Toxic lich hunter bullies are spreading "badwill", ban them.

[IggySnow]

1 minute ago, Test-995 said:

I need thralls, not the liches, it's all.

Killing liches in 0 second after the spawn doesn't contribute for any of it, so i don't like it (but i don't care it)

okay but that doesn't explain how it makes your games less enjoyable, it just doesn't make your games more enjoyable.

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

okay but that doesn't explain how it makes your games less enjoyable, it just doesn't make your games more enjoyable.

I can't see any difference between those but ok, you don't have to explain it, i'm not interested.

 

[Raqiya]

7 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

No. The whole idea is to solve the requiem puzzle, then take down the lich, then decide what you want to do with it. How you go about solving the puzzle is your call, not the decision of random obnoxious players.

And they put a cap on murmur farming for exactly this reason 🙂, namely that murmur farming is an inherent part of the lich. And it is perfectly viable and totally ok to farm all three requiems without leveling up your lich. That is how it functions, that is how lich missions are built. When you try to take down the lich and under what circumstances is meant to be your call. Not the call of other players joining a mission open for all, without such restrictions on how to play.

No, by joining a common lich mission with randoms where it is perfectly ok to NOT stab your lich they take the risk themselves. If they want to be sure, go solo or with a dedicated squad. It's super easy either way. And that is how specific missions are normally done in Warframe, just check all the missions scrolling by in team chat.

The objective of taking down the lich does not include forcing other players to play according to your "own special rules". It just doesn't. And if it leads into bullying and harassing we are talking a-hole behaviour.

But not killing your lich does exactly that. You're forcing others to play by your own special rules. 

If somone already knew the code or is really close, by not stabbing your lich you're forcing them to not complete the whole objective of the update. getting the requiem/murmurs is only a means of reaching the objective which killing the Lich much like how farming materials is only a means of getting the weapon. 

The original idea of the liches was meant to your personal Nemesis but DE through all those ideas out the window with the way they designed the system. 

If you want to avoid leveling your lich I think it's perfectly valid for you to go solo. Levels are "low" and should be manageable but you shouldn't say Tier 5 "high" level missions should be played solo just because you want to stab lich which is the whole incentive of the update and full of like minded individuals. 

[Remedyheart]

Plain and simple.

Effects of Lich Stab Attempt.

Positives

1. One in eight chance to correct the right req mod. Unlocking this pushes the progression straight to the second mod to reveal. FYI this doesn't eat the current progress on the mod you were working towards.

2. Every stab attempt can grant up to 5-10 murmur. It is still unsure how many a Lich stab attempt can grant upon failure, but evidence shows it provides a big chunk.

3. Stabbing your lich opens up a new sector under kuva influence. This opens up options for prefered missions for the player and makes finding a pub mission much easier.

4. Removing said lich early from a mission with a stab attempt shaves off wasted minutes messing with said lich. Most players understand the usefulness of stab attempts and will aide in defeating a lich in a pub game. Some may even go for minutes which ends up eating away time and grants too much downtime for thralls.

5. Lichs are distracting and not every player can handle them. Sometimes a lich can be too much for a group and may need to be dealt with if possible as to remove them from the mission to complete said node and save all murmurs gathered.

Negatives

1. Your Lich remains low level. The higher the Lich level the faster thralls spawn in the 5 minute time span of any mission. Leaving them level one, or even below level 5, drastically slpws down murmur farming. This was a mechanic DE added to help players in slaying their lich if they were to have too many issues doing so. A sort of rush mechanic that we can utilize.

2. Your lich can potentially push your team into a corner. Yeah not likely and probably never happens. Imagine survival against a Lich with teleport. Or better yet Interception with a lich right smack dab in the middle of the map. Under the right circumstance a lich can jeapordize a mission.

3. The Lich will remain enraged and continue spawning more often. Always being a hindrance a danger and making things more difficult. Dealing with a Lich isn't hard, at least not for me, but that is never always the case. Especially if they keep showing up every mission and the owner refuses to stab them.

4. Wasted time and opportunities. Stabbing early should be a practice habit for lich hunters. After reciving your first revealed mod players can take this time to start experimenting and shorten the Seauence guessing portion of the hunt. This way you don't have to do 3 or 4 extra missions just swapping around 3 mods.

Stab your lich.

[Remedyheart]

Just now, Raqiya said:

But not killing your lich does exactly that. You're forcing others to play by your own special rules. 

If somone already knew the code or is really close, by not stabbing your lich you're forcing them to not complete the whole objective of the update. getting the requiem/murmurs is only a means of reaching the objective which killing the Lich much like how farming materials is only a means of getting the weapon. 

The original idea of the liches was meant to your personal Nemesis but DE through all those ideas out the window with the way they designed the system. 

