Warframe Conclave - The Old Blood Experience

[Sevek7]

It's so sad to see warframe PvP at such a low point. Conclave is the most unique arena shooter I've ever played, and the conclave community is awesome. It's also the only mode with longevity, since every PvE mode becomes boring if you grind it enough. Conclave is the cure for "content drought" - it's the content that keeps contenting! The developers take years to fix the bugs, which makes people give up on the mode, so then the conclave community is small when the bugs are fixed. Then the community starts growing again, until the next round of bugs, which take another year to fix. Treating the lack of PvP popularity as a "interesting factoid about the warframe community" is incorrect.  The conclave community is small precisely because of the neglect. There is an entire market of players who enjoy PvP that the game could cater to, and it would require very little resource investment in comparison to the PvE updates. 

Hoping for a better future for the conclave 🙂 

[Rubbertubtub01]

2 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

The conclave community is small precisely because of the neglect.

Preach.

You're exactly correct, 

Can I also add, the fact that this level of broken equipment is in conclave makes it more toxic. Every game just escalates into a cheese fest. Some guy will start off using, say a knockdown combo to get a kill. The player who died will get annoyed and one up them with a slam spam kill, and then that will get one up'd with slide attacks, and then that will get one up'd again until everyone is using their cheesiest loadout they have at the time. And then you can also one up the top level of cheese by adding salt. 

Maybe if this high level of broken equipment wasn't available to us, every game wouldn't descend into chaos. 

[Ande.]

I know it is not important for you, but for our community of players over 2 people it is and we would appreciate it if you would solve at least the previous problems.

https://youtu.be/omXfyWLesH0

https://youtu.be/ijoNMkCo34w

https://youtu.be/_gTTJXU2sSs

Would give us all a better gaming experience, we are not very different between us players and you developers, we both try to improve and expand in the game, all for a common good, we place our hopes on you even with that delay so characteristic

Edited December 6, 2019 by --Q--Ande

[-BG-StormFighter117]

I'm glad someones pointing out the current OP stuff so DE can consider fixing it later. When I did that I just got told to get good and then told the gun I use, snipetron was too OP even though it took 3 shots to kill and other snipers took 1-2. Ez balancing.

Also who's this guy? 
https://gyazo.com/81652200cdb7f1dd40fa80874943b628

Hire this man and give him a raise.

[-Degu]

It's really nice to see so many people interested, really warms my heart up!

Maybe conclave has a proper future ahead of it, I certainly hope so. 

[Neuroszima]

@Kontrollo thanks for the mention earlier.

Among few posts in the other threads that i posted in, this one propably reflects what i think about all of this:

 

The link above doesn't unfortunately show the link to yet another thread that dates back before U26 was launched, and with melee phase 2 i wrote a question:

Will there be any lunaro fixes/changes planned?

I got laughed at under that post, or at least i felt like i was telling some good joke, that in fact wasn't. And unfortunately when update hit, everything that we knew of lunaro broke that day without a warning.

I don't know if those 2 people that go over conclave even exist. @[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Megan, sorry for pings but as a member of the conclave community that is not afraid to ask, and as you are the members of team responsible for contact between us and development team, can you tell us if those people even tested anything in there before the update dropped? Did they test even such things like, if a client makes unstable ball doesn't move? Did they even test if THE VERY STANCE of arcata that broke totaly, and was not clearly not intentional as one of hotfixes mention, will work properly? What about all those stuff with slamspam animation cancelling, ridiculous animtion boosts, and other stuff that other people pointed out (i will not repeat what they said). Who even are they? I haven't seen any response from any DE Staff member under conclave as i go and go and go through forum threads, for months. The last responses i saw are propably those under the dedicated server hosting thread. And i don't even know if they are responsible for conclave balances, or they are just networking Staff, because mostly they answered questions about networking there and console specific responses, not conclave.

If they did not test such simple things, they didn't do their job very well in my eyes. Or they didn't have much time because you redirected tchem to making PvE part of the game, in which it's just frustrating. If this isn't truth, at least you now see what thoughts went through our minds when we received an update and saw sorry state of things.

There is also another thing, that people would or would not think of.

Why even conclave is such enjoyable? Why to lose time for something that meaningless? What does it mean to have an endgame in YOUR (Digital Extremes, this one is for you) game?

I watched some time ago a stream of Tarvier, who's insane Warframe player, and in one of his streams he said:

When there is lack of content, you have to make the content in the game for yourself

What does this mean one can say? He has to basically go out of his way to create any meaningfull challenge for himself. 2:55 Ropalolyst speedruns. 2:57 Orb mother speedruns. Rushing missions. Survive as long as you can. Survive as long as you can solo. Do as long as possible interceptions/arbitrations/whatever. This is what he does.

