Other players not engaging their lichs blocking other lich spawns

[Hiirios]

vor 1 Minute schrieb SordidDreams:

It's funny how you go from "the content's easy, just play solo" to "I can't handle this alone, I need a squad to carry me" depending on what's convenient for you.

i never said that 100+ is easy just that it's not that hard. 

i could also say that it's funny that you always say that people who want to fight their lich are selfish while asking people in a squad to screw over the other 3.

it also isn't really easier because you run public missions as it's unclear what level the mission is that you will join so you can actually join 100+. and just guessing the host can handle it is not an answer to anything.

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

i never said that 100+ is easy just that it's not that hard. 

i could also say that it's funny that you always say that people who want to fight their lich are selfish while asking people in a squad to screw over the other 3.

it also isn't really easier because you run public missions as it's unclear what level the mission is that you will join so you can actually join 100+. and just guessing the host can handle it is not an answer to anything.

Splitting hairs now, are we?

Deliberately misrepresenting what the other guy is saying now, are we?

Repeating the same debunked points now, are we?

[Marinara19]

I coulda sworn the other day I fought multiple of them.... Unless they hotfixed that.. 

[Hiirios]

vor 1 Minute schrieb SordidDreams:

Splitting hairs now, are we?

Deliberately misrepresenting what the other guy is saying now, are we?

Repeating the same debunked points now, are we?

says the one who deliberately isn't answering any answers that would refute your point.

why should the majority of players who actually play and want to play harder content suffer because some players don't want to engage in the system while these join other missions that are also likely to be level 100+ anyway?

[zakaryx]

I can totally understand when players are afraid of leveling up their lich with nasty resistances/immunities. 

 

This is why I take Khora to lich missions. Her 2 stunlocks the lich giving you plenty of free headshots. I've had dozens of lower level players thank me for helping them out with their lich. Hell even high level players with really annoying lichs. 

 

Just about every argument about this topic has been repeated at this point so I'm just going to say I hope the devs learn from this. 

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Hiirios said:

says the one who deliberately isn't answering any answers that would refute your point.

why should the majority of players who actually play and want to play harder content suffer because some players don't want to engage in the system while these join other missions that are also likely to be level 100+ anyway?

What part of "we've been through that already" did you not understand? Avoiding a lich does a microscopic amount of harm to the other people in the squad, while stabbing a lich you don't wnat to stab does massive harm to you. Therefore, demanding that people do so is selfish and unreasonable.

[Lakais]

This thread is full on giggles. Sodium mine reopened under new management. Absolutely delish. 

I would propose two things: 

1) Repeatedly downing your Lich for a kill attempt will cause them to get offended and bugger off. This isn't ignoring, but it is an alternate way to "deal" with the Lich. Just running away seems a bit too... "cheap" 

2) Requiem mod charges are depleted even with failed attempts and completely consumed in a successful full combination. This is purely because I feel this current "trial and error" meta is counter to the intended design. The trial and error component should come to play AFTER you find out what the three phrases are, before that, you should be hunting for murmurs. This doesn't stop the current meta from happening, but it does severely hamper it by creating a far more drastic "bleed" on requiem mod stocks. You simply can't afford to try out every mod. 

I am banking on the current version being an alpha. This entire system really doesn't feel like something that would operate properly in our current mission system with the way they are all segregated. 

[Hiirios]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb SordidDreams:

What part of "we've been through that already" did you not understand? Avoiding a lich does a microscopic amount of harm to the other people in the squad, while stabbing a lich you don't wnat to stab does massive harm to you. Therefore, demanding that people do so is selfish and unreasonable.

which doesn't matter because when you play public you are likely to join a mission that could be that high anyway. not to mention that you are likely to have a level one lich at any time because it's that easy to create one. the stealing is also not a big problem considering you get everything back once you kill/convert the lich. and if it's too hard too solo then go public or use something that makes short work of liches, like khora for stunlocking everything.

vor 1 Minute schrieb Lakais:

This thread is full on giggles. Sodium mine reopened under new management. Absolutely delish. 