If you want to avoid leveling your lich I think it's perfectly valid for you to go solo. Levels are "low" and should be manageable but you shouldn't say Tier 5 "high" level missions should be played solo just because you want to stab lich which is the whole incentive of the update and full of like minded individuals. 

Hey no one's forcing you to be rude.

But they are asking.

You're at least missing out...sooo...and have you ever gotten help that wasn't a handout? 

[Raqiya]

2 minutes ago, Remedyheart said:

Hey no one's forcing you to be rude.

But they are asking.

You're at least missing out...sooo...and have you ever gotten help that wasn't a handout? 

What? I'm not trying to be rude or trying to attack others. I'm only trying to prove my point. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Raqiya

[Test-995]

  

3 minutes ago, Remedyheart said:

3. The Lich will remain enraged and continue spawning more often. Always being a hindrance a danger and making things more difficult. Dealing with a Lich isn't hard, at least not for me, but that is never always the case. Especially if they keep showing up every mission and the owner refuses to stab them.

I hope it was true in every case.

[IggySnow]

Just now, Test-995 said:

I can't see any difference between those but ok, you don't have to explain it, i'm not interested.

 

im still gonna explain it for everyone else then because it's important.

lets say someones enjoyment of a mission is 0.

If everyone is killing their liches, it wont effect anyone's enjoyment of the mission. So the mission finishes with 0 enjoyment.

But if 1 player chooses to not kill their lich, then the other 3 players get mad and their enjoyment of the mission goes down by -2. So the mission finishes with -6 enjoyment.

 

This means that by choosing not to kill your lich you have actively made the mission less enjoyable overall.

 

[CuChulainnWD]

To our Tenno community. No one should be banned for DE's incompetence and complete lack of redress to this situation. To t hose  Tenno that feel that taking a cheap death to the lich is a bad thing, we agree, but Mechanically as bad as it is, it is the best course of action to get your lich seen to. DE does need to fix this mechanic as with many others. Holding a team hostage because of your inaction is not fair either, play solo. What you will be missing out on has been addressed by Remedy, and remember, if the Lich seems like he is too tough for YOU alone, you DO have the back up of your fellow Tenno to take them out.

All of that said, there is NO need to go after each others throats over this. Your focus should be towards DE and getting them to get their ass in gear and FIX this hot mess. Calling for bans over understandably frustrated behavior by both divides involved is not going to get this fixed. Scream at DE like rabid dogs, not each other. Stand United, we ALL LIFT TOGETHER.

Edited November 17, 2019 by CuChulainnWD

[AnuKaneDai]

à l’instant, SordidDreams a dit :

If that were true, it wouldn't become accessible when the player arrives at Sedna, when they're doing level 30-ish content.

That the problem in warframe
In every other game you avoid consciously HL zone when you can, because you know you get rekt.
Warframe the limitation are based on the quest requierement. So you can have mr4 or 6 on lich mission. yes, it is possible.

The problem in warframe it's that you can leech or get PL too easely so, a lot of greedy noob try to reach the HL rewards ASAP.

The good point would be that the matchmaking try to put people with same MR altogether. (outside premade groupe)
So you will have only noob with theyr sponsor with HL, wich is totally acceptable to have an HL who garanty to carry a friend or a noob who need help.

But, by placing people with same MR or with 5 or 10 mr range. Noob would be placed together. And fail HL missions that they are not supposed to do.
Then being pushed to think twice before greeding about rewards and HL content

Actually it's "I dont care to go in HL place beacuse I gonna go in public and people gonna carry me anyway"

It must be "well, I dont have knowledge and stuff to go there even if I want the reward. I need to rank up and got better stuff first"

News Tennos are too much mixed with older ones and theyr is no real limite between low lvl et high lvl place. People dont make difference.
Then come un HL place. Then go in a tantrum when they are asked to do what you have to do in HL because they cant.

[Nightcorefreakz]

Just attempt the stab, you (and you alone, that why people want you to get rid if your Lich) get Murmur progress. Sure they level up and become harder to kill but just play Inaros for that.

[MPonder]

Having people be placed on same MR would be not good for reasons, like:

1- Getting full random group when farming relics/traces, because you want 3 other people, no matter the MR, to maybe get also a good drop.

2- Getting full group when leveling equipament or farming resources, like I usually level up my stuff on Helena - Saturn also to get nanos.

In the end, most of the time, you just need people to get more XP/loot, team work in Warframe is so necessary that you don't give a #*!% about a MR 3 on your squad, as long as it is a full squad.

-------------------------

Btw, if someone get in your lich missions, doesn't this mean he also have a lich that control that planet? Can't you simple die for the lich to make it disappear even if it is not yours? I remember dying for a lich that wasn't mine and he disappeared. 