I approach from the other perspective. Why to even spend time on something that is not enjoyable. For sure level 4000 enemies, staying 4 hours straight in one single mission to test yourself is maybe a good indicator of what one can do. But for me it is repeating the same micro but for extended period of time and vs. growing level enemies. This can't be said for conclave. EVERY OTHER PLAYER THERE is your challenge. THERE IS NO BETTER AI than the one hiding under hair of another human. You won't know if a player is good or not until you face him eye in eye. That is my challenge that keeps me going and trying, and trying my best to overcome some players skill.

12 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

*snip, snip*

Conclave is the cure for "content drought" - it's the content that keeps contenting!

*snip*

Hoping for a better future for the conclave 🙂 

Even players stats aren't telling the whole truth about what you will truly face. I heard about a guy with 100k kills that immidietaly when someone better than him appears  logs off by alt+f4, to avoid unfavorable K/D ratio updates to his stats. There are players with 10000 goals in lunaro, that make 500 goals per week, even when i dont see them in game, because of the regions they set; that only flee when they see anyone else with some stats, because they boost each other. But that's the feedback, not some reporting forum thread, so i'll keep things civil and to the point.

Even though this whole boosting on Oceania exist, i belive in challenge. And i belive most people also belive. If we had even, 5 people redirected to conclave, I'm almost certain all of those things we have problems with nowadays, wouldn't even had happen . And we wouldn't have this discussion. The only condition being, they need to play conclave with us to see the problems we struggle with.

Sorry for this long post but i'd like to say everything that lies in my heart. And i will say one more thing, though, last one.

All this situation reminds me of how the "Trials" were handled. I was the guy that hated conclave at that time, i'll be honest. I think more people played trials than conclave at that time, and i just become (at least i felt like) a part of WFRSB, only to hear that we got to know "temporary future of raids" will include it's removal. I hope this will not happen to conclave now. Trials were endgameish activity that required different mindset than mob sweeping, and a bit of listening from a guy who told what everyone should do, ultimately creating unique experience. The same i got to feel few months earlier (counting nowadays, not 2 years ago) in lunaro, it is unique experience. But touching deep roots of some of the systems like entire melee make changes not only to the PvE side of the game, that you guys seem to be overly concerned about, but to PvP as well. And somehow lunaro, even though it should be a bit separated from all of this (no mods work there, warframes and loadouts are only chosen there for fashion, one and ony one weapon that is somehow "melee" Arcata) broke there too. Exactly like raids broke many times when you switched something. Meanwhile instead of forging players feedback from forums into something positive, like even switching some numbers in riven CC on slide being dependent on modern Maiming Strike (150%) not old one (90%), we get a visual wear/tear slider:

I know there were a lot of bad words said at U26 on farming aspect of Liches, and that you had to fix many things. But ultimately all this wouldn't end up a hot mess on launch if team had a vision, and knew basic repercussions, like what to do with depleted parzon mods (YOU ADDED THIS LATER! THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN HERE ON LAUNCH!), murmur progres being too much, trading liches. The same goes for conclave.

that's all i have to say, for now.

Cheers

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Neuroszima

[Loxyen]

16 hours ago, standardheadache said:

I think the +mag cap not being fully loaded might be a new bug altogether for the list. Post it in!

That happened to me through the past years every now and then, but I'm not sure whether it is caused by a poor host/server or other reasons.

Actually we got to differentiate here. What happened to me back then up until now is:

• On respawn your weapon only has the default amount of shots in the magazine despite the +mag mod being equipped. (iirc I had the same with mods that reduce the magazine size somewhen, but wouldn't bet my kidney on it since its a rather rare case and been a while)

This wasn't too much of a problem, because a simple reload would give you the supposed amount your magazine should hold back.

 

What we got now, whats new beside the holster reload mods not working (only for the host if you're not playing on a server):

• Considering your mag and mag reserve are full, once you've shot and collected ammo before reloading it used to add the already shot amount on your maximum reserve amount to be back to the initial situation. That does not work anymore. It won't let you collect ammo if your reserve is full, until you reload and draw from your reserve.

 

• Another thing is that you don't spawn with fully maxed magazines/-reserves recently too. But iirc that has been around for some months already.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Loxyen

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-12-06 at 3:16 PM, Loxyen said:

That happened to me through the past years every now and then, but I'm not sure whether it is caused by a poor host/server or other reasons.