I would propose two things: 

1) Repeatedly downing your Lich for a kill attempt will cause them to get offended and bugger off. This isn't ignoring, but it is an alternate way to "deal" with the Lich. Just running away seems a bit too... "cheap" 

2) Requiem mod charges are depleted even with failed attempts and completely consumed in a successful full combination. This is purely because I feel this current "trial and error" meta is counter to the intended design. The trial and error component should come to play AFTER you find out what the three phrases are, before that, you should be hunting for murmurs. This doesn't stop the current meta from happening, but it does severely hamper it by creating a far more drastic "bleed" on requiem mod stocks. You simply can't afford to try out every mod. 

I am banking on the current version being an alpha. This entire system really doesn't feel like something that would operate properly in our current mission system with the way they are all segregated. 

the first point is good and something pretty much everyone could agree with. 

the second point however is problematic. could you imagine the S#&$ that gets thrown at DE when the requiems lose a charge when the fight fails? the amound of the mods you need to farm would be way to annoying and i bet many would not even create a lich at that point. i'm also pretty much against the trial and error method but it's the most effective and fastest to kill a lich.

i just hope DE makes changes fast because this could get annoying pretty quick.

[SordidDreams]

1 minute ago, Hiirios said:

which doesn't matter because when you play public you are likely to join a mission that could be that high anyway. not to mention that you are likely to have a level one lich at any time because it's that easy to create one. the stealing is also not a big problem considering you get everything back once you kill/convert the lich. and if it's too hard too solo then go public or use something that makes short work of liches, like khora for stunlocking everything.

I mean... just re-read the previous posts I made. You're literally just repeating old refuted points again.

[Alpha_Tango]

Fourteen Liches so far and I never heard anyone complaining should one choose not to engage. It is not like there is a shortage of nodes for Liches to spawn anyway. Some finished nodes even remain occupied after a run, ready for another pass. I find the notion of blocking someone elses Lich when more thralls can spawn from it too petty to be bothered about.

[Lakais]

2 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

the first point is good and something pretty much everyone could agree with. 

the second point however is problematic. could you imagine the S#&$ that gets thrown at DE when the requiems lose a charge when the fight fails? the amound of the mods you need to farm would be way to annoying and i bet many would not even create a lich at that point. i'm also pretty much against the trial and error method but it's the most effective and fastest to kill a lich.

i just hope DE makes changes fast because this could get annoying pretty quick.

That's kind of the point. We SHOULDN'T be farming Liches. They should be farming US. There are many conceptual issues I have with this system that I don't see a fix for, but one thing I do see is this immediate diminishing and watering down of content by simple cheese tactics like the TnE method that can be addressed. If someone has the mods, perfect! More power to them to spend up all their mods trying them out because one of many issues this game has is related to excessive stockpiling. 

This system was JUST NOW put in. If there ever was a time to make sweeping changes, come hell or high water, it is now, before people have invested far too much of... whatever people get invested about enough to come raging to the forums for, to make these systems too ingrained to the core system. 

Hell! There's a non-zero chance that the system we got is deliberately borked because it's not meant to be used on the current star-chart system but with Empyrian. 

[AbyssalNaga]

12 liches in and after reading this thread and having a good laugh, it seems like someone really needs to properly do their homework instead just reading and pretending that they actually understand whats going on after 1 lich.

So speaking from personal experience here, it is actually easier to get rid of a lich by trial and error. Chances are you would unlock at least 1 of the mods required without getting enough murmur(even with the updated murmur adjustments).
Liches also seem more likely to spawn in pugs than they do in solo from multiple tests.
If you are playing a pug, its more than likely someone has a game open and you just join their game. Doesn't even matter if you lich is level 1 or 5 since enemy level scales with the host, the content wouldn't be too hard. You most likely wont be doing a lot of damage to your lich either since other players are around. All you really have to do is to farm up all the requiem mods beforehand and stab the guy, that's it.

