DE's questionable lRoadmap

[Itsmez]

On 2019-12-29 at 6:20 AM, GnarlsDarkley said:

you mean this.

Look closely again. 

• Duviri is missing
• New War is missing
• Difficulty is missing (Liches aren't difficulty, they were supposed to be Empyrean enemies)
• Rest of Melee is missing
• haven't touched Empyrean yet, but I think we are at 2/3, so still missing some things

to conclude: DE only did about half what they promised/showed

Alot of stuff is delayed, but its understandable.

Btw did they promise or plan for those things? i would like to see the source

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2019-12-29 at 4:53 AM, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

Because I sure do, as more and more potential players join, more and more may not tolerate warframe's outdated tutorial. I thought they teased this like last year or something? 

You noticed that they been working on quite a bit of stuff lately? No? 

[SneakyErvin]

My biggest concern is. Why do old players care about if a new player experience is released or not? I made it through the new player experience in 2017, it worked but wasnt stellar. My friend made it through it shortly after that. Same deal there, it worked but wasnt stellar. Now when I'm far far into the game I prefer them actually releasing things to make old timers more busy instead of something that everyone will mow through in a few hours. Sure it would be nice with a better start for new players, but it isnt something that will effect me one bit eitherway.

And to be fair. They only missed out on two things on the list aside from the new player experience and that was New War and Duviri, but we also got the optional right hand side collumn, since we got both more lore and we actually got the kingpin system (although bad) that wasnt even really planned for the year.

They kinda missed out on difficulty, though Empyrean is currently seeing improvements in the area, just as Steve said, he was planning on using Empyrean for new scaling etc.

[(XBOX)Lwyu]

On 2019-12-29 at 1:49 PM, SneakyErvin said:

My biggest concern is. Why do old players care about if a new player experience is released or not? I made it through the new player experience in 2017, it worked but wasnt stellar. My friend made it through it shortly after that. Same deal there, it worked but wasnt stellar. Now when I'm far far into the game I prefer them actually releasing things to make old timers more busy instead of something that everyone will mow through in a few hours. Sure it would be nice with a better start for new players, but it isnt something that will effect me one bit eitherway.

And to be fair. They only missed out on two things on the list aside from the new player experience and that was New War and Duviri, but we also got the optional right hand side collumn, since we got both more lore and we actually got the kingpin system (although bad) that wasnt even really planned for the year.

They kinda missed out on difficulty, though Empyrean is currently seeing improvements in the area, just as Steve said, he was planning on using Empyrean for new scaling etc.

This.. 1000x this, its not our problem anymore, though I'm sure the newer players (that arent reading this thread) are grateful for your concerns its not our problem anymore. We can remind DE, yes but to stress it the way we are now isnt necessary if youve been way past the beginning.

 

On 2019-12-29 at 6:52 AM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Oh, I remember.  I super remember.  

Irun through the "new player experience" nearly monthly.  I've watched dozens of people quit out of frustration with certain aspects (This game is not free, I do not care what anyone says.  If you don't spend money to get slots in your first few MR ranks you are going to have a BAD time.) like slots, time-gates, and the sheer grind of getting through the star chart, which is the same handful of missions on the same handful of tilesets over and over, just so they can get to the late game fun, like Railjack and Eidolon hunts and living the power fantasy of nuking the whole map. 

I watch them quit because of how confusing everything is, and how little of it is explained.  I'm a wiki guy.  I love wikis, and I use them all the time, so this wasn't a problem for me, though it did cause me to spoil a few things for myself.  A lot of people are not wiki people, and the fact that so little is explained and even more is explained poorly really doesn't help new players out.  Their obsession with hiding things in the UI only makes this worse.  I have explained the modding system so many times at this point that I could give a class on it. 

People don't understand that the only thing new players can do for the first several mastery ranks is just plow through the starchart and farm mods and level gear.  That's the new player experience right now.  Solo playing star chart mission after star chart mission while leveling total MR fodder with no mods and super limited capacity for the mods they do have.  The whole system early on is crafted around getting players to waste potatoes on trash weapons and basic frames just so they can stick a half leveled Vitality or Serration on it.  When you're MR 28 and you can fit half a build on something with one polarity while it's fresh out of the foundry you forget what it was like starting a weapon with literally 4 capacity, running all the way back to the Lith Defense node on Earth because it's the only thing your unranked, unmodded Boltor can handle at MR4.

A sweet new cinematic isn't going to fix any of that.

Regarding your comment about the game not being free, I highly disagree. I did find it odd to work with the space I have to get higher mr etc. but its not impossible. Not to mention nightwave is available early off in the game when you follow the quests and gain more items, knowledge etc. about the game/lore. They give you 50 plat off the start (used to be 100) and instead of people using it wisely like you should in any game your starting just incase they try to get cosmetics and feel bummed out that they cant. I have guided over 30 new players correctly in this aspect and now theyre just having fun collecting primes etc. without worry of space.

