Devstream touching on the kuva lich killing us

[GruntBlender]

6 hours ago, Sunder said:

As such I can only suggest, Avoid the Lich system entirely. Warn new players from touching it at all. Let DE know that going to our doom to progress is NOT fun.

Hell, I'm uninstalling it and definitely not spending any money on it until they demonstrate they're listening to players.

[Unimira]

Liches aren't fun so I'm not doing them (MR28 can wait), the RNG death is just one aspect I find annoying but there are bigger issues in my opinion. Layers of RNG, trap for new(er) players and costly MR trash as only reward to name a few.

[Unitanubis]

This in addition to the blatantly scummy way the mods are make the lich system extremely frustrating.

[Azvalk]

Il y a 10 heures, DrakeWurrum a dit :

The way Reb phrased it when asking Steve about it was that we players want them to be more undead-like. But the theme isn't the damn problem, it's the mechanics of the system itself that is making players upset!

If the theme was respected, that the lich were more undead like, the mechanic of the insta death for us on a fail would not be there.
Liches would not kill us when we fail the finisher, because they would be dead on the floor, regardless of our mods, but with wrong mod sequence, the kuva could react and rise them in the air for their resurrection.

[Steel_Rook]

15 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I'm just hoping they can clean up this mess and don't continue this as a trend, because it's a major mistake made by the "AAA" devs out there all the time. They spent most of the year procrastinating on things, and then suddenly in the last couple months of the year we get the big updates and they're actually complaining about working hard in the devstream (check 134, when Reb is trying to bring up the kuva lich subject). They could've been working at a relaxed pace the whole year, with much less stress, and to much more positive community feedback, but they didn't.

I don't want to assign individual blame from the outside looking in, but I agree in spirit. Between stories about 100-hour work weeks at Rockstar, Bioware, NeatherRealm and other studios, the concept of "crunch" has been getting a lot of scrutiny lately, not to mention leaving a permanent mark on a lot of the franchises it touches. Even when developers successfully pull it off at the cost of their personal lives and mental health, crunch remains a failure of management. I remain an advocate of openness and honesty. If you're behind, tell me. If you can't deliver, delay. Yes it's going to suck, yes people will complain but you're still keeping your own players in the loop and that breeds good will. What pisses me off about DE right now is that they're trying to have it both ways. They're very obviously MASSIVELY behind schedule and struggling just to stay above water, but at the same time they're trying to pretend it's just business as usual and getting pissy when people complain. "But what have you done for me lately" my ass.

I'm willing to cut DE a lot of slack because the content they're developing with Railjack is genuinely ambitious and I can recognise how much of an undertaking that is. If they're going to piss on my head and tell me it's raining, however, then I'm going to turn around and ask them how they ended up pissing away two years working on it if THAT is what they have to show for that. When developers start getting catty with their players, expect players to get catty in return.

 

12 hours ago, Sunder said:

And I think someone mentioned it on twitter and was met with the same hostility and negative expressions of how much this is a bad system. From people raging we didn't get what was shown at TennoCon to people simply wanting the suicide roulette changed. But DE still seems to remain staunch in their decision to keep the system as-is. Despite its many flaws.Even with people composing well structured and thought out posts about what's wrong, why it's not fun or enjoyable, and what can be done to change it.

The problem I suspect a lot of people are having with DE's responses, whether overt or subconscious, is that DE come across as shady and dishonest on the subject. They keep talking about the "theme" and how they want to retain the "theme" and bla-bla power reversal when it's obvious to anyone with eyes inside their head that this is being forced by technical limitation as a result of kicking the system out the door half-baked in an attempt to bail out their sinking schedule. When you dodge questions, make excuses and deflect to unrelated aspects of the issue, your actions come across as shifty and insincere. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call those blatant lies, beyond maybe DE lying to themselves in trying to save face, but it certainly comes across like double-talk. Maybe that's just me, but I don't have a lot of patience for double-talk.

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

"But what have you done for me lately" my ass.

That part is especially amusing, seeing as how half of the stuff on that list is either mediocre, many years overdue or just a flat out downgrade. We have:

-Wolf of Saturn 6. A huge wall of hitpoints and arbitrary power/proc immunity. Wooooo.

-Melee phase 1. A complete disaster.