AND NOW FOR SOME INFLAMMATORY WORDS: 

Spoiler

Stab it and failed? Lich got harder? Missions got tougher? YOU'RE IN A PUG. IT DOESN'T MATTER.
> Missions don't get harder unless you're host, you can always choose to bail until you find an open team.
Getting taxed endlessly?
> Kill the lich faster and you get back the taxed items and NEVER start the mode again if you are not prepared for the grind.
Lack gear and not ready for content?
> Octavia + Tatsu works wonders. You would have access to these shortly after you finish 'The War Within'

Literally nothing the lich does has a really big impact on your game. Stabbing it wont exactly make your game harder either. The only thing would be to watch yourself die to a grineer in shame.

[White_Matter]

14 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I agree, and that is exactly why you shouldn't demand that people stab their liches when they don't want to, because doing that makes that person suffer a lot more than not doing it makes you suffer.

Same goes for getting a guaranteed shot at it. If you want to make sure your lich will spawn, simply play solo. Then you don't have to rudely and selfishly demand that someone else screw themselves over for your benefit.

What you are saying makes no sense. Squad play allows players to take down liches alot easier. Ignoring the Lich requires no squad play.

You are basically playing with squadmates to get murmur faster, but when it comes to dealing with their liches you want to bail out. That is the mentality of a selfish player. You have to pick either one of the two. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Only that it doesn't. You are equating solo play to squad play, there lies the fallacy.

If you are playing in a squad, you have to think of your squadmates. So if your lich spawns first, and you not confronting it will result in rest of your squadmates Lches not appearing, then you are simply being selfish. You have to "Take one for the team."

And yes, like you said, if you simply don't care about your squad mates, playing solo is always an option. 

And if you are the only one that needs the lich, you are the selfish one for killing him or yourself since your squad will miss out on murmurs.

As the system is now, there is no one that has a right to demand what another player should or shouldnt do since both sides are impacted negatively to the same degree depending where they are in the progress of their lich. 

So if you want things a specific way, go solo, otherwise take the chance with pugs like most people do.

 

[Williams]

I think they will move kuva lich fight to another place like his own ship. So we just need wait Empyrean update.

[White_Matter]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And if you are the only one that needs the lich, you are the selfish one for killing him or yourself since your squad will miss out on murmurs.

As the system is now, there is no one that has a right to demand what another player should or shouldnt do since both sides are impacted negatively to the same degree depending where they are in the progress of their lich. 

So if you want things a specific way, go solo, otherwise take the chance with pugs like most people do.

 

You quoted the wrong post.

Anyways thats not how it works. If I kill my lich, the next in line spawns. Thrall spawn is capped anyways, in most cases you stop getting murmur a couple of minutes in.

As the system is now, killing a Lich is easier with a squad and allows the rest of the Liches to spawn(if you are the last in line then it doesn't matter anyways). If you don't plan on killing your lich then simply playing solo is the best option, but if you can't help but want to get murmur faster then you'll have to consider your squad mates as well. That is just common sense.

Wanting it both ways(getting murmur with a squad but also not allowing their liches to spawn) is extremely selfish and it contradicst the essence of warframe gameplay.

[SneakyErvin]

17 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

You quoted the wrong post.

Anyways thats not how it works. If I kill my lich, the next in line spawns. Thrall spawn is capped anyways, in most cases you stop getting murmur a couple of minutes in.

As the system is now, killing a Lich is easier with a squad and allows the rest of the Liches to spawn(if you are the last in line then it doesn't matter anyways). If you don't plan on killing your lich then simply playing solo is the best option, but if you can't help but want to get murmur faster then you'll have to consider your squad mates as well. That is just common sense.

Wanting it both ways(getting murmur with a squad but also not allowing their liches to spawn) is extremely selfish and it contradicst the essence of warframe gameplay.

And why is the lich killing more important? You fail to actually explain that part.

I can answer you on that question though. It isnt more important, each is as valueble as the other when you are puging. If you head into a pug with a specific priority you are doing it wrong. Lich missions are of a double nature, so you accept what happens in there regarding liches and thralls while carrying on with the mission specific to the node. No one has a say over another player due to this reason.

When (hopefully soon), the dual nature of these nodes is removed, then we can start talking about proper behavior when hunting liches, but as it stands currently there is no proper behavior because each and every member of the pug is as valueble as the other. So if that player that has his lich pop really doesnt need it or himself killed at that point in time, he is doing 100% the correct thing by ignoring it. Just as you, who may need to unlock a kill order, or have your order ready to end the lich is free to do so when he pops, even if it means less spawns for the team.

