you finally remove your Lich from power. At which point you do it all over again. This would make the murmur farming way more seamless, and integrated into warframe as a whole. I'd like to see the frequency of the lich attack rise with your murmur progress. Meaning once you have unlocked all 3 murmurs you are basically getting attacked by your lich every mission till either he dies or you die.

I want the lich system integrated into the Warframe i already have. I dont want to play an entirely different set of missions (which are rather unrewarding since they are basically running normal starchart missions). I feel like this would significantly reduced percieved grind.
 

My favourite thing to do in warframe is double dip: I love when i can get 3-4 nightwave criteria done in one mission. It's efficient. Please make me feel this way with Kuva liches.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Skaleek

[MirageKnight]

5 hours ago, LazyBunnyKiera said:

DE really needed to let some beta testers play it, that weren't in-house.

Sadly, us PC players are the beta testers.

[DoomFruit]

29 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

My favourite thing to do in warframe is double dip: I love when i can get 3-4 nightwave criteria done in one mission. It's efficient. Please make me feel this way with Kuva liches.

An interesting idea... but only when all the complete bullS#&$ has been taken out of the lich system.

Consumable mods: BS.

Getting arbitrarily killed because you didn't have information that you had no way of obtaining: complete BS.

Hours and hours of grind to get murmurs: yet more BS.

Getting vital (T5 relics, the parazon mods that you need?) or unique (sortie rewards that aren't endo, void relic stuff?) things robbed from you: utter BS.

And from a consistency perspective: perhaps the lich's wounds might knit together again after it's dead, the various parts of the body might even seek each other our and reconnect via kuva nanite magic... but if I bathe the corpse in burning acid (ignis, corrosive + fire), acidic burning radiation (plasmor, corrosive + fire) or constant electrolysis (any electrical beam or otherwise persistent weapon), that ought to utterly obliterate it down to the molecular level. There's no coming back when anything larger than a molecule of acetic acid has been either oxidised into CO2 or ionised into a puddle of dissociated atoms.

There really ought to be a total overkill mechanic whereby you unload everything into the lich and if you deal enough excess damage of a certain type (here: acid, radiation, fire, electric), then it is gone forever - the lich, its weapon, everything.

EDIT: or just desecrate the corpse. Or, if channelling still existed, that.

EDIT 2: or what about magic space child powers. They're the explicit counter to the kuva lardians' magic anti-everything kuva staves.

Edited November 4, 2019 by DoomFruit

[BloodRavenCap]

Kudos to DE for making us feel bad for killing Grineer. It's like a real war simulator right now, cause you just don't want to get back in that hell.

В 03.11.2019 в 02:47, Gabbynaru сказал:

Tell that to Shadow of Mordor, that's exactly how they did it. You could kill them by normal means, but you needed powers to have them join you. I genuinely wouldn't mind that, especially if the Liches could spawn in normal missions too, they'd be a nice distraction like the Stalker or G3, but more of a pain in the a** (especially mine with it's hitscan Tonkor that nails me before I even see it).

At last somebody else said that.

I've already created a thread where I explained all the problems with the current system. Shadow of Mordor\War got it right. You can kill an orc that's a lot stronger than you - you get more experience from that, you get loot and you get a satisfaction of defeating an worthy adversary. And there were many orcs - so, if you don't like the loot, you can find another orc to take them down very fast. It was a very neat loop. If you want to be prepared, you can torture an informant, or you can just bruteforce the whole thing.

I understand why DE created this Requiem system. I understand, but I just don't want to accept it. It would be a lot interesting if we could create dozens of Liches with randomized weapons, powers and resistances with their unique personalities and stuff. If they could ambush you, battle each other for the zones of influence, serve you whenever you would need them - I think it would be a lot more interesting and simple. You kill dozens of Liches, but at least it's easier for you to find the loot you want or the follower you'd like.