-Hildryn & exploit orb. OK, I guess? I'll give that a vague thumbs up

-Clientside doors/weapon switch. After HOW many years?

-PoE economy changes. Plenty of complaints about that at the beginning. I never cared that much about the resource costs, but many others did. I'll give that one a solid "meh" out of 10 due to how long it took.

-Thumpers. On one hand: completely ruins the PoE economy due to farting out large quantities of resources when killed. On the other hand: arbitrary damage reduction, only able to be hurt on tiny little weakspots on something that jumps around like a bunny on crack. Here, have another "meh".

-PoE conservation. Gigantic "meh" from me, but I suppose some others might like it? Faintly a good thing?

-Wisp/ropeadopealyst. Wisp is all right, ropethingy boss fight itself is a horrible mess of arbitrary power cancelling which means that anything relying on its powers to stay alive gets crapped on. Still considering that as a plus overall.

-Jupiter tileset change. Ugh. Jupiter used to be nice (aside from that ice barrel infection it picked up a while ago), now it's just "meh". Not particularly easy for new players to navigate (who have neither maxed out bullet jump mods nor a high level small child), and the defence tile is way too big for its own good. I don't care for the door scanner traps either. This one, I'd rank as a faintly negative change.

-Disruption: Not a bad way of getting T4 relics. I don't care that much for it, but it is something new and I don't find the game mode itself to be objectionable. All in all, it's a good thing to have.

-Donkey Kong changes. I've never used him, but others seem to get on at least fairly well with it. The moveset on his #4 is still pretty crap - not a good sign for the future. I don't care for this change, but I suppose it's also a positive thing.

-Nightwave Emissary. That was pretty good. An interesting boss fight, no bullS#&$ mechanics. Story was a little predictable, but I'm not complaining. Thumbs up.

-Gauss & Leverian. I didn't like Gauss much, but he has his uses. Leverian is nice, more lore is always good to have. Thumbs up.

-Disruption expansion. Normal disruption was a good addition, putting it on other tilesets was also good. Again, thumbs up.

-Look/Mod link. What was this again? *reads a bit* Meh, I suppose that the mod link might be useful when sharing builds. Not massively useful, but it's not harmful and I suppose it's neat to have. Tentative thumbs up?

-Melee phase 2. Now breaks polearms at high attack speed. Now forces me to charge attack. Still lacking mobility. Still costs me my alt-fire. Still makes syndicate procs useless. Still get forced to aim-glide when shot in mid-air. Still a disaster.

-Ember/Vauban changes. People seem to like Vauban, opinion on Ember is split. I don't much care for either. Possible thumbs up purely based on balance of opinion.

-Grendel. Useless. Annoying means of acquisition, his abilities don't do anything except eat your energy, has very little shields and no way of healing himself. I'm giving that one a thumbs down.

-Parazon. What was this even for again? About the only useful thing it has is the instahack mod, but that's too unreliable to count on. It takes longer to actually reach the hack screen after clicking on a terminal, and the jiggling and noises in the background are very annoying. That one gets a thumbs down.

-"Liches". An absolute S#&$show. Honestly, we'd have been better off without this.

-Rising Tide quest & drydock. More storyline, a chance to prepare for upcoming releases. Thumbs up.

So, in total, I count 11 good things, 4 "neutral" things (either because they're of absolutely no importance, or because they should have been done back in 2013) and 6 bad things (ranging from "what a waste of time" to "holy S#&$, you've ruined it").

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

"Donkey Kong"

Angry Monkey Noises.

[Steel_Rook]

8 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

That part is especially amusing, seeing as how half of the stuff on that list is either mediocre, many years overdue or just a flat out downgrade. We have:

*list of updates cropped for brevity*

For as critical as I am of DE, I'd honestly probably be a lot more forgiving. Some of their releases are straight-up crap, make no mistake. The Grendel missions are an utter farce of "Then buy me with Plat if you don't like it!" However, I have to give props for Jupiter, Disruption, the Melee changes and even the Cetus rework. While none were individually major, they do have the knock-on effect of adding breadth to the game and shoring up instances of - let's face it - really bad design. I don't doubt that DE have done a lot, even if I find bragging about it to deflect criticism to be in SHOCKINGLY poor taste.