Soloing or premades are for those that want the perfect outcome for their task, which applies to both murmur grinders and lich killers/killees. If you accept whatever happens, then PuGs are the way, which also means you leave your demands at the door since there are already venues available for specific gameplay approaches in solo and premades.

[White_Matter]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And why is the lich killing more important? You fail to actually explain that part.

I didn't because I thought it required no explanation. Confronting your lich can make the chore of killing it alot shorter in two ways.

1 - You can actually get lucky and get the combination right(or some of it)

2 -Even if you are combination is wrong, the next time you find a clue, you may have an idea which slot it should or shouldn't be in.

 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I can answer you on that question though. It isnt more important

It is though, because it is smarter thing to do, and more squad friendly.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

When (hopefully soon), the dual nature of these nodes is removed, then we can start talking about proper behavior when hunting liches, but as it stands currently there is no proper behavior because each and every member of the pug is as valueble as the other. So if that player that has his lich pop really doesnt need it or himself killed at that point in time, he is doing 100% the correct thing by ignoring it. Just as you, who may need to unlock a kill order, or have your order ready to end the lich is free to do so when he pops, even if it means less spawns for the team.

That is completely subjective on your part.

You just think it is ok to neglect your squad mates because the system isn't very well thought out. 

Instead of making the lives of your squadmates harder, what you can do is propose a solution on the feedback forums and play solo for a while. 

That way no one gets hurt.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Soloing or premades are for those that want the perfect outcome for their task, which applies to both murmur grinders and lich killers/killees. If you accept whatever happens, then PuGs are the way, which also means you leave your demands at the door since there are already venues available for specific gameplay approaches in solo and premades.

Soloing is the better option for those who aren't going to take one for the team because they are either too weak or lazy. Hence called solo. You won't risk disrupting others gameplays and you can run away everytime your rank 1 lich shows up. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

57 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

I didn't because I thought it required no explanation. Confronting your lich can make the chore of killing it alot shorter in two ways.

1 - You can actually get lucky and get the combination right(or some of it)

2 -Even if you are combination is wrong, the next time you find a clue, you may have an idea which slot it should or shouldn't be in.

 

It is though, because it is smarter thing to do, and more squad friendly.

That is completely subjective on your part.

You just think it is ok to neglect your squad mates because the system isn't very well thought out. 

Instead of making the lives of your squadmates harder, what you can do is propose a solution on the feedback forums and play solo for a while. 

That way no one gets hurt.

Soloing is the better option for those who aren't going to take one for the team because they are either too weak or lazy. Hence called solo. You won't risk disrupting others gameplays and you can run away everytime your rank 1 lich shows up. 

 

That all implies that every player actually follows the same pattern. On my first lich I completely ignored relics, aside from getting them from floods, until I had all 3 mods for him unlocked. There was absolutely no way for me to gain anything on downing myself on my lich.

There is also nothing more squad friendly with killing yourself on the lich unless you run with people that you know need their lich killed. Because if I do down myself on the lich, we drag out the thrall spawns aswell, turning the mission into a crawl. It then also stops my lich from spawning in the next few missions, slowing down progress even further. And no, the 10x wont make up for that. This also makes the rest of the group suffer when someone that needs to down their lich does it in a public game, it has the same impact on the rest as ignoring your lich has on those that need their lich killed.

So the whole "take one for the team" goes both ways since there are two different things people need. Both sides are currently making it harder for the other due to how the system is designed. And both sides have as much right to what they need as the other. No one has a right to dictate which way is the correct one in this case.

And there is nothing subjective about what I said since it is exactly what it is, hence why we have people from both sides here seeing the experiencing negative effects due to how the system is designed.

So again, your way isnt more correct or important than the other way, they both impact players negatively no matter what you think, so they are both equally bad in the end aslong as this system stays. So if you want to avoid that, dont do PuGs. It is also not about weak or lazy, it is about reliable efficiency first and foremost, which kinda goes down the dumpster when you end yourself on your lich. If they add something that makes suicide by lich worthwhile things will probably change, but right now it is just more RNG regarding if it pays off or not.