Actually we got to differentiate here. What happened to me back then up until now is:

• On respawn your weapon only has the default amount of shots in the magazine despite the +mag mod being equipped. (iirc I had the same with mods that reduce the magazine size somewhen, but wouldn't bet my kidney on it since its a rather rare case and been a while)

This wasn't too much of a problem, because a simple reload would give you the supposed amount your magazine should hold back.

 

What we got now, whats new beside the holster reload mods not working (only for the host if you're not playing on a server):

• Considering your mag and mag reserve are full, once you've shot and collected ammo before reloading it used to add the already shot amount on your maximum reserve amount to be back to the initial situation. That does not work anymore. It won't let you collect ammo if your reserve is full, until you reload and draw from your reserve.

 

• Another thing is that you don't spawn with fully maxed magazines/-reserves recently too. But iirc that has been around for some months already.

Thanks for this.

By the way, are there other things we should check?

[Loxyen]

5 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

By the way, are there other things we should check?

Talking about bugs beside a much needed big weapon and ability balance overhaul?

 

• These boosted wall attacks still occur, but not as frequent as they used to before old blood:

Spoiler

Thats a gif from before the old blood update to visualize what I'm talking about. Sadly I did not have any recording software active when that bug occurred after the OB update yet. It happened to me with Tipedo and a single sword so far after the update.

 

• The levitating-state bug

While I try to cut corners better by catching the rear wall of it with a wall latch (e.g. by passing door ways) and the overall given 2nd midair momentum pause beside double jump, that the new air melee gives us, my wall interaction got even more frequent and thus the occurrence of the levitating-state bug increased equally. Up to now its no dramatic biggie to me anymore since I found my ways to deal with it or even suppress it or use it to my advantage in some situations, but its existence is still a noticeable bother.

Due to other things having a way higher urge to be fixed I didn't investigate more into depth, but as far as I can say from the number of occurrences there are two major trigger factors to it:

 Ground interaction (e.g. a quick slide + ads dip on an edge or small obstacle)

Spoiler

 

Wall interaction (quick wall latches with and without ground interaction)

Spoiler

 

 

As I already mentioned you can suppress that effect if you don't bug out too much. For example with aerial movement (bjump, djump, melee), rolls, other wall interactions. However sometimes that will result in yet another bug. Upward slams:

Spoiler

I triggered that levitating state in the room when I was about to climb these boxes. I noticed that something is wrong and tried to minimize the effect while exiting the room as somebody came into my direction. I tried to stay hidden and did a copter around that entrance frame which resulted into an instant upward slam right after. (before old blood)

 

Notice how I went for the air melee and it got executed first, but quickly turned into that upward slam. tbh idk anymore where the levitating state was triggered there... (after old blood) Its kinda hard to tell from the footage without the nohboard active, but you definitely will notice some sort of delay on your moves as you play + some won't even work sometimes.

 

 

• Names and the hp bar refuse to disappear or they fade too slow:

Spoiler

That does not only apply to being blinded. It is a common occurrence and also applies to doors and walls, say broken line of sight. That thing can be exploited rather easy as you can see in the gif above, which limits us in a lot of tactical choices as we play.

 

 

• Weapon sounds and other sounds are simply not there sometimes.

For example when you rapidly tap a weapon or try to shoot a Vectis as fast as possible from my own experience through the feedback of others.

That aside I know the sound design is meant to bear the pve side of the game and thus many sounds get layered or reduced beyond being recognizable to minimize the cluster#*!% on our ears and to lead the attention of the player along the important events through the various missions. But for pvp this is rather detrimental.

When I play I'm not only focusing on the visual, but also on the auditory input to keep track of my surroundings and for decision making. One of the most common situations would be standing still while trying to shoot something afar and someone bumps you over from behind. Yes we are supposed to be space ninjas and ninjas move silent. But I find it rather weird when your own sounds are vastly louder than a guy doing his thing right behind you or the door idk 5m away will be barely noticeable while it is loud for the guy who is passing it. The fall off for sounds volume is too drastic imho. (while stuff like Zenith shots can be heard across the map)

I tried to fiddle some with the reverb etc. but couldn't notice much of a difference to my experience in Warframe.

 

 

 

Thats what came to mind at the moment, might add other stuff later once I remember or stumble across something new. Oh and all these are bugs on PC, idk about console experience.

[Loxyen]

20 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Thats what came to mind at the moment, might add other stuff later once I remember or stumble across something new.

I got a few more points to add.