It's all "whataboutism" though. Hey, DE, the Kuval Lich system sucks ass and you knew this when you released it. "But what about Jupiter?" Not the point. "But what about Grendel and Wukong?" Yeah, still not the point. "But what about Cetus and the Melee changes and the..." Don't care! Not the point! You having released decent content in the past, while commendable, doesn't make the Kuva Lich system any less S#&$! And the S#&$ness itself isn't even the point - I can deal with bad releases, missed deadlines and buggy content. This is the world we live in. But for crap's sake, address it! Stop dancing around it, stop pretending like you don't see the feedback and, above all else, stop pretending like the feedback you're getting is about something else entirely.

That's what pisses me off. We all know the Kuva Lich system is terrible. DE knew it was terrible before they released it. We all know what this is about. Yet they have consistently pretended that they don't understand what the issue is, they've consistently pretended to misunderstand why people are unhappy, they've consistently tried to deflect - anything to avoid addressing the elephant in the room. I'd expect this sort of double-talk out of politicians the week before general elections. To hear it out of DE just makes them come across as dishonest and THAT more than anything else is what upsets me personally.

If you screwed up, then own up to it, stand up and be counted. Yes it's going to generate bad press but it's ALREADY generating bad press. At least it would be demonstrating spine and integrity. That still counts, even in the age of the Internet. Honestly at this point, saying nothing would have been preferable.

[Ham_Grenabe]

The "feedback about something else" tendency of DE isn't unique to them - it makes me think of the Destiny meme of "So what you're saying is...nerf fusion rifles?"

That said, just because it's not unique, doesn't make taking the "we know that's not the answer; we got it wrong on purpose" approach any more fun for us.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[DrakeWurrum]

22 hours ago, Sunder said:

As such I can only suggest, Avoid the Lich system entirely. Warn new players from touching it at all. Let DE know that going to our doom to progress is NOT fun.

15 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Hell, I'm uninstalling it and definitely not spending any money on it until they demonstrate they're listening to players.

14 hours ago, Unimira said:

Liches aren't fun so I'm not doing them (MR28 can wait), the RNG death is just one aspect I find annoying but there are bigger issues in my opinion. Layers of RNG, trap for new(er) players and costly MR trash as only reward to name a few.

I'm personally on the fence. I'm only on my fourth lich, though I'm sure most veterans like me have at least 2 dozen. Part of why is, obviously, the system just isn't fun enough for me to blast through it, so I've taken it in small doses.

I think I'm gonna commit to getting one lich from each frame before I start actually caring about farming specific weapons or damage bonuses, so it'll take me a while to start really feeling some of the flaws in the system.
This has resulted in my fourth lich, killed by a Rhino... having a Kuva Kohm with over 50% Impact bonus. That's seriously messed up, and I feel like it would make more sense if the physical damage bonus was specifically suited to the weapon's highest value of IPS.

But the murmur farming and the auto-death and having to farm T5 relics to get all 8 Requiems still very much are negatives for me, so... like I said, I'm taking it in small doses.

Edited December 9, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Sunder]

22 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

-snip-

I'd happily take it in small doses if it was actually fun.

And I guess I'm considered a veteran as the Kuva weapons are the only things I'm missing in-game and have been playing from the get-go. Even so I'll forego them till this isn't such a mess. 

[Ham_Grenabe]

I've done 17, and ended up with 8 of the weapons. I like the higher percentages, obviously, but I'm really just there for completing the collection.

The grind is hella-grindy, but there's...really nothing else to do, so I keep going back. I have a railjack, I don't tend to do endurance runs, I'm not a fan of tridolon hunting...and murmur farming is just shooting doodz on planets so it's really the kind of thing you do anyway in the game. So once I got all the requiem mods (that farm sucked), it wasn't so bad.

However, with 9 repeat weapons (and I didn't start the Lich hunts until after they did the "never the same weapon twice in a row" fix) I'm now waiting until they implement the "dismiss a lich" option before I try again. I'm tired of the repeats. It should have been a knockout list from the get-go, and you only get to farm for better percentages once you've acquired all 13 weapons.

None of the above makes any of the bad parts of the grind less bad; I'm basically rationalizing why I can't stop pulling the slot machine lever.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[DrakeWurrum]

3 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

However, with 9 repeat weapons (and I didn't start the Lich hunts until after they did the "never the same weapon twice in a row" fix) I'm now waiting until they implement the "dismiss a lich" option before I try again. I'm tired of the repeats. It should have been a knockout list from the get-go, and you only get to farm for better percentages once you've acquired all 13 weapons.