The Requiem mods right now are just a nuisance, they don't add anything of worth to the gameplay. They don't affect your parazon, they don't really expand the lore, as DE promised, they don't do anything, apart from making you waste your time.

So, why would we even want them?

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Vitriol is not productive, over exaggerating is not productive, spreading salt in every thread you can is not productive...because you're liable to get good threads locked.

This right here! Thanks for chipping in Monkey - issues like this one are too important to screw up and cranking up the rage to 11 is liable to get this thread (and others like it) locked and buried where they can't be seen.

I freely admit that when I started composing the initial post, I was mad as hell. I had some really nasty words for the devs. Once I got that all out of my system, I looked at what I wrote and thought "I don't think this is going to help my cause in the slightest" and had a friend read it and make suggestions.

I'm so glad I did that.

People, please keep this civil, level-headed, and on point. You might not agree with everything that I or others have to say or maybe you do. That's fine. It's possible to have a good, respectful discussion while being extremely critical.

10 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

And from a consistency perspective: perhaps the lich's wounds might knit together again after it's dead, the various parts of the body might even seek each other our and reconnect via kuva nanite magic... but if I bathe the corpse in burning acid (ignis, corrosive + fire), acidic burning radiation (plasmor, corrosive + fire) or constant electrolysis (any electrical beam or otherwise persistent weapon), that ought to utterly obliterate it down to the molecular level. There's no coming back when anything larger than a molecule of acetic acid has been either oxidised into CO2 or ionised into a puddle of dissociated atoms.

There really ought to be a total overkill mechanic whereby you unload everything into the lich and if you deal enough excess damage of a certain type (here: acid, radiation, fire, electric), then it is gone forever - the lich, its weapon, everything.

EDIT: or just desecrate the corpse. Or, if channelling still existed, that.

EDIT 2: or what about magic space child powers. They're the explicit counter to the kuva lardians' magic anti-everything staves.

Now this would be great and believable. And your reminder about Operators is really on point.

I'd also like to add in that Lichs should have a weak point, such as with Nox enemies, that you can exploit for extra damage. That nice big crystal in the chest armor looks like a perfect candidate for a weak point.

[BloodRavenCap]

2 часа назад, Komuto_ сказал:

1. Increase/unlimited use of the requiem mods, so the farm won't be painful, and people can also run the requiem relics for riven silver, amber star, kuva and weapon exilus adapter instead of just the mods

As I said before, the Requiem mods system itself is a problem. It's really easy to see why it was implemented. If DE wants to leave this mechanic in the game, mods themselves should find some other use, than just kill-phrases for the Liches. They should affect gameplay in some other way. Just melting them into credits or endo isn't enough, because right now we have arbitrations and other stuff to get credits and endo faster. And if you get infinite use out of mods, what's the point in grinding them at all after you get the whole set? That's why I'm proposing to abandon this mechanic entirely.

1 час назад, DoomFruit сказал:

or just desecrate the corpse. Or, if channelling still existed, that.

I like where this is going

Edited November 4, 2019 by BloodRavenCap

[Whiskered]

55 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Im just going to chip in here. I have zero problems with influence spread/taxing. We get it all back so it is simply delayed gratification.

There are reports of people not getting certain things back. Like warframe parts.

It would be also good to have list of everything that litch stole from you so far...
And I'd suggest them stealing our cosmetic items even...and wear em.

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, Komuto_ said:

After getting 4 liches(close to 5), i've found out that its disastrous for farming all these weps

This is why i am going to hate it once it comes to console and brings back an important damn question of mine: Why is D.E. not focused on EXPANDING systems? Most of the major line updates are leading usually to NEW THINGS, but not actual improvements on older, existing content. With the few exceptions, usually only happening after an absurdly long time. Not just UI tweaks or expanding on content they just released literally just last major update. But i am talking stuff like Sorties, resource extractors, syndicates, relic system, freakin helminth nursery, maybe improve the somachord jukebox so we can use shazwin songs or even mix mandachord & shazwin beats together to create some really nice background music.