 

• Misplacement on rmb combos (dash/jump combo)

This occurs quite frequent and primarily when you've performed other actions and start to use the rmb combo again. Then its only happening on the first dash, if you dash repetitively the rest will be fine unless there was a brief pause... Haven't had the chance to find out more detail about this except its happening in pvp as well as pve equally:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

As you can see in these gifs it suddenly warps you to the side.

 

 

• Zoom (aiming down sight) keeps bugging/toggling regularly

As far as I can say this bug does not seem to depend on the weapon you use. It happened to me while using any primary or secondary weapon class so far and even while using melee or the scanner in pve.

I'm not quite sure what the cause for that bug is, since its appearance is rather inconsistent so far.

Respawning does not solve the issue. Using rmb (zooming/aiming down sight) again does.

[Kontrollo]

3 hours ago, Loxyen said:

I got a few more points to add.

 

• Misplacement on rmb combos (dash/jump combo)

This occurs quite frequent and primarily when you've performed other actions and start to use the rmb combo again. Then its only happening on the first dash, if you dash repetitively the rest will be fine unless there was a brief pause... Haven't had the chance to find out more detail about this except its happening in pvp as well as pve equally:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

As you can see in these gifs it suddenly warps you to the side.

 

 

• Zoom (aiming down sight) keeps bugging/toggling regularly

As far as I can say this bug does not seem to depend on the weapon you use. It happened to me while using any primary or secondary weapon class so far and even while using melee or the scanner in pve.

I'm not quite sure what the cause for that bug is, since its appearance is rather inconsistent so far.

Respawning does not solve the issue. Using rmb (zooming/aiming down sight) again does.

Right, good job there too.

Just wanted to add that the weird slams are not just a PvP thing:

 

 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

7 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Right, good job there too.

Just wanted to add that the weird slams are not just a PvP thing:

 

 

Are you going upwards... with a slam attack?

[Kontrollo]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Are you going upwards... with a slam attack?

I'm going wherever I damn well care, alright?  😉

[Loxyen]

Oh btw I found out another thing.

Telos Boltace's ragdoll effect makes you ignore map boundaries such as the invisible sky wall or the respawn boundary when falling off.

 

[Kontrollo]

19 minutes ago, Loxyen said:

Oh btw I found out another thing.

Telos Boltace's ragdoll effect makes you ignore map boundaries such as the invisible sky wall or the respawn boundary when falling off.

 

Can't stress this enough: Fix the damn game.

Same here:

Spoiler

 

And in this map I got flung upwards and landed on top of the invisible ceiling. Didn't find a way to get into the map again right away, either:

Spoiler

 

[Kontrollo]

In related news, Halikar (and probably other Glaives) still randomly procs Magnetic on ground slam, and sometimes the slams hit targets that aren't even near the zone of impact:

The Glaive Magnetic proc has been in since I can remember (read: years), and there's still absolutely no reason for it to happen.

[Loxyen]

I'd like to add that these teleports on ignored Telos Boltace's ragdoll effect are still happening after the Old Blood update. I did not mention these again, because I did not encounter any until now. However as you can see in the following gif they still seem to happen.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Loxyen
bad engrish

[standardheadache]

You can also shoot while being ragdolled, which currently is the closest thing to a counter there is to Telos Boltace.

[Yunjuwo]

Everyone needs to realize that there's literally nothing that needs to be fixed with Conclave regarding the Melee Phase 2 update. This isn't just some new weapon that has broken stats in Conclave, this is a complete overhaul of the game's melee system, meaning this was intentional. Regardless of how big of a *@##$ fit you throw, no player's begging is going to overthrow the vision of the developers themselves. Yes Conclave is virtually never looked at but even a child could put two and two together to realize that the fact that the melee update even carried over to Conclave at all, shows the developers were aware of this. They allowed this to happen. This is melee now, and it exists in Conclave as well. Are there any legitimate bugs that actually need fixing? Yes. Does this include any of the core mechanics? No.

Seriously, I haven't seen this much crying since Maiming Strike.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

Seriously, I haven't seen this much crying since Maiming Strike.

Most of which seems to stem from the bugs I think we all agree need fixing and other, mostly balance, issues circling around the main update. Dual swords getting full slide attack damage while others don't, Telos Boltace having a ragdoll effect that doesn't work smoothly with the rest of the game (sends players beyond kill zones, teleports players, allows for shooting?), hit sounds against blocking enemies sounding identical to successful damage numbers with the "0"s in a not-too-easy-to-read font colour, Wolf Sledge having quite extreme homing and a quite extreme radius while Glaives remain unchanged...and much of this page in particular is talking about other buggy behaviours.