[Ced23Ric]

Why do I get the feeling the majority of people in here either didn't play the system, or can't math?

Liches cap at Rank 5. After 4 stabs, they're maxed out and won't level up further.

Ranking up a Lich makes them spread to more areas, giving you a wider range of missions, and let's you avoid MobDef of your Lich can radiation proc. More choice, for faster enrage by doing Rescue/Capture/Exterm, or more Affinity, via Surv/Def. Also, you can avoid Spy entirely if that ain't your thing.

Host Lich rank determines enemy level in mission. You can play public with a rank 5 Lich and face lvl 40 enemies, you can have a rank 2 Lich and face lvl 100 enemies. The pool of Lich missions isn't split into level ranges.

Stabbing a Lich gives 10 Murmurs. If you have all runes and bruteforce slot 1, you have 80/150 Murmurs just from doing that. To face your Lich 8 times, you would need about 15 to 20 missions. That's about 150 Murmurs, putting you well above 150 with the stabs combined.

If you stab your Lich, you progress faster and eliminate runes faster than grinding 150 Thralls, and if you play public, your Lich rank's effect on mission level is RNG - host or nah.

I'm 28 Liches, 10 weapons and 2 Ephemera in, and people that don't stab their Liches harm themselves the most, and others right after that. Even if you have no runes at all equipped you get those 10 stabbing Murmurs, and the rank up spread for missions.

There.

[Pouf82]

Not killing liches can be worth it too.

In disruption or survival, if you keep your lich, they are more thrall spawn.

Only 5 thralls will give 5 murmur to everybody instead of 10 murmur for the guy who kill the lich and a chance to see one more lich.

And in survival/disruption with all the mobs coming to one place, you'll easily have more than 10 thralls spawn if your lich spawn in the beginning of the mission.

You've also a chance to have requiem relics doing that.

 

There are also case where it's just dumb to kill your lich, for exemple when you'll uncover a new word in the mission.

Why killing it and reset his enrage bar so you'll wait between 5 and 10 mission to see it again ? 

 

Yes level 5 liches doesn't reset their enrage bar but it could be a bug ^^ promoting dumbless kills seems fishy to me.

 

Anyway I'm usually killing my liches between lvl 3 and 4 and I've tried the other way, it's not slower farming the murmur and keeping the lich.

As you said you did 28 liches, I did 31 I've 11 weapons no ephemera and more than 150 relics so words farming is easy when I need one

 

Btw I don't complain when I need to help people kill their level 5 liches and I see them failing first word , the only people who are complaining are the people who want "a chance" to see their liches.

And by complaining, I've seen some people leaving the mission or insult the others.

Your lich Your rules, My lich mine. (and I don't think we're the people in the wrong)

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Pouf82

[Thando]

You want me to "kill" my lvl 3 lich?

Tell DE to stop the stupidity of _killing_ me for doing it with a combination I know is sure to be a failed attempt. 

It beyond incompetent game design. 

[White_Matter]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That all implies that every player actually follows the same pattern. On my first lich I completely ignored relics, aside from getting them from floods, until I had all 3 mods for him unlocked. There was absolutely no way for me to gain anything on downing myself on my lich.

There is also nothing more squad friendly with killing yourself on the lich unless you run with people that you know need their lich killed. Because if I do down myself on the lich, we drag out the thrall spawns aswell, turning the mission into a crawl. It then also stops my lich from spawning in the next few missions, slowing down progress even further. And no, the 10x wont make up for that. This also makes the rest of the group suffer when someone that needs to down their lich does it in a public game, it has the same impact on the rest as ignoring your lich has on those that need their lich killed.

So the whole "take one for the team" goes both ways since there are two different things people need. Both sides are currently making it harder for the other due to how the system is designed. And both sides have as much right to what they need as the other. No one has a right to dictate which way is the correct one in this case.

And there is nothing subjective about what I said since it is exactly what it is, hence why we have people from both sides here seeing the experiencing negative effects due to how the system is designed.