Yeah, that's not something I look forward to experiencing. I still like the suggestion that each Larvling is a soldier equipped with the non-kuva version of the weapon their lich would have, allowing you to sort of pick and choose which weapon you get. Still RNG nonsense, mind you, having to repeat a mission until you get the larvling you want, but it would be better than what we have now.

[notlamprey]

16 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Hell, I'm uninstalling it and definitely not spending any money on it until they demonstrate they're listening to players.

Right there with you.

I haven't had the need to buy platinum or prime access stuff in a long time, but I've always been happy to drop a few bucks on tennogen when I see something I like. I even bought the Old Blood fatpack bundle (the name of which I don't remember atm) on day one because I could, and because I figured even the gesture of support was appropriate.

Holy heckin' Hema was I ever bamboozled on that one. I traded for some Liches to at least give this system a fair chance while I was extracting the MR xp, and it was thoroughly unpleasant. I regret all the platinum I spent on Old Blood stuff; not all bets are winners.

I will even open myself up to some mockery for whaling here, and say that I've spent $52 on a certain other game that recently went F2P since The Old Blood came out. I'm spending my money where the fun is, and I hate to say that right now I'm not finding the fun in Warframe. 

Maybe things will improve, but the pattern of hotfixes and comments from DE has been really disheartening.

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

I'm basically rationalizing why I can't stop pulling the slot machine lever.

The first step in treating an addiction is to admit that you have a weakness.

9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Angry Monkey Noises

I thought I smelled bananas in here.

[(NSW)Master_Betty]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb DoomFruit:

Parazon. [...] It takes longer to actually reach the hack screen after clicking on a terminal, and the jiggling and noises in the background are very annoying. That one gets a thumbs down.

I was worried I was the only one who was so bothered by all the redundant audio-visual feedback and delay when hacking. Now I can stop worrying.

[Ham_Grenabe]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)Master_Betty said:

I was worried I was the only one who was so bothered by all the redundant audio-visual feedback and delay when hacking. Now I can stop worrying.

I like the idea of using a sort of data spike to hack consoles, but yeah, the noises and twitching are too much. 

[ciTiger]

DE doesn't care about player feedback on this issue, it's clear.

[Steel_Rook]

On 2019-12-09 at 10:25 PM, DrakeWurrum said:

I'm personally on the fence. I'm only on my fourth lich, though I'm sure most veterans like me have at least 2 dozen. Part of why is, obviously, the system just isn't fun enough for me to blast through it, so I've taken it in small doses.

I've done a few Liches myself. I have a Kuva Seeker (not bad), a Kuva Kraken (pretty bad), a Kuva Dubba Stubba (neat) and a repeat of the Seeker with worse stats. I converted the last Lich and have seen no evidence that this has had an effect so far. Point being, when I talk about the tedium of the Kuva Lich system, it's not for lack of trying. I've done my level best to give DE the benefit of a doubt on this one and given the system a fair shake - I think so at least. There's great potential in Liches from their personality to their status as a recurring villain to the mechanics involved, etc. Except... It's all in my imagination. There are so many great things DE COULD have done with the Kuva Lich system... Except they didn't. Having killed four of them, it literally feels like I'm fighting Wolf with some extra grind on the side and also I die for no reason at the end of every encounter. The weapons are "neat" but they could have been Wraith weapons and I wouldn't have noticed the difference.

And all of THAT would be fine... If DE hadn't also double down, tripled down, quadrupled down on the grind and RNG. Grind for RNG relic drops, grind for Traces, grind for RNG relic openings, grind for RNG liches with RNG weapons with RNG stats, then randomly guess a sequence with really dumb guessing mechanics and keep your fingers crossed. This is RNG grind masquerading as content, and THAT I find frankly pretty insulting. Then DE are challenged about it, and they play dumb, they brag about how much other stuff they've accomplished, they bring up obviously dishonest straw men and otherwise deflect. That to me is where it becomes inexcusable. That's where I start feeling like I'm being taken for a ride.