For cripes sakes we got plenty of people doing Guitar Hero free style all up in the biz when Mandachord came out, now people are doing the same with shazwin that i am sure they want to get some drums, concert system & maybe throw in some piano, violin, trumpets into that mix. Course that would be a distraction on what `actually` needs expansions. :/

Quote

And so, i have few suggestions to address and really hope DE can take a look

1. Increase/unlimited use of the requiem mods, so the farm won't be painful, and people can also run the requiem relics for riven silver, amber star, kuva and weapon exilus adapter instead of just the mods

Better idea, remove the requiem mods from relics and just make them farmable in kuva fortress period. If we already have to farm liches `multiple times`, for the SAME EXACT WEAPON, in a pool of 13 weapons, which are likely going to become an EVEN BIGGER POOL, when D.E. likely forget to add the ability to `exchange liches` with clan members or something or even a mechanic which should let us force the lich to change weapons, no one is going to enjoy chain grinding for a puny item that is not the equivalency of playing the Advance class: HERO in Phantasy star online 2, trust me, look it up, its absurdly op. Because everyone knows when weapon variations exist, people are likely going to avoid them like the plague, if they already have to do huge amounts of grind and the weapons, Are not given a power tier that can achieve the results of the more desired weapons. Which i am talking Cornith, Staticor, Lenz, Acceltra, Pre-nerf Catch-moon, Pretty much any polearm/scythe zaw in the game, etc. Which just means even more ridiculous power scaling, despite D.E. having some kind of allergic reaction to direct power creep or something along those lines.

Quote

2. Decrease the amounts required thralls to kill, now it is 50 kills per requiem relevant, this is outrageous, spend almost 1-2 hours to assemble all 3 mods need to kill the lich, at least reduce the amounts, reduce it to 5-10 from my point of view, just like what you did to mutalist alad v. From 3 to 1 per key need

Decreasing the time taken to get thru the rotation is good, but the fact it requires 3 mods, no reward for killing the lich at a higher level and your just given a dark`souls style insta kill, cept its even more unfair since apparently, it seems the lich can just straight up kill you when it charges at you, even if you did not start the stabbening yet~.

Anyone remember the original Dark Sector game where those shield enemies literally just could get near you then kill you in one shot? Yeah, getting those vibes again that clearly shows D.E. needs to god dang get some content creators on their game design and use them for opinions on game design, Plus start putting up polls to get a dang idea how the community will react to certain elements were being thinked about being implemented, that way, D.E. does not waste months of resources, on a system that is just going to piss off the community and they likely gotta rick-saw a quick solution together to appease people or let all those resources be a carcass, just like how conclave, resource extractors, archwing `unique missions` and so many other things have been left untouched, D.E. has yet to do something like atleast remove those resources to reduce the size of the game and maybe have the empty space where the conclave console be, to have the relic podium put there instead or some new device for certain functions i am sure plenty of people would like to be included into warframe.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Avienas

[Skaleek]

1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

Consumable mods: BS.

Getting arbitrarily killed because you didn't have information that you had no way of obtaining: complete BS.

Hours and hours of grind to get murmurs: yet more BS.

Getting vital (T5 relics, the parazon mods that you need?) or unique (sortie rewards that aren't endo, void relic stuff?) things robbed from you: utter BS.

I don't mind the consumable parazon phrases honestly. I already have 4-5 of each (that's like 20-30 liches I imagine) just from running intacts intermittently. I will run out of steam from murmur farming far before i run out of phrases.

I also don't mind them stealing high value things from me at all. As long as I get it back when i kill them, why does it matter? I can actually see a situation where (if people have farmed what they wanted from liches) people start to use liches as extra riven storage space.

The instadeath for wrong phrasing, yeah it doesnt make sense to me but do i care? nah.