So again, your way isnt more correct or important than the other way, they both impact players negatively no matter what you think, so they are both equally bad in the end aslong as this system stays. So if you want to avoid that, dont do PuGs. It is also not about weak or lazy, it is about reliable efficiency first and foremost, which kinda goes down the dumpster when you end yourself on your lich. If they add something that makes suicide by lich worthwhile things will probably change, but right now it is just more RNG regarding if it pays off or not.

Again, confronting the Lich actually makes the process shorter even if you get terrible RNG and can't get any of the combinations right(which happened to me once). Like the above poster mentioned, increased murmur alone makes a huge difference. I've tried both methods(unwillingly of course, but in one my Lich runs my lich only spawned 3 times in total), and murmur farm without the lich attempt boost takes up too long, especially in the last clue. By the time you reach the last clue, if have put a few attempts in, with some luck, you won't even have to farm all murmur.

Also in most squads I've been in people were eager to kill their lich and it was only a handful people who wanted to ignore them(unluckly though a handful people can halt the progress of many). Meaning on one side, you have a few players negatively impacting the game play of many, and on the other side many players negatively impacting the gameplay of a handful. 

Going by your pragmatic way of thinking, in this deprived system, choosing the lesser evil is the most sensible outcome.

Edited November 13, 2019 by White_Matter

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Again, confronting the Lich actually makes the process shorter even if you get terrible RNG and can't get any of the combinations right(which happened to me once). Like the above poster mentioned, increased murmur alone makes a huge difference. I've tried both methods(unwillingly of course, but in one my Lich runs my lich only spawned 3 times in total), and murmur farm without the lich attempt boost takes up too long, especially in the last clue. By the time you reach the last clue, if have put a few attempts in, with some luck, you won't even have to farm all murmur.

Also in most squads I've been in people were eager to kill their lich and it was only a handful people who wanted to ignore them(unluckly though a handful people can halt the progress of many). Meaning on one side, you have a few players negatively impacting the game play of many, and on the other side many players negatively impacting the gameplay of a handful. 

Going by your pragmatic way of thinking, in this deprived system, choosing the lesser evil is the most sensible outcome.

It doesnt take too long without the 10x. Why you percieved it as such is because others were probably offing themselves or their lich so the group couldnt benefit from the thrall spawns. As I said, it is negatively impacting someone in the group no matter which approach you actually take. So if you dont do a premade or run solo, you arent really sure who is effected negatively by the actions of the group. So in both cases, if you want something done a specific way and cant just go with whatever happens, then make a premade or go solo where everyone shares the same goal.

This isnt about lich hunters going solo or in premades, this is about lich hunters and murmur hunters going solo or in premades if they cant stand the chance/risk that pugs provide.

And the poster above is thinking out of a "me" perspective. It doesnt apply to pugs. Yes, you will get your runes unlocked in less runs, but it also means you should be willing to stay longer in each of those runs to give everyone the same chance to spawn their lich and stab it. Personally I rather speedrun several missions in that same time while knowing my lich will spawn regularly and provide me thralls.

[(PSN)DEATHrocket777]

If you're in a squad, and your Kuva Lich spawns, please do everyone else a favor and fight it. If you win, you win. If you die, you and everyone else gets a murmur, and someone else gets a chance at having their Kuva Lich spawn in. Also there's an achievement/trophy for killing a lich at rank 5, so you might as well let it grow, they're not that hard to kill, especially if you're taking advantage of their weaknesses.

Now, if you're on the receiving end of someone who just absolutely will not fight their Lich, there are a few things you can do:
1: Accept it and move on (but why would you? Someone's wasting your time now, why not waste theirs?)
2: If you're in a party/voice chat with the rest of your team, just don't go to extraction. Turn the tables on the selfish little bugger and waste their time instead. Time-out the mission if you have to, screw that guy! They're cutting into your Kuva Lich hunting, if you have the time to spare, give back what they're giving everyone else they meet: wasted time.
3: Block/ignore and report if you're feeling froggy, especially if they blatantly don't care that others aren't getting their spawns.

Been putting up with this kind of behavior since the update dropped on console and it's driving me nuts. It's literally no big deal if you can't kill it now, just kill it later and let someone else get a shot.

Put on a show for us and JUST DIE ALREADY.