I can accept malicious arguments constructed from logical fallacies here on the forums. Fair enough, we're all random customers. When these same fallacies are coming from the STUDIO, though, that's a whole other matter.

 

On 2019-12-09 at 11:46 PM, notlamprey said:

I haven't had the need to buy platinum or prime access stuff in a long time, but I've always been happy to drop a few bucks on tennogen when I see something I like. I even bought the Old Blood fatpack bundle (the name of which I don't remember atm) on day one because I could, and because I figured even the gesture of support was appropriate.

I'm kind of the opposite, myself. I've learned to accept that this is just the world we live in now, where the Live Service business model is built around conning me out of my money despite the "free to play" label. Being able to enjoy video games in this day and age has - at least for me - required a sense of what the game REALLY wants me to pay for and what it's letting me pay for to see if I'm dumb enough to waste money. I've gone through a lot of Plat in Warframe just trying to circumvent what I see as systems deliberately designed to feign a free product while still making me pay. I've bought a lot of Forma, a lot of Catalysts/Reactors, a lot of slots and such. I've traded for more obscure stuff like the very rare arcanes, etc. Going through my receipts, I'm about €450 in over I think close to two years of playing the game now, which is ~€18-19 per month. Expensive, yes, but not that much more expensive than your standard-issue $15 a month subscription I paid for City of Heroes for eight years straight.

Like you, I'm not opposed to paying for my video games and I'm not opposed to paying for stuff even if I can get them for free. If I like the game, then it's money well spent anyway, plus developers deserve to eat, too. There's a limit to that, however. When a developer starts delivering less content with more monetisation, I start to wonder. When a developer starts delivering more grinding for consumables and upkeep and rentals, I start to wonder. When a developer then turns around and tells me how I should be grateful about all the great things they've done and my complaints are unreasonable, I REALLY start to wonder. And judging by feedback, I'm hardly the only one. Good will makes money because happy players will spend more. DE's recent actions have traded in a LOT of good will for them.

[IconianCat]

sigh 

alright before i get jumped on about this cause i know i will and i understand im apparently in the minority or at least the neutral ground on this whos still trying to give DE the benefit of the doubt. im NOT defending their lack of acknowledgement of the system and its flaws

i think there was really only one major problem with this timetable and schedule and it was the number and scope of the projects being released.

now i dont think this was entirely any one person's fault. im not sure how large DE is in terms of employees or budget for warframe but looking from the outside in and having only just started paying attention to dev streams i think theres a small handful of things happening in regards to liches, empyrean, and the foundation of the game itself.

the first major thing happening is that the devs walk a fine between applying their own vision and making a game for the community. it seems to me at least the devs do care about warframe substantially. so i feel some of the systems if they were anyone's brainchild or potentialyl an entire teams baby might feel attacked if they already feel like they failed the system from a design perspective or if they like whats been made.

second is the scope of the project. idk if it was just me or if others felt it as well but everyone seemed tired in DS 134. and i dont mean tired like long work week i mean tired like mental strain. they seemed burnt and stressed and almost sluggish. as though theyre just trying to put out a product and the response from other systems is weighing them down. and i think part of this is the response to liches and comments about the release of more content for fortuna that was never dropped. like the orb mother.

third is the scope of the change. DE didnt give themselves enough time and this is nobody's fault tbh. railjack is effectively an entirely new game. and im assuming only at the fortuna teaser where they called it down from the sky was just a work in concept demo of the ship and its appearance. and tennocon 2019 showed us a major gameplay demo after a long silence. and now the devs are just trying to make THIS system not blow up in their face. (i hope) before they can even focus on reworking the other systems. and i can understand the mindset. if empyrean is meant to integrate everything even in a minor way theres no point in putting even MORE crunch time in on a deadline for a major content drop and then ALSO working on a separate system that will need a patch anyway to integrate it with empyrean.

it feels like DE bit off more than they could chew all at once which could be a fault of management or they got too excited about the project.

im not defending the current systems or excusing them and i do feel theres some big changes that should be made to make the systems smoother and more coherent with lore. but im trying to give the perspective many people might not be getting which is there is a human element behind the scenes that does legitimately care about the game but right now its sandwiched between the need for content to pull in money and the love and passion of the game which wants more depth and freedom in the game

Edited December 11, 2019 by IconianCat

[DrakeWurrum]

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Except... It's all in my imagination. There are so many great things DE COULD have done with the Kuva Lich system... Except they didn't. Having killed four of them, it literally feels like I'm fighting Wolf with some extra grind on the side and also I die for no reason at the end of every encounter. The weapons are "neat" but they could have been Wraith weapons and I wouldn't have noticed the difference.