[SneakyErvin]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Lwyu said:

This.. 1000x this, its not our problem anymore, though I'm sure the newer players (that arent reading this thread) are grateful for your concerns its not our problem anymore. We can remind DE, yes but to stress it the way we are now isnt necessary if youve been way past the beginning.

Dont forget all those new players that havent started yet that sit and watch devstreams religiously until the day the new player experience changes so they know when to start playing. This 2019 roadmap with new player experience pinned on it really lied to those poor souls.

I bet everyone at DE got coal in their christmas socks!

[(PSN)Silverback73]

In successful business, there is the phrase “Just show me the baby.”

Preparation and effort are always necessary, and transparency and honesty in the process can (I said “can”, not “will”) buy a LOT of goodwill and patience from customers, but ultimately, integrity depends on this other simple, but true business axiom:

”Tell the customer what you are going to do.  And then DO what you told the customer you were going to do”.

Beyond that, the specifics break down to S.M.A.R.T. Goals.

Specific

Measurable

Attainable/Achievable

within a Reasonable 

Timeline.

Tennocon works so well because it is part Marketing Preview and part product enhancement.  But there is more to Steak than just the sizzle used to sell it.  Players gotta eat.

[DE] Steve and Sheldon and the rest know this, btw.  Which is why Steve frequently references the heavy weight of the entire process in 2019 and how young Steve motivates him to keep going due to how mad he would be if current Steve succumbed to the pressures of the current Warframe juggernaut and quit.

 

[Teridax68]

53 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Then tell people who are whining for timelines that they aren't being reasonable. Otherwise you are just knocking DE for listening to the community.

But the problem here is that DE isn't exactly listening to the community, as their roadmap and their actual delivery have been very different. The roadmap appeared to acknowledge player concerns regarding balance, replayability, and the like, which pleased much of the playerbase at the time. In practice though, virtually none of the content we received even attempted that, to the point where content that was supposed to release with those principles in mind, e.g. Kuva Liches and Empyrean, launched without them, and overall turned out very differently from what was promised. I can agree that it is not reasonable for players to demand vast, systemic reworks overnight, but then in this case, when the developers promise the playerbase what they've been asking for years, and even fabricate an entirely fake gameplay demo to generate more hype, it is not the players' fault if all of it turns out to be a sham, and the resulting disappointment is justified.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Teridax68

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

They didn't just lie to their new players.  They lied to their hole player base this year.    And at the end they cagratuitouled them selves  for getting railjack out. ..   at lease with EA  i know im been lied too....

They didnt lie to anyone, they had slightly higher expecations and some shift in priority.

We didnt get New War or Duviri, but we got Kingpin instead, which wasnt even planned for this year if you actually look at the roadmap.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

they need more staff. they must know this. I know it, the community knows it, my fifteen friends who are betting on it know it. the current workforce they have was never going to get even half of the things on that list done in time. they need to recruit, and yes, that takes time and means paying more wages, but they would get it all back and more as increased productivity and more helping hands means we would get smoother updates that keep people playing for longer. in the long term, they would profit.

roadmaps just don't work, because when something doesn't release you face backlash. better to just keep quiet, head down and work on projects, then release once they are ready.

 

Don't worry guys i'll work at DE

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

but we got Kingpin instead, which wasnt even planned for this year if you actually look at the roadmap.

No we didn't? ??????  What kingpin you playing. .....

[FRTE_Ret5o]

Dont forget we have half empirean XD not fully released 😛

hace 8 horas, GnarlsDarkley dijo:

you mean this.

Look closely again. 

• Duviri is missing
• New War is missing
• Difficulty is missing (Liches aren't difficulty, they were supposed to be Empyrean enemies)
• Rest of Melee is missing
• haven't touched Empyrean yet, but I think we are at 2/3, so still missing some things

to conclude: DE only did about half what they promised/showed

Only grineers and one tipe of mission seems too poor

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

I am a new player (started 2 September) and indeed the 'new player experience' is lackluster to say the least. There are no explanations about... anything, you must invest a gigantic amount of time just researching 'what/how to do', and I can understand not many people can/are willing to do that. However, I found the game entertaining enough to stick with it and am having fun regardless.
I bet a UI overhaul and thorough explanations for everything would boost the new player retention rates.

I remember the Update 14 NPE overhaul that totally redid the UI and added the Diagetic Liset and Orbiter. Given what Steve said in and interview later I don't think it did anything for their retention numbers.

Still, personally I think it would be good for the game to have a better introduction.

[Teridax68]

I remember very well, and I'm rather puzzled by why DE isn't prioritizing this, because I'd say it's arguably the biggest obstacle to their continued success right now. More than the broken balance, dysfunctional high-level scaling, and continually lacking endgame, Warframe's most impactful problem by far I think is its new player experience, which is so obtuse and painful I suspect it's driving most prospective newcomers away. The game does an absolutely horrible job of teaching the player its mechanics, and while it has this honorable goal of not wanting to hold the player by the hand too much, that need not take the form of abandoning the player completely in a vast in-game universe without any sort of objective. What makes the whole situation even stranger is that DE clearly poured a significant amount of money and art resources into that cinematic trailer, which suggested a rework to the starting quest, yet still did nothing on the gameplay side.