The hours and hours of active grind to get murmurs, ok yes this is where the system breaks down for me. If this grind was more passive/integrated like i suggested before, it would be more tolerable.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Skaleek

[Skaleek]

37 minutes ago, Whiskered said:

There are reports of people not getting certain things back. Like warframe parts.

It would be also good to have list of everything that litch stole from you so far...
And I'd suggest them stealing our cosmetic items even...and wear em.

Yes a list would be very welcome! Also, if anything that got stolen i didn't get back, i would be pretty angry. A lich wearing my cosmetics would be quite funny, especially if they commented on it: "This looks better on me than it ever would on you".

Edited November 4, 2019 by Skaleek

[Whiskered]

4 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Yes a list would be very welcome! Also, if anything that got stolen i didn't get back, i would be pretty angry.

Missing gear seems as server de-sync related issue and bugs rather than malicious intent.

I have said that earlier but repeat that.
Those litches could/should also drop some deocartive Armour pieces and other cosmetic items.
Why not sue some procedural generation of those comsetics?

[Skaleek]

3 minutes ago, Whiskered said:

Those litches could/should also drop some deocartive Armour pieces and other cosmetic items.
Why not sue some procedural generation of those comsetics?

That is a slippery slope. People then would be very mad if they wanted a specific cosmetic because it would then become a grind to get said cosmetic.

[Whiskered]

Just now, Skaleek said:

That is a slippery slope. People then would be very mad if they wanted a specific cosmetic because it would then become a grind to get said cosmetic.

It's kinda is with weapons.
Though throwing hissy fit over cosmetic is rather dumb.

Also if this system would be actually fun to interact with, it wouldn't be much of issue.

Have you seen the new kuva pack with all thees new kuva armour pieces that are bundle only?

[EmailSoup]

A little update since you linked my post;

I killed my third Lich yesterday and I'm not happy about it. I encountered what seems to be the worst case of rng possible, essentially the Kuva Lich system at its worst. And it burned me out so badly.

I'd like to preface this by stating that while I was helping a buddy of mine farm murmurs, he guessed 2 requiem mods correctly by sheer rng and his 3rd one only took 2 guesses. In total, my buddy only needed to stabby stab the Lich 2 times. All the while, it took me 7 attempts to guess my first requiem mod correctly by elimination. That is statistically the worst possible luck. (1/8 chance) 4 attempts for my second one. By that time all 3 of my murmurs were already revealed, in the worst possible order. (It revealed my first and second already correctly guessed mods.) So I needed 1 more attempt to kill it.

And then icing on the cake. So here I am, max level Lich one shotting me and stuff. So I unequip my girl mag, stick on Rhino and queue a capture mission. The Lich doesn't spawn. I do this 3 times, no spawn. So I start going through every other mission type. First I did exterminate, then sabotage, then spy, then survival and he finally spawned during the survival. I had to fight him with no life support.

My first 2 Liches were already awful enough to grind, but this 3rd one really showcased the system at the worst possible rng. I am so incredibly burnt out from this, and as others have pointed out, the revealed murmurs should not reveal mods that were already been guessed. 

Did I enjoy the system as a whole? Probably. I have a lot of good things to say about the Liches but this third Lich was the breaking point for me and I will no longer support the system in its current state.

 

[Skaleek]

2 minutes ago, Whiskered said:

Have you seen the new kuva pack with all thees new kuva armour pieces that are bundle only?

Yes and I know that I shouldn't buy it. I think people will complain until the cosmetics are separated out so i can buy those individually, or DE will release them individually at some point. I made the mistake of buying the stalker bundle thing just to get the WAR so i could have both war and broken war, then DE added a way to farm it. I've been burned too many times by DE i know better now.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Skaleek

[RA1313ITS]

I agree 100% with the OP.  I don't really have anything to add to the conversation.  The whole lich thing is a chore and is very unfun as is.  