The core mechanics themselves, which really is just the blocking part and the combos and cancelling, aren't really that egregious, all things considered. They change the gameplay, for sure, and need better sounds (like much of Conclave does in general), but they don't dominate the conversation at all. I wager, were those the only problems, you'd be unlikely to hear nay a peep from most players talking about melee in Conclave. They'd get used to it.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

Everyone needs to realize that there's literally nothing that needs to be fixed with Conclave regarding the Melee Phase 2 update. This isn't just some new weapon that has broken stats in Conclave, this is a complete overhaul of the game's melee system, meaning this was intentional. Regardless of how big of a *@##$ fit you throw, no player's begging is going to overthrow the vision of the developers themselves. Yes Conclave is virtually never looked at but even a child could put two and two together to realize that the fact that the melee update even carried over to Conclave at all, shows the developers were aware of this. They allowed this to happen. This is melee now, and it exists in Conclave as well. Are there any legitimate bugs that actually need fixing? Yes. Does this include any of the core mechanics? No.

Seriously, I haven't seen this much crying since Maiming Strike.

Everything that is out of balance in this update in conclave can be adjusted by DE. We don't have to reverse the melee phase 2 update to fix it, we just want some numbers adjusted to be more in line with the other weapons. Block angles can be adjusted, weapon damage can be adjusted, the ragdoll effect can be removed from the weapon in conclave, homing values can be adjusted. It wasn't intentional that it got carried over to conclave in the way that it did, we know this because many other pve changed get carries over unintentionally into conclave too. I have faith that DE will fix their mistakes.

[SECURATYYY]

Love conclave. Wish it would be developed more. The only problem I can see is the influx of toxic people. It would be limited to that game mode though, but its everywhere competition is.

 

They need more game modes. Also They need certain loadouts. I don't think every single weapon in the game could be fit into a small, competitive package. Keep the current "BYOG", but have other modes where you can only select from certain weapons, or no abilities, or everyone has the same shield/health. Bratons, aklatos, etc. (You don't own the weapon, just gain it for the match) It would make it more balanced for sure. Maybe they could reuse the thing in the intro where you select between the bow//braton and throwing knives//lato. Place pickups on the map like a sniper, run up to hit X and swap. Limited ammo and etc. There is so much that can be done here.

 

If warframe had a good pvp, it would attract a LOT of people.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

20 hours ago, SECURATYYY said:

Love conclave. Wish it would be developed more. The only problem I can see is the influx of toxic people. It would be limited to that game mode though, but its everywhere competition is.

 

They need more game modes. Also They need certain loadouts. I don't think every single weapon in the game could be fit into a small, competitive package. Keep the current "BYOG", but have other modes where you can only select from certain weapons, or no abilities, or everyone has the same shield/health. Bratons, aklatos, etc. (You don't own the weapon, just gain it for the match) It would make it more balanced for sure. Maybe they could reuse the thing in the intro where you select between the bow//braton and throwing knives//lato. Place pickups on the map like a sniper, run up to hit X and swap. Limited ammo and etc. There is so much that can be done here.

 

If warframe had a good pvp, it would attract a LOT of people.

How would limiting the number of weapons available lower the skill gap?

[Tyreaus]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How would limiting the number of weapons available lower the skill gap?

It wouldn't. I also don't think he claimed that.

Some of the things it would do is ease up on the development / DB costs of a system that gives players a full arsenal of weapons. It'd make future broad-scope balance tweaks easier (gameplay tweaks like Melee 3.0, if DE keeps the core principles of it, may be one call for more balance adjustments). It may limit the impact of update bleeds (possibly no Wolf Sledge, Telos Boltace, Dual Swords...). It would, as with a number of technical simplifications, improve player understanding. Conclave has kind of a notorious "what just killed me" issue and the 100, 200-odd? weapons—complete with unexplained damage nuances and obfuscated enemy modding—don't exactly help.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

It wouldn't. I also don't think he claimed that.

Some of the things it would do is ease up on the development / DB costs of a system that gives players a full arsenal of weapons. It'd make future broad-scope balance tweaks easier (gameplay tweaks like Melee 3.0, if DE keeps the core principles of it, may be one call for more balance adjustments). It may limit the impact of update bleeds (possibly no Wolf Sledge, Telos Boltace, Dual Swords...). It would, as with a number of technical simplifications, improve player understanding. Conclave has kind of a notorious "what just killed me" issue and the 100, 200-odd? weapons—complete with unexplained damage nuances and obfuscated enemy modding—don't exactly help.

Out of curiosity, do you know how conclave 2.0 began? I mean, in terms of gear available.

Edited December 18, 2019 by (XB1)The Repo Man151