Since MR doesn't actually represent how geared someone's warframe is, for that we would need an "Item Level" stat like Tera.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MPonder

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

10 hours ago, zoffmode said:

While there is clearly no source and you absolutely know this and just asking just to be cheeky and annoying, I'll back it up with my personal experience.

I do my Liches in public quite often and only ever seen one person refuse to kill his Lich. Coincidentally, he was also the only one being toxic in all of my Lich missions.

Im not just being cheeky and annoying but it's common if you're going to provide  numbers or statistics to a claim it'd be smart to have the data to back it up. Someone's personal experiences while they do matter don't make up for the issue at hand. While one can say "oh people kill liches in my missions. There are also a plethora of people saying "I can't even find people in publics to run a lich mission with"  or "people won't kill liches" so with that being said if you're going to bring numbers into something also be ready to provide your source / statistics on the regualrb 

[zoffmode]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Im not just being cheeky and annoying but it's common if you're going to provide  numbers or statistics to a claim it'd be smart to have the data to back it up. Someone's personal experiences while they do matter don't make up for the issue at hand. While one can say "oh people kill liches in my missions. There are also a plethora of people saying "I can't even find people in publics to run a lich mission with"  or "people won't kill liches" so with that being said if you're going to bring numbers into something also be ready to provide your source / statistics on the regualrb 

Funnily enough, I missed PS4 tag in your name while reading your post and assumed you knew the answer from playing on PC. I still think it's silly to request data on something so apparent the moment you do a few Lich missions, but I can see why you would want actual numbers now. My apologies.

[White_Matter]

19 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

 

The fact that you can't understand or relate to their reasons does not make them invalid.

 

If I didn't understand it, then I wouldn't be able to refute it, which I did.

There would be no progress if mankind evolved through relating to absurdity. Sometimes you just have to point out whats wrong with someone elses reasoning and move on.

[Sintag]

So, to the 'STAB YOUR LICH BLIND' crowd, let me ask, did you crunch the numbers behind your rationale?  Because I just did, and the final answer I got was 44.  At absolute worst, you will stab your Lich 44 times if you do it blind.  8 times 3 plus 7 times 2 plus 6.  24, plus 14, plus 6.  8 mods and 3 slots, then 7 mods over 2 slots, then 6 mods over a single.  So, I'm gonna say something right now.

If you go into a pub, and expect the guy with no Murmurs, who was there to farm them even, to get the first Requiem and eliminate one of these numbers, to instead take a one-in-8 gamble that, if failed, will make the Lich even stronger, and berate them for being understandably not up for it, especially if they fill out a Murmur and stand to gain literally nothing from the gamble?  You're the problem here.   There are two cases for not doing a stab on your Lich.  The first is if you've got no Requiems figured out, and the second is if your Murmur ring is full and you'll gain an idea of what Requiem is required, bypassing some of the random chance.

tl;dr:  You joined a pub, you're not the boss.  If you want your Lich dead, make a squad of like-minded people in Recruiting, since there's always gonna be people looking to kill their Lich off and have it decoded.  Otherwise, put up or shut up, you're not my boss.

[MPonder]

5 minutes ago, Sintag said:

So, to the 'STAB YOUR LICH BLIND' crowd, let me ask, did you crunch the numbers behind your rationale?  Because I just did, and the final answer I got was 44.  At absolute worst, you will stab your Lich 44 times if you do it blind.  8 times 3 plus 7 times 2 plus 6.  24, plus 14, plus 6.  8 mods and 3 slots, then 7 mods over 2 slots, then 6 mods over a single.  So, I'm gonna say something right now.

If you go into a pub, and expect the guy with no Murmurs, who was there to farm them even, to get the first Requiem and eliminate one of these numbers, to instead take a one-in-8 gamble that, if failed, will make the Lich even stronger, and berate them for being understandably not up for it, especially if they fill out a Murmur and stand to gain literally nothing from the gamble?  You're the problem here.   There are two cases for not doing a stab on your Lich.  The first is if you've got no Requiems figured out, and the second is if your Murmur ring is full and you'll gain an idea of what Requiem is required, bypassing some of the random chance.

tl;dr:  You joined a pub, you're not the boss.  If you want your Lich dead, make a squad of like-minded people in Recruiting, since there's always gonna be people looking to kill their Lich off and have it decoded.  Otherwise, put up or shut up, you're not my boss.

It is not like that, and you won't need the lich to appear that much because you can stab him more than one time per appearance, if you have already guessed the first 1 or 2 mods of the combination, usually at the 8 encounter, I was with the full combination.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MPonder

[SordidDreams]

30 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

If I didn't understand it, then I wouldn't be able to refute it

Which is why you didn't. You just mistakenly think you did, precisely because you don't understand it.