[Tinklzs]

Obviously this was made to take a long while over the course of many months. The issue is how invasive the lich is, even when you don't want to fight them, what if they occupy a tileset you wanted to play on or grind on or complete a specific mission on? The grind for these is horrible, especially solo - and burnout is a real threat.  Even arbitration and sortie aren't safe.

https://imgur.com/a/eCfofMV

 

I think the weapons should be the first things you can get, no duplicates, and by leveling your lich you level the bonus damage on the weapon. The type of weapon damage would be determined by what warframe is currently using it. Meaning, if nidus gives toxin you're kuva karak now has that toxin bonus, equip it on ember for a heat bonus etc. Again, increasing the level of the lich increases the damage bonus up to the cap (whatever the cap is). Giving reward for those who want to min-max the weapon with an investment of time (if they like the weapon) with the option to 'do it more quickly' for those who don't care for it (MR Fodder).

Emphera's would have higher chance of spawning when you get a handful of weapons, being guaranteed to spawn when you get them all. 

After the player has 50%+ of the kuva weapons, players can now receive 'bundle' rewards. 50-100k kuva, endo, maybe a primed mod or two. Lots of potential here for rewards, even some 'new' arcanes (worthwhile, arcanes DE). 

This is obviously designed to be a endgame grind of sorts, too bad no one cares about it - it's too invasive, and even when you eventually get the weapons (be it weeks or years from now) the lich is still invading other places he doesn't belong.  In my opinion, liches should only be able to invade nearby planets to the kuva fortress and have to leave when the fortress moves, just like floods/siphons. Shift minions over to only spawning on siphons/floods with a greater chance (70% +) for the lich to spawn on floods. Then, if the lich takes control of a planet, and only then, can they stay on that particular planet. 

 

Hoping that DE fixes this ... mess... as someone who greatly enjoys playing it, I am considering quitting if this is the path Warframe is taking, I play games to have fun, not to simulate an unpaid, unfun job of a task I used to enjoy.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Tinklzs

[OGXenos]

My personal biggest complaint is that a Lich can completely rob you of a well-deserved Sortie reward and you have zero control over it. I just started Sorties recently, and two days ago the final Vay Hek assassination took place on Earth. I have no control over that. I also have no control over which planet my Lich decides to take over. It happened to be Earth. I got to watch as after I hit a super rewarding high point (A team of me and three other randoms did all three missions in a row), my elation crashed down through the floor to sheer disbelief and utter hatred as the Lich yoinked my Riven and ran away. I'm still at that point where getting Rivens is a big thing for me, not just a normal part of playing the game, and I'm still furious about it. Now I am FORCED to slog my way through the entire Lich grind (This is my first Lich), which includes getting all the reqiuem mods and dying repeatedly to said Lich while I lose even more rewards, just to get back the Riven that I already earned fair and square. This is not how you give a player incentive to do your content. This is the type of possible RNG that can make a player put down a game and NEVER come back.

[Hardwood]

This is hands down the worst thing they have ever done. It is the first time since launch that they've implemented something that I have zero interest in interacting with.

The endless layers of repetitive RNG farming seemed tedious but par for the course but the requiem mods having charges is the straw that broke the camels back. Everything about the requiem mods it atrocious design. Randomly trying to figure out the order is absolutely zero fun. The game is built around farming that is fun, there is nothing fun about bashing your head against RNG. Then re-farming mods I've already farmed so that I can keep bashing my head against RNG?

I have never felt less like playing Warframe. This is so bad it is ruining the rest of the game for me.

[Ishredpapers]

They're gonna regret making this casino RNG (expansion, dlc? whatever you call it). People will start leaving in droves since there are free games now like Destiny 2 and its going to drop in player base AGAIN. I cant even find anything to do past 2 am because there's no one online. Trade chat - dead, recruitment chat - slow and on life line. I converted my first lich and i already got sick of the whole mechanics i cant even imagine people who have 2-6 or more liches done. The amount of grind and RNG that went into this is insane. Who in the world made this decision? Who makes these decisions? Do they even play the game themselves?