The problem of Kuva Liches and Forced Death.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Liches can kill you. And this death bypasses every anti-death mechanic in the game. You could be an Inaros with a Vasca kavat and have Phoenix Renewal applied to you and still die without a bleed-out state.

This would be fine, if not for one major problem: The only way to figure out the order of the Requiem mods is Trial and Error.

This is unacceptable. The only reason players should die is because they were not skilled enough, or didn't prepare for the mission. You cannot figure out the order of the requiem mods before trying them on your lich, which means you will be killed most of the time, even if you have the right mods, because you don't know the order.

How many times? Well, assuming you have all 3 known mods, you will die up to 3 times to figure out the first mod, and up to 2 times to figure out the second mod. You can have all of the information the game will give you, and be as prepared and skilled as possible, and RNG can still kill you 5 times!

My suggestion: Either

1. Make the requiems reveal themselves to you in the order they should be applied, or
2. Make the lich not be able to kill you if you have the right mods, but the wrong order, or
3. Give us some way to figure out the order outside of trial and error.

Forcing player deaths is never acceptable in a game. It feels contrived, and removes the player's sense of controlling their character.

Edited November 4, 2019 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[Emolition]

I see no problem with this its not like you have 3 or 4 revives per mission(not per day like old times).

[she3py]

I am with OP here. Sure, we may have plenty of revives. But forced deaths without them having any kind of relevance is just bad game design.

[Biotic_Prototype_6]

Forced death is ok because you have 4~6 revives[2].

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

12 hours ago, Emolition said:

I see no problem with this its not like you have 3 or 4 revives per mission(not per day like old times).

12 hours ago, slotschii said:

this. like: you have 4-6 revives and the kuva lich steals 1 per mission. who cares?!

8 hours ago, Biotic_Prototype_6 said:

Forced death is ok because you have 4~6 revives[2].

How is this different from saying that it is ok to steal someones car as long as they have 4-6 of them? Or that it is ok to extort money from someone just because they have a paycheck? Or that it is ok to steal something from a business because 'they'll get more'? Or that poaching/illegal logging is ok because more will grow back?

It's not that it can't be managed, or that it is overly harmful to the player. It's that it's bad game design. You are being forced to fail, and for no good reason.

[ClaptoVaughn]

1 hour ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

How is this different from saying that it is ok to steal someones car as long as they have 4-6 of them? Or that it is ok to extort money from someone just because they have a paycheck? Or that it is ok to steal something from a business because 'they'll get more'? Or that poaching/illegal logging is ok because more will grow back?

It's not that it can't be managed, or that it is overly harmful to the player. It's that it's bad game design. You are being forced to fail, and for no good reason.

The difference is those things have real life repurcussions, and this is a #*!%ing video game.

You know what happens when you die in this game? You lose a little affinity, which at worst can be argued is a loss of a couple of minutes of playtime if you want to be petty.

Do I need to explain the REAL LIFE repurcussions of the examples you provided, or can we save everyone a lot of time and just admit you were being overly dramatic as hell?

I was even going to agree with you on principle that player agency shouldn't be taken away due to it impacting immersion and fun, but your real life comparisons are absolutely ridiculous.

Immersion and fun are perfectly reasonable things to argue for in this instance. You're only doing yourself and your argument a massive disservice by trying to compare it to REAL LIFE THEFT AND ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE. 

Even metaphors, analogies, and hypothetical examples can be taken too far. At some point people will just stop taking you seriously even if you have a legitimate point.

Edited November 5, 2019 by ClaptoVaughn

[Emolition]

2 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

How is this different from saying that it is ok to steal someones car as long as they have 4-6 of them? Or that it is ok to extort money from someone just because they have a paycheck? Or that it is ok to steal something from a business because 'they'll get more'? Or that poaching/illegal logging is ok because more will grow back?

It's not that it can't be managed, or that it is overly harmful to the player. It's that it's bad game design. You are being forced to fail, and for no good reason.

For one I don't pay 50k dollars or what a car cost over there for a revive. If I had to pay real money for every revive I lose I would be right behind you complaining but it cost me 0 money and I won't even fail the mission to 1 death as there is more of them.

[DrivaMain]

I know it's not that big of a deal, but it's a very cheap tactic and doesn't really make sense even in Warframe. How can a normal grineer grunt manages to break a back of a Chroma/Rhino but they can withstand a bombardment of gunfire with ease?

Edited November 5, 2019 by DrivaMain

[Silta]

Forcing a player to die to solve a game mechanic is just bad game design. I don't mind them instant killing me but don't MAKE me die for attempting to solve the puzzle. It's not fair at all and essentially punished people for playing the game..

[DoomFruit]

The problem is that of inconsistency with the fundamental basics of good game design. If you die in a video game, it should only ever be because you, the player, have done something wrong.

If you're playing a Sonic game and miss a jump, you could fall off the edge into the abyss and die. The cause of that death is because you mistimed your jump. Purely player error, caused by not taking into account the information presented to you.

Or Unreal Tournament. If you die there, it's because someone got the drop on you, or you took your pistol into a rocket launcher fight, or you just plain didn't have enough health after the last fight.

Those are all consequences of your own actions.

Now take the kuva lich. Big bad monster, toting a powerful (?) weapon, plenty of armour and special magic powers of his own. You could die in that fight, but that's actually fine. You would have had a chance to win (dodging incoming fire, baiting them into a poor situation, or just plain up smashing them to the floor with your 12 forma arca plasmor) and a chance to lose (eating too many bullets and having no backup mechanism to survive).