[cmacq]

Those of you using the term "lied" when referring to DE really need to give your heads a shake. Lies are deliberate and they mean to mislead. That is not what has happened here under any circumstance. They may not have delivered on everything they listed but those were certainly not promises as in written in stone. I read this kind of stuff all the time: Oh they lied to us oh they are so lazy, all coming from people who have no clue how development works. They are doing the best they can and it's obvious from the number of patches and hot fixes we get they work hard. Some of you have just been here too damn long and can see nothing but the warts at this point. That's not a DE problem that's a "you" problem. If you're not happy move on. You poison none but yourself with your vitriol.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

On 2019-12-29 at 3:37 PM, cmacq said:

-snip-

I don't agree with people saying de lied, my issue is that they try to take on so much even though it is obvious to experienced players that they cannot possible deliver on everything. But it's still a real problem that the new player experience hasn't been changed or tweaked at all considering how important new players are to this game.

[cmacq]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

when the developers promise the playerbase what they've been asking for years, and even fabricate an entirely fake gameplay demo to generate more hype, it is not the players' fault if all of it turns out to be a sham, and the resulting disappointment is justified.

They didn't "promise" anything. Some people have a real problem with how they look at roadmaps. They are not promises they are guidelines to show us what they intend to work on and should be taken as such.

Edited December 29, 2019 by cmacq

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, cmacq said:

They didn't "promise" anything. Some people have a real problem with how they look at roadmaps. They are not promises they are guidelines to show us what they intend to work on and should be taken as such.

But that makes strictly no sense, as roadmaps are in fact an announcement of what the developers plan to do during the specified time period. Moreover, guidelines themselves are supposed to indicate the broad lines of the product release pipeline, and even that high level of abstraction was incorrect. This is to say nothing of the Empyrean demo, which was in fact an outright lie. If we cannot believe anything the developers say, even as they announce their intent for upcoming content updates, what even is the point of a roadmap in the first place?

[nerfinator6]

9 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Was it not obvious that New Player Experience changes were clearly going to be 2020 changes?

 

2019.

New Player.

Look at the image again.

9 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

 

Just in case you missed it.

[CandyManCriminal]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Don't worry guys i'll work at DE

i also volunteer as tribute

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

De's roadmap was a joke from the beginning. They dont have enough workforce to deliver on what they wanted. I'll say what I've already said before, "most experienced players already know de won't be able to deliver on what the promised with their road map," but it doesnt stop the blow that they keep on promising that update will come out at X time, they promise this, they say that, but at the end everything they say an promise is meaningless until they actually deliver on whatever they are proposing. Which is something they haven't been consistently doing considering the liches was just one big fat lie.

[Vox_Preliator]

ITT:  Justifications for making the development process less transparent, reducing the communication between developer and community, and never actually striving to do more or planning past one year in the future.

Is it really that hard to think "Oh well, plans and priorities can change over the course of a year?"  Or heck, just actually paying attention to the context and notice that you're talking about offhand thoughts in the "hopefully but not necessarily this year" bits?  They also didn't rename Warframes to Javelins, how dare they lie to us!

If you're unable to deal with the idea that not everything in a Devstream is gospel and it's mostly just people talking about plans and ideas, then it's not really anyone's fault but your own when things don't go exactly as said.  These sort of open, conversational, podcast-like discussion streams are one thing that sets them apart from so many other developers, and the last thing I want is for them to be made less than that because they have to be more careful and restrictive about what they say because people get upset about """promises""".

Edited December 29, 2019 by Vox_Preliator

[aligatorno]

2 hours ago, Itsmez said:

Alot of stuff is delayed, but its understandable. After all its f2p game.

Btw did they promise or plan for those things? i would like to see the source

I don't see the correlation between the game being F2P and content being delayed. 

[cmacq]

You guys are not getting it. Roadmaps are not PROMISES. Is that how you live your lives? When people tell you something you take it as a promise? If that's the case you must get disappointed a lot and here we are with the lie thing again. In your lives when you say something you don't deliver on do people also call you liars? That's what you're doing here.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

7 minutes ago, cmacq said:

You guys are not getting it. Roadmaps are not PROMISES. Is that how you live your lives? When people tell you something you take it as a promise? If that's the case you must get disappointed a lot and here we are with the lie thing again. In your lives when you say something you don't deliver on do people also call you liars? That's what you're doing here.

Only one person here said de lied, even I disagree with the whole de lied bs, they took on more than they could with this roadmap they proposed.

Honestly I give up on this whole roadmap bs as more and more people will try to defend this crap I just dont care anymore. Enough of my energy has been wasted.

[Itsmez]

12 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

I don't see the correlation between the game being F2P and content being delayed. 

Yes, what could possible be correlation for it ?