[Shaden73]

All of this can be fixed if they remove the death penalty. If [DE] is still keen on the idea of our defeat having consequences, just add a temporary debuff for the mission.  

[MPonder]

@Sintag

Stabbing the lich is better. Imagine that before I get the first requiem from murmur, I already tested Vome and Riss, when I finally got the murmur, it appear Vome. So I already know that Vome is not the first requiem, If I didn't stab my lich before the first murmur, I'd still have to test Vome just to see it isn't the first, and will still need to do more 6 test at least to have the right one. With me always stabbing, all I have to do is more 5 test to have the right one.

Not only you get murmur from it, your lich dominate more planets, which will be more survive missions/mobiile, which gives more murmur than others I think. Plus, your lich level up, first levels, you lose too much "anger" bar everytime he kills you, so you really don't want your lich with a full "anger" bar before he kills you, it is a waste of Thrall's kill time, because you probably gonna have to start "angering" him from the beginning again, Lv 5, you don't lose too much "anger" bar, so I really liked when the lichs leveled up fast, so he appear more often to force the combination.

[Sintag]

30 minutes ago, MPonder said:

It is 44 times, but you won't need the lich to appear that much because you can stab him more than one time, if you have already guessed the first 1 or 2 mods of the combination, usually at the 8 encounter, I was with the full combination.

I'm assuming you fail every stab, in sequence.  Like I said, I'm calculating the absolute worst-case scenario here.  I think people shouldn't stab blindly and hope they can win their own gamble here; At bare minimum, you should figure out your first Requiem and then begin stabbing.  If that fails, you can still reduce your bases for the math by one across the board, and depending on where that actually goes, you can reduce your multiples by one as well.  You then farm murmurs.  Get the second mod.  Socket it in slot 1.  If it fails, reduce your mathematics again and get the third mod.

Or, to crunch MORE numbers and be definitive on the math for why I say, 'get the first Requiem and begin stabbing then and only then':

Quote

 

Stab with no Murmurs: 8 * 3 + 7 * 2 + 6.  Forty-four.

Figure out Requiem 1, goes into Slot 1
7 * 2 + 6 remains, for 20 possible combinations. 
If you keep a random Requiem mod and that also fails, it's 19 combinations.  You now know that mod doesn't go in that slot, but you're still blind.  Maybe it goes into Slot 3, you don't know.
Figure out Requiem 1, goes into other slot on Parazon
7 * 2 (Since you know the what but not the where and you know one of the slots is taken by a Requiem, cutting 1 mod and 1 slot)
Plus 7 * 2 (Two slots, seven Mods remain and you're still blind)
Plus 6 (Last mod, one slot).
This comes out to 34 combinations, which is still bad, but it's better than 44 combinations.

Then:
Figure out Requiem 2, goes into Slot 1, first Requiem succeeds, second Requiem fails:

Since you now know your first and, through slotting Requiem 1 into Slot 2, you now know your third slot, six combinations remain.

Figure out Requiem 2, but this too fails in Slot 1:

6, then add 2 more possible combinations, since it's possible you aligned what you know in the wrong spots, requiring an embarrassed swap.

Figure out Requiem 3, Slot 1, works, but Requiem 2 fails
You now know your combination, congrats.
Figure out Requiem 3, it all works:
You done did a murder.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Sintag

[MPonder]

It is 44 times stab at least, but you are going to stab him more than one time per appearance, it is just a few seconds between them, all you have to do is get rid of 1 HP bar. You making it sound so bad.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MPonder

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 hours ago, zoffmode said:

Funnily enough, I missed PS4 tag in your name while reading your post and assumed you knew the answer from playing on PC. I still think it's silly to request data on something so apparent the moment you do a few Lich missions, but I can see why you would want actual numbers now. My apologies.

I've played on pc being that I do have a pc account (pc can't run warframe and I'm low Mr so I don't really play on it atm) and I go to my friends house every now and then to play on his so I have experienced the update firsthand. Regardless speaking from experience isn't enough to say "this is what's happening" especially talking in margins of the community itself. I can say speaking from experience with the new update tonfas are the best weapon because "every mission ive done long survivals in they've performed real good" but there is no factual evidence to back up my claim

[MPonder]

@sintag

You have to gamble even with the 3 murmur already discovered. Do this, Try stabbing and see if it goes faster. How long it takes for you to get a lich without stabbing? Because if you don't stab, you don't get more missions.

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

All of that said, there is NO need to go after each others throats over this. Your focus should be towards DE and getting them to get their ass in gear and FIX this hot mess. Calling for bans over understandably frustrated behavior by both divides involved is not going to get this fixed. Scream at DE like rabid dogs, not each other. Stand United, we ALL LIFT TOGETHER.

Well said!

But you know, idiots have to idiot.