 

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

This is RNG grind masquerading as content, and THAT I find frankly pretty insulting.

That is exactly my issue with the lich grind, yes. I don't personally mind grind, but as you said... they doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down on the grind and RNG. They made it tedious enough to suck the fun out of it, while hiding that there's no actual new gameplay with the lich.

With my latest lich, I haven't bothered to mercy kill it once. I'll down it three times and let it run away, tail between legs, while she spouts something about upgrading. She still ranks up when I clear a whole planet, but at least I'm not suiciding myself on her, and she's only rank 2 with 2 of the Requiems unlocked. I might have to clear another planet and sadly rank her up one more time.

It's not so much that I care about her ranking up, but I see no reason to let it happen, and I'm trying to see how minimally I can rank her up. So far I don't think it's possible to kill a rank 1 lich without hitting that 1 in 336 chance of guessing the Requiem on the first try.

 

  

3 hours ago, IconianCat said:

everyone seemed tired in DS 134

Yeah, they're REALLY busting butt on Empyrean. From my perspective, though I don't know if it's true, it seems like they've made the typical dev studio mistake of having a largely relaxed year, and now that a "deadline" is approaching, they've entered crunch time. Which isn't healthy for devs. I hope it's not true, but that's how it looks from the outside.

3 hours ago, IconianCat said:

im not sure how large DE is in terms of employees or budget for warframe

They have 310 employees. So they're a larger studio than, say, the folks behind Path of Exile (Grinding Gear Games), but smaller than a typical AAA studio funded by EA. They should have enough people to put out regular content, and they have the skills to make it really amazing, but they don't always bring their A game, that I've seen. They do make PLENTY of money, though, judging by Steam statistics.

3 hours ago, IconianCat said:

DE didnt give themselves enough time and this is nobody's fault tbh.

They've had since Tennocon 2018 (So June of last year) to get Railjack together. They've HAD the time, but they haven't necessarily taken it. Again, I don't know firsthand exactly how much effort they've put on it over that period of time, but it doesn't seem like it was top priority until just recently.

Edited December 11, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[IconianCat]

24 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

 

 

  

Yeah, they're REALLY busting butt on Empyrean. From my perspective, though I don't know if it's true, it seems like they've made the typical dev studio mistake of having a largely relaxed year, and now that a "deadline" is approaching, they've entered crunch time. Which isn't healthy for devs. I hope it's not true, but that's how it looks from the outside.

They have 310 employees. So they're a larger studio than, say, the folks behind Path of Exile (Grinding Gear Games), but smaller than a typical AAA studio funded by EA. They should have enough people to put out regular content, and they have the skills to make it really amazing, but they don't always bring their A game, that I've seen. They do make PLENTY of money, though, judging by Steam statistics.

They've had since Tennocon 2018 (So June of last year) to get Railjack together. They've HAD the time, but they haven't necessarily taken it. Again, I don't know firsthand exactly how much effort they've put on it over that period of time, but it doesn't seem like it was top priority until just recently.

ive meant in respect to the scope itself. im not sure how much they actually had in tennocon 2018 but it doesnt really matter put into perspective of HOW MUCH of warframe they need to change to make empyrean work without a mountain of bugs. its practically building half a game in 2 years tops while working on story. a new faction. a nemesis system which is NOT a simple thing to do properly.

so yes youre right theyve had time but even if they had taken it i wonder if theyd still be in crunch right now trying to tune things up..

im just hoping they havent gotten frustrated halfway from tennocon 2018 just trying to make basic server side changes for the connectivity. (im worried they dropped squadlink from 1.0)

and then for the remainder of the time just keep having to scrap ideas and get more and more despairing seeing the community react negatively to both the wait and what content they have put out. all in all its like being told everything youre doing is wrong and theres no way you can change it to my satisfaction now cause of all thehype. which can be pretty soul crushing if its a project you really want to see succeed.

i hope what we saw in dev stream 134 was just my imagination as far as mental exhaustion and theyre really just crunching only in the past couple weeks to make christmas. which means it could just have been something small...

[DrakeWurrum]

6 minutes ago, IconianCat said:

ive meant in respect to the scope itself. im not sure how much they actually had in tennocon 2018 but it doesnt really matter put into perspective of HOW MUCH of warframe they need to change to make empyrean work without a mountain of bugs. its practically building half a game in 2 years tops while working on story. a new faction. a nemesis system which is NOT a simple thing to do properly.

so yes youre right theyve had time but even if they had taken it i wonder if theyd still be in crunch right now trying to tune things up..

im just hoping they havent gotten frustrated halfway from tennocon 2018 just trying to make basic server side changes for the connectivity. (im worried they dropped squadlink from 1.0)

and then for the remainder of the time just keep having to scrap ideas and get more and more despairing seeing the community react negatively to both the wait and what content they have put out. all in all its like being told everything youre doing is wrong and theres no way you can change it to my satisfaction now cause of all thehype. which can be pretty soul crushing if its a project you really want to see succeed.

i hope what we saw in dev stream 134 was just my imagination as far as mental exhaustion and theyre really just crunching only in the past couple weeks to make christmas. which means it could just have been something small...

I do remember at one point, Steve was expressing over twitter that he was simply not happy with the overall feel of the flight controls, to the point that he basically started them over from scratch in his efforts to get it just right. So they have had their share of frustrations along the way. I imagine that they have had to cut some things out from the initial launch (like the Command skill), just so they can have at least the bare bones features ready to launch.

But I feel what you're saying. It certainly can't be easy with all the negativity coming at them lately, making them feel even more pressure in terms of how important it is to get this just right.

IIRC, at Tennocon 2018, they had scrapped that whole thing together in about a month and weren't even sure it would work, because they basically put it all on rails for the sake of showing off at least the concept and really getting people excited for it. So I guess they've put about a year and a half into this. Which can feel rushed, yes.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2019-12-08 at 9:45 AM, Xepthrichros said:

I already justified it with my suggestion. The current game also justifies it.

You lose when 1) You don't have all the murmurs to unlock all 3 parazon requirements. 2) You haven't figured out the right combo or sequence. (or in my suggestion, you have a chance to lose/die, so I made it a bit more lenient).

If you have all the murmurs, the right parazon configuration sequence, you win, unless you encounter some glitch. So I don't know what you are trying to point out, besides stating a lose condition that does not reflect the actual game's lose condition..

And besides, as I mentioned already, the death doesn't cost much. Some affinity if you are leveling stuff. If you are not leveling stuff and are just there with maxed out gear to kill thralls and liches, then it cost you nothing tangible at all. The death doesn't send you back to the mission's start point. It doesn't force you to quit/extract immediately. It doesn't inflict some lasting status effect on the Warframe who died to a Lich for the remainder of the mission etc. Just revive and continue on with business as usual.

 

The game in no way justifies it.  In fact, as stated above, it invalidates everything immersive that DE is trying to do with this “nemesis” system.

Just because you’ve donned the “It doesn’t bother me to die like this and it shouldn’t bother you because reasons” badge doesn’t make your argument stronger.

And to be clear, you don’t “WIN” anything by your argument.  There is no skill involved.  It is simply a nut-and-bolts process of elimination to be endured.  Copying a few Assassin’ Creed animations to fool players into thinking the Parazon is a “weapon” and throwing in Death without combat on top of a battery-powered RnG sequence is not epic.

Is that what we want from WARFRAME?  Have we really just come to accept this standard if it means getting a slightly buffed weapon or some new glow-up on our frame?  Ever-growing nuts-and-bolts processes that we must either endure or buy our way past for pain-avoidance?

No...give me the combat that from the beginning felt epic and the seemless progression that was so fun and rewarding...this is what motivates me to reward DE in the only way that keeps this game alive.

[Tenno76856]

God. You people whine a lot. 

What happens when Empyrean drops.... And it turns out they need to do a lot of work on it (i for one prefer they concentrate on adding AI crew for the solo experience in empyrean.. Which a LOT of people want)???. Do you want them to fix Empyrean or fiddle with Lich stuff ? (I for one have little issues with rng grind - its what game is about)... Limited resources. Cant do both.