But say you win that fight. Either through playing well, or through earlier preparation (maxed out gear), you remove all their health.

You've won. Those who defend the lich mechanics: justify why you should now die because of nothing more than a dice roll. Justify why player skill and painstakingly built up equipment should have absolutely zero effect on your survivability.

[Uthael]

First time I've died to my Lich, I was dumbstruck.
I died while carefully trying to execute a downed miniboss enemy. And it happened without any prior indication or a chance to block/evade the killing blow dealt to me. And it was an execute from 100% to 0.

I realized what was happening and decided "Next time I'll incapacitate him for a while and continue my mission".

But the second time I was FORCED into it. It was in a defense mission, with 3 other people. A defense mission can't progress with enemies still alive, no matter how uninterested enemies are in our objective. "Please, kill your lich" popped up in chat, with "F" soon after.

As he was performing his finisher move on me, from his downed state, while I was fully buffed and on 100%, I thought to myself: "I really don't like this person."

[clOWN86]

This Mechanic isn't trial and error, it's forced error. If you were knocked down for having the right rune in the wrong order that'd make sense.

Give us some kind of hint other than a Pass Fail check.

[Kontrollo]

I don't quite see the issue here.

 

These guys are supposed to be our Nemeses.

It's hardly of consequence with 4-6 revives, and if they've rustled (y)our jimmies a bit, then they're doing their job right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited November 6, 2019 by Kontrollo

[CedarDpg]

Yeah, I don't really like the trial and error part at the end with an unlucky guess rewarding you with instant death. I ESPECIALLY don't like when people in the mission guilt trip you/hound you into suiciding (if you don't have the right mods in the right order) because they want/need your lich dead often because the lich is just plain effin' annoying when it hangs around, though sometimes detrimental if it starts attacking a hostage/defense objective/etc. At the bare minimum, there should be some more convenient mechanism to get rid of the lich without being forced to suicide.

[Tenno76856]

No forced death. Ignore Lich. Complete mission. Extract.

[Genoscythe]

Forced death is anticlimatic. You should loose a fixed 70%-90% of your current HP, this makes the message very clear. But getting killed by a melee move with a warframe that can very literally take rockets to the face?

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

3 hours ago, NigglesAU said:

No forced death. Ignore Lich. Complete mission. Extract.

I'm talking about once you have all of the murmurs and are trying to kill/convert it. You have to use trial-and-error to figure out which order they go in.

[Andele3025]

On 2019-11-04 at 7:49 PM, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

My suggestion: Either

1. Make the requiems reveal themselves to you in the order they should be applied, or
2. Make the lich not be able to kill you if you have the right mods, but the wrong order, or
3. Give us some way to figure out the order outside of trial and error.

Forcing player deaths is never acceptable in a game. It feels contrived, and removes the player's sense of controlling their character.

Now im waiting for my lich stuff till DE fully fixes/patches, tho from streams and info id like to add:

Thralls realy should provide that. x for the 3 mods required, 2x more for order, and then more thralls to first unlock their weapon info and to buff its elemental by y% up to the 60%.
DE really should have copied the full Mordor games mechanic (as req mods are just the qte replacement).

[0_The_F00l]

Although the impact of the forced death is not too great, it does leave a bad taste in the mouth. 

I died cause I didn't guess right. 

Atleast give me a way to try and survive even if the lich levels up. 

I do feel it is lacking in forethought 

[DoomFruit]

The question is why you're even dying in the first place. The lich should "die". You've taken away most of their health, you've left them collapsed on the floor and you've shanked them with a certain Ubisoft rip-off weapon.

Now, the lich should only stay dead if you have the right mods. If not, the better way to handle it would be the lich getting up at the end of the mission, body parts knitting back together if applicable, and roaring in anger. Because that's what liches do. They're undying unless you find and destroy the thing in which they keep their soul.

[D06pblH9l]

Yeah it's kinda annoying and unrealistic. He's like beaten up, stands on his knees, you try to execute him and he just stands up and straight up murder your overpowered space ninja ass like it's nothing in addition to a fact that your mates just stand there and watch him do it. More logical outcome would be if he just noped out of there OR the one you killed stays dead, but since grineers are clones, his more powerfull copy comes to continue haunting you and only correct runes can dissipate his kuva energy and stop grineer from imbuing his another clone with this energy, effectively stopping him being a threat to you.

Edited November 7, 2019 by D06pblH9l

[EinheriarJudith]

On 2019-11-05 at 8:07 AM, DoomFruit said:

~snip~

i like this explanation of the situation. a solution would be that when you fail any segments they knock you back gainxp/level and then leave rather than dying

[Dzarael]

At least they need to make QTE system.

>Finish Lich to guess mod;

>Fail;

>Mush buttons to avoid death.

[EinheriarJudith]

11 minutes ago, Dzarael said:

At least they need to make QTE system.

>Finish Lich to guess mod;

>Fail;

>Mush buttons to avoid death.

pass on adding another mini game on top of a mini game.

[DoomFruit]

2 hours ago, Dzarael said:

At least they need to make QTE system.

>Finish Lich to guess mod;

>Fail;

>Mush buttons to avoid death.

I dunno about that. As far as I'm concerned, QTEs are a vile plague upon the face of gaming and should burn for